Thread: Believer-atheist marriage impossible?

But on the other side.. I might be completely wrong. Just as I can accept the fact that I don't understand most of the things in the world and enjoy life regardless of that, maybe I can accept the fact that she believes in a god and still love her regardless of our difference. This comes back to Sageous' first post, that religion might not really matter. I don't have much expierience with people in general and zero love expierience, I've only had a few friends in my entire life so there might be a lot I don't know about relationships (in general).

Soo - there is a specific female specimen we're talking about here, right?
How's she reacting to "the amount of information available", did you try to engage her respectively?

No.. I barely know her and she lives in Turkey in a village where my parents (and majority of the family) grew up. We go there every year but I only really got interested and talked to her last year. And I always avoid talking about religion because everyone in my family (and Turkey in general) is religious or at least pretends to be. Oh wait, you're asking if I tried to talk her out of her religion? That's what you mean by your second sentence I think.. No I didn't and even if I wanted to we didn't go anywhere by ourselves (just her house or my aunts house) so we didn't have the privacy to talk about a touchy subject.

EDIT: No you didn't excactly say "talk her out of her religion", but it will eventually lead to it if you go discuss long enough about where we come from and things like that.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

I honestly feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with a person who believes in a god. The ignorance would probably be way too much for me to handle. No matter how cute her smile is, how hot her body or how much we seem to get along. I like questioning things, question everything until I get tired of thinking and the next day I'll start questioning again. Sometimes I question so much that I don't make any progress at all. And if somebody is ignorant enough not to question all the stories and to really believe this life is a test and completely insignificant compared to heaven/hell, I could never get close to that person. If I was born 50 years ago I would understand it, but with the amount of information available it's just strange to believe in a god. Damn I could go on and on but it wouldn't do anything except get me frustrated.. The world is full of complex things and mysteries and things nobody don't understand yet, just accept it! Richard Feynman makes a good point here


I also have gigantic ambitions as a musician/violinist so I don't much time left to spend with a girl anyway

So are you saying you think there may be something fundamentally wrong with somebody who believes in the highly specific God that the major religions are presenting as the God or are you saying somebody who believes or even seriously entertains the idea that God, a God, multiple Gods, or incomprehensible forces unbeknownst to ourselves have something fundamentally wrong with them? Based off what you have said, your answer would be the former, but your post is a bit ambiguous.

Everything is a bit ambiguous. And yes I mean the former, the Christian, Muslim and Jewish god. But it wasn't completely true what I said. Actually I don't think there is a problem with just believing in a god, the Christian/Muslim/Jewish version of god and the world is completely ridiculous. Alright you believe that there is a higher power, but why the stories? It goes further than stories, you have to devote yourself and your life for this god so that you can get into heaven and not burn in hell. That's basically it right? It's fine to believe in a god or incomprehensible forces but the way that that is automatically linked to that devotion is what irritates me the most. Do you understand?

I think the difference between believers and atheists is less than the difference between close minded and open minded people on both sides!

To me a person who says that an intelligent person cannot believe in God is as close minded as a person who says that anyone who does not recognize Jesus Christ as their own personal savior is going to hell - in my opinion both such people are so convinced of being right and cannot phantom the possibility of being wrong, and so to me they are both fanatics of different viewpoints.

On the other hand I am a believer who believes that as a Christian it is my duty to question my beliefs regularly, that I cannot know anything for sure, and while I have beliefs, I realize that I could be wrong about any of them. I keep exploring my own religion, other religions, scienTific ideas, all kinds of ideas, and keep revising and learning. I do not tell anyone that they are going to hell. And I can understand agnostic atheists who say that they do not know whether or not there is a God because they have no reason to believe in one. My position is different but I can understand their point of view.

I happen to be lucky enough to be married to an open minded man who shares many though not all of my beliefs. However, if I had fallen in love with an agnostic atheist I could imagine we would have gotten along just fine. Falling in love with a Christian who believed that all non Christians and at least half of the Christians are going to hell, however, would have been impossible for me, even though we both call ourselves "Christian."

I think there really might be a god (although I do think that all of the holy books are fiction) but I seriously doubt whether I would ever have a solid relationship with a believer. Yes I said it might be possible but it´s very unlikely. I still think it´s strange to believe in the kind of god you believe in. So do you think everything that happens happens because God wanted it to happen?

I agree completely with your second paragraph.

I think a lot happens because of insufficient human awareness. If we were more aware and had enough faith, who knows we might even move mountains - although then we would not do that most likely because we would then know what would be the most useful thing to do, and I suspect moving mountains would not be it. But lack of awareness combined with free will contributes to issues. Of course, that does not explain everything, but I do not claim to understand everything - in fact I know I don't, and I can be wrong.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I do have faith though. An ambition is just faith combined with a dream/fantasy. Yes a bit of awareness can solve a large amount of problems. But I still wonder how you can have faith while doubting it at the same time. Because you say that you believe in God (have faith) but you still think that you might be wrong. It's contradictory to me.

Doubt and faith are for me two sides of the same coin, two tools that make spiritual evolution possible. Faith without doubt is static dogma. If one assumes that one's starting point cannot be 100% correct due to limited understanding, then faith without doubt would remain equally incorrect over time. Doubt without faith cannot reach a resolution, it seeks but it never finds. To evolve spiritually one needs both.

Is it contradictory? Of course! But that is not a problem. One of the beliefs that atheists seem to have is in the infallibility of human logic. Whereas this is not a belief I share as a believer: human logic may say that something is contradictory, but we are human and our reasoning can be flawed even when it is perfectly logical. A contradiction may point out a flaw in logic: not just a flaw in how one reasons, but a limitation of reasoning itself. Of course, it may also point out an untruth at other times, and the problem is that if one does not trust logic fully one cannot use logic to determine always when one is wrong. This does not mean that I throw out logic completely, but rather that I do not always completely trust it though it can of course be correct and useful many times.

Edit: This is essentially the crux of why a true atheist cannot persuade a true believer, and a true believer cannot convert a true atheist. You say I am irrational and illogical, therefore I must be wrong. I say that reason and logic can only take one so far in understanding the spiritual, and there are truths that are irrational and illogical, because ultimately logic is not my God.

Even though we are having a normal discussion here I am getting irritated, I don't know why but let's just stop. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry too, Ginsan. I honor your request to stop.

I think whether or not a relationship between a non-believer and a believer would work is determined solely on the belief of whether or not it would work held by both individuals. If you want to make it work, if both of you are willing to shut up or try to understand one another, if you are both determined to love each other despite what you believe, then there isn't a way it can fail. Right now anybody saying that they do not think it would work for them is arguing a matter of opinion in regards to themselves and not on whether it could work for others. Knowing this, if you believe that what the case is for you will be the case for others, then you are not thinking deeply enough on the subject. The question is whether it could work, not list all the reasons it couldn't and ignore how it could.

If there is even one case where it can work, the argument that it never could is false. That is the nature of how such statements and arguments work. If you want to argue about how often it could work or whether it would for you or a friend you know, then that is another story.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

I'm sorry too, Ginsan. I honor your request to stop.

Cool = D


You're right snoop. You are so right you make me feel dumb, because almost nothing stands in the way of love. Just like my dream as a future violinist, I never think about how likely it is, I only see that tiny beam of possibility of how it could work and focus on that. When you are in love, you shouldn't think about all the reasons why it should or shouldn't work, just love without looking back and it will probably be wonderful. Like Mozart said: "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."

Originally Posted by Ginsan

Cool = D


You're right snoop. You are so right you make me feel dumb, because almost nothing stands in the way of love. Just like my dream as a future violinist, I never think about how likely it is, I only see that tiny beam of possibility of how it could work and focus on that. When you are in love, you shouldn't think about all the reasons why it should or shouldn't work, just love without looking back and it will probably be wonderful. Like Mozart said: "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."

Nah man, I think your attitude is keeping you from getting anywhere, and you pretty much just proved that. I realize it's hard to give some things up and situations aren't all that cut and dry, and I'm not saying that it will work 100% of the time even if you try your hardest.

What I am saying is that it can work, which was what the argument was. At this point you are getting angry because you are presented with some kind of reasonable argument against yours, and it doesn't quite suit your fancy. I thought you were done arguing, so why did you even comment? I'm all for debating here, but if all you are going to do is withdrawal yourself from the debate, freeing yourself of any responsibility in making an argument that follows any sort of rules of debate and being fair, and then respond facetiously in an effort to undermine an otherwise reasonable argument all you are doing then is giving my argument more credibility. If you would actually like to part take in the argument then feel free to come back at me in a way that isn't just making fun of what I said and prove your point by meaning what you say and backing it up. Right now you are acting as if you lost and you have you have to grasp at straws and kick and scream the whole way to go down with your ship. You could be right for all I know, but your actions are telling me that not even you believe that you are right. If you take yourself out of the debate, then quit trying to debate.

As far as I know this wasn't a debate, we were just talking and I already said you are right. I wasn't being sarcastic.

Got you. You are unwilling to meet eye to eye on the subject because of some presumably personal reason. Fine, if you are unwilling to be open minded on the subject and actually discuss why you think your opinion should mean more than anyone else's (you know, prove that you are right, because let's be honest here: this is a debate and you were taking part in it. a discussion is a debate that has no real definable winner. for that reason I am willing to drop the subject, but you keep telling yourself whatever makes you feel most comfortable, no body has an opinion worth understanding other than your own, you are probably right--if you see life that way then no one's opinion is worth investigating because you aren't willing to see things from a different point of view. At least you are being honest with yourself, even if you are lying to the rest of us).

I can admit that you said I am right, but I can say with most certainty you don't actually believe in what you are saying. If you do, I applaud your ability to admit you are wrong, but you could actually try and reason with people in a manner that is respectable and no just be outright rude as fuck. If you believed we were right then you wouldn't be posting here any more, your conviction in your own truthful statement would be showing and right now it isn't.

I don't know if this is Beethoven conducted by Toscanini or you making me grin from ear to ear xD

But what exactly are we debating about now? About whether or not a believer-atheist marriage is possible? Like any relationship, it relies on a large number of things and the greatest factor is love for each other. From that love things can flow that can make relationships work. Like patience, honesty, seeing from the other's point of view.

"I think whether or not a relationship between a non-believer and a believer would work is determined solely on the belief of whether or not it would work held by both individuals." Really? I think if two people love each other they will stay together regardless of what they believe.

A frog is about to cross a lake but then a scorpion comes and asks the frog to take him across because there is more food on the other side. Frog: "how do I know you're not going to sting me?" "If I sting you, you will drown and I'll go down with you" The frog is convinced and lets the scorpion climbs on his back. In the middle of the lake the frog feels a sting, while drowning, with his final breath he asks "Why?", and the scorpion says, "It's in my nature"

Love is stronger than any kind of belief or thought anyone has. When you love you simply love regardless of everything else.

But now comes the interesting part: I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with a believer and it shows in the way somebody thinks and acts and interprets things and lives his/her life that prevents me from getting really close. You might say it's not wrong, but different that is a whole new discussion.

Then make a new thread? This thread isn't about that, and trying to start a discussion new is deserving of it's own platform with it's own explanation. Don't you agree? If we agree on this subject, and you are trying to start a new discussion, then why don't you make a thread about it instead of hijacking this one and being confusing as fuck in the process? I am open to discussing another subject, but make it a new thread for it so I know what you're actually trying to argue instead of keeping things purposefully ambiguous.

So we agree on everything except for the last part?

It's pointless to discuss that last part. 1) We would have to know what makes two people love each other. 2) What makes someone believe in God. 3) Behaviour probably has a big impact on whether someone falls in love or not. So we would have to know what makes someone behave this way or that way. 4) How belief in God relates to how someone behaves. With behaviour I mean general attitude in life.

As far as I know, these questions can only be asnwered through neuroscience and as far as I know, neuroscience is not advanced enough for it.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

It's pointless to discuss that last part. 1) We would have to know what makes two people love each other. 2) What makes someone believe in God. 3) Behaviour probably has a big impact on whether someone falls in love or not. So we would have to know what makes someone behave this way or that way. 4) How belief in God relates to how someone behaves. With behaviour I mean general attitude in life.

As far as I know, these questions can only be asnwered through neuroscience and as far as I know, neuroscience is not advanced enough for it.

You are defining others' beliefs based on your own, how can you expect everyone to think the same way you do, to have the same values and think the same thoughts? Yes, their belief in God says something about them, but not everything about them. Your own close-minded beliefs are making you think everyone else is just as close-minded, when it simply isn't true. So no, I don't agree with what you are saying because you're acting as if all humans act and think exactly the same. Admittedly they are all incredibly similar, but that doesn't mean what you can expect to happen 9 out of 10 times will happen 10 times, because it simply won't at least one of the times.

You are unwilling to be with somebody who believes, alright that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You don't think it would work for you and a believer. That's great. That doesn't mean it can't or won't. If you are arguing it won't a majority of the time, then say so, but you aren't being very direct in stating that belief. You are trying to convince us of that based on telling us that there is something fundamentally wrong with people who believe in God, and I think there is something fundamentally wrong with people who believe there is something fundamentally wrong with people based on a personal belief they hold. You can say that I am stupid for thinking that, okay, but your meaning is lost to me at that point so we should agree to disagree on it, but at least I am willing to recognize that with life there are more unknowns than knowns, and simply pretending to know something does not make it so. It might make you appear to be right because 95% of the time you are, but what does it say if you are still wrong 5% of the time? That you're probably wrong, that what you think you know isn't actually the truth, it's just kind of the truth. It's only the truth under the best of circumstances. If it isn't the truth 100% of the time then it isn't the truth at all.

So, if you want to say that some people who believe in God have something fundamentally wrong with them, then that's one argument, but that anybody who does has something wrong with them is a very broad statement and shows to me that you ignorantly have come to a conclusion you have no verifiable credible way of proving is the truth under the most illuminated and scrutable of conditions. For you to act that way is foolish and suggests something more fundamentally wrong with your belief system than in somebody who simply believes something out there greater than them exists.

I can only get along with most people but only on a superficial level. I am 20 years old and have never met anybody who I can deeply relate to.

I don't think everyone has the same thoughts. I am not unwilling to be with someone who believes, I just think it's almost impossible that I will fall in love with someone who believes because of the way they think. This is only for me. For other people it works but I think it's unlikely for me.

"I think there is something fundamentally wrong with people who believe there is something fundamentally wrong with people based on a personal belief they hold." That personal belief resonates with their entire soul and it says a lot about them.

"at least I am willing to recognize that with life there are more unknowns than knowns." As long as we are finding out more and more about the world discussing that statement in pointless. Only when we have gone as far as we can and we are still facing unknowns is it reasonable to discuss whether or not there are unknowns. Currently technology is growing more and more powerful, science as a result is explaining more and more things.

"but that anybody who does has something wrong with them is a very broad statement" It's a very broad statement indeed but it's not necessarily incorrect.

"somebody who simply believes something out there greater than them exists." This is not what I mean by "someone who believes". What I mean is the Christian God, you can believe something greater is out there but why does it have to be the one described in the books and not something completely different. As far as I know, all kinds of gods are equally as likely to exist because there is no evidence for any one of them.

EDIT: It is not only believers that I think it's unlikely to get along with. I also think it's unlikely for me to get along with people who dedicate their lives to their career and their career to making money and climbing up the ladder. There is something wrong with people who join the war just because "their country" is being attacked. I also think that there is something wrong with bullies. It's not just theists. People are all really different and it's no wonder a good friend or good wife/husband is so rare. People can get along very well superficially but it's quite rare to find a good partner for life.

Originally Posted by Ginsan

I don't think everyone has the same thoughts. I am not unwilling to be with someone who believes, I just think it's almost impossible that I will fall in love with someone who believes because of the way they think. This is only for me. For other people it works but I think it's unlikely for me.

Then I agree with you, I am sorry to have caused such a large argument in your thread.