Thread: Dream Masterhood, by Shannon Green

It seems an interesting read but what kind of discussion do you want to start with this? I don't really know what to respond to

What's not to discuss?

Do you know why drugs that work a lot on dopamine don't cause hallucinations or very clear mental images? When I take methylphenidate (dopamine reuptake inhibitor) or amphetamines I can't visualize more clearly and I certainly don't experience hallucinations. These drugs causes a huge increase in the amount of dopamine in the brain.

It's important to know that dopamine's functionality in the brain is by far not as limited as OP makes it sound. It primarily serves as a neurotransmitter, playing a major role in reward-punishment pathways, positive emotions, motor control (Parkinson's disease is characterised by dopamine deficiency) and can also function as a hormone in multiple intestinal and vascular processes.
There is absolutely no direct link between dopamine and hallucinating; not much is scientifically proven in that area, anyway. Dopamine is at all times present in most parts of the brain. Some studies do suggest a correlation between higher dopamine concentrations and vivid hallucination, but that might just as well be because the hallucinations cause the increase in dopamine.

EDIT: There might also be what they call a confounding variable: a certain process in the brain might cause both the increase in dopamine and the increase in hallucinations. Saying the two are directly linked is the same as saying more people drown because they eat more ice cream, while both these things are caused by higher temperatures in summer (more people swimming & more people eating ice cream).

I still find it really strange, QuadHelix, how you continue to suggest such direct connections between chemical substances with certain biological applications to cognitive or even spiritual experiences.
Complex concepts such as hallucinations or visualization just cannot be explained by naming one chemical substance; the processes in the brain that convert chemistry to a feeling are immensely complex and largely unknown. Blunt statements, such as "The more Dopamine in your mental, the more complex visualizations you'll have", that you mention in your post, are extremely misleading. First of all, you can hardly measure the 'amount' of dopamine in the brain and the effects of dopamine concentration are completely dependent on the particular area of the brain you find it in. Also, 'your mental' isn't a thing; you are mixing up philosophy with measurable, physical concepts here. Lastly, as I mentioned before, you cannot state that a chemical causally results in complex visualizations because there is just so much more to it.

I would really like some explanation on how you come to these ideas, that seem like assumptions, and why you think they are true. In an earlier discussion you said that it was based on wordless experience, and how you cannot explain that. I fully agree, you cannot explain wordless experience, but there is no way to merely 'experience' dopamine having an effect on your visualization. I am actually curious as to why you believe in this.

I haven't limited Dopamine, EddieDean, same as I have contributed to the discussion board with this thread. On the contrary to EddieDean's half Wikipedia half academic pun about Dopamine, my experience is practical whereas 'theirs' is the external looking into the brain and thus, in their eyes, "exploring the mind".

Dopamine has many functions as EddieDean stated, but thought up imagery, and dreams, are at the forefront of its functionality.

I ask you to compile an image in your mind space.

Compile an image of a tree behind you, in Autumn with above it a sky and exactly two birds flying in it. This should work and many people I know have confirmed it.

As with dreams, this potential sometimes needs to be activated.

If you take meth, try roll your eyes back into your head rather than tightening your jaw. There is self input regarding these functions of Dopamine.

Originally Posted by EddieDean

There is absolutely no direct link between dopamine and hallucinating

True. And this is exactly why I asked the question why drugs don't cause the effects mentioned by OP.


@QuadHelix, We just don't understand how you link hallucinations with one neurotransmitter. How can you feel that dopamine is responsible for certain actions like imagery? I would really like to know this.

I suggest you buy a book or two about the brain, especially focussing on synapses. You are practically trying to say that chemical X is responsible for event Y. You are clearly not well educated about this topic and there are huge holes in your logic too.

I would like to keep this discussion on the topic at hand, QuadHelix, instead of accusing me of a 'half wikipedia, half academic pun'. While your experience may be practical, it is by no means more valid than academic research. For starters, your experience is singular, and it is just ignorant to convert the experiences of one person to a generalised theory.
Also, external looking into the brain is much more objective, in any situation, than basing a theory on a personal experience, which is by definition subjective. Furthermore, there is no way to 'experience' dopamine as I said before, your experience is merely a perception of very complex cognitive processes that are part of a large network with multiple feedback loops between different parts of the brain.

I don't know how compiling an image in my mind space would convince me of the truth in what you are saying. I know it is possible, as I think most people do, and have done it. I am not denying the potential of visualization and I don't know why you think I do.

Anphetamines are known for causing hallucinations, even by academic standards. I don't see what your point is other than you love "quacka"demia. I know MDMA causes hallucinations, and furthermore allows one to visualise, in a more furfilling way than shrooms.

At no point think I'm focused only on you, your presupposed 'point', and ignorant of other more intellectual readers.

You came in asking a leading question to build an opinion- in disagreement- because you thrill off of social power, and more precisely you don't actually know what your talking about.

You are academicians after all.

It's also affected by Serotonin substantially. You're the ones making my post 'limited' with your closed minds.

Quackademic research consists of things like heat-scans to determine, sometimes in well people's minds, why they behave- or think- in certain ways. These heat-scans are far less advanced than minds, using them as a measurement of thought is far less advanced than using the conscious self.

Don't believe the stories! They're here to promote the exact things that cause void dreams.


P.S. We = you and whoever posts in disagreement.

The mind is everything but a good thing to measure things objectively.


Our point: your "theory" about dopamine is built on absolutely nothing. I haven't seen one decent counter-argument. Please, tell us why you think dopamine does these things.

"Modulation of memory" or "Imagination" are not functions of a neurotransmitter. A neurotransmitter is a chemical that through binding on receptor proteins conveys a signal between neurons. There are large holes in your reasoning where you just skip the parts you cannot explain.

I'm not even going to respond to your rant about academics and until you manage to show some substantial arguments that don't come down to the same unsupported reasoning everytime I am not going to spend my time arguing against these arguments. I'm not trying to sound arrogant here, but I feel there is nothing for either of us to win in this discussion and in my opinion it does not at all contribute to these forums anymore.

Like dreams, EddieDean, like dreams.

Originally Posted by Forg

Do you know why drugs that work a lot on dopamine don't cause hallucinations or very clear mental images? When I take methylphenidate (dopamine reuptake inhibitor) or amphetamines I can't visualize more clearly and I certainly don't experience hallucinations. These drugs causes a huge increase in the amount of dopamine in the brain.

It's important to understand pharmacology at this point. Methylphenidate is much more potent as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor than a dopamine reuptake inhibitior, of which it is both. Amphetamines function quite differently, but even they are much more potent in "releasing" and preventing the reuptake of methylphenidate. Taking small doses will not cause hallucinations. A simple increase does not mean you will hallucinate. However, substituted amphetamines (of which methylphenidate and regular amphetamine salts are) are known to cause psychosis in those who are bipolar or schizophrenic, and in high enough doses or as a result of constant redosing, stimulant psychosis can occur.

Originally Posted by QuadHelix

Anphetamines are known for causing hallucinations, even by academic standards. I don't see what your point is other than you love "quacka"demia. I know MDMA causes hallucinations, and furthermore allows one to visualise, in a more furfilling way than shrooms.

MDMA is far less potent as a DRA (dopamine releasing agent) and NRA (norepinephrine) than as an as a serotonin releasing agent. I know you said you haven't limited hallucinations to dopamine and maybe you used the example of MDMA to say you are implicating serotonin too, but in both cases I feel like you lack a good understanding of hallucinations work as a phenomenon. Simply pointing to a neurotransmitter and leaving out which sub-receptors they affect, where the receptors they affect are located, and what the implications of all of that are. Also, saying MDMA allows you to visualize better than shrooms is a personal experience, not all people would agree with you. As a matter of fact, most people would say that dissociative drugs, on a whole, are far better at allowing you to visualize or experience closed-eye visualizations than just about any other drug group (barring deliriants, which are incredibly toxic and a waste of time if you are trying to use something for visualization anyway).

Your ability to experience closed-eye hallucinations and visualize is increased when you deprive yourself of sensory input. Trance states and meditation help. It all has to do with how the brain constructs reality, which it is always doing--whether awake or asleep. If you deprive yourself of sensory input, those circuits decouple and stop feeding information to the brain about the outside world. Thenceforth, anything you experience an attempt of the brain to make sense of what isn't there in the first place, allowing suggestion and other techniques to guide the experience. If you want to best visualize, meditate in an isolation chamber or run a Ganzfeld experiment.

On the topic of hallucinations again, it is far too complicated to pin anything on some neurotransmitters. You need to look into the various theories out there about schizophrenia. Glutamate seems highly implicated, even if dopamine or serotonin are implicated as well (in both cases they affect glutamatergic activity anyway). You have to read all the information and come to the best conclusion. It's also helpful to read up on how consciousness is formed and the models of consciousness. You can't just pick something that sounds good and go with it, or you won't get anywhere. For instance, many people on DV think that serotonin is helpful in having more vivid lucid dreams, and so recommend that you eat a banana or something like that in order to increase your chances of having more vivid dreams. Some even claim it works, but serotonin isn't even able to pass through the blood-brain barrier. It has other functions in the body outside the brain, mostly in the gut. If anything, they are helping their digestion, and that's it. The serotonin they are consuming is having no effect on the vividness of dreams whatsoever. You have to do lots of research, and there really isn't ever a point where you can stop.

Snoop; I understand the prevailing complexity of the mind; but to the one experiencing their own mind, it's more like a 'toy to be played with', or a personal process, rather than a specimen to conduct scientific analysis and experiment- however, you are right, it's not only serotonin and dopamine. From my own experiences I've noticed that while on anti-psychotics that agonise or are antagonists of D2 receptors, my image compilations are less accurate and of a lower quality.

When not taking them I have great visualisations and hallucinations in both my closed and open eyes. Some of which have been life changing. I've also isolated myself, and meditated to achieve such results. What agrees with you, is the fact I've had one of these sessions on anti-psychotics and it was probably the best session I've had. It is the nature of the agonist and antagonist on D2, as well as having many hallucinations and visualisations, that has given me the incentive to write about the Dopamine aspect.

However, since you're only posting external to internal, and calling all hallucinations and visualisations of anphetamines schizoprhenia, rather than drug induced psychosis- not a disease but a short term illness (or even a power in the opinion of some)- I can dismiss most of what you say in disagreement with my text, and prompt any other readers to be confident in my advice.

Originally Posted by QuadHelix

Snoop; I understand the prevailing complexity of the mind; but to the one experiencing their own mind, it's more like a 'toy to be played with', or a personal process, rather than a specimen to conduct scientific analysis and experiment- however, you are right, it's not only serotonin and dopamine. From my own experiences I've noticed that while on anti-psychotics that agonise or are antagonists of D2 receptors, my image compilations are less accurate and of a lower quality.

When not taking them I have great visualisations and hallucinations in both my closed and open eyes. Some of which have been life changing. I've also isolated myself, and meditated to achieve such results. What agrees with you, is the fact I've had one of these sessions on anti-psychotics and it was probably the best session I've had. It is the nature of the agonist and antagonist on D2, as well as having many hallucinations and visualisations, that has given me the incentive to write about the Dopamine aspect.

However, since you're only posting external to internal, and calling all hallucinations and visualisations of anphetamines schizoprhenia, rather than drug induced psychosis- not a disease but a short term illness (or even a power in the opinion of some)- I can dismiss most of what you say in disagreement with my text, and prompt any other readers to be confident in my advice.

I think you are misunderstanding a lot of what I am saying, especially in regards to schizophrenia. Just because I am on the topic of something else and segue to schizophrenia, doesn't mean I believe that those things are schizophrenia. Granted, I could have done a better job making this clear, so the misunderstanding is... understandable.

Now, as far as anti-psycotics go, which ones have you taken? Some of them affect so many neurotransmitters it's crazy. For instance, seroquel doesn't just affect dopamine receptors, it affects histamine, serotonin, adrenergic, and mAch (a specific sub-type of acetylcholine receptors)--and it is an antagonist at all those sites. If you took an anti-psychotic with this broad of an effect, using something's effects on D2 receptors as an example goes out the window, because you can't differentiate the effects.

Also, there are such a thing as autoreceptors, and D2 long and D2 short, along with pre- and post-synaptic receptors. Autoreceptors act as a braking system using the same neurotransmitter that normal elicits an action potential, to stop further action potentials from happening. D2 often specifically acts as a "braking system" when it comes to dopaminergic activity, although depending on if it's D2 short or D2 long, and whether it binds at the pre- or post-synaptic location on a neuron, the effects can be entirely different.

If you truly wish to make any headway with this, stop watching youtube videos and start reading peer-reviewed scientific papers.

Ok snoop, thanks for the heads up.