Does a life have any value?

Often if you think about how big the universe is, and how we got here (evolution) makes our existance completely pointless (fun nevertheless :) ).

I was kind of wonderering what your peoples view on life and death was. Becouse pain, sorrow and fear of dieing and such are all just feelings given to us by evolution so that we wouldn't die as fast. We do no die therefore we are. Like it all started with a little cell, a little self-replicating thingy anyways. If earth would have been a slightly bit different we might not even exist.

So really, what value has a human life? And over a animal life? Ofcourse I like to live, and would like the people I know to live. But if a group of people suddenly would drop dead. No pain, no suffering, no knowledge of it. And no-one would miss them. Would that be 'bad'?

I do not really think so. Ofcourse being a human I would feel sorry if they died painfully. But life by itself has little value. It's what you make of it, what you build with it.

Discuss. ^ ~ ^ :)

You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, we are all part of the same decaying compost heap.
- Tyler Durden

I chose option 1.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, we are all part of the same decaying compost heap.
- Tyler Durden

I chose option 1.

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lol that quite intresting qoute could allso go with 2. The qoute doesn't go:

You are not special, you are not a unique snowflake, we are all part of the same decaying compost heap. You should be tortured to death.

:)

That qoute from fight club, how did it go again? "we are the all knowing all dancing crap of this world" or something?

Option 1 here also...excluding my life, of course.

lol sadistic sick fucks :)

Death is not 'bad' if it is painless. That's my short answer. But any purposefully inflicted pain is bad. Wanting to live is just an instinct... we need to seperate from it. Life is regarded too highly, and death is looked upon badly. Pain should be looked upon badly, death can be very good in lots of cases. If the human race takes on that philosophy, things might go a little better. Whenever I say this to friends at school, they always get angry at me for being 'morally wrong'.

We are completely and utterly pointless. I also believe that the entire Universe is pointless. We are simply a bi-product of the universe, just a few fancy molecules that wants to stay alive for some random reason. 3.8 billion years of evolution just to live for a few decades.

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Originally posted by Neruo
So really, what value has a human life? And over a animal life? Ofcourse I like to live, and would like the people I know to live. But if a group of people suddenly would drop dead. No pain, no suffering, no knowledge of it. And no-one would miss them. Would that be 'bad'?

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I don't really think it matters on the grand scale of things if a group of people were to suddenly drop dead. I would care as I am on the same ‘scale’ as the group of people that would have died, and I am a human being that feels sorrow, and grief, etc.

Animals are still (mostly) governed by instincts and therefore I guess would value a human life over an animal’s life, because a human is capable of thought, and many complex emotions that animals no not necessarily feel.

I chose option 1. I would feel very sorry for people who suffered during their death, but then again, what would it matter if they are just going to die afterwards and forget the whole experience!

By the way Neruo, this is a good Poll/topic- it took me AGES to find out what really I felt upon the subject!
Now if you don't mind, I'm going to hang myself as i'm feeling a little depressed about the whole thing :mrgreen:

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Originally posted by dudesuperior+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dudesuperior)</div>

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We are completely and utterly pointless. I also believe that the entire Universe is pointless. We are simply a bi-product of the universe, just a few fancy molecules that wants to stay alive for some random reason. 3.8 billion years of evolution just to live for a few decades. [/b]

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Yes. Nice way to say it :) 'bi-product'. Cool now I feel like cattle-food or something. :D


<!--QuoteBegin-dudesuperior

I don't really think it matters on the grand scale of things if a group of people were to suddenly drop dead. I would care as I am on the same ‘scale’ as the group of people that would have died, and I am a human being that feels sorrow, and grief, etc.

Animals are still (mostly) governed by instincts and therefore I guess would value a human life over an animal’s life, because a human is capable of thought, and many complex emotions that animals no not necessarily feel.

I chose option 1. I would feel very sorry for people who suffered during their death, but then again, what would it matter if they are just going to die afterwards and forget the whole experience!

By the way Neruo, this is a good Poll/topic- it took me AGES to find out what really I felt upon the subject!
Now if you don't mind, I'm going to hang myself as i'm feeling a little depressed about the whole thing :mrgreen:

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Haha =) The viewpoint of a nihilist ( or what ever it's called when you aren't a hippy :D ) might seem kind of dull or pessemistic even... However knowing the world sucks doesn't stand in the way of having fun :D

Anyway about the suffering part: Actually indeed it does not matter. It are just feelings to tell us that what ever we are doing is bad. So that we do not get tortured to death again... oh wait.. :) You get the point.

Looking at the universe, the bigger picture, it doesn't really matter if a bunch of molecules gets it's eyes poked out with a rusty fork. I do know that actually it's all a bunch of human made nonsense. It's only of importance within the mind of a person. So indeed, if the person is no more, is it ok if it was suffering? Hmm. I guess suffering sucks allways, at the time. But not like it matters, we could allso start crying about the billions of people that died and had pain, and about the billions that will die.

So objectively I would say 1: Looking at the bigger picture it's all irrelevant.
As a human I say 2: People shouldn't suffer. And little kittens neighter! :' (

^__^

Sorry humans- i'm gonna have to change my opinion about saving people over animals- :mrgreen:

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Well, I won't say that death is bad per se, but I will say that I like the idea of living better than the idea of dying...Personally, I think being alive getting to do basically what I want, being in love, and being a generally happy person is much better than eternal nothingness or whatever else there is in store for us. I mean, if there is a hell, I'm screwed.....

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
Well, I won't say that death is bad per se, but I will say that I like the idea of living better than the idea of dying...Personally, I think being alive getting to do basically what I want, being in love, and being a generally happy person is much better than eternal nothingness or whatever else there is in store for us. I mean, if there is a hell, I'm screwed.....

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lol yeah we all are. I bet the egyptians were right after all, so we are all screwed anyway :D... Nah don't worry, there isn't a hell.

Anyway: Ofcourse we all like to live ^___^ But looking at it from a neutral point of view. Like with no emotions what so ever. It wouldn't really matter. Atoms stay atoms. N shit =)

And nice pussy.... dudesuperior that is.. the picture of the kitten :)

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Originally posted by Neruo
It's what you make of it, what you build with it.

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You answered your own question.

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Originally posted by Muezza


You answered your own question.

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That is my subjective, human oppinion yes. But looking at it from another angle, looking at how big the universe is and what evolution did, objectively you could say a life is 'nothing'.

A living and a dead person are the same molecules. If you were the sieze of an atom and looked at the world, you couldn't see the difference between life or death.

Well, I like how you can only combine thinking of life as valuable and death as a bad thing in this poll. How about life is valuable, but death still is overrated? Life is valuable because you can feel joy and pain, and cause them in others. You can marvel at the world, stand in awe of it's beauty. You can't do these things in death (with the possible exception of spiritual life, reincarnation, etc. but I'll go with the general opinion here), but that doesn't mean that death is something to shun or be afraid of. I mean, if there's nothing after death, you don't have to worry about a thing! Just rest awaits you, that's not horrifying or terrible.

I'd say life is valuable, but death isn't a bad thing. I'll certainly say it's silly to be afraid of it when it's going to happen anyway. The worst part of torture isn't the pain, it's the fear. And in this case, there's not even pain to be afraid about. So why subject yourself to that other experience?

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Originally posted by Jalexxi
Well, I like how you can only combine thinking of life as valuable and death as a bad thing in this poll. How about life is valuable, but death still is overrated? Life is valuable because you can feel joy and pain, and cause them in others. You can marvel at the world, stand in awe of it's beauty. You can't do these things in death (with the possible exception of spiritual life, reincarnation, etc. but I'll go with the general opinion here), but that doesn't mean that death is something to shun or be afraid of. I mean, if there's nothing after death, you don't have to worry about a thing! Just rest awaits you, that's not horrifying or terrible.

I'd say life is valuable, but death isn't a bad thing. I'll certainly say it's silly to be afraid of it when it's going to happen anyway. The worst part of torture isn't the pain, it's the fear. And in this case, there's not even pain to be afraid about. So why subject yourself to that other experience?

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I think life has value . It has value to people who care about you . Remember when you were young , like real young , and when someone killed a bug or your pet died you felt sadness ? You didn't feel that sadness because of the pain it felt , you felt it because the creatures life is lost , and no matter how small and insignificant it was you still feel that feeling inside . But the as you grow older you see more and more death , become accustomed to its presence in everyday life . Its just something that happends .

When someone you know dies of natural causes , you still feel sadness , not because they are now at rest , but because you can never talk to them again , maybe you didnt say what you wanted to say before they died . But to the person who died , what you did or didnt say is irrelevant (assuming when you die you actually die and dont "live forever eternally" :roll: ) becasue they feel nothing , no sadness , no pain , they are no longer in existance , their body is just a symbol of who they were , who they really were is then only left behind on your mind . But you may also feel resolved , as they have told their story of life , all may look back and read their book of life and take on board what they found to be as most improtant about that person . Its kind of selfish when you think about it , feeling sad for someone who died , you think of how it effects you and not what they achieved .

Any , back to the topic . Noone can prove whether life has valuse , it is up to the individual to decide what was gained from that life and whether it was good that they lived or not . Ill try to express my opinion of the importance of life . If you look at what man has achieved , what we have discovered about this universe , and also what we have done to the world and each other to get here you can look at it two ways . You can say , 'life is senseless , it only brings violence and pain and destruction' but then why is it that you feel that way , surely you must then care about life and existence so much to have those feelings . Because without life , if earth existed as it is today but with no life on it , you would shuerly think it such a waste that noone can experience it and enjoy it . Evolution also plays a part in this , for if we didn't care so much about life we would never have survived as a species . Looking back at prehistoric man , he obviously cared for life . Burial sites are numerous which show a respect for that persons life they had .

So , i think life is important and has value , and even though pain and suffering may spoil it to an extent , without life the entire universe is a futile waste of space .

Darkmatic, that was the most eloquent thing I've heard anyone say anywhere online for a long time now. I think we have a "case closed" on this one!

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Originally posted by Darkmatic

Remember when you were young , like real young , and when someone killed a bug or your pet died you felt sadness ? You didn't feel that sadness because of the pain it felt , you felt it because the creatures life is lost , and no matter how small and insignificant it was you still feel that feeling inside .
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nope can't remember that. :)

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Originally posted by Neruo


nope can't remember that. :)

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I can. I think I still feel that way, from time to time when something like that dies. I mean, I guess it depends on who you are...

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn


I can. I think I still feel that way, from time to time when something like that dies. I mean, I guess it depends on who you are...

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Yes. And subjectively, I care. I do. :)

But objectively speaking, does life have value? Ethics and such are human creations. From the point of view of man, it has no value, if it had no value (to us) we would have extincted a long time ago.
From the point of like a neutral power, a thing that is above everything, like the essence of the universe, does (human) life matter? I do not think so.
And that though often makes me think 'lolwtfzomfg'. That's why believing in a god is so convinient for people, god would care, so that would be rather plesant and less 'lolwtfzomfg'.

btw I am kind of unclear with useing life And death.... Well I guess if life has no value, nor has it ending, and the other way around :)

however 'life' is more a generalisation, if would look at the world from a bigger scale on the level of the universe.
With 'death' I ment the ending of a life by an other human being: the ethnical side do the question or life really matters at all.

:)

I agree with that,^ yes. I mean, people di every day and it doesn't really matter. Objectively, life doesn't really have any meaning to anyone but the individual.

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Originally posted by Muezza
Darkmatic, that was the most eloquent thing I've heard anyone say anywhere online for a long time now. I think we have a "case closed" on this one!

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lol , thanks for the compliment . :)

A friend of mine died a year ago from a sudden and unknown illness and it shocked everybody. I still can't believe I'll never see him again. At his funeral hundreds and maybe a thousand or so showed up. The seats ran out quickly and soon there wasn't enough room to even stand, i ended up standing all the way in the back of the balcony of this church. It made me change the way i thought about life. It really is amazing that a 17 year old kid had such an impact on so many people. And he did, he was one of those people who could just open thier mouth and everyone would start laughing. Unbelieveable really how great of a personality he had. But the whole thing made me realize how meaningful life is, because in the end it's all we have and the only thing that is truely given to us. I think if you believe life is totally pointless you are letting it become that. And I'm not religious i just believe in life, and death is the end of life. Death isn't "bad" but life is so much more valuable than anything else there is.

But animals can die. :) lol Unless theyre almost extinct, their lives ARE pretty pointless. Sorry we're conscious.

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Originally posted by resonate
A friend of mine died a year ago from a sudden and unknown illness and it shocked everybody. I still can't believe I'll never see him again. At his funeral hundreds and maybe a thousand or so showed up. The seats ran out quickly and soon there wasn't enough room to even stand, i ended up standing all the way in the back of the balcony of this church. It made me change the way i thought about life. It really is amazing that a 17 year old kid had such an impact on so many people. And he did, he was one of those people who could just open thier mouth and everyone would start laughing. Unbelieveable really how great of a personality he had. But the whole thing made me realize how meaningful life is, because in the end it's all we have and the only thing that is truely given to us. I think if you believe life is totally pointless you are letting it become that. And I'm not religious i just believe in life, and death is the end of life. Death isn't "bad" but life is so much more valuable than anything else there is. *

But animals can die. *:) *lol Unless theyre almost extinct, their lives ARE pretty pointless. Sorry we're conscious.

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Sorry about your loss....One of my best friends was murdered over the summer at 17, so I can see what you mean.

I've been thinking about death a lot recently, so i figure ill just throw this out there.

We certainly won't be remembered by other humans for very long, but that doesn't mean we don't exist post-mortem. If time really is the 4th dimension, then our lost friends are no more dead than we are alive.. they're just 'that way,' when we're stuck going 'this way.' According to my personal beliefs, best-case scenario is that when you die you can perceive time as one great moment, instead of the micro-moment that is the present. You can look and say, hey, there's me! And there's thomas jefferson! And way over there is the big bang! Worst case scenario, everything ive experienced so far in life makes me pretty sure that when you die, your brain completely introverts, and you should at least be able to meet the archetypes of all the people you've known, and just hang out with them until you're ready to just stop existing. The worst case scenario still ends in complete bliss, the only downside is that externally, none of it is real. I would be content with either, really.

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Originally posted by Dangeruss
I've been thinking about death a lot recently, so i figure ill just throw this out there.

We certainly won't be remembered by other humans for very long, but that doesn't mean we don't exist post-mortem. If time really is the 4th dimension, then our lost friends are no more dead than we are alive.. they're just 'that way,' when we're stuck going 'this way.' According to my personal beliefs, best-case scenario is that when you die you can perceive time as one great moment, instead of the micro-moment that is the present. You can look and say, hey, there's me! And there's thomas jefferson! And way over there is the big bang! Worst case scenario, everything ive experienced so far in life makes me pretty sure that when you die, your brain completely introverts, and you should at least be able to meet the archetypes of all the people you've known, and just hang out with them until you're ready to just stop existing. The worst case scenario still ends in complete bliss, the only downside is that externally, none of it is real. I would be content with either, really.

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But what if when you die... you just cease to think completely. You haven't discussed this possibility. Our brains just stop to function and we become nothing. Back to the place we were before we were a foetus. Some people might argue that it's impossible, but that's just because our brains aren't advanced enough to comprehend it; just as theyre not advanced enough to understand infinity. Personally I'm not sure wether to believe that'll happen or not... do you have any evidence to back up your ideas?

The only evidence I have unfortunately comes from one near-death experience and two psychedelic-induced ego deaths. At best I have a very vague idea of the truth, at worst I'm just completely wrong, but that's ok. I've got plenty of time to dig deeper.

my 'worst-case scenario' ends with ceasing to think entirely, as you suggest. I mean that while dying, it's common to 'see your life flashing before your eyes.' Before the brain shuts off, it ignores all sensory input and focuses on the archetypes. The people you know and the things you've done leave a lot behind in your mind that isn't normally perceivable except in dreams and in dissociated thought. It's certainly possible that before you cease to think, the brain contents the mind as best it can by showing it everything it wants to see, so at least you can end on a good note.

Assuming that consciousness is possible after death, I don't think it would be anything like the human perception of consciousness. We would have to go from the grey matter in our heads to all the matter in the entire universe, and so nothing we know right now would be anything like it, really.

I still don't think we can ever cease to exist after having once been. We stay in the past, in our little (e.g. 1988-2067) microcosm, doing exactly what we did during our living days. Theoretically we could become once again perceivable if a consciousness existed that could transcend the linear flow of time.

It's all too much for me to understand :? but it makes a little bit of sense, right?

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Originally posted by Dangeruss
The only evidence I have unfortunately comes from one near-death experience and two psychedelic-induced ego deaths. At best I have a very vague idea of the truth, at worst I'm just completely wrong, but that's ok. I've got plenty of time to dig deeper.

my 'worst-case scenario' ends with ceasing to think entirely, as you suggest. I mean that while dying, it's common to 'see your life flashing before your eyes.' Before the brain shuts off, it ignores all sensory input and focuses on the archetypes. The people you know and the things you've done leave a lot behind in your mind that isn't normally perceivable except in dreams and in dissociated thought. It's certainly possible that before you cease to think, the brain contents the mind as best it can by showing it everything it wants to see, so at least you can end on a good note.

Assuming that consciousness is possible after death, I don't think it would be anything like the human perception of consciousness. We would have to go from the grey matter in our heads to all the matter in the entire universe, and so nothing we know right now would be anything like it, really.

I still don't think we can ever cease to exist after having once been. We stay in the past, in our little (e.g. 1988-2067) microcosm, doing exactly what we did during our living days. Theoretically we could become once again perceivable if a consciousness existed that could transcend the linear flow of time.

It's all too much for me to understand *:? *but it makes a little bit of sense, right?

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Yes, it all makes sense. All we can do though is just hope it's not hell.

"A mind not to be chang’d by place or time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven."
-Satan, Paradise Lost book i

have a little faith, I'm sure it'll be alright in the end :)

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Originally posted by Dangeruss
"A mind not to be chang’d by place or time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven."
-Satan, Paradise Lost book i

have a little faith, I'm sure it'll be alright in the end *:)

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All we can do is hope.

Well, when you die, of couse it would probably just be blank. I mean, even if there was life after death, it could only exist in the form of awareness. A soul without a body has no storage mechanism, so you couldn't remember things, or even percieve what was going on. And, if you could somehow come back and tell everyone about your experience, you would not be able to remember it.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
Well, when you die, of couse it would probably just be blank. I mean, even if there was life after death, it could only exist in the form of awareness. A soul without a body has no storage mechanism, so you couldn't remember things, or even percieve what was going on. And, if you could somehow come back and tell everyone about your experience, you would not be able to remember it.

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Thats why if you only believe in the physical world , there is no such thing as a soul or an afterlife , consciousness is just all in your brain and the complex chemical reactions combined with the ability to think , remember , and our senses and feelings , all these mesh together into something we call consciousness . Once your brain ceaces to function , these reactions and senses stop and your conscious falls apart into nothingness , like when you goto sleep and dont dream , except forever . Sorry if it sounds bleak , but thats what i think might happen when you die . Its not a belief , just a thought so i am open to a change if serious evidence of a 'soul' were presented . But then , even if we did have a soul , whos to say that wouldn't die when we do . It was 'born' when we were , so obviously a soul can be created , and thus it must also beable to be destroyed .

Yes a life has value.

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Originally posted by D.Jenkins
Yes a life has value.

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in Your oppinion. :)

Once when I was driving a car I had the overwhelming perception of time kind of juddering to a halt. I had a huge adrenalin rush and had to pull over and pull myself together. At the time I thought my brain/mind had had some kind of death simulation (perhaps brought about by the driving or something) but now I'm not so sure. I'll never forget that feeling though - it was like an awareness of the time flow slowing and stopping. I felt tiny compared to the power of time. Hard to explain but felt 'true'.

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Originally posted by Crow
Once when I was driving a car I had the overwhelming perception of time kind of juddering to a halt. I had a huge adrenalin rush and had to pull over and pull myself together. At the time I thought my brain/mind had had some kind of death simulation (perhaps brought about by the driving or something) but now I'm not so sure. I'll never forget that feeling though - it was like an awareness of the time flow slowing and stopping. I felt tiny compared to the power of time. Hard to explain but felt 'true'.

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Ah intresting... maybe it was like a survival system. Just kind of weird why you got it all of a sudden... Maybe that suger on your McWaffle wasn't sugar but coke :D

Anyway, the subconsious certainly has some tricks up it's sleeve not to get pwned :)

Life in itself has no meaning, and if a person, or even a group of people, were to be killed quickly and painlessly and missed by no one, then in my opinion, it wouldn't matter in any way whatsoever.

However, when someone dies, they are always missed by at least someone (practically) and i'm guessing dying without feeling any pain isn't easy either.

Apart from that, remember that while all life is meaningless in the end, you can at least give some quasi-meaning to it, whereas in death you can't do anything at all. In other words, life is pointless, but not as pointless as death. ^.^

I chose the third option btw.

Over the weekend, my brother came home from a friend's house carrying a dog. At first, we thought the dog might be OK. He was frozen, almost solid from his waist down. Once we got him in our house, and thawed out and warm, we were able to properly assess the damage. We saw that he was sporting a broken back along with a floating ribcage fracture. The poor thing kept trying to walk, but tragically, wasn't able. It was a sad thing to see. I mean, the dog was scared and rightly so. We soon saw the only alternative: we had to put him down. No animal shelters or animal hospitals were open on Saturday evening or on Sunday, so we had to have my fiance's father do it. The only thing I regret about putting this dog down was the fact that we couldn't do it sooner. It was in pain all night, and I felt so sad that we couldn't do anything about it. Sure, life has value. A lot of value, but then again, so does death. Death is of equal importance and it exists for a reason. So when something dies, I feel sad but in some cases I understand that death is the only thing that save something or someone.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
Over the weekend, my brother came home from a friend's house carrying a dog. At first, we thought the dog might be OK. He was frozen, almost solid from his waist down. Once we got him in our house, and thawed out and warm, we were able to properly assess the damage. We saw that he was sporting a broken back along with a floating ribcage fracture. The poor thing kept trying to walk, but tragically, wasn't able. It was a sad thing to see. I mean, the dog was scared and rightly so. We soon saw the only alternative: we had to put him down. No animal shelters or animal hospitals were open on Saturday evening or on Sunday, so we had to have my fiance's father do it. The only thing I regret about putting this dog down was the fact that we couldn't do it sooner. It was in pain all night, and I felt so sad that we couldn't do anything about it. Sure, life has value. A lot of value, but then again, so does death. Death is of equal importance and it exists for a reason. So when something dies, I feel sad but in some cases I understand that death is the only thing that save something or someone.

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I allways feel sorry for animals. Suffering isn't cool... God thing you put him down, so he didn't have to suffer anymore.
Allso, good that your brother brought the dog, so he didn't have to die even shittier.

So, wouldn't the dog be better off shot right before he broke all those bones? He would feel no pain.

damn sad story :(

^Perhaps, but maybe if the dog's owner had taken better care of him, he would never have had to suffer, or die.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
^Perhaps, but maybe if the dog's owner had taken better care of him, he would never have had to suffer, or die.

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Yeah well people suck <=/