Thread: US / American Economic Collapse 2013 - American New Great Depression

Actually the stock market is now doing better than ever. The main problem is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. This is because of the decline of small businesses and the rise of large megacorporations. When companies like AIG, GM, Goldman Sachs, and Ford become too big to fail they gain the ability to break the law. This is where all the bad things start happening. What we need to do is stop companies from getting too big to fail. To encourage economic growth and to shorten the gap inbetween the rich class and the poor class we need to see a rise in small businesses. People need to stop working for a big corporation and create their own businesses.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

We have to change more than politics to prevent economic collapse. Without a total cultural revolution we will eventually hit one, the consumer culture cannot be sustained indefinitely.

What kind of culture do you think we should have?

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

Actually the stock market is now doing better than ever. The main problem is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. This is because of the decline of small businesses and the rise of large megacorporations. When companies like AIG, GM, Goldman Sachs, and Ford become too big to fail they gain the ability to break the law. This is where all the bad things start happening. What we need to do is stop companies from getting too big to fail. To encourage economic growth and to shorten the gap inbetween the rich class and the poor class we need to see a rise in small businesses. People need to stop working for a big corporation and create their own businesses.

The stock market is doing better than ever? Do you have a link on that?

The gap between rich and poor is irrelevant. If everybody got richer although the rich got richer by the highest percentage, it would be a good thing for everybody. The government is way too nosy and involved in everybody's business. That is the problem. An economy is fueled by the buying of products. The government needs to stop doing things which stifle that. Large corporations hire zillions of people and give promotions to zillions of people. Those people spend lots of money and often start businesses of their own, so corporations are not the problem. They are one of our economy's greatest assets.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

We have to change more than politics to prevent economic collapse. Without a total cultural revolution we will eventually hit one, the consumer culture cannot be sustained indefinitely.

Funny, I have the opposite view. I think that if people would only take their consumerism to government itself (ie. voting based on rational self interest rather than indoctrination), then the world would be a much better place. Of course, if people voted based on rational self interest then the government would quickly fizzle into nothingness.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What kind of culture do you think we should have?

A free society rather than one where individuals are told they are free because they have the freedom to buy anything that they want. And I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to buy what they want. What I'm saying is that this shouldn't be seen as the highest good. We need to create a culture where one's actions are valued over one's possessions.

I think we need to go back to the enlightenment idea of freedom, except extend it to women and people who aren't caucasian.

Originally Posted by cmind

Funny, I have the opposite view. I think that if people would only take their consumerism to government itself (ie. voting based on rational self interest rather than indoctrination), then the world would be a much better place. Of course, if people voted based on rational self interest then the government would quickly fizzle into nothingness.

I don't see the consumer culture being rational whatsoever. People are not acting out of rational self interest. The are buying things because of desires which are primarily the result of our culture. These things may even make these people happy, but it is certainly not a rational situation.

And the welfare state is a direct result of similar things happening in politics. Certain people feel good about something so they vote for some government program. It's not that they have really thought out a plan and this program is really solving that issue. This kind of thing is impossible to do at such a high level.

We've created a culture we're happiness is one of the greatest evils. Obviously, it's not inherently evil, but when it's seen as a goal it is very easy to manipulate people. People should feel how they feel, yet they think they should be happy. They should be normal. They should be a good person. This makes them repress their true feelings and they are unable to act rationally because their most basic sense of self is false.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

We've created a culture we're happiness is one of the greatest evils. Obviously, it's not inherently evil, but when it's seen as a goal it is very easy to manipulate people. People should feel how they feel, yet they think they should be happy. They should be normal. They should be a good person. This makes them repress their true feelings and they are unable to act rationally because their most basic sense of self is false.

This is why these days I just can't get politically charged. I don't think it matters who we vote anymore or even which policies we push. So long as the American people are obsessed with consumerism then nothing changes.

The housing market has gained a lot of attention and some people even blame it entirely for our economic situation (2008 crash). But no policies can fix the housing market when Americans WANT to buy the largest house possible and are deluded into thinking that a lifetime mortgage is a status symbol.

And the American appetite really is insatiable creating a myriad of after effects. The want of suburbia creates the want of the car, which creates the need for streets, driveways, garages, mega highways, mega sunburning parking lots and everyone's favorite - gas. Not to mention maintenance and what the hell do you do with those tires after?

Its a huge problem, environmentally but also economically. Suburbia only exists because of cheap gas. What will happen to millions of Americans when gas is so expensive their 45min drive to work no longer makes economic sense? (not that it makes sense now)

I mean, gas prices are going up now but texans are still buying trucks, suvs and mustangs.

At the end of the day if America enters a great depression I just can't feel sorry for us, seriously people have been warning us for years.

The only group im really empathic about are all the high school graduates going straight into college

Oh and I forgot to mention, I actually don't believe in the doomsday prophesies of a next great depression. No, I believe in something more horrifying - America (and the rest of the world) will rot. Just a slow, painful, gnawing ceaseless rot.

When gases prices go up and your dollars aren't enough, rather than taking to the streets and protesting we'll just be conned into working longer hours. Maybe 40 years from now people will have 7 day work weeks with the 7th being a half day, and that will be considered the new norm for a working mature adult. Why not? Were already conned. All we need are bright flashy lights when we come home to brain wash us into wage slavery, and the whole world goes round.




Oh, and yes the oil exists to keep us fueling for years and years and years and years to come, beyond our life times actually. Don't look forward for the end of oil to burst our bubbles and to change the world. Until we change, we will continue to resource the oil.

However, the oil that remains spells horrific ecological disasters and war. The Amazon will be ripped apart and the sovereignty of latin and indigenous nations will be trampled on. The oceans will be siphoned and spilled, and canada will be a mud slide. And the great part is, it'll all happen outside American soil. This means the media can hide all the evils of our desires, and the American population will just let it happen. Just like right now! Seriously, people have already died from drinking tampered water. The media will lie and tell you they drank dirty water because they were poor. What they won't tell you was the water was dirty because of oil production being used by americans.

See the problem with the great depression doomsday as it starts to become a way out. Where you begin to feel you can just wait for the collapse and then facilitate the necessary changes. But based on our actions thats not where we are headed. We are in a slow decaying rot.

The only event that could rewrite the way we live is the simultaneously flooding of coastal cities when Antarctica melts. But that event doesn't just mark coastal dwellers losing their home and moving inland. It also means that drinking water from glacial ice is over. The amount of drinking water given to us by glacial ice is phenomenal - id say easily half the human population depends on it. Experts mark this doomsday prophesy at around 2050 based on glacial melting ice rates. You'll be old, you won't have your youth to save you.

Anyways, were just rotting

^ Ffffuuuuuuuuuu......

Sadly this is pretty much what I think too. At least a depression would be a change from - this.

Originally Posted by juroara

This is why these days I just can't get politically charged. I don't think it matters who we vote anymore or even which policies we push. So long as the American people are obsessed with consumerism then nothing changes.

The housing market has gained a lot of attention and some people even blame it entirely for our economic situation (2008 crash). But no policies can fix the housing market when Americans WANT to buy the largest house possible and are deluded into thinking that a lifetime mortgage is a status symbol.

And the American appetite really is insatiable creating a myriad of after effects. The want of suburbia creates the want of the car, which creates the need for streets, driveways, garages, mega highways, mega sunburning parking lots and everyone's favorite - gas. Not to mention maintenance and what the hell do you do with those tires after?

Its a huge problem, environmentally but also economically. Suburbia only exists because of cheap gas. What will happen to millions of Americans when gas is so expensive their 45min drive to work no longer makes economic sense? (not that it makes sense now)

I mean, gas prices are going up now but texans are still buying trucks, suvs and mustangs.

At the end of the day if America enters a great depression I just can't feel sorry for us, seriously people have been warning us for years.

The only group im really empathic about are all the high school graduates going straight into college

Reason why i stay in my city and not in suburbs, i rent an apartment and use public trans. I know living costs are high now, but i am not living in the damn suburbs where people are stuck ups, been there done it.

Originally Posted by juroara

Oh and I forgot to mention, I actually don't believe in the doomsday prophesies of a next great depression. No, I believe in something more horrifying - America (and the rest of the world) will rot. Just a slow, painful, gnawing ceaseless rot.

When gases prices go up and your dollars aren't enough, rather than taking to the streets and protesting we'll just be conned into working longer hours. Maybe 40 years from now people will have 7 day work weeks with the 7th being a half day, and that will be considered the new norm for a working mature adult. Why not? Were already conned. All we need are bright flashy lights when we come home to brain wash us into wage slavery, and the whole world goes round.
Experts mark this doomsday prophesy at around 2050 based on glacial melting ice rates. You'll be old, you won't have your youth to save you.

Anyways, were just rotting

Or not even HAVE a job period, which jobs are scarce now and in the future.
2050 i would start my retirement lol 67.

The stock market is doing better than ever? Do you have a link on that?

https://www.google.com/finance?q=IND...UaC2IojC0AH9Gw

yes, the stock market can be easily measured most popularly by using something called the Dow Jones industrial average, Investing 101 here. See how its around 14,000 points? thats AROUND the highest it's ever been. (not the actual highest, in case you're dense enough to actually try to point me out on that)

ITS SO EASY TO SEE THE PROOF TOO!

take that meter at the bottom and take it all the way to the end to see how the stock market has done over time. You can see the Recession in 2008 and how it has climbed back up since then. Isn't it great when you can finally use graphs and charts to prove people wrong? So refreshing from debating an ignorant christian.

Heres another one showing the CEO to worker pay by country. This should show some proof of the gap between the rich and poor, and how it has increased over the decades

http://www.verisi.com/resources/us-ceo-compensation.htm

Gee I sure do love evidence and research.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What kind of culture do you think we should have?



The stock market is doing better than ever? Do you have a link on that?

The gap between rich and poor is irrelevant. If everybody got richer although the rich got richer by the highest percentage, it would be a good thing for everybody. The government is way too nosy and involved in everybody's business. That is the problem. An economy is fueled by the buying of products. The government needs to stop doing things which stifle that. Large corporations hire zillions of people and give promotions to zillions of people. Those people spend lots of money and often start businesses of their own, so corporations are not the problem. They are one of our economy's greatest assets.

See my above post, I forgot to quote you correctly.

Also, no you are also wrong about another thing. When the rich get rich enough they save all their money in bank accounts for years if not decades. Eventually it gets dispersed to their kids so they never have to work a day in their life.

Although I am being quite the hypocrite here, I am going into Finance hehehhe. If you can't beat em, join em. ;D

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

When companies like AIG, GM, Goldman Sachs, and Ford become too big to fail they gain the ability to break the law. This is where all the bad things start happening. What we need to do is stop companies from getting too big to fail.

This is why a lot of larger corporations are shuffling around and merging right now, because they found out about the "too big to fail" loophole. Until these assholes start getting prosecuted for their crimes instead of being given a pass (because of the T.B.T.F status), things are going to keep sliding downhill.

LOL! it just keeps on getting more hilarious, I've never seen anyone been more wrong in my entire life than Universal Mind.

Each day for the past 4 days have been the highest the stock market has ever gone

Stocks end 2nd best week of 2013 - Mar. 8, 2013

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

LOL! it just keeps on getting more hilarious, I've never seen anyone been more wrong in my entire life than Universal Mind.

Each day for the past 4 days have been the highest the stock market has ever gone

Stocks end 2nd best week of 2013 - Mar. 8, 2013

Now take inflation into account.

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

The stock market is doing better than ever? Do you have a link on that?

https://www.google.com/finance?q=IND...UaC2IojC0AH9Gw

yes, the stock market can be easily measured most popularly by using something called the Dow Jones industrial average, Investing 101 here. See how its around 14,000 points? thats AROUND the highest it's ever been. (not the actual highest, in case you're dense enough to actually try to point me out on that)

ITS SO EASY TO SEE THE PROOF TOO!

take that meter at the bottom and take it all the way to the end to see how the stock market has done over time. You can see the Recession in 2008 and how it has climbed back up since then. Isn't it great when you can finally use graphs and charts to prove people wrong? So refreshing from debating an ignorant christian.

Heres another one showing the CEO to worker pay by country. This should show some proof of the gap between the rich and poor, and how it has increased over the decades

CEO Compensation: US and other countries

Gee I sure do love evidence and research.

Well, I'm glad you've discovered evidence and research. As cmind pointed out, there is an inflation issue to take into consideration. There are also other factors to think about, such as the unemployment rate. What is it these days? Some of the factors that led to the recession have been cleaned up, and that is helping some. The ridiculous loan standards aren't what they were, for example.

What is the relevance of the gap between the rich and the poor? Are you upset that the successful are too successful? The gap says nothing about the living conditions of our poor. Having such rich people is what allows us to have such relatively rich poor people. If we could implement a policy that would make all Americans richer, but the rich get richer by the highest percentage, would you be against it?

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

See my above post, I forgot to quote you correctly.

Also, no you are also wrong about another thing. When the rich get rich enough they save all their money in bank accounts for years if not decades. Eventually it gets dispersed to their kids so they never have to work a day in their life.

The rich never spend money? Ha ha, that's hilarious. Drive through a rich neighborhood some time. Look at the luxuries they have. Then come back here and tell me with even more passion that the rich don't spend money. The rich are tight compared to everybody else in terms of percentage of income, but they still spend more than everybody else. The more money they have, the more they spend. The health of an economy depends on rich people spending money. Some of them will have kids who never work, but most will not. Even in such cases, the kids spend lots of money. The spending of money is what makes an economy function. Did you know that?

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

Although I am being quite the hypocrite here, I am going into Finance hehehhe. If you can't beat em, join em. ;D

Why are you doing that? Won't making yourself and others richer make poor people poorer?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Well, I'm glad you've discovered evidence and research. As cmind pointed out, there is an inflation issue to take into consideration. There are also other factors to think about, such as the unemployment rate. What is it these days? Some of the factors that led to the recession have been cleaned up, and that is helping some. The ridiculous loan standards aren't what they were, for example.

What is the relevance of the gap between the rich and the poor? Are you upset that the successful are too successful? The gap says nothing about the living conditions of our poor. Having such rich people is what allows us to have such relatively rich poor people. If we could implement a policy that would make all Americans richer, but the rich get richer by the highest percentage, would you be against it?





The rich never spend money? Ha ha, that's hilarious. Drive through a rich neighborhood some time. Look at the luxuries they have. Then come back here and tell me with even more passion that the rich don't spend money. The rich are tight compared to everybody else in terms of percentage of income, but they still spend more than everybody else. The more money they have, the more they spend. The health of an economy depends on rich people spending money. Some of them will have kids who never work, but most will not. Even in such cases, the kids spend lots of money. The spending of money is what makes an economy function. Did you know that?



Why are you doing that? Won't making yourself and others richer make poor people poorer?

you just don't know when to stop embarrassing yourself do you?

first of all you don't provide evidence for any of your claims, you're just grasping at straws trying to defend your insane claims.

United States Inflation Rate

this is the rate of inflation and it has stayed at a constant average of 3.5%, what you see here is nothing out of the ordinary. In fact, if you look right after 2008 inflation went down considerably.

and about the rich spending money, they don't spend as much money as would be dispersed evenly. Rich billionaires maybe buy 4-5 expensive cars, not 4-5 thousand cars. the difference in quantity is enormous, and the total amount means much more money is saved and much less money is left circulating in the market. Take a few economics lessons so you don't make yourself look like a total fool.

And also no, once I do become rich I plan to fix this problem

ALSO: that video is just two british people yelling at each other with no relation to any real problems. Claiming that the poor get poorer just because the rich get poorer depends completely on a number of different situations. There are many, MANY situations in which that statement can be true OR false. Basically what that video is is just two people who know nothing yelling at each other and using ethos (an appeal to emotion) to try to get everyone else that knows nothing about the situation to agree with them. That sort of government always leads to failure.

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

you just don't know when to stop embarrassing yourself do you?

first of all you don't provide evidence for any of your claims, you're just grasping at straws trying to defend your insane claims.

I use logic, and you can't counter it.

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

United States Inflation Rate

this is the rate of inflation and it has stayed at a constant average of 3.5%, what you see here is nothing out of the ordinary.

I didn't say it has changed. I said that it needs to be taken into account. Notice that the inflation rate is not 0%. It therefore needs to be taken into account when judging the relative nature of our current economy by the current state of the stock market. Do you understand? Now tell me about the current unemployment rate and how it compares.

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

and about the rich spending money, they don't spend as much money as would be dispersed evenly. Rich billionaires maybe buy 4-5 expensive cars, not 4-5 thousand cars. the difference in quantity is enormous, and the total amount means much more money is saved and much less money is left circulating in the market. Take a few economics lessons so you don't make yourself look like a total fool.

When the rich are taxed more, they spend less. The fact that they hoard money at a higher percentage than others does not mean their spending doesn't do a great deal of good for the economy. If you take away more of their hoarded money, they will spend less money and expand business less. If you take too much more, they will start laying people off and closing their businesses. I know you hate success, but we need people going after it passionately for the economy to function well.

Try getting your economics information from sources other than left wing lunatic sites and networks. You will understand much better how money really works when you are an adult.

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

And also no, once I do become rich I plan to fix this problem

Ha ha, wow... You are going to work in finance and make it where it is no longer the case that getting richer means making poor people poorer? You never explained how wealth causes poverty in the first place, but now I am especially curious about how you plan to change the principle that you think exists. Please explain the big picture. I am really fascinated.

Saving money =/= hoarding money. When you put your money in the bank, do you think it sits in a little drawer somewhere? No, the bank invests it. In today's economy, there is literally almost no possible way to "hoard" money even if you wanted to. You'd would have to quite literally stuff it in a mattress.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Ha ha, wow... You are going to work in finance and make it where it is no longer the case that getting richer means making poor people poorer? You never explained how wealth causes poverty in the first place, but now I am especially curious about how you plan to change the principle that you think exists. Please explain the big picture. I am really fascinated.

The big picture? I think we've heard plenty of big picture stuff from the lefties. I'd like to hear little picture, as in, specifically what reason and evidence they have to back up their platitudes?

Originally Posted by CloudlessSky

United States Inflation Rate

this is the rate of inflation and it has stayed at a constant average of 3.5%, what you see here is nothing out of the ordinary. In fact, if you look right after 2008 inflation went down considerably.

You're saying that a constant rate of inflation means that we don't have to adjust for inflation?

And you say you want to go into... finance?

Originally Posted by cmind

Saving money =/= hoarding money. When you put your money in the bank, do you think it sits in a little drawer somewhere? No, the bank invests it. In today's economy, there is literally almost no possible way to "hoard" money even if you wanted to. You'd would have to quite literally stuff it in a mattress.

It is "hoarding" in the sense that some of the money is in permanent storage, from the standpoint of the owner. It is true that it can be used by a bank in that time, but it's just a number in a computer for the person who owns it. I used the word because that is basically how CloudlessSky characterized the situation. I wanted him to concentrate on the spending issue, so I didn't get into the fact that some interest can accrue from savings. CloudlessSky sees that as just a slight growth in the hoarded pile. What I think is really relevant is that the piles of money are things the owners of them love and work hard for. It is a big part of what drives the rich. An economy needs drive, and an economy needs rich people.

Originally Posted by cmind

The big picture? I think we've heard plenty of big picture stuff from the lefties. I'd like to hear little picture, as in, specifically what reason and evidence they have to back up their platitudes?

I would like to know that too, but I haven't even heard a general explanation of how wealth causes poverty yet. Nobody ever explains it. Then I want to know how CloudlessSky is going to use his finance job to change that principle. I can get into finer details later. For now, I just want to know the basic answers.