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    1. #26
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      I'm not saying it's the same thing, I'm saying that just because lack of regulation of something may cause less crime as a result of the business surrounding it doesn't mean it's right. And I called you bloodthirsty because of your desire to attempt to take another human being's life (and in doing so risk your own), not because you think you should be able to own a gun. I completely respect your right to throw away your own life in defense of your stuff. I just don't think it's very smart. You've clearly never been robbed at gunpoint if you think it's a good idea to attack someone who's shoving a gun in your face.
      Last edited by FriendlyFace; 04-29-2013 at 02:04 AM.

    2. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      Are you aware that in general firearms that are acquired illegally started out by being sold legally (inside the US) to the wrong people? If guns were banned, there is no doubt that criminals would have a much harder time getting their hands on them.
      Not really. That's like saying crack would be harder to obtain if it was banned but...

      The problem is that those guns were sold to the wrong people in the first place.

      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      nor did I feel physically threatened as I know that a burglar isn't at all likely to hurt you unless you fuck with them
      That must be a really nice city to live in.

      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      Stop comparing guns to drugs.
      Why? It's a valid point. Both are very highly sought after commodities that have proven to be a huge boon on the black market.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Guns would have to be bought by street criminals? Do they have to buy them? Perhaps it would be harder for them to buy them if they couldn't obtain them from any gun-show parking lot where there is no trace of the sale.
      Living in a city where daylight executions on busy streets aren't a surprise and gang wars are a seasonal thing, I have to disagree. Gun and drugs are very easy to come buy. Especially in cities where gangs are a problem. You can't buy crack, sherm, etc in shops, but nearly every single kid knows how and where to get it. It's very easily smuggled in through ports and across the continent. There's absolutely no reason why banning guns altogether, or even just assault rifles, would change that. If anything, it'd cause a huge boon in the black market.

      There's a certain degree of regulation that's sensible, but that doesn't mean banning certain types of guns (which is sfgssgfssfas-worthy, all things considered). The shops need to be regulated. Jon Stewart did a segment on this a little while back that covered the utter failings of the current "safety net" behind weapons sales and enforcement. I'd post a video but I can't find it. That needs to be fixed, drug prohibition needs to end (Portugal has proven that the decriminalization of ALL drugs for personal use works), and America needs to do MUCH more in regards to mental health.

      Those three areas of concern need to be addressed before even thinking of banning guns.
      Last edited by GavinGill; 04-29-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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    3. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      That must be a really nice city to live in.
      So in your town the burglars are all murderers? I'm from Baltimore, friend. Yeah it's a nice city to live in, but I can guarantee you it's a lot more dangerous than pretty much anywhere in Canada. You're lucky if your gang wars are seasonal. In a dangerous place you learn not to fuck with the guy with the gun, because if you do you get shot. He's got no reason to shoot you otherwise, and I know that from experience. This is a case where acting on your fear by trying to "defend yourself" (attacking someone who's just going for an honest robbery) will actually get you killed. I'll say again, I don't have a problem with you thinking it's a good idea, I just think it's a very silly risk to take.

      And by the way, crack is harder to obtain because it's banned. Especially the good stuff. You're honestly telling me that it wouldn't be easier (and cheaper) if you could just buy it in a store? Or grow coca plants in your front yard, extract some nice, pure cocaine and make big piles of crack in your oven (a waste of good coke if you ask me, but you get it)? I know the problem is that the guns are sold to the wrong people, that's the point I was trying to make. If the guns aren't sold to any people, then they aren't being sold to the wrong people, and therefore the black market suffers. While I know this, as I said before I don't support a gun ban. Just heavy regulation.
      Last edited by FriendlyFace; 04-29-2013 at 03:30 AM.

    4. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      I'm not saying it's the same thing, I'm saying that just because lack of regulation of something may cause less crime as a result of the business surrounding it doesn't mean it's right. And I called you bloodthirsty because of your desire to attempt to take another human being's life (and in doing so risk your own), not because you think you should be able to own a gun. I completely respect your right to throw away your own life in defense of your stuff. I just don't think it's very smart. You've clearly never been robbed at gunpoint if you think it's a good idea to attack someone who's shoving a gun in your face.
      It's a good idea to shoot somebody who has broken into your house, if you can do it. If a person breaks into your house, that person is likely to shoot you if he sees you. If there are any females in the house, he very well might be there to rape them. Also, the point isn't all about shooting the intruder. It is also about making the intruder afraid to break into your house in the first place. Like I said, neighborhoods in my area do not have a problem with burglary because there are more guns than people out here. Criminals are terrified of robbing this area. In the art district of Jackson, people in large numbers put themselves out there as anti-gun and get their asses robbed blind. They sometimes get raped, and they sometimes get killed. People are afraid to walk the streets at night. Doesn't that tell you something?

      My brother was help up at gun point in Belhaven. I don't think he should have pulled a Clint Eastwood move in that situation, but I do wish he had been living in a neighborhood where thugs are scared to rob people. If Belhaven were a neighborhood known for having gun lovers for residents, it would be a much safer neighborhood.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Guns would have to be bought by street criminals? Do they have to buy them? Perhaps it would be harder for them to buy them if they couldn't obtain them from any gun-show parking lot where there is no trace of the sale.
      They would be buying them like crazy. Making something harder is not necessarily enough to make it not happen. It's not hard any way. Guns are bought on the streets all the time now even though guns are legal. Do you think that making guns illegal will make them suddenly stop being brought to the streets? It hasn't worked with drugs. Why would it work with guns?

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Why would good people go to jail? It's unlikely anyone would ever come to your door demanding your gun, and if they did and you fought the people using your gun it would automatically turn you into a bad person.
      They would go to jail for possessing illegal items. People don't deserve to go to jail for having guns to protect themselves. Do you know any good people who have gone to jail for drug possession? It's a major injustice. Jail should be for victimizers only.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 04-29-2013 at 06:34 AM.
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    5. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      This is a case where acting on your fear by trying to "defend yourself" (attacking someone who's just going for an honest robbery) will actually get you killed. I'll say again, I don't have a problem with you thinking it's a good idea, I just think it's a very silly risk to take.
      I don't own a gun, nor do I ever want one in my home. But to say that you don't have to worry about someone who's "just going for an honest robbery" is beyond ridiculous. Violent home invasions are a thing.

      Man wounded in violent home invasion : Vancouver & B.C. : Video
      New Westminster man in hospital after violent home invasion
      4 suspects charged in violent Oshawa home invasion | Globalnews.ca
      Police hunt for three suspects after violent home invasion in Windsor | CTV Kitchener News

      Justin Derek Rao sentenced to 12 years forgang-rape-of-woman-during-b-c-home-invasion/


      These aren't isolated incidents, they happen frequently. I doubt that girl was gang raped in front of her family because she "took a silly risk [by attacking the burglars]." Sure, it's usually best to simply comply when someone breaks into your home, chances are they'll leave you alone. But usually ≠ always. If someone decides to keep a firearm in their home to protect themselves from violent home invasions, it's not just a "silly risk to take." Being physically/sexually attacked by intruders is a very valid concern many people share.

      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      And by the way, crack is harder to obtain because it's banned. Especially the good stuff. You're honestly telling me that it wouldn't be easier (and cheaper) if you could just buy it in a store? Or grow coca plants in your front yard, extract some nice, pure cocaine and make big piles of crack in your oven (a waste of good coke if you ask me, but you get it)?
      If crack was decriminalized, addicts would receive the medical attention they need instead of simply being locked in a prison (where drugs are even more readily available). Portugal can attest to that - hard drug use dropped dramatically ever since they decriminalized all substances for personal use. That coupled with proper drug education (as opposed to what we have now in North America - blatant lies and exaggerations), would lead to less social stigma being attached to people with drug addictions, far better treatment programs, less experimentation with hard drugs, etc. Decriminalization of crack would also cut the price a fair bit (drug prices are set based on demand for the substance and the risk factor of their sale) - the lowered profit margin would mean less incentive to go into that trade. So when you factor all of that in, crack sales would definitely dry up a fair bit.

      As for the "crack is harder is harder to obtain because it's banned" part... Study Says It’s Easier For Teens To Buy Marijuana Than Beer | NORML Blog, Marijuana Law Reform

      That study mentions marijuana, but the same can be said of crack, sherm, meth, etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFace View Post
      I know the problem is that the guns are sold to the wrong people, that's the point I was trying to make. If the guns aren't sold to any people, then they aren't being sold to the wrong people, and therefore the black market suffers.
      Except that's not how the black market works... You can't stop guns from being sold to everyone. There are millions upon millions of guns available world-wide, and many would simply be shipped to America if you were to somehow eliminate all US-owned firearms (which is impossible considering the number that are currently in circulation). That doesn't weaken the black market in any way whatsoever; it just intensifies competitiveness in that trade - inevitably bolstering the underground market.
      Last edited by GavinGill; 04-29-2013 at 12:41 PM.
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    6. #31
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      That study only applies to teenagers. For anyone else, crack would be much easier to get if you could buy it in a store. And by the way, I'm not for drug prohibition. I hate dealing with the people that I do in order to get my drugs. I would much prefer that they were easier to buy. Which, if they were in a store, they would be. I don't think that's an arguable point (unless you are, as you said, a teenager, although I personally never had any problems buying booze as a teen). Anyway, I think I'm done here. I was only sharing how I've stayed alive through multiple home invasions and armed robberies. I will continue to do what has kept me safe. As I've said many times, I don't care how you handle the situation. I don't understand why my indifference to your actions incites so much aggression from you people.

    7. #32
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      Aggressive? We were just disagreeing with you and telling you why. This is a discussion forum.

      In your post, you said that you had no trouble getting booze although it was illegal for you to buy it. You also said that you buy illegal drugs now. The bans did not stop you. Although getting the other drugs is harder for you, you still get them. That is case in point of the fact that making something harder to get is not the same as making you not get it. They are two different things. That is how guns on the streets will work if guns are made illegal. People who want to buy and sell guns on the streets are going to continue to do so even if you throw them some bumps in the road. With that being the case, I deserve a shot at defending myself and adding to their fear of robbing and raping people.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    8. #33
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      Believe me, I would smoke a lot more weed if it were cheaply and easily bought in a store or grown in my garden. I'd keep other drug use at a minimum for my health, but I'd be smoking probably a quarter ounce of hash a day. Obviously prohibition doesn't keep me from buying drugs, but it does limit their availability and jack up the prices, thus making them harder to get.

      In response to your post below, you roll the dice anytime you get into a fight with a deadly weapon.

      When you start disagreeing with someone's experience because of your own beliefs, I think that's a bit aggressive. Seriously, do you think I'm lying to you about what's worked for me? Some of you seem to think that if I had introduced violence to the situation, there would have been a better outcome. I know for a fact that if I had done anything differently I would have been killed at least twice already. I've stayed alive all these years. You can't disagree with that. I'll say for the last time, you do what you want. Good day.
      Last edited by FriendlyFace; 04-29-2013 at 03:03 PM.

    9. #34
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      I didn't say you did anything wrong. I just think you would have been safer if you were living in a known gun lover neighborhood and that killing the scum bag would have made you, your roommates (if you had any), and your property safer... if you killed him. I think you deserved at least the chance to do that. If you had females in the house, they were in danger of being raped for all you knew at the time. Also, some rapists are gay. I don't want to roll those dice. If you do, I understand.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    10. #35
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      I've posted a couple articles here. It's not required reading but they do make good points in the discussion.

      I would appreciate it if [you, collectively] read them.

      I liked reading this story. It helps convey the messages I have been trying to express.

      Spoiler for Do Guns Make Us Safer?:



      Another good article that cites sources

      Spoiler for The Self-Defense Self-Delusion:

    11. #36
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      Those articles miss the boat for the most part, but one does address a supposed increase in gun violence as a result of concealed-carry permits. The reality's I know go counter to that claim, so I am extremely skeptical. Also, what other factors changed? Did rapes go down? Did the killing of scum go up? Did robberies go down? Do people feel safer in their homes? I explained the Belhaven vs. Barnett Bend situation in the Jackson area. Here is another situation that hasn't been explained away.

      Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia --- Crime Rate Plummets

      Remember that it's not all about each person being safer with a gun in a vacuum. It's about a gun owning population making people not want to screw with the population in the first place. I am talking about robbery and violence that never happen in the first place because of deterrent. On top of that, no matter what the success rate is for people with guns, every innocent person deserves the chance to defend himself, even if his odds are 1 to 1 trillion. He still deserves the chance if he wants to use it. I know what to do with a gun, and I am not typical Joe gun fail man. I deserve my chance no matter how bad the next person sucks with a gun. My father caught a burglar with a gun a long time ago, and the piece of shit was put in a cage where he belonged. Some people can do that, and our right to try should not be taken away. The piece of shit is going to have a gun, so it is completely unfair to try to take away mine.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    12. #37
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      I'm only passively following this thread, but I was shown a study done by two criminologists on banning guns and reducing murder and suicide rates a while back. Seems reasonable, so I figured I'd put it here.

      http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf
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      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    13. #38
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
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      I can't get copy and paste to work right with that for some reason, so I will just announce that the conclusion starts on the second to last page.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    14. #39
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      I don't agree with Ann Coulter on everything, but she hits some nails on their heads here. This is good stuff.

      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

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