The Education System

[Saint]

What are your thoughts on the education system's ability to encourage students to learn instead of showing what they already know, in other words does it pressure students to show their knowledge instead of gaining more? The old Martin Luther King Jr quote holds true, "knowlege is power." With knowledge one can create thresholds to many keys in life, of course their are many different types of knowledge so the possibilities are literally endless in this case. Is it possible that the education system hammers down too hard on students, with things such as GPA, and class rankings? Many will answer no, because this would induce students to try harder and try to move up in those rankings. It is also true that this can do the opposite. So one is stuck to be in the middle. Can we find a right side? Or are we bound to this cycle? thoughts please

[Fei]

The system is not about education. It's about the evaluation of education. Pure education for its own sake exists (Dream Views for example) but it contributes nothing on whether one is sufficient to perform a certain function. It's not about ranking. It's about good ranking or bad ranking. Our problem is how much one's rank reflects hir parameter to be evaluated. Presently it is not very much, hence our students' misery: to learn or to learn to show-off. A perfect system will make showing-off knowledge the same thing as having the knowledge (cyber-psychic programs, anyone? ). From my personal experience I'd say our ranking technology is heading in the right direction. Patience and you shall see the light.

[Leo Volont]

What are your thoughts on the education system's ability to encourage students to learn instead of showing what they already know, in other words does it pressure students to show their knowledge instead of gaining more? The old Martin Luther King Jr quote holds true, "knowlege is power." With knowledge one can create thresholds to many keys in life, of course their are many different types of knowledge so the possibilities are literally endless in this case. Is it possible that the education system hammers down too hard on students, with things such as GPA, and class rankings? Many will answer no, because this would induce students to try harder and try to move up in those rankings. It is also true that this can do the opposite. So one is stuck to be in the middle. Can we find a right side? Or are we bound to this cycle? thoughts please [/b] Actually there is not ENOUGH attention paid to discerning competive merit. Now, as it works in most Capitalist Societies, Higher Education is mostly reserved for those who can afford it. There are some scholarship and merit grants, and those who would hope to get any of this money need to demonstrate their academic superiority. Without all of the Competive Testing they would be lost and without any hope at all. What should happen is that every academic slot should be offered purely on the basis of Merit, to be paid for by the State. This would make a great good deal of sense in any society with a system of Progressive Taxation, since those with the best educations would subsequently make the higher incomes. So the State assuring that the Best Students go to the Best Schools and Academic Departments would only be making the best of all possible investments. One has to wonder of the Great Stupidity of Government that it has never yet discerned the possibility that people might be a good investment. Of course, the Socialist Countries have long relized this and academic talent is identified early on and nurtured all the way up. But in Capitalist Countries the best schools go to the dumbest, and richest students, as we see that a Yale Education was wasted on that most stupid of Presidents ever elected. But don't worry if you can't do well on tests. The World will always need some cleanup people and unskilled labor. Our concern here should be that every Occupation should receive a Living Wage.

[Howie]

Hey wait....There is No child left behind...remember? It needs reform. Being close to a friend and confidant who is a teacher, there are issues in the end of the problem too. I am really not sure where I stand on the issue of the voucher system. There seems to be so many different aspects. I am too ignorant on the issue to make an educated response. It does seem to point out some of what was said earlier. Accountability like many issues could help. Addressing the students who can't, is the weight on the shoulders.

[Leo Volont]

Hey wait....There is No child left behind...remember? It needs reform. Being close to a friend and confidant who is a teacher, there are issues in the end of the problem too. I am really not sure where I stand on the issue of the voucher system. There seems to be so many different aspects. I am too ignorant on the issue to make an educated response. It does seem to point out some of what was said earlier. Accountability like many issues could help. Addressing the students who can't, is the weight on the shoulders. [/b] The real problem in America is that as the Population has become less educated they had turned more conservative. The Better Educated Blue States tend to vote for the Minority Party. Therefore, what incentive does the Ruling Party have to better educate the Public if, when they become better educated, they vote against the Ruling Party. If stupid people vote for the Ruling Party, then the Ruling Party has a VESTED INTEREST in keeping People Stupid. THAT is America's greatest problem with Education. It goes against their political interest.

[Saint]

What about the pressure to be smart, effecting kids in the way that they wont stand up and ask questions, or admit to their own ignorance? Wouldn't society be better if we told kids that usually, especially in school that questions are alright, and that they actually make you smarter?

[Leo Volont]

What about the pressure to be smart, effecting kids in the way that they wont stand up and ask questions, or admit to their own ignorance? Wouldn't society be better if we told kids that usually, especially in school that questions are alright, and that they actually make you smarter? [/b] Well, it is an unfortunate fact, but asking questions does not make stupid people any more intelligent. In 9 cases out of 10, a stupid person simply does not understand the answer. After all, they did not understand it the first time. Why would complicating the issue with further ramifications make it any easier. Yes, yes, often teachers foist out propaganda such as "There are no stupid questions.... just stupid people"... in order to make the stupid people believe that asking question may actually help them turn around their stupidity. But, no, you are right. The Teachers are only trying to draw these stupid people out into confessing their lack of aptitude. This is how teachers know to whom to give the bad grades to. So, yes, in the Educational System, there are those who grasp the knowledge. And there are people who only get a headache when knowledge is attempted to be drummed into them. But there is really no cause to lament. As we have seen, you can be a virtual Idiot and still become President of the United States. .... OH! and he never asks anybody about anything, does he?

[dreammask]

I think the public education system here in this particular state (and it does vary between individual schools, let alone states), the education system is pretty poor at actually teaching students WHY they should learn what they're learning, which I believe is a huge problem. I know plenty of 20-somethings who now smack their heads and say, "I really wish someone had told me in grade school or high school even that I would need this stuff later in life." I didn't get a real thirst for knowledge until I was in college. My philosophical ponderings did make me want some knowledge beforehand, but not the kind they teach in schools. It's true, in my opinion, that the schools care more about their ranking among schools than they do about educating the students as best they can on their budget. That brings up another issue... the budget. If people want the schools to be better, they have to be willing to pay more tax dollars to do it. If they don't have money, they can't pay really good teachers, they can't buy the newest books, they can't supply their students with computers and all the other technology they need nowadays. What drives me crazy is people who whine about the schools being really bad, but they whine even more when the prospect of tax increases comes up. You can't have it both ways. I don't think the schools, here at least, hammer it into anyone's heads that they should do better. I and my parents had to push to get me into things like honors classes and such. The teachers, counselors, etc couldn't have cared less. The only teacher I had who ever said I was good at something and I should keep doing it... was my drama teacher, and while theatre was a great experience, it didn't help me in my education. It seems like the core class instructors don't care to really push the students... they just want to make their quotas, get their rankings, and keep working on the manufacturing line. No Child Left Behind, while I don't actually know much about it at all, is probably a great idea, but it still has the funding issues. Initiatives like this one really need to go through... the US is falling WAY behind other countries, and if we don't do something about it, US citizens will end up as the world's cheap, dumb labor. It's a scary prospect. I hope it doesn't ever get that far.

[Leo Volont]

I and my parents had to push to get me into things like honors classes and such. The teachers, counselors, etc couldn't have cared less. [/b] Oh, my good friend Dreammask... Well, yes, your parents should care about you. But teachers and counselors probably did not have enough time for the students who DID want to succeed. There is hardly enough time to cultivate WILLING TALENT. Why bother with the naturally sluggish? Our manual laborers have to come from somewhere, no?

[Original Poster]

I was lucky, after failing my freshmen year of highschool I transfered to an alternative school, and though usually they're places where the other schools just dump the delinquentsw this place was actually kind of wary about who they let in, the school was actually designed for the kids that didn't fit the mainstream education's mold of a good student, it was a place for kids that didn't necessarily look good on paper, and it kept them interested in school and learning because the teachers were cool and made jokes and had fun and taught students real issues as opposed to text book curriculum, but stuff that actually matters and that they might find interesting. A lot of the time students who couldn't give two shits started getting interested in things and found out what they wanted to do or to be. It was education as it's supposed to be. And the rumor that teachers smoked pot in class only aided keeping kids going to class. In the college I'm going to I'm in the honors program, and they make it so it's less mold fitting busy work and more self-expressive work... more stuff that challenged the mind... not the hand.

[Fei]

There is hardly enough time to cultivate WILLING TALENT. Why bother with the naturally sluggish? Our manual laborers have to come from somewhere, no?[/b] That's the same thing as the bureaucratical powers dominating the masses. The smart dominating the slow. It will inevitably lead to as disfunctinal a social stratification where no democracy or liberty can exist. One's talents fall into so vast and various categories that the possibility of a person to be truly good-for-nothing approaches zero. The reason of the great numbers ranked low in schools is that their talents may well be undiscovered. If a society would maximise its profit/investment ratio, would it not be a good idea to fully utilise all talents its members pocess? and to respect all occupations in equal measure? Surely manual work should not be linked to personal stupidity; I have met more than one person who is very good at, and enjoy doing, the kind of work most deem repetitive and dehumanising. The distribution of resources based on knowledge is not the solution to our education problems. It is one of the causes. The other is our crude techniques to evaluate knowledge. When both are present, the scolar finds it necessary to spend mental/financial resources to adapt to the evaluation mechanism, rather than to gain further knowledge. In other words, the better our evaluation technique, the better our Distribution-Based-on-Knowledge policy works. From what things are looking today, I'd say the policy has gone far enough to cause misery to many a scolar. On the other hand, the true philo-sopher has to spend hir time training hirself to transcend the social value system, to be able to learn purely for the love of knowledge. Don't you think it would benefit us all if Einstein's early years were spent preparing for his unifying theory rather than being dejected in schools? On the personal level, the true scolar can disregard social values and serve Sophia only. The true oppotunist can play with the defects of the evaluation system like a violin. Anyone in between pick a percentage they are the least miserable with.

[Alric]

I don't believe that at all. Normally the people who ask the questions are the ones who really want to learn something. And if you want to learn something it really doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you can still learn it. I don't know what school you went to but that 9 out of 10 stuff is total bull. I would say, 9 out of 10 times a person asking a question is capable of understanding the question if they have more information. Most of the time asking a question isn't a sign of someone being stupid. Its normally because they didn't get all the information, or they got the information but in a way they couldn't process it right away. Someone with high intelligence may be able to process the information better and so they learn stuff quicker, but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't learn the same thing with slightly more time. That said there are real questions and stupid one, and asking them to repeat the entire thing over again isn't a question at all.

[Howie]

Well since this has gone in so many different directions, why not take it into another (BTW - Alric...I must agree that is a meager point to make, at best.) Incentive. Like California or some other countries, if they made college at least applicable to the middle and lower classes, as far as tuition costs, maybe more people could come up with at least a comprehensive plan for their future. As it stands now, most individuals are stuck.

[Leo Volont]

That's the same thing as the bureaucratical powers dominating the masses. The smart dominating the slow. It will inevitably lead to as disfunctinal a social stratification where no democracy or liberty can exist. [/b] So you are saying that stupid idiots need to be represented to. Well, they got George Bush. So how do you think that is working out? I don't believe that at all. Normally the people who ask the questions are the ones who really want to learn something. [/b] No! The people who really want to learn something have already read the material, they've gone on line already and have read other sources, and they go into class to tell the Professor that he is not covering all of the material. The kids asking the questions are ignorant and lazy, and it is GOOD they ask questions so that the teachers know who to give the lower grades to.

[Leo Volont]

For all of you who suppose asking questions is such a badge for deserving Merit… well, you have forgotten a very important point, and that is that Teachers are the Stupidest Profession. If a student fails to understand the material presented in his books, he is hardly likely to get much help from a ‘Teacher’. But, yes, I know, perhaps having stupid teachers will create a better rapport with the stupid students. Perhaps they can practice by asking each other questions, and they can easily overlook the truth that intelligence does not consist in asking questions but in being able to give the correct answers. But luckily stupid people don’t often think through it that far.

[Original Poster]

You don't seem to understand, asking questions is necessary to gain these correct answers... and half the time we're given tghe wrong answers anyway.

[Alric]

Your assuming they have a decent book leo. The morons heading up the school district are often far worse than any of the teachers and since they decide what goes into books and which ones to order, its very possible to get a text book that is poorly written or even wrong. It sounds like when you went to school you had some horrible teachers. I don't doubt that there are some really bad ones out there. There are good teachers however, ones that actually know what their talking about. The truth is, asking a question is just a form of getting information. Asking a question in and of itself isn't good or bad. If your never going to interact with a teacher then you really don't need one. You should just get all the books yourself and get home schooled. One other thing. Theres no reason you can't ask a question on something related to a subject but that is not covered. If its not in the text book and the teacher hasn't covered it, you can hardly be stupid for not knowing it. You can say you would know it but a little kid might not.

[Howie]

The truth is, asking a question is just a form of getting information. Asking a question in and of itself isn't good or bad. If your never going to interact with a teacher then you really don't need one. You should just get all the books yourself and get home schooled. One other thing. Theres no reason you can't ask a question on something related to a subject but that is not covered. If its not in the text book and the teacher hasn't covered it, you can hardly be stupid for not knowing it. You can say you would know it but a little kid might not. [/b] Have you ever noticed the people who choose to sit in front of the class are always the ones to raise there hands in question? They are the inquisitive type. The ones who want the root of the question to be resolved? Well we know the science books that include Pluto in them are out dated. Why has the blame all of a sudden fallen upon the teachers. Perhaps in many cases they are the issue. I know personally in my school that you could sleep through (literally) and still pass. Our school and it's teachers should be held to some standard, they all should. But if we want to start pointing fingers then let's go back a step further and blame the parents. That is so often the case, upbringing. Curiously I wonder. --Leo. Have, of your almost 3000 some posts, ever asked a question? Although I have not sifted through everyone, I can't find one. Not one where you don't have the answers. Where has this knowledge come from? Books? Who then wrote the books? Apparently not professors or teachers. Or are you just a chosen one that has reached a level of spirituality that gives you all these answers and direction for all of our dream interpretation and political guidance. Why is it that the posts that seem to begin to go astray from "you" are left alone by YOU?

[wombing]

Have you ever noticed the people who choose to sit in front of the class are always the ones to raise there hands in question? They are the inquisitive type. The ones who want the root of the question to be resolved[/b] actually, in my grade nine english class i sat in the front because the teacher sometimes wore a seethrough dress, and would occasionally bend down to pick something up and accidentally display her cleavage... so you are right about the inquisitiveness, but not neccessarily the question-asking.

[dreammask]

Our school and it's teachers should be held to some standard, they all should. But if we want to start pointing fingers then let's go back a step further and blame the parents. That is so often the case, upbringing.[/b] It takes a village to raise a child.

[melanieb]

Please don't resurrect threads that dies 6.5 years ago. Starting a new thread keeps things up to date. **Thread closed**