William: We are discussing biblical narrative, [re OP] not any particular Christian belief or interpretation of biblical narrative, over any other.
[
Replying to tam in post #186]
Then why ask me about it?
The thread is open to all and the question asked in the OP is specific to my investigations as I want to see if I can source where this problem derives.
[I am clipping out the conversation about the - or rather a - Jewish perspective, because it has already been covered.]
The Jewish perspective is important as it reveals the fundamental differences between Hebrew and Christian narratives on the nature of YHWH.
So it is relevant in the context of truthfulness re the OPQ as the Hebrews did not see the problem of evil in the same way as Christianity.
The Hebrew Perspective is therefore on the table and remains uncovered.
As you may or may not know, the Jewish perception of the Hebrew culture and accompanying beliefs about YHWH [as GOD] was that they did not have the notion that GOD had enemies.
Their notion was that YHWH used what humans think of as "Good/Evil" as YHWH saw fit to do, and the only enemy/adversary/accuser anyone had to concern their selves about, was YHWH.
"Nor does it mean they are not" is not evidence for anything. Especially not when there is evidence AGAINST the idea you are presenting.
Well no such evidence has been presented.
What has been presented shows that YHWH works with Satan for particular purposes in specific situations.
What is important is how Christianity built mythology re Satan and how you are using that mythology to make claims which cast a shadow of evil over Satan, which has the affect of staining the name of GOD - a blemish which created the problem of evil [as per the OPTopic]
Originally Posted by
OP
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world.
William: More to the point I am making, it is Satan being described as a roaring lion, which up until then, was a biblical description of YHWH.
It is also simply descriptive of a king's wrath:
Indeed - as is the devouring of enemies.
Are we thus to consider Satan a "King"?
How shall we consider The Bright Morning Star? Both bible Satan and bible Jesus are titled the same.
My point remains. If these agencies are at war as Christian mythology declares, why is this not reflected in the titles they have been given through the cultures of humankind?
William: There are some options to consider re that. One such option being;
~The writer using the roaring devouring lion to analogize Satan, was unaware that YHWH had already been analogized in that way, and thus would have not comprehended the ripple effect of his use of the same analogy for his version of Satan.~
But Christ is one person. His Father is another person. The Adversary is another person altogether. And of course Christ is the Truth; whereas the Adversary is a liar and the father of lies.
William: Which - if the option I mentioned, is the correct one, means that you have been misinformed by the writer.
The writer of 1stPeter.
The one who was possibly unaware that YHWH was already referred to as The roaring hunting devouring Lion.
{I am not concerned with the writers name, but the content of what was written. Writers can misinform through writing - even unintentionally.]
My interests lay elsewhere - in the observation that the 1Peter version enlists the metaphor applied [attributed] to YHWH, long before the writer of 1Peter.
Satan is not the enemy of Christianity (the religion);
The religion which gave us the NT part of the bible.
"Humankind" is a more modern and acceptable expression than 'mankind'.
What is it that Humankind is doing which makes Satan the enemy of Humankind?
and he goes after those who are faithful to Christ and His Father, who profess their faith in Christ and His Father. To get them to give up their faith, to 'curse God and die'.
If this is the case, then he doing so in the service of YHWH. Just as in the case of Job.
It is interesting that The Father and The Son are unaware of who these supposed 'faithful' are, that they require the services of The Accuser to flush 'em out.
William: I am not implying anything, nor am I ignoring evidence. I am comparing the evidence as it presents.
But if that is not clear enough for you, then here is the rest of the context that clearly separates God (the Father of Christ), from the devil:
You are obviously confused as to my position and argument on the matter. I am not declaring that YHWH and Satan are the same being at all. I am pointing out that some appear not to have noticed and give the separate entities the same titles, which causes the confusion that they are the same being.
Since it is also know that YHWH uses Satan for certain tasks which help YHWH sort out the chaff from the wheat, one
could argue that Satan roars like a lion and devours the enemy as YHWHs messenger - taking on those attributes of YHWH and acting the part on behalf...but that still doesn't mean they are the same entity.
What it also doesn't mean is that Satan is doing things to which YHWH does not permit. They are on the
same Team.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”
Their father who was a murderer from the beginning, a liar and the father of lies.
Whoever wrote that appears not to have known that Abraham was willing to murder his son Isaac and would have done so had not a messenger from YHWH not intervened and prevented him from doing so.
Abraham believed that YHWH had told him to murder his son [human sacrifice] and therein the example of scripture you quote here, supports the observation that Jesus appears to be calling YHWH a murderer.
William: Something which never lived, cannot be put to death.
To not create Adam based on what Adam would do, implies that that Adam (or at least the possible Adam) must have been (fore)known.
Obviously. YHWH knew and YHWH did it anyway.
Are you arguing that YHWH had no choice but to create Adam, even knowing what this would do re the ripple effect?
The point that you appear to have missed is that just because someone serves God's agenda, does not mean that they are not an enemy.
The point you appear to be missing is that YHWH has no enemies.
If some serve YHWHs agenda, believing that they are enemies of YHWH - the joke is on them.
William: Can you show any OT scripture which identifies that Satan is YHWH's enemy and was unaware that he is serving YHWH's agenda without realizing it?
I believe I said that Satan is OUR (mankind's) enemy. He seeks to destroy us (mankind). He doesn't think he can destroy God.
So we can agree then, that Satan
serves as YHWHs messenger in that capacity?
William: Re Satan.
He has intimate understanding of the role He plays in the
service of YHWH and it wasn't Satan who made Christians despise Jews.
Religions teach a mixture of true and false things.
Which is why questions need to be asked, examination needs to be done. It appears to me through what you are arguing, that Satan does not
serve YHWH and that this arrangement is a mutually agreed on thing. Satan is not forced against Satan's will to serve YHWH and there is nothing to support the idea that Satan
serves YHWH without knowing that this is the case...re your writing "An enemy can serve someone's agenda without realizing it."
William: Jesus also preached forgiveness because he would have realized too, that eventually - re the problem of evil - humans would have to forgive YHWH for utilizing Satan in YHWH's overall agenda and occasional interaction with Humans..
Christ preached forgiveness because a) forgiveness comes from love and love is the law from YHWH, from the beginning; and b) WE (not YHWH) all sin and commit wrongdoing. If WE want to be forgiven, then we must forgive
Indeed. We must forgive any and all evil attributed to being from/of YHWH...such as the belief Abraham had that YHWH wanted Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on an alter dedicated to YHWH.
There are many such incidences where YHWH is specifically said to be the one who orders humans to commit acts of evil.
So, either the acts are not evil [requiring explanation as to why] or the attributions are false and YHWH did not ever command acts of evil to be done in his name.
Or "Some other reason".
Point being, one would have to either forgive YHWH for those things he either did or was falsely accused of doing in order to approach YHWH as a potential friend and further develop the friendship into a loving relationship.
No such loving relationship can be genuinely achieved by those willing to turn a blind eye to the evidence, as far as I can tell.
Want NOT to be judged? Judge NOT.
It is not a case of judging YHWH. Rather it is a matter of sorting out the details re actions of questionable nature which have been attributed to YHWH.
Call it "discerning/discernment".
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.
Indeed.
This is a mirror-mirror effect.
For those among us hereabouts who refer to YHWH as a murderer and a liar and incompetent and lacking intelligence et al - due to the stories told of YHWH and the evil YHWH is said to have inflicted upon Humankind - acting the role of enemy of Humankind - they are in positions far from forgiving YHWH for commanding men trespass against others.
In this context, forgive the trespasses of men, = forgive YHWH the role of commander in chief who ordered the trespasses to be done by the men.
Not to forgive YHWH = "neither will your Father forgive yours"
This has nothing to do with anything I have said.
William: Except that you are guilty by association re your belief that YHWH has enemies.
If that is your reasoning process William, you would be guilty by association for using the bible (including the NT, at least when it suits you). Or just using the word "Satan" at all, considering that "the Chrsitianities" also use the word. According to your reasoning here, it doesn't matter that you are saying something completely different about that being, if you mention that being at all, you are "guilty by association".
I am not the one declaring anything Tam and my comment has to do with what YOU are declaring.
I am simply taking the overall story as presented in OT and NT and examining it.
I am not accusing anyone, YHWH, Satan, Jesus, Jew or Islam or Christian or any other theist, of being "guilty" of anything.
This is because I agree that it is better not to judge others.
My remark that you are "guilty by association" has only to do with the judgements and accusations that YOU are promoting through your particular beliefs and my holding up a mirror to those judgements and accusations that YOU are promoting through your particular beliefs, reflect on YOU.
My own thoughts on the OPQ were shared in post #6. where I write;
William: So far it appears that the "problem of evil" is an argument invented by folk who cannot entertain the idea that we exist within a creation - implying a creator - and thus implying a creator must have to be evil to have created this reality experience.
Said another way, there would not be "the problem of evil" if we do not exist within a creation - if there is no creator.
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