• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Results 1 to 15 of 15
    Like Tree5Likes
    • 1 Post By juroara
    • 1 Post By gab
    • 1 Post By Original Poster
    • 2 Post By Original Poster

    Thread: March Against Monsanto!

    1. #1
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144

      March Against Monsanto!

      --Is this saturday! Who's going?

      March Against Monsanto

      Food is personal. Millions enjoy and willfully eat junk food. So I don't think a march against GMO seeds because they aren't healthy will be all that popular in America.

      But I think every American can identify with the insanity of farmers (or anyone) not being able to save their own damn seeds!
      gab likes this.

    2. #2
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      You'd be surprised, Monsanto is of the most hated corporations on the planet.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    3. #3
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      lol! I hope so!

      Today at work I told one of my co-workers "I'm gonna march against monsanto on saturday!" and she looked at me confused and said "who's monsanto?"

      Sigh

    4. #4
      gab
      USA gab is offline
      Administrator Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Stickie King 25000 Hall Points Populated Wall Huge Dream Journal Referrer Silver Tagger First Class 10000 Hall Points
      gab's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      306 events
      Gender
      Location
      California Republic
      Posts
      9,575
      Likes
      10556
      DJ Entries
      783
      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      ...and she looked at me confused and said "who's monsanto?"
      Educate.

    5. #5
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,246
      Likes
      831
      Norman Borlaug rolls in his grave when self-righteous food patriots pull stunts like these.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    6. #6
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Norman Borlaug rolls in his grave when self-righteous food patriots pull stunts like these.
      Well there you have it

      Just another great example of how ignorant people are about Monsanto. Just another reason to go

    7. #7
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,246
      Likes
      831
      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      Well there you have it

      Just another great example of how ignorant people are about Monsanto. Just another reason to go
      Not quite ignorant, just scornful of people who are proudly misinformed about GM food. I don't know why, out of all the possible misdeeds Monsanto is responsible for, you guys decide to attack something out of the handful of things it makes absolutely no sense to hate them for.

      Also, did I say food patriots? I meant food Nazis.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    8. #8
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Not quite ignorant, just scornful of people who are proudly misinformed about GM food. I don't know why, out of all the possible misdeeds Monsanto is responsible for, you guys decide to attack something out of the handful of things it makes absolutely no sense to hate them for.

      Also, did I say food patriots? I meant food Nazis.
      Whether or not GMOs is a great food product there are a lot of issues regarding GMOs (which might be more specific to the US)

      One, we don't have GMO food labeling in the states. People have a right to know what they are eating and also the right to choose what to eat. From what I understand, Europe has this labeling.

      Two, GMOs can't be controlled. Whether its pollen carried in the wind or bees cross-pollinating fields, GMOs end up in organic nonGMO fields by completely natural processes. They also end up in the wild. The problem here is once a seed has those genetically modified monsanto genes - its now the intellectual property of monsanto.

      Over night a farmer - who did not purchase monsanto seeds- suddenly has a field that's copyrighted to monsanto.

      Heirloom seeds that mix with monsantos seeds - by natural processes - are also copyrighted to monsanto. Both farmers and seed banks have had to close up shop because of legal pressure by monsanto.

      Monsanto has shown that they aren't just interested in soy or corn. They have their eyes on 100's or even 1000's of species. Considering how they have treated farmers, this is extremely concerning for food security.

      In short, its impossible to separate Monsantos GMOs with their business practice. That said, there is a lot of scientific data out there showing that GMOs are not the miracle product Monsanto promised.

    9. #9
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Not quite ignorant, just scornful of people who are proudly misinformed about GM food. I don't know why, out of all the possible misdeeds Monsanto is responsible for, you guys decide to attack something out of the handful of things it makes absolutely no sense to hate them for.

      Also, did I say food patriots? I meant food Nazis.
      No, you're ignorant.

      You realize that Monsanto is trying to copy-right natural DNA sequences, not just genetically altered ones. They have bribed congress into making them untouchable so they can do whatever they want without getting sued. They have sued farmers because wind has carried their seeds and infected other peoples farms, which they call theft. They have caused some extraordinary amount of farmers in India to commit suicide because Monsanto makes it too expensive for the average family farm (due to having to rebuy seeds every year) their pesticides have been directly linked to driving bees to extinction (meaning they're threatening the whole fucking ecosphere), and they've been buying the studies and burying them for decades, so they've known this to be true. They've known they're driving people to commit suicide, and trying to disrupt the ecosystem, and they've given zero fucks. They shouldn't just be penalized, their entire board should be lined up and shot. You can call me a food nazi for saying that, but I haven't mentioned one word about GMOs being bad for you.
      Oneironaut Zero likes this.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    10. #10
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,246
      Likes
      831
      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      You realize that Monsanto is trying to copy-right natural DNA sequences, not just genetically altered ones.
      Source? I can't find anything specific to Monsanto about that.

      They have bribed congress into making them untouchable so they can do whatever they want without getting sued.
      Are you referring to a specific piece of legislation, such as the so-called "Monsanto Protection Act?"

      They have sued farmers because wind has carried their seeds and infected other peoples farms, which they call theft.
      They don't, actually, and have made it clear that doing so isn't their policy. They sued a farmer in Canada who, while he claimed some of their seeds had been inadvertently transferred to his field, had actually knowingly planted Monsanto's seeds. The court ruled it a patent infringement.

      They have caused some extraordinary amount of farmers in India to commit suicide because Monsanto makes it too expensive for the average family farm (due to having to rebuy seeds every year) their pesticides have been directly linked to driving bees to extinction (meaning they're threatening the whole fucking ecosphere), and they've been buying the studies and burying them for decades, so they've known this to be true. They've known they're driving people to commit suicide, and trying to disrupt the ecosystem, and they've given zero fucks.
      The only thing I see about Indian farmer suicides relates to the introduction of Bt cotton in ~2002, but an IFPRI study (2008) showed no causal link between the introduction of Bt cotton and suicide rates.

      You can call me a food nazi for saying that, but I haven't mentioned one word about GMOs being bad for you.
      Nor should you, since they're just as safe as so-called "conventional" food. To me, a food nazi is somebody who rails against GM foods under the false impression that they're filled with "nasty chemicals" or that they're toxic/unhealthy (just visit Infowars or Natural News to see the garbage they come up with). Being concerned with Monsanto's legal practices or even patent law is an entirely different matter.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    11. #11
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      Monsanto to copy-right natural DNA:

      Monsanto files patent for new invention: the pig | Greenpeace International

      Monsanto's Bt cotton linked to farmer suicides in India:

      Monsanto and India’s “Suicide Economy” | The Media Freedom Foundation

      Monsanto linked to hive collapse:

      Pesticides Definitively Linked to Bee Colony Collapse | The Alliance for Natural Health USA

      And this is the first I've heard that the so called culprit knowingly planted those seeds. A claim like that requires evidence. If he knowingly planted the seeds, why is it that he attempted to prosecute Monsanto originally for infecting his land?

      And why do you call it the so-called Monsanto Protection Act? That's what it's called. Your apologism for this criminal company is obvious and nauseating.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    12. #12
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      juroara and OpheliaBlue like this.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    13. #13
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      And the best part is, we wont be able to take them to court!

    14. #14
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Gender
      Posts
      2,246
      Likes
      831
      Do you have anything that doesn't come from websites with an obvious anti-GM bias? I'll look over those links, but in the future, just link me to the actual studies instead of the pages with an agenda to push.

      Monsanto's Bt cotton linked to farmer suicides in India:

      Monsanto and India’s “Suicide Economy” | The Media Freedom Foundation
      This article states that Monsanto argues there is no single cause. At the risk of looking like I'm automatically siding with Monsanto (which you will no doubt assume, erroneously), they appear to be correct. I mentioned that 2008 IFPRI study in my previous reply.

      And this is the first I've heard that the so called culprit knowingly planted those seeds. A claim like that requires evidence. If he knowingly planted the seeds, why is it that he attempted to prosecute Monsanto originally for infecting his land?
      He didn't attempt to prosecute Monsanto for having their seeds on his land. Monsanto discovered that he was growing their seeds, approached him with a license agreement. When he refused - his reason being that they got there accidentally and since they're on his land, he can do what he wants with them - they sued for patent infringement. The court ruled that he did indeed violate Monsanto's patent by saving and planting their seeds, but he wasn't required to pay their legal bills or pay damages since he didn't make any profit off the seeds.

      Now, this is different to the standard story anti-Monsanto groups like to tell, which is that if Monsanto discovers you have their seeds on your land (especially inadvertently, which the anti-Monsanto groups focus on), they'll sue you right off the bat. Monsanto says they do not and will not do that, and they certainly didn't do that in the Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser case.

      If you want to attack Monsanto for legitimately trying to protect their patents (by legitimately I mean not suing for merely accidentally having their seeds on your land), go ahead, but you have to attack every other company that sues based on patent infringement as well. Your real issue is with patent law.

      And why do you call it the so-called Monsanto Protection Act? That's what it's called.
      Because it's not actually called the Monsanto Protection Act. Rag sites like Infowars were the ones that came up with the title. This "act" is just a provision in the annual Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations bill, and it doesn't even protect Monsanto in the slightest way. On the contrary, it protects the farmers. The provision doesn't allow selling of untested seeds, or for Monsanto to ignore court orders to not sell GM seeds (or to ignore court orders at all, or for Monsanto to ignore health hazards.

      Your apologism for this criminal company is obvious and nauseating.
      You'll have to excuse me if I would rather attack someone (or something) based on their actual misdeeds rather than misdeeds conjured up by preexisting fear and misinformation.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    15. #15
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Do you have anything that doesn't come from websites with an obvious anti-GM bias? I'll look over those links, but in the future, just link me to the actual studies instead of the pages with an agenda to push.
      It's not exactly easy to find a pro-GM website that's willing to spill the bad news about Monsanto. But here's the actual patent: http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/e...%2529&maxRec=1

      If you use google scholar, it's pretty easy to find the studies that link colony collapse directly to monsanto's neocotinoid insecticides. For one example (among many): http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org...-099-106lu.pdf

      This article states that Monsanto argues there is no single cause. At the risk of looking like I'm automatically siding with Monsanto (which you will no doubt assume, erroneously), they appear to be correct. I mentioned that 2008 IFPRI study in my previous reply.
      There rarely are single causes to any single suicide. But Monsanto stands something to gain from mass suicides. The US already laid the groundwork to replace family farms with corporate ones, now the groundwork must be laid in India. The fact is, a family farm cannot afford to purchase the copy-righted seed every year. That alone can drive a small farm into bankruptcy, and that kind of financial loss is the leading cause of these suicides.

      He didn't attempt to prosecute Monsanto for having their seeds on his land. Monsanto discovered that he was growing their seeds, approached him with a license agreement. When he refused - his reason being that they got there accidentally and since they're on his land, he can do what he wants with them - they sued for patent infringement. The court ruled that he did indeed violate Monsanto's patent by saving and planting their seeds, but he wasn't required to pay their legal bills or pay damages since he didn't make any profit off the seeds.

      Now, this is different to the standard story anti-Monsanto groups like to tell, which is that if Monsanto discovers you have their seeds on your land (especially inadvertently, which the anti-Monsanto groups focus on), they'll sue you right off the bat. Monsanto says they do not and will not do that, and they certainly didn't do that in the Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser case.

      If you want to attack Monsanto for legitimately trying to protect their patents (by legitimately I mean not suing for merely accidentally having their seeds on your land), go ahead, but you have to attack every other company that sues based on patent infringement as well. Your real issue is with patent law.
      No, my issue is with patenting seeds and DNA. People should be allowed to save their own seeds. This enforcement of repurchasing seeds is the same type of planned obsolescence that holds our technology back and strangles the middles class by requiring them to continue repurchasing items more often than necessary. This tactic is an unfortunate consequence of Capitalism, but when it's protected by the government it becomes Fascist Corporatism.

      Because it's not actually called the Monsanto Protection Act. Rag sites like Infowars were the ones that came up with the title. This "act" is just a provision in the annual Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations bill, and it doesn't even protect Monsanto in the slightest way. On the contrary, it protects the farmers. The provision doesn't allow selling of untested seeds, or for Monsanto to ignore court orders to not sell GM seeds (or to ignore court orders at all, or for Monsanto to ignore health hazards.
      Yes it does. It allows the Secretary of Agriculture to grant temporary deregulation status to anyone growing biotech crops whether or not there's been a legal challenge. This means precisely that farming corporations can start using whatever crops the FDA approves (and the FDA and Monsanto have a revolving door going) and can grow, harvest and sell those crops to the public even if it's proven that say, they cause intestinal damage, sterility or are a known allergen. The whole point of possible litigation in this case is to cause more scrutiny and more testing than simply what the FDA would OK (because the FDA is basically a subsidy of Monsanto) in order to prevent any possible health consequences. Even Snopes agrees with that interpretation.

      You'll have to excuse me if I would rather attack someone (or something) based on their actual misdeeds rather than misdeeds conjured up by preexisting fear and misinformation.
      It sounds like you're allowing a bias against some of the people that oppose Monsanto to turn you biased in favor of a company which, as I have shown you, has committed actual misdeeds. I thought you were a libertarian capitalist, you of all people should have a problem with revolving doors.

      Spoiler for Monsanto, our Government:
      Last edited by Original Poster; 06-04-2013 at 11:14 PM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 6
      Last Post: 04-23-2013, 03:34 AM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •