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Replying to The Tanager in post #127]
Hey William,
Our posts have started covering a whole bunch of ground. I’m attempting to streamline my response, but let me know if I’ve misunderstood or missed anything of importance. I saw these main areas:
Hey Tanager
Yes - it is often the case, we start out with short posts and this evolves into longer and more detailed ones.
That is why I was listing our agreements, so that these might provide a way in which to help direct our path of discussion.
We have both agreed that:
1: We exist within a creation.
2: Simulation Theory is a valid way to interpret the Biblical stories.
3: YVHV placed humans into this universe to grow personalities.
4: The purpose of YVHV growing human personalities is so that these would potentially gain experience of the truth of the reason for their environment and their temporary experience within it.
5: It is an advantage to all grown personalities to be consciously and consistently connected with YVHV and thus understand and support YVHVs initiatives.
We parted company on;
6: We do not agree that human personalities - upon the death of their body-sets - move on to other experiences.
I think this is different from whether Jesus influences people throughout the two thousand years since, however. I think He influences us from a constant, unchanging self. What changes is our understanding of things, not what He teaches.
I covered that when I wrote:
Historical scholarship is simply that. If we are to believe that Jesus has been active behind the scenes - in N.T. Wright's "Control Room" analogy, then we best not assume that the influence of that room is forever stuck in and dependent upon - that one frame of ancient history.
To expand on this understanding, What Jesus taught in no way contradicts the idea that we exist within a simulated reality.
As with YHVH, being the same/unchanging hasn't anything to do with how the authors of biblical script 'saw' YHVH and thus expressed their seeing in story form. Those stories are not "what YHVH teaches" but are expressions of inspiration by the authors who believed they were being taught by YHVH and their attempts to dress that in a language which could be understood by folk of their particular epoch.
That is why I wrote;
What is to say that if, what they did believe in was not true, that Jesus - knowing differently - wanted them to understand that their beliefs were in error?
You reply;
What changes is our understanding of things, not what He teaches.
I have been saying the same thing. So we cshould eventually be able to add that to our list of things we agree with.
Yes, like materialists, I believe spacetime is integral to our “base reality” but, unlike materialists, I believe it is only part of that base reality, not the whole story. That “spacetime is doomed,” for theists, doesn’t negate spacetime being part of base reality. Whether it will be a renewal of the present earth or a completely separate earth, that earth is still a spacetime.
This only serves to add credence to Simulation Theory Tanager.
"Spacetime is doomed" - as I wrote;
The statement which has been proved true, is that "Spacetime is Doomed." This is to say,
that spacetime is NOT the base reality which materialists have insisted that it is.
I never said that spacetime is not PART of something greater, but that it is not the base reality itself.
Your argument up to this point has appeared to be different to that, indicated by your not wanting to agree with;
6: That human personalities - upon the death of their body-sets - move on to other experiences.
Clearly, biblical script [which I have given per your request] has it that Jesus say's differently from you on this point. That script has been offered by me for your comment.
You commented;
One example I gave was that supposed personal experiences of Jesus that contradict His historical teachings, should not be accepted as true.
Yet you offer up to this point, no scriptural evidence to support your assertion re the stories folk bring to the table re their NDE experiences, that those stories should be discarded as lies, hallucinations, honest mistakes, etc.
On the other hand, an argument that the experiences being told, are the result of folk being made aware of the actual unchanging state of YHVH, to which the bible cannot be counted as something which
speaks on behalf of YHVH, but only as a reference to those telling the stories
from the perspective of their place in the epoch they underwent.
Unfortunately, the bible in that light, is a closed off book - whereby at some point, men chose to seal it shut from the advancement of human/YHVH interaction, whilst declaring it a type of complete document and cutting off all future interactions between YHVH and humans, that are NOT
exactly the same as those stories of more ancient folk, recorded in the bible.
This is perhaps the main reason for the struggle you are currently having with the idea of Simulation Theory and belief that the bible does not describe us existing within a reality simulation, and the struggle to accept the stories folk have to tell about their NDEs, as being witness to truth.
Who are we to limit what YHVH does or does not do, based upon the writings of more ancient men, who - if told of the things of our technologically advanced modern world - might also complain that such things told are lies, hallucinations, honest mistakes,
blasphemy etc?
Do you believe that YHVH did not know the future of humanity or see it as humanity moving towards uncovering truth, and thus getting closer to the unchanging state in which YHVH resides?
As far as the views on the afterlife in Jesus’ time, I would commend this article to you to read:
https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/jes ... n-origins/. The point in Revelation 21, I think, is about heaven coming to this earth, and renewing this earth. Yes, it’s a (re)new heaven and (re)new earth, but there is a continuity as well.
Honestly, it does not matter in the context of simulation theory Tanager.
If something changes, then it is not what it once was.
I recently asked otseng this:
William: Many Christians believe the bible tells it, that they will be resurrected to enjoy life in this universe forever...
How do you reconcile the eventual heat death of the universe, with such beliefs?
otseng: Everything will be reset
Your telling of it is the same as otseng, but what both of you fail to understand is that something which is changed, [ and graphically so] is not the
same thing, but a different thing.
It may indeed have similarities, as you point out, and I have no argument re that, as simulating something naturally enough does have the quality of sameness, but in order to believe that one can withstand the natural tendency of a universe - like the one we currently occupy - to NOT be harmful to the forms we occupy [the human form] either those forms must change to accommodate, or the universe must change to accommodate, or both - the bottom line is that those changes must signify that we will not be existing in the
same form and thus, Simulation Theory explains how those differences will be achieved.
New Heavens and New Earth mean that ST is involved in making it so.
Whether it is 'reset' or some other way in which this is achieved, ST is that which explains how such can be done.
Thus, my opinion on the matter of YHVH being unchangeable, is that
YHVH is the fundamental reality and ANYTHING which
changes HAS to be regarded as simulated.
[Which is why we are grown, as per agreement 3: "YVHV placed humans into this universe to grow personalities."]
Agreed?
I think it’s the same with Jesus’ resurrected body and our resurrected bodies. A car that gets an upgrade in engine, shocks, etc. is different than it was, but still the same vehicle. It’s got the same VIN, owned by the same person, etc. I think Jesus’ body (and ours) are like that. While it certainly changes, it’s still the same in a unified sense.
Your above can be regarded as semantics.
Agreed?
You also seem to be separating the soul from the personality. Am I right, there? Are you saying a “personality” is a temporary identification of a soul with a body in a particular environment? I would use soul and personality as synonyms.
I understand Soul as the breath of YHVH and thus unchangeable. It works with the personality which is changeable, as a means through which the personality can change - or "level up" to use Gaming terminology - and is integral to the personalities ability to experience
anything.
While it is feasible that a personality can be deleted, and the soul connected with the personality to be integrated back into the unchanging completeness of YHVH, but this would be an extreme in that it would signify the personality is of absolutely no USE to YHVH.
Your understanding that the soul and the personality are synonymous [closely associated with or suggestive of something.] is understandable in that context, but they are not the exact same thing as one is grown [changeable] while the other is the other is complete.
3) What’s the balance of goodness and wickedness in the world?
You believe Jesus stated wickedness is greater than goodness in Matthew 24:37-39,
Please quote where I said I believed that.
Now, I originally answered the question about the balance of goodness and wickedness in the context of things right now. It sounds like you are focusing more on that balance at the “end” of the world. It’s possible that the balance there will be heavily on evil’s side, but I would need to think longer there to come to a conclusion.
My point was, that IF things are balanced NOW, in order for Jesus to return [as per Christian belief] things will have to deteriorate considerably, so that the impossibility of us being able to say NOW, as to the balance between good and evil, would become possible. That also would work the other way, but if things got
better to the point where it became possible to make the call, YHVH would have no need to order Jesus to return.
In line with this thinking, is the idea of Jesus and the Control Room you mentioned.
IF Jesus has been active in that regard,
THEN we should be able to say confidently that things are getting
better.
Ultimately, I think the Bible doesn’t focus on balancing good and evil, but eliminating all evil coupled with patience for those who are perishing in their evil, in hopes that they will seek escape through the Messiah. But, at some point, time will be up and evil will be wiped out.
Given YHVH is the biblically the bringer of both good and evil, this wiping out [deleting] signifies a change in YHVH, which does not align with the idea that YHVH is complete/unchangeable so that line of reasoning can be abandoned and explanation for concepts of good and evil has to derive in the personalities being grown and their lack of understanding and confusion deriving from their concepts of good and evil.
The concepts themselves require change, and perhaps this is what is meant by evil being deleted. The personalities change as the concepts change/the concepts change as the personalities change.
Having the belief that soul and personality are the same, makes the change - impossible, as far as I can tell, because the individual has no helper to activate said change, being in a position where trust in ones personality ["soul" in your regard] can be subject to those things you mentioned - hallucination, lies, et al.
Or as Bob Dylan wrote in a song;
Preacher was talking there's a sermon he gave
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied
Soul - as an aspect of unchangeable YHVH - independent helper of the growing/changing personality, allows one to trust in something greater than oneself.
[this also eludes to another private conversation we are having re the GMs]
Agreed?
So far, I have seen no clear reason from you as to why that wouldn't be the case, that you should remain in disagreement with me...
My hope is that we can come to agreement and move on along the same path of discussion...
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