do you think the jewish state israel should exist? please vote in my poll yes or no and if you can leave a message sayhing why you voted that way.
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do you think the jewish state israel should exist? please vote in my poll yes or no and if you can leave a message sayhing why you voted that way.
I voted NO. I don't have to explain why.
I voted no also. However, I will explain why when I have some more time to give a valid response.
It's kind of like trying to kick someone out of their seat at the lunch table because it was your seat last year.
I vote no.
I vote yes
and because I love stupid metaphores
Its sort of like accidently hitting the nuke button, but not cancelling it because its better to stay the course
This could get nasty...
I vote no.
To continue with the metaphors - If you build your house on an ant nest, then poke sticks at them, don't complain when you get bitten.
Sure, but not by stealing some other people's Land.
Israel was conceived by Lord Balfour who was paying back the Rothchild Banking Enterprise for the German Gold Reserves that were transferred to England during the first World War. The Palestinian People were not consulted. England felt that they won the World War and thus they had every right to Rule the World as they choose fit. They gave the Jews the Land of Palestine to pay off the German Jews for their Treason. The whole deal stinks and no amount of time will undo the basic injustice.
Now, if England would like to clear off Scottland or Wales and present that the Jewish People for their Homeland, that would be fine. Or if the American Fundamentalists who believe that God will not give them their precious Rapture until there is a Jewish State, if they should clear out Idaho or Oregon and give that to the Jews, then that would be fine. But to send tanks and bulldozers into Palestine and chase the people into refugee camps and imprison their young men and assassinate generation after generation of Palestinian Leadership -- that is frankly a crime against humanity. The World did not tolerate Hitler's bid for Master Race Status and campaign of Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide, and so why does the World tolerate the same abuses when they are perpetrated by the Zionist Jews?
Jeez, what the Jews should do is outright buy a chunk of property in Africa. Those nations are so poor and some of them are so large. They would gladly sell off a chunk considering how much money the Jews have to offer for it. Just think of how much Money the Jews spend bribing American Politicians each election year -- why, that much money could buy a piece of Africa, on the coast, double the size of present day Israel. But I suppose they don't want it if they have to come by it honestly. To them being the Chosen People of God means you should be able to rape, pillage and steal and fully expect to get away with it. Like the Germans thought it was okay to be the Master Race. You know, it only shows that the British and the Americans were really no different from the Nazis...in the end they all play the same Super Power Game.
If Israel is allowed to exist, then a nation for all-Whites, all-blacks, all-Asians, ect, should exist, too.
Otherwise it's racist.
Perhaps. But they totally fucked it up. So I voted no.
Let's give it to the Tibetans.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Of course they deserve a nation of their own. Yet, you can't justify taking away someone else's land simply because someone else wants it and they've got the big guns behind them.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Sure, but not by stealing some other people's Land.
I also vote no - the whole middle east shouldn't exist, either. They can't stop fighting amongst themselves - their holy wars have been going on for thousands of years. Give it up, people.
I said no, because as it is at the moment, it is pretty much the cause of most of the conflict in the world today. TBH, seeing as neithter Greece nor Turkey seem to be able to agree on who should have Cyprus, why didn't they clear both of them off the island and make that Israel?! But, seeing as we can't go back and stop it, lets fix it. As for how, I'm not too sure, but thats what needs working out.
Erm...sorry to be a bit nit-picky but England, Scotland and Wales are countries in their own rights, but they are part of the United Kingdom (Which consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). Would have been better to phrase it "Now, if the UK would like to clear off Scotland or Wales and present that...blah blah blah..."Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Now, if England would like to clear off Scottland or Wales and present that the Jewish People for their Homeland, that would be fine.
Although, at the time, the area was a British Colony, and so this was probably a similar situation to what you suggest! But yeah, I'm going to shut up before I dig a very deep hole...
Haha...wow. That has to be one of the most insensitive and moronic statements I've ever heard. Do you even have a clue as to why there is so much unrest in the Middle East? I suspect not...Quote:
Originally posted by burns91
the whole middle east shouldn't exist, either. They can't stop fighting amongst themselves - their holy wars have been going on for thousands of years. Give it up, people.
But yeah...we should just nuke the whole Middle East and get rid of the fuckers...yeah? :roll:
I don't know about nuking them....we still have to go in and get the oil afterwards right? Napalm might be a bit cleaner. :idea:Quote:
Originally posted by Aquanina
But yeah...we should just nuke the whole Middle East and get rid of the fuckers...yeah? :roll:
So I suppose you think it's a good thing that most terrorists and suicide bombers come from the Middle East? They want to kill us all! There will never be peace there.Quote:
Originally posted by Aquanina
Haha...wow. That has to be one of the most insensitive and moronic statements I've ever heard. Do you even have a clue as to why there is so much unrest in the Middle East? I suspect not...
But yeah...we should just nuke the whole Middle East and get rid of the fuckers...yeah? :roll:
I didn't post to start an argument, only to express my opinion (which I believe what the whole point of this topic). And as a DG, maybe you should not be so "insensitive."
The real problem here is not with israel or palestine, but with god. lets get rid of that asshole, and all the problems will be solved.
How about Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber? Where were they from? Oh right, the US. Sheesh, I almost forgot.Quote:
Originally posted by burns91
So I suppose you think it's a good thing that most terrorists and suicide bombers come from the Middle East? They want to kill us all! There will never be peace there.
I didn't post to start an argument, only to express my opinion (which I believe what the whole point of this topic). And as a DG, maybe you should not be so "insensitive."
Don't label an entire group of nations as terrorists. We're having problems with extremists and fundamentalits, not Middle Easterners and Islamics.
I couldn't find the "Bomb the fuck out of them" option , so i just chose no . But seriously , they should cool it over there and just chill out . 8)
Maybe you "almost forgot" to read my entire post where I said "most" terrorists and suicide bombers. Read the whole thing before making smart-ass comments, please.Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker
How about Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber? Where were they from? Oh right, the US. Sheesh, I almost forgot.
Those cases are much more rare and in those cases they are not a group. While maybe warped, they were intelligent and again usually work, if not on their own but a very limited base of people.Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker
How about Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber? Where were they from? Oh right, the US. Sheesh, I almost forgot.
Don't label an entire group of nations as terrorists. We're having problems with extremists and fundamentalits, not Middle Easterners and Islamics.
They were not brainwashed by any religion.
Well, that IS what Democracy is all about, though many people don't seem to understand that. Woodrow Wilson, almost a hundred years ago came out with the much publicized notion that Democracy consists of and leads to Ethnic Self Determination. That should have horrified the World, but it didn't. It should have horrified Americans, as America is a very ethnically diverse community, but it didn't. And then after Adolf Hitler took Wilson's Doctrine under advisement and with so very few changes turned it into NAZIism, it should have horrified the World, but it didn't... everyone pretended that the NAZIs and now they pretend the ZIONists, and the Muslims now in Europe are somehow aberrations to at the processes of Democracy must inevitably lead to.Quote:
Originally posted by RyanParis
If Israel is allowed to exist, then a nation for all-Whites, all-blacks, all-Asians, ect, should exist, too.
Otherwise it's racist.
Democratic Institutions are in their very essential Nature Ethnocentric and Racist, set to put Race against Race, Class against Class, Group against Group.
Democracy is self-defined as a system that allows 51% to tyrannize over the other 49%, but often it is worse than that. In Parliamentary Systems often no single party can attain an electoral plurality and so Governments are formed of Coalitions. The way Coalitions often work out is that a sizeable Minority Party can hold out for disproportionate Power. It is how the NAZIs achieved control of German Politics, and how the Zionists have achieved control of Israeli Politics.
The advantage of Democracy is supposed to be that it provides a means by which the People are represented in Government. But do the Math. The Losers are NOT represented, are they? 49% or even more of the people have their interests and concerns hijacked by either slim majorities, or minorities who were able to twist arms into power.
We need to go back to having a King of the World that institutes a Bureaucratic Government open entirely in terms of Merit. No longer must we be enslaved by the forces of Bribery and Ethnic Bigotry, which is all that Democracy reduces down to.
What we have in Cyprus is Political Instablity. You see, back before the settlements that transformed the World after the First World War, almost the entire Near East was within the jurisdictions of the Ottoman Empire. When England, France and the United States took it upon themselves to carve up this vast Ottoman Empire, unthinkingly, they created a situation in which nobody involved felt that the new borders established were actually legitimate. Why should they? It was not their decision, and in many respects it was not their War. England, France and America wanted to punish the Turks for having chosen the Losing Side and so broke a huge Political Jurisdiction into tiny and unworkable pieces. And the People involved should fall in line why?Quote:
Originally posted by Dickie
I said no, because as it is at the moment, it is pretty much the cause of most of the conflict in the world today. TBH, seeing as neithter Greece nor Turkey seem to be able to agree on who should have Cyprus, why didn't they clear both of them off the island and make that Israel?! But, seeing as we can't go back and stop it, lets fix it. As for how, I'm not too sure, but thats what needs working out.
Erm...sorry to be a bit nit-picky but England, Scotland and Wales are countries in their own rights, but they are part of the United Kingdom (Which consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). Would have been better to phrase it "Now, if the UK would like to clear off Scotland or Wales and present that...blah blah blah..." *
Although, at the time, the area was a British Colony, and so this was probably a similar situation to what you suggest! But yeah, I'm going to shut up before I dig a very deep hole...
History shows that it usually takes about 120 Years for a disrupted Political Jurisdiction to stabilize and achieve what is perceived as popular Legitimacy. Any Stateman would think twice before disturbing that sense of Legitimacy. But Democracies do not elect Stateman, do they? We get the George W. Bushes. We get Actors. We get loud mouth professional wrestlers. We get people who never got higher than a C in social studies.
So, yes, there is a struggle in Cyprus. There is a struggle in Cyprus because people almost a century ago could not leave well enough alone.
And about Scottland and Wales being Sovereign Countries. Well, so what. The Ottoman Empire was sovereign. And the the Palestinian People as a nation were promised Sovereignty. If the English can so disregard the wishes and ambitions of the Palestinian People, then by what new Principle should they give a rat's ass what the Nations of Scottland or Wales think about any equal injustice done to them.
You see, that is what is ultimately wrong with the International Support being given to Isreal, Britain and America as they conduct their War against Palestine and the rest of the Near East, that it sets up a precedent whereby it excuses any de facto Super Power that would desire to commit any stupid injustice simply because they have the Military Power to get away with it. The World fought the NAZIs, so why should we let Britain, America and Israel get away with the same crap?
Regardless, your blanket statements about the state of the Middle East were wholly unjustified. That was my point.Quote:
Originally posted by burns91
Maybe you "almost forgot" to read my entire post where I said "most" terrorists and suicide bombers. Read the whole thing before making smart-ass comments, please.
I suppose you think that Katrina was a good thing because it wiped out the ghettos of New Orleans and made way for the rich folk to buy up all the prime real estate?
About Tibet. Many people complain that China has assumed jurisdiction. But we need to understand that China has long political memory. In the 12th Century the tribes that populated Tibet threw in with the Mongolians from the North in their invasion of China. At the time Delegates of Imperial China had warned the Tibetan Tribesman that there would be consequences for invading China. Well, they weren't lying, were they?Quote:
Originally posted by mongreloctopus
Let's give it to the Tibetans.
Then we need to examine who can do the better job managing Tibet. Before the Chinese, Tibet was in the grips of a bunch of fraudulent Holy Men -- scotch drinking, ciggerette smoking "Holy Men". Even if one assumes they take their published Religion seriously, we can evaluate it against the Higher Religions of the World and see Tibetanism as just so much competitive Witchcraft... and a sexist witchcraft, because they allow women to have no part in it. Oh, except as sexual objects. We can look at Tibetan Tantric Doctrine and find that the Tibetan Religion has made a virtue out of the predatory rape of women by these so-called "religious" Monks.
So let the Dalai Lama compose his pretty books... I suspect he largely plagiarizes... using all the cliches that are the common language of all those with an elementary education in Eastern Philosophy. But Tibet is in better hands with the Chinese.
Hey... why is it that all the comments are from NO people but the votes are coming in YES. I smell a rat. The YES people must be Jews.. or other people absent enough in their moral sense while being clever enough to scheme and cheat, who are registering multiple votes.
Well, yes, they DO want to kill us all, that is UNTIL WE SURRENDER.Quote:
Originally posted by burns91
So I suppose you think it's a good thing that most terrorists and suicide bombers come from the Middle East? They want to kill us all! There will never be peace there.
I didn't post to start an argument, only to express my opinion (which I believe what the whole point of this topic). And as a DG, maybe you should not be so "insensitive."
We perpetrated an injustice, and yes, to make all of the bad consequences of this injustice go way, we might have to Surrender and make amends.
Zionism and Zionists Sympathizizers committed every Injustice consciously and with their eyes wide open. The Democracies that gave them the opportunities to commit these Evils never tried to stop these Evils. It was not as though the Palestinians were quiet and uncomplaining. The Palestinian Leadership was vocal in its complaints and petitions for redress for some 30 years before the first act of overt Terrorism.
They appealed for Justice and we spit in their face. They warned us and we spit in their face. Now they finally bring War to our door and the idiots amoung us are trying to maintain that it is all their fault. It is all were not so Life and Death it would be ludicrous.
The largest and most destructive Wars in the History of the World have largely been either Barbaric or Secular. Just look at Europe. Enlightened Atheists have been in charge of Europe since the French Revolution. Things have only gone from bad to worst, no? The Russian Revolution -- Secular. The Chinese Revolution -- Secular. The Cambodian Massecres and all of the Ethnic Cleansing in Africa -- Secular.Quote:
Originally posted by mongreloctopus
The real problem here is not with israel or palestine, but with god. *lets get rid of that asshole, and all the problems will be solved.
Besides, your problem is not with God but with a few particular Religions that have hijacked their Institutions away from any Godly Influence. the Jews have not had a Temple in 2000 years. The Jews have no central Religious Authority -- there is no Jewish Pope. What now passes for Jewish Religion is a Worship of Real Estate and an Affirmation of Racial Supremacy. The Higher Religions of the World utterly reject any kinship with such preposterous assertions.
As for the Muslims. Do you really think that their Religions has anything to do with them being angry about having their leaders and children being assassinated and their houses bulldozed, and being interred into Refugee Camps for 50 years at a time. Yes, it would be great, for the Zionists, if the Muslims had a Religion that would persuade them to roll up and die every time Satan went on the Offensive; however, can we really suppose their View of God is so distorted if they have persuaded themselves that God must somehow and sometime finally remember, appreciate and uphold Justice.
Well, the problem is the selective use of the word Terrorist. How are the Israeli Assassination Teams not Terrorist. How are American Missiles indiscriminately slaughtering families having Sunday Dinner in Pakistan not Terrorist.Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker
How about Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber? Where were they from? Oh right, the US. Sheesh, I almost forgot.
Don't label an entire group of nations as terrorists. We're having problems with extremists and fundamentalits, not Middle Easterners and Islamics.
It has gotten crazy, when the Americans use the word "terrorist" to designate irregular militia troops operating in Iraq persuant to a unalateral and what we now was an entirely unprovoked War instigated by the United States and its lacky Great Britain.
And it is annoying that we must hear Politians talk endlessly about the 'cowardly' terrorists. These are politicians who used family influence to hide from War when they were young enough to be expected to fight. But they call people who brave certain death to be 'cowards'. It simply is not right. Such lies must certainly offend the ears of God whether God approves of the Struggle or not. Even if they are wrong a thousand ways, they certainly are not cowards.
Now, Americans and Israelis who send missiles down from a mile high in the sky, knowing full well that they will be killing innocents along with their questionably valuable targets. Are these not the true terrorists and cowards.
The Americans and the Israelis hide behind Techno War like spoiled sissy boys behind a fat and stupid mother's skirts. If it were a Man to Man fight, Palestine would have had their Nation back 43 years ago.
What when the Zionists kick you off your property and consign you to a Refugee Camp. Will you be so ready to chill out?Quote:
Originally posted by Darkmatic
I couldn't find the "Bomb the fuck out of them" option , so i just chose no . But seriously , they should cool it over there and just chill out . 8)
I voted yes and will say it publicly bash me is you want I have my reasons. I am sadden by the fact there are so many nos. I am disappointed in many events that have taken place lately doesn't mean I think Israel should not exist. Darn some of the post here remind me that maybe I am one of the few that believe in a God around these parts.
Well, I honestly think that a family of jews should just knock down your door and throw you and your children out on the straight, with the explanation that God loves them, and that you and your family are second rate and subhuman.Quote:
Originally posted by ravenqueen
I voted yes and will say it publicly bash me is you want I have my reasons. I am sadden by the fact there are so many nos. I am disappointed in many events that have taken place lately doesn't mean I think Israel should not exist. Darn some of the post here remind me that maybe I am one of the few that believe in a God around these parts.
That is what you would deserve. If you would take fairness away from others, you should have it taken from you.
I honestly think that if "The Jews" did that to me, then I would be praying to God for support and forgiveness for those who think they have the right to decide that I love You, My Lord, less than them. I have done nothing to hurt "The Jews" I love all. That is my mission. To be open minded and to accept all. God is the judge, not me. Fairness is not an issue here because most of the human life has not been fair. Fairness means "equal" there is nothing in this world that is "fair". So its not just Jews who would knock on my door to kick me out. It will anyone who thinks they are better then me. I respect Jewish people and embrace them. I also no matter how it sounds respect Muslims. God has chosen to place us in the places we are. Did we chose them? No we didn't we didn't chose where we landed. So put yourself in the position of thoses that you are glad that your not . What kept you from being there?Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Well, I honestly think that a family of jews should just knock down your door and throw you and your children out on the straight, with the explanation that God loves them, and that you and your family are second rate and subhuman. *
That is what you would deserve. * If you would take fairness away from others, you should have it taken from you.
Okay, so you have no problem with Jews. Do you also have no problem with other thieves, intruders, invaders and marauders.Quote:
Originally posted by ravenqueen
I honestly think that if *"The Jews" did that to me, then I would be praying to God *for support *and forgiveness for those who think they have the right to decide that I love You, My Lord, less than them. I have done nothing to hurt *"The Jews" I love all. That is my mission. To be open minded and to accept all. God is the judge, not me. Fairness is not an issue here because most of the human life has not been fair. Fairness means "equal" there is nothing in this world that is "fair". So its not just Jews who would knock on my door to kick me out. It will anyone who thinks they are better then me. I respect Jewish people and embrace them. I also no matter how it sounds respect Muslims. God has chosen to place us in the places we are. Did we chose them? No we didn't we didn't chose where we landed. So put yourself in the position of thoses that you are glad that your not . What kept you from being there?
And then we need to ask you why you hate the Palestinians. This is not just a question about letting Jews be the Chosen People. It is about letting the Jews play out their Delusional Fantacy at the expense of the Palestinian People.
Your indulgence to the Jews plays out as hate and sensitivity for the Palestinians. You are not allowed to be openhearted with the Jews without being reminded that you are participating in a Crimes against the Palestinian People.
Again, I pray to God that you and your family might begin to feel some of the sufferings of the Palestinian People until you might begin to understand something about Moral Responsibility.
What I don't understand: the United States helps the bandit state of Israel kill it's enemies, but the United States didn't help Nazi Germany.
Ariel Sharon might as well be United States president.
Ryan and Brady...awesome replies.
And Burns...what is the point of you addressing the fact that I am a DG and should be more sensitive? You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine. Am I not allowed to have an opinion because I am a Dream Guide? Haha...please.....
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have an opinion, but since DG's are supposed to set an example of fair play, calling someone's response moronic doesn't really seem as "sensitive" as you want everyone else to be. I don't want to argue with you, but you didn't even want to give a reason you voted the way you did, so maybe think twice before cutting others down who did voice their reasons. 8)Quote:
Originally posted by Aquanina
And Burns...what is the point of you addressing the fact that I am a DG and should be more sensitive? You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine. Am I not allowed to have an opinion because I am a Dream Guide? Haha...please.....
Haha. Nice sunglasses.Quote:
Originally posted by burns91
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have an opinion, but since DG's are supposed to set an example of fair play, calling someone's response moronic doesn't really seem as "sensitive" as you want everyone else to be. I don't want to argue with you, but you didn't even want to give a reason you voted the way you did, so maybe think twice before cutting others down who did voice their reasons. *8)
Anyway, I didn't feel like getting into the whole debate because it's just way too personal for me...considering the fact that I am Palestinian and I am an evil terrorist who is bent on destroying the world...er something like that. So yeah, I figured I'd let other INTELLIGENT people argue for me instead. And they seem to be doing a swell job. And if a post is moronic then I will state it as such...
For example saying the whole middle east shouldn't exist...without realizing WHY there is so much turmoil there...is indeed in my opinion moronic.
But as I've said, I should just stay out of this debate...hits a bit too close to home....
Didn't mean to offend, but the nature of this topic unfortunately leaves a lot of room for ill feelings toward other members' responses. And, I DO have an understanding about why there is so much unrest in the middle east, so my comment was not an ignorant statement, but my personal opinion based on the question. It may be "moronic" to you, but I call tell you I'm not the only one who thinks this way. So maybe it's a good idea for BOTH of us to stay out of this debate! 8)Quote:
Originally posted by Aquanina
Anyway, I didn't feel like getting into the whole debate because it's just way too personal for me...considering the fact that I am Palestinian and I am an evil terrorist who is bent on destroying the world...er something like that. So yeah, I figured I'd let other INTELLIGENT people argue for me instead. And they seem to be doing a swell job. And if a post is moronic then I will state it as such...
For example saying the whole middle east shouldn't exist...without realizing WHY there is so much turmoil there...is indeed in my opinion moronic.
But as I've said, I should just stay out of this debate...hits a bit too close to home....
Once again you are assuming I hate someone. I don't hate the Palestinians. I do believe I should stop talking now because Everything I say has hidden meaning to Leo.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Okay, so you have no problem with Jews. *Do you also have no problem with other thieves, intruders, invaders and marauders.
And then we need to ask you why you hate the Palestinians. *This is not just a question about letting Jews be the Chosen People. *It is about letting the Jews play out their Delusional Fantacy at the expense of the Palestinian People.
Your indulgence to the Jews plays out as hate and sensitivity for the Palestinians. *You are not allowed to be openhearted with the Jews without being reminded that you are participating in a Crimes against the Palestinian People. *
Again, I pray to God that you and your family might begin to feel some of the sufferings of the Palestinian People until you might begin to understand something about Moral Responsibility.
dude leo that was 6 posts in a row. do you know what the edit button is?
EDIT: oh and BTW, in answer to one of your posts (can't remember which one it was), the one about the poeple who voted yes: The people who voted yes probably didnt realize there was dispute about Isreal or it being a country and whatnot, so when they realized there were reasons enough to illigetimize its existance, they probably left, not wanting to look stupid.
Where'd all the metaphors go? :(
I think the real question is what is the cause of any problems that have developed and how would we solve them.
Nuking all of the middle east is not the answer obviously. I would place considerable blame on the world governments and particularly those involved in the scandels. People who have had a job to do that have not done it. Ignorance and greed has also played a part. And those turning a blind eye and letting things get so out of hand are just as responsible. Ultimately we are all responsible.
I'm not going to vote for a yes no question like that because Israel exists so we must deal with it. Just like all countries exist. You can call China, America, Europe. Any country. Call them Joe bob for all I care. The land and people are still present. The states and the divided names and borders are illusionary creations. Just as the states of America were united. So will hopefully the world become united in due time.
What wrong with nuking? Well I guess nerve gass would be more humane. :)
Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
And it is annoying that we must hear Politians talk endlessly about the 'cowardly' terrorists. *These are politicians who used family influence to hide from War when they were young enough to be expected to fight. *But they call people who brave certain death to be 'cowards'. *It simply is not right. *Such lies must certainly offend the ears of God whether God approves of the Struggle or not. * Even if they are wrong a thousand ways, they certainly are not cowards. *
Now, Americans and Israelis who send missiles down from a mile high in the sky, knowing full well that they will be killing innocents along with their questionably valuable targets. *Are these not the true terrorists and cowards.
The Americans and the Israelis hide behind Techno War like spoiled sissy boys behind a fat and stupid mother's skirts. *If it were a Man to Man fight, Palestine would have had their Nation back 43 years ago.
OK, certainly you are a good debater, and actually I agree with most of what you have said (even if you do seem to enjoy slagging off the USA, Israel and the UK), in fact you even changed my mind about a few things! But defending these people is just not on, politicians are fair game - I agree with you there.
When you take up arms against people who shoot back, thats fair enough, and I sortof have respect for that, but attacking defenceless people and places - even if it involves certain death, isn't brave. Now, fair enough they can't have a straight fight as Israeli troops are far more disciplined, trained, and better equipped (last two courtesy of the USA), so it might be considered fruitless, but if the end result is still the same i.e certain death, why not?
As for 'Techno War', that is simply how modern wars are fought, but granted, this isn't a modern war, and can't be treated as such. But yeah, I see what you're saying, and whilst I don't agree with some of it (and the attitude which comes through your posts, but that could just be the way I read them, so I'll leave that) most of it is spot on.
Well, whose best interest would it serve to Nuke whom?Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
What wrong with nuking? *Well I guess nerve gass would be more humane. :)
The Muslims have managed to stay put over the last few centuries, and have never had any Super Race pretentions to power. However, the Zionists are convinced that they are the Chosen People and that the rest of Humanity is on this planet simply to serve as their slaves.
Nuke the Zionists and all of our Geo-political problems with the Muslims go away. But if we Nuke the Muslims, then won't the Zionists rush into the vacuum and create a Greater Isreal -- fueling their desire for ever more territory until they remember that their Vision of a Messianic Israel called for World Conquest and Jewish Dominion over all people.
So, do we bomb the Muslims who have minded their own business since the 14th Century. Or do we bomb those who, after finally having attained Peace after the Cold War, have managed to destabilize the Globe, plunged us all into War, and have us talking again of Nuclear Holocaust.
Do we bomb the aggressors or the victims?
:hrm: Could you tell the difference? If we could would it be possible to segregate the two anyway?Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Do we bomb the aggressors or the victims?
What was the bomb that is or was in the making that left buildings in tact in order to facilitate taking over in a more readily fashion and not having to rebuild. In addition to little radiation.
Was it the neutron bomb? Hydrogen??? Anyone know that?
[quote]
What was the bomb that is or was in the making that left buildings in tact in order to facilitate taking over in a more readily fashion and not having to rebuild. In addition to little radiation.
Was it the neutron bomb? Hydrogen??? Anyone know that?
Free trade :lol:
Burns, i'm sorry but by your previous statements, you obviously have no idea what goes on down there, so stop pretending, if you want an apology just ask, don't drag the problem further.Quote:
Didn't mean to offend, but the nature of this topic unfortunately leaves a lot of room for ill feelings toward other members' responses. And, I DO have an understanding about why there is so much unrest in the middle east, so my comment was not an ignorant statement, but my personal opinion based on the question. It may be "moronic" to you, but I call tell you I'm not the only one who thinks this way. So maybe it's a good idea for BOTH of us to stay out of this debate!
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There is not much left to say, Leo has explained most at his posts. I have found it disapointing that lately there have been to many posts about ocupation, elimination, and those sorts of things, and that there is alot of ignorant agreement with this; I have found it useless replying to this kind of posts because most of its poster are unreasonable and ignorant on matters wich portray this kind of themes.
People, if you don't know what you are talking about, then better not talk with property, and if you do talk, then don't assume what you don't know.
[quote]
:hrm: Could you tell the difference? If we could would it be possible to segregate the two anyway?
What was the bomb that is or was in the making that left buildings in tact in order to facilitate taking over in a more readily fashion and not having to rebuild. In addition to little radiation.
Was it the neutron bomb? Hydrogen??? Anyone know that?
The Bomb that would flash out a short intense lethal dose of radiation that would soon dissipate so that the region could be occuppied and then resettled, that was the Neutron Bomb. At the time everyone agreed to say that it was taken out of development. But with National Security the way it is, nobody would know whether or not it was really taken out of development or not. You see, all the whistle blower protections and all the rights to freedom of speech end where the National Security Regulations begin. Indeed, sometimes the abuses of national security can be extreme. For instance, I heard that the workers of the Stealth Bomber were all getting sick, but they were not allowed to seek medical treatment because whatever was making them sick was Top Secret. And there is really no end to what they can make Secret. If it is politically inconvenient, they just stamp it Secret and suddenly it is entirely off limits. The Freedom of Information Act is a big joke, since all they have to do is wack something with a big old Secret Stamp and it is arbitrarily placed outside the Pall.
Someone really should review all of that. Afterall, what are we keeping secret and from whom. The enemies of the United States are now a bunch of 3rd World Insurgents. There is absolutely nothing that they could find out that could be used in any way. So that would mean that all of the Secrets are either Political Secrets, or Secrets being kept from Friends, Allies and Treaty Partners.
The UN and even the United States complain endlessly of other Nations having "secret weapons programs". but just look at the United States itself. their military forces, factories, civilian workers are chock full of people with Security Clearances. What this means is that they are sworn to keep their Jobs Secret.
I honestly don't know why the rest of the World lets the United States get away with it. No Country has more Nuclear Bombs or Weapons of Mass Destruction, or Secret Programs for whatever those Secrets are. And yet the whole World bends over backwards when the United States starts complaining about other people's weapons and other people's secrets, and other people's aggressions and invasions. Until the United States decides to play by the same rules it insists upon others, then maybe the UN should consider sanctions against the United States. Lets see how they would like it if THEY are the ones asked to renounce violence.
I thought it was the neutron bomb.
I am sure if they feel at some point they may need the neutron bomb, while they may not be producing new quintities, they are at least maintaining the stockpile that exist.
Their are five countries in the united peace treaty that have the largest stockpile of weapons. Seems a bit contradictory
I can't believe this topic wasn't locked yet..... somebody posted a topic saying he's a racist and got almost imediatly locked.... being a nazi and being anti-jews is just as bad...
It doesn't say anything anti-semitic at all in the title or in the overall content of this thread. It is a debate on the existence of the of Israel which is a valid topic. Obviously, you don't see this topic as valid so would you care to post why? Perhaps, it will be a nice read ;)
That is the problem with the mania toward shutting down Free Speech in the name of a extremely sensitive and positively protective AntiSemitism. If Hitler had had the same Free Pass in regards to Teutonic Supremacy as the Jews now have for Zionism, that is Jewish Racial Supremacy, he would have conquerred the World and we would now all be thanking him for the privelege.Quote:
Originally posted by SeptCore
I can't believe this topic wasn't locked yet..... somebody posted a topic saying he's a racist and got almost imediatly locked.... being a nazi and being anti-jews is just as bad...
So thankyou, Ms Weinberg, for your opinion.
Way to sound smart. Oh wait...nevermind.. what I meant was like an ass.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
So thankyou, Ms Weinberg, for your opinion.
There is a forum for naughty christ loving boys like you >: (Quote:
Originally posted by bochen4
mongreloctopus,
You actions are not delightful in the eyes of God.
Anyhow, on the topic of jews: I find it ironic that often we are all bitching about anti-racism, but alot of the people we racist, black people and middle-easter people, are anti-semetic.
At least middle eastern people are.
The only solution is killing Eighter all the white people, or the black people, or the jews. Oh, or we should try to get middle eastern countries to be more racist.
This topic could work out fabulous in conjunction to the Forum Topic, (What is the dumbest thing you have ever said)
Many of you can simply copy & paste. :)
personally I think the creation of the jewish state after the war was a decison that was always gonna have heavy repercussion it was typical of the kinds of decisons made by the winners of wars.
There is a creoocuring problem that arises when governements (particularly those propped up by military force) rule over geographical areas on behalf of certail racial social or national gropus to the detriment of the minority sometimes these governements rule to the detrimment of the majoirty
are people ever goona learn to respect their fellow man even those that with different colour skin religion language culture etc
not very soon i think seeing all the comments about nuking people written in this thread
and a bit of empathy for those who are economicaly and political oppressed might not go amis sure i would defend my self if physically attacked i might even join the resistance if i felt my country was illegally occupied that why its better if goverments don't put its people in those extreme situations
something like this for me.Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
Perhaps. But they totally fucked it up. So I voted no.
but I also think that if both israel and palestinians had better governments with less economic interests on oil most problems would simply disappear.
and no, i don't think bombing anyone can help. you can't fix things by breaking them worse.
Well, I voted "yes", but more because they WILL exist, whether or not they should. I guess that goes a bit against the poll's question, but whatever.
Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place, because it isn't right to force people out because it was yours hundreds of years ago.
Now that Israel does exist, it should continue to exist for the same reason: It isn't right to force people out because the land was yours a few generations ago.
So, should Israel have ever existed? No.
Should it continue to exist? Yes/No. No, I don't think it should. But it will.
No matter what force is enacted on the Israelis, they won't surrender their land. EVER. They'd fight to the death first. They have in the past. Further, they're one of the most powerful military forces in the world, despite their small size. Israeli tanks are better than US tanks. We gave them some Abrams, and they modified them. Then they made the Merkavas, which are on par or better than most any other tank out there. Their tank crews are arguably superior. Their ground forces are extremely well-trained. Better by far than any other Middle Eastern nation. And they're a nuclear power (Thanks, no doubt, to additional and unfortunate meddling by the US). Combined, they're quite immune to all but the most dedicated of attackers.
Then we should also give back the Americas the The Natives that were here before our Euro-ancestors.Quote:
Originally posted by Dangeruss
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Of course they deserve a nation of their own. Yet, you can't justify taking away someone else's land simply because someone else wants it and they've got the big guns behind them.
Have you packed your bags today? :shock:
No.Quote:
Originally posted by The original question
do you think israel should exist?
Israel shuld never have existed in the first place, it should not continue to exist, and it is better for the world if Israel did not exist.
Totally APART from whether Israel should ever have existed in the first place, and APART from whether they should continue to exist... peace negotiations and truces only go so far. There will never be peace in the middle east as long as Israel continues to exist. IF you want stability and peace in the middle east, Israel has to go.
It would be better if it it can be dismantled quietly and peaceably, with its citizens not suffering. But, if Israel has to be wiped of the face of the earth, so be it. The long-term strife and suffering resulting frok Israel's continued existance may very well outweigh that which would be caused by wiping israel out in one fell swoop.
I'm not an anti-semitist, if that's what you are thinking. I just take a very hard-line approach to Israel. If you want peace, Israel has gotta go.
Israel SHOULD exist!!! I think the problem isn't Israel. I think it is the Islamic countries around it. If you look at Israel, and compare it to the Islamic countries it wins on all counts. Take civil rights. Israel is a democratic state, and while the non-Jews aren't totally equal, they still have opportunities. I have been there many times as I am Israeli born, and can attest to the fact. This isn't true about any of the surrounding Arab countries, and I'd love to see an openly-jewish person try to survive in Iran or some other extremist country. The reason people don't like Israel in my opinion is the ultra-orthodox settlers in the west bank and gaza who ARE stealing land from Palestinians, and the fact that the Palestinians make themselves all miserable and in bad condition, when the only reason they don't get more land and peace from Israel is that their leaders do nothing to stop, and even encourage terrorist attacks on innocent Israeli citizens. I do not hate muslems or islam, but I do hate the fundamentalist values that inspire terrorism and make them feel like they have the right to kill in the name of Allah. Those people are the real criminals, not Israel. People just hate jews and always have for some reason I will never understand. The idea that Israelis are doing something wrong by simply existing is fucking bullshit, and while I can't way I hate all that believe in this, as too many people believe this, it pisses me off.
Don't pull the race card. It doesn't do your argument ANY good.Quote:
Originally posted by PenguinLord13
People just hate jews and always have for some reason I will never understand. The idea that Israelis are doing something wrong by simply existing is fucking bullshit, and while I can't way I hate all that believe in this, as too many people believe this, it pisses me off.
And in any case, even discussions fo right and wrong aside, there remains the mater of practicality:
The middle east will NEVER be free from war, conflict, civil and political strife, as long as Israel exists. Regardless of whether or not it SHOULD exist, as long as it does, things are not going to change.
It may not, but not trying to sound miserable, as I believe what counts is the now, not the past, if you look back into the Jewish history, discrediting bible accounts and using real historically proven events you see a lot of inhumane acts of torture and death against the jewish people, most lately the holocaust. This being discounted, I still don't think that Israel is the one without right to exist when to my knowledge the only times it has taken actions of war against other countries is in responsee to assaults against them either in the form of an organized assault or terrorism against innocent citizens. Isn't there something wrong with saying a country shouldn't exist when the people commiting most (not all, Israel is anything but perfect, but most) of the crimes are the surrounding nations.Quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Meanie
Don't pull the race card. *It doesn't do your argument ANY good.
We're not saying who's committing the crimes--we're saying that Israel's existence STARTED those crimes. The Jewish people DID need a homeland, but it was wrong to steal land in the Middle East and give it to them. The land was still stolen, even if it had once upon a time been controlled by the Jews.
The holocaust had NOTHING to do with Israel. Israel did not EXIST at the time of the holocaust. The holocaust, while horrific, has NOTHING to do with the present debate.Quote:
Originally posted by PenguinLord13
It may not, but not trying to sound miserable, as I believe what counts is the now, not the past, *if you look back into the Jewish history, discrediting bible accounts and using real historically proven events you see a lot of inhumane acts of torture and death against the jewish people, most lately the holocaust.
"Jews" is NOT the same as "Israel".
And, for what it's worth, if you look back in the bible, you'll ALSO see accounts and justifications for acts of violaence and savagery BY the jewish people.
Bullshit.Quote:
Originally posted by PenguinLord13
This being discounted, I still don't think that Israel is the one without right to exist when to my knowledge the only times it has taken actions of war against other countries is in responsee to assaults against them either in the form of an organized assault or terrorism against innocent citizens. Isn't there something wrong with saying a country shouldn't exist when the people commiting most (not all, Israel is anything but perfect, but most) of the crimes are the surrounding nations.
Israel is, most definitely, the target of terrorist attacks. The terorists most definitely come from surrounding countries. It is NOT at ALL certain how much backing, if any, those terrorists have from the governments of their own countries. I, for one, believe they have little to no backing. For a START: what backing do suicide bombers NEED? They go in, blow themselves up. It's not a high-resource operation. At the very MOST, police and border guards from those nations turn a blind eye. At the MOST.
To blame those countries for the acts of a select bunch of religious nutters is totally wrong. It would be as stupid as blaming "Iraq" for the actions of a dozen or so zealot nutter terrorists with no connection whatsover to the iraqi government, or backing from them. Oh wait! THATS ALREADY BEEN DONE!!!
Israel, on the other hand? Any country which bulldozes innocent, legitimate citizens off their land, and destroys their houses and homes, in order to make way for its own settlers, is TOTALLY FUCKING WRONG. Same goes with any country whose army willfully murders those innocent palestinian citizens. Defenceless, by the way.
You want to bring up the holocaust, hitler, the nazis? Fine. Two can play at that game.
You condemn the nazis, and hitler, and RIGHTFULLY SO, for their actions against the jewish people.
Well, guess what?
With respect to their treatment of palestinians, Israel has BECOME what nazi germany was.
Israel is big trouble makers in the area. They are far worse than any of the other countries around it. They have way more human rights violations than any of the other countries. Which is a big reason why Israel has so many UN sanctions against them condemning their actions.
By the way, we are all mad at Iran for trying to get nuclear weapons and israel never even signed the nonproliferation treaty. There was like 150 countries who signed it, including nearly all the Islamic countries. Every modern country in the world pretty much signed it except for israel, india and pakistan.
Ok, you win. Thinking logically and practically if you want an easier route to peace in the area, then Israel shouldn't exist, as considering all the surrounding countries hate Israel's guts, peace is nearly impossible. The problem is there are six million people in there, and if you get rid of Israel as a country, and just leave them to rot, every single jew remaining WILL be killed. This isn't a piece of land the size of massachusetts, these are real, living people, most of which are no better or worse than anyone else. I understand that many people disagree with my views, and I respect that. I am not going to argue about this anymore because I know that I am arguing with perfectly normal, nice people, and I am not going to start making enemies because I disagree with someone's views, even on something so important to me, just like I am not going to make enemies with republicans because I'm democrat. It's a waste of time.
Well thats the problem. Even if their all evil you cant just tell them all to move away and go some where else. So everyone in that area will just keep on fighting them untill one day israel is defeated and launches nuclear weapons in a revenege move and the entire continent turns into a smoking crator.
You're right: Six million people shouldn't be forced out of their homes. But that's exactly what happened when Israel was put into existence: They forced out all the middle easterners to make room for the new Israelis.
Yeah. Amen. I totally agree with this. IF you decide that Israel has got to go, you've still got the problem of how to do it. If you wanted to take the same approach that Israel took to Palestinians, we could always just bulldoze all the Israelis of their land, knocking down there homes and killing the ones who resist.Quote:
Originally posted by PenguinLord13+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PenguinLord13)</div>Because you're arguing with normal, nice people, is a good reason to KEEP arguing. I, for one, aren't going to get angry at somebody for their views, or hold it against them. I'm angry at the ideas, not the person who holds them.Quote:
I understand that many people disagree with my views, and I respect that. I am not going to argue about this anymore because I know *that I am arguing with perfectly normal, nice people, and I am not going to start making enemies because I disagree with someone's views, even on something so important to me, just like I am not going to make enemies with republicans because I'm democrat. It's a waste of time.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-PenguinLord13
Ok, you win. Thinking logically and practically if you want an easier route to peace in the area, then Israel shouldn't exist, as considering all the surrounding countries hate Israel's guts, peace is nearly impossible. The problem is there are six million people in there, and if you get rid of Israel as a country, and just leave them to rot, every single jew remaining WILL be killed. This isn't a piece of land the size of massachusetts, these are real, living people, most of which are no better or worse than anyone else.
But that would be totally inhumane. So, what then is the solution, IF you decide that Israel has gotta go? I'm not sure, to be totally honest. Erasing a country from the map isn't an easy task. Especially when you try to do it without causing the people any harm or suffering.
I say yes, Israel should exist. At the time, the Jewish needed a home. However I do not agree that Israel should have been built off of someone elses land. But it wasnt Israel who stoled the land was it???
I dont think it will do any good if Israel just suddenly stopped existing. But I also think, it wont do any good so long as America stays involved in the middle east...
No. I say pull out of the middle east and let nature take its course.
I arbitrarily said no, although I honestly have 0 idea about anything going on in that crazy hotbed - I don't know the details of how it was formed, how it really operates, who they hate, who hates them, etc etc etc. I hear the name all the time on the news which technically should educate me as to what's going on, but no, it does quite the opposite. Whenever I hear the name being spoken, there are usually a few other country names tossed in with it along with the words "suicide," "bomber," "explosion," "casualties," and "terror." I've just tuned it out because everything is this zero-sum attritional temper tantrum game where everybody in that region just jumps back and forth blowing people up and forming coalitions and being overthrown and blowing more people up and making vague threats all the time.
So I say no primarily because I despise nationalism and the easiest way to decrease nationalism is to dissolve nations. It doesn't matter if you're fighting for a religion, a ruler, a piece of land, or (in this case) a country - over and over again, you're just being manipulated by an idea, being controlled to do inhuman things in the name of an intangible abstraction. Nations only create divisions, and divisions only create conflict, and conflict only creates suffering (well, conflict does a lot of other things too, but that foremost among them).
Sorry, for once I just couldn't stomache reading 5 massive pages of heated debate, so I'm just dumping this here. Apologies if it's already been articulated by someone else.
Wow. Okay, Russ, I completely agree.Quote:
Originally posted by Dangeruss
No. I say pull out of the middle east and let nature take its course.
The Zionist movement started harmlessly enough as Jews began to move to Palestine during the 19th Century. They bought property. They lived as members of the Ottoman Empire just like everybody else. But it was England's Ambition to Conquer the World that landed us all into trouble. Over several million dead bodies England forceably stole the Empire from the Ottomans, and then did not know how to administer it. So we had the Instability that allowed for the criminal motives of the Radical Zionists. They decided they would betray their Palestinian Neighbors and declare their own Nation and conduct a massive confiscation of Palestinian properties and forceably eject the Palestinians out of what had been their Land, which had been respected by the Ottoman Rulers, being more Civilized then the English. Of course, no Civilized person can condone such behavior.
George Bush would call it respecting the "Realities on the Ground"... that Israel had stolen it five minutes ago and now it is as good as theirs. Somebody needs to steal something from George Bush and see if he respects his own doctrine, that once stolen, it no longer belongs to him.
It would be fine if the Palestinians had ever surrendered in War, but that is just the point. They have never surrendered.
In real estate law we have a notion called Hostile Defense. In the American West if somebody encroaches upon some land and puts it to productive use for 20 years without the Deeded Owner putting up a "Hostile Defense", which means nothing more than once putting a phone call through to the Sherif in order to complain, the the Usurper can claim for a Title Transfer... I was using it, he was not, and he never complained.
But from the very first minute, until now, for how many years you wish to count, Palestine has Hostily Defended its right to their stolen properties, to their stolen Nation.
Since America and Britain are the only Nations on earth that support this Thievery, well, they should make it right. Either move Israel to Scotland or California -- let them see how it feels to be forced from their homes. Or move Palestine to Scotland or California, giving them enough compensation whereby they are willing to make the deal. But of course without any of the present duress and violence.
Dropping bombs on ones victims and assassinating their every spokesmen in order to establish an absolute intimidation, is not really a way to assure a lasting Peace. If too much Duress is involved in a Peace Treaty, well in every legal sense, it invalidates the contract. Any valid Contract must involve a real interest accruing to each party, and not just "We will stop murdering your babies if you agree to our crimes". Suspension of Duress and Violence does not count as any Legally recognized accrual of interest.
But George Bush never studied law... nor anybody who voted for him.
I voted Yes , probably one of the few who did.
But to me the Question ''Should Israël exist?'' comes down to ''Should my jewish Family in Israël be saved from exile from their homecountry?''
Well my YES is a firm YES because we have all seen what happened to the Jews in WW2. And I also took note that the racist Anti-semite have never disappeared and is back now more than ever, mainly due to false one sided media coverage . My family in Northern Israël had to leave their hometown Qiryat Shimona because it was just raining missiles.The whole town is burning and still under missile and katchusha fire. However you hear surprisingly little about THIS side of the conflict. The media creates a false pre-fixed image of a conflict while there's so much more to it.
Hezbollah , just like Hamas, Fatah, Al Aqsa and other Militant Brigades fighting for ''the bloody murderous Palestinian cause'' claim to be very integre and rightious....However they do NOT fight for peace for the lebanese, or the Palestinians...They fight to destroy Israël to the last inch. How can I be so certain?:
Years ago at times of cease fire agreements with Hezbollah, Hezbollah would simply continue firing katchusha mortars on Northern Israëli Villages and cities to cause Massive Israëli Civilian Death. Hezbollah is not on speaking terms and thus Israël's only option to save it's people from murderous terror is to push Hezbollah back into northern Libanon.....and that is only possible by war since the Lebanese Government doesn't do anything about the Hezbollah ( They wouldn't dare Disarming Hezbollah since Hezbollah is Iran's Long arm ) My family shall not lie when they phone us that they are in a bombshelter because they're under fire.
And if Israël should be dismantled, where should the Jewish people go? it seems no other place Really wants us...and certainly not now that anti-jewish sentiment and violence is now stronger than ever.
You know, even though not everyone is a racist...too many people are. Basically the world hates us Jews. Never been any different. So it is no wonder Jewish folks from Europe after WW2 thought: let's get the fuck out of here before it happens again. Let's return to our homeland of old so we can defend ourselves with borders. As a, nonrelugious, but involved jewish person with a jewish background I know how deep the hatred for the Jews runs. And that it is only a matter of Time before it peaks and gets out of hand again. Before that Time, I think I'll move to Israël myself too.
Just Imagine being Jewish: Half the world hates you. Kinda sucky..but FUCK the world.
And WHO the hell do Europe think they are to be in ANY position to critisize The Jewish state of Israël: it is Europe's more than 1000 years old disgustingly racistic sentiment that made the Jewish people flee to Israël. And now they're telling us to stop defending ourselves,die and let Hezbollah Bomb our people and Hostage our soldiers(In this action also 8 other Israëli soldiers were killed: the Media ''failed'' to mention that as distinctly as the people of lebanon and palestine ( who are sufferig too: and yeah I am a human being with feelings. It's really sucky for them and they don't deserve to be in between all of this violence...but alas. But my family that left everything behind in their Northern Israëli hometown and had to flee the missiles and move to their daughter's house in Tel Aviv, more down South, is Just as sad.
Well if only the Brittish would have told the Jews: ''Well WW2 proved that this world is one dangerious bitch for you guys so Welcome back into your own country'' that'd been just great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo
Too bad the Brittish only saw Israël as Their Colonial Pride (yeah Israël was a Brittish mandate) and since they didn't want to loose it they sent the newly arrived jews back in a boat to Prisons in Cyprus from which they'd have to return to ''not so friendly'' Europe. Jews kept comming back, and no wonder, and Eventually after the UN forced the UK to give the Jewish people their well-deserved state, The Brittish gave it up and the Stae of Israël was born in 1948. But before that happened, The Brittish did EVERYTHING within their power to keep the Jews away from Israël: They even set up an anti-jewish Sentiment amongst the Local Arabs there and Founded Arab Brigades and supplied them with weapons to fight the Jews...Which are the same people with the same sentiment fighting Israël now, today.
The UK Started and Fueled this Conflict .
The Palestinian Authorities (READ: Religiously Insane Militant Movements) and vast Majority of the Palestinian people never embraced the Jewish people with open arms at all: They have always been Intolerant . Their Overly fanatic Religious and racist views have been the reason for this Violent Intolerance: The Jewish people would have had no problem living in an Israël where Palestinians and Israëlis coexisted as neighbors.I mean FUCK do you really think that people who have just escaped Violent Mega-Doom are in any mood to start another, senseless war? It is what you hear from Hezbollah, Hamas and Al Aqsa Spokesmen.( people the UN, for some stupid reason, think you can trust...UN needs new glasses, away with their pink colored irrational hippy glasses, they should see the world and it's people sharp and for what it is.
Really too bad that, at first, the Brittish, and later, the local Arab population did not see it this way too.
That's why Israël has always been a beseiged country. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa, Al Fatah, Al Quds, PLO are organisations bent on Israël's Destruction: With the same sentiment from the Brittish Colonial period after WW2. They teach their Children at young age in Hezbollah SCHOOLS to hate the jews , not to trust them and that they are treaturious and arrogant. And that they are descendants of pigs and monkeys: If that's where this Religious racist berzerk Hatred and Violence already STARTS at the age of 5 I don't see how the Hezbollah and friends, claiming to be so Integre and Rightious, Contribute to a peacefull middle east.
All they do is continue killing more and more Civilians, and causing more and more friction between Middle Eastern nations. It was THEM that brought this war into Lebanon, by Using Lebanon as a Artillery base to cause death and terror amongst Israëli civillians. There is no negociating with an organisation who's demand is to destroy all of Israël and kill all of it's people. These are no terms to be taken serious. They are large scale death threats by hatefull people that should be answered and erradicated.
They should be eliminated to the point where they are just to weakened and fragmented to lead organised Artillery attacks on Israëli Civilians.
That's my View on this. pretty firm
But people: DON'T TRUST THE MEDIA : there are so many sides, historical events and other background information that will never be shown by the media. Did you know that during the Syrian/Egyptian invasion of the land Israël alot of Arab and northAfrican bedouins Fought WITH Israël against the Egyptians to push them back out of Israël? Bedouins are a friendly, neutral people who have always lived like kings in Israël...of course they wanted to fight on Israël's side. There are so many things, Crucial when forming an opinion about this conflict, that most if not all of you don't know. You only see what They(media) want you to see.
Because I noticed how false and subjective The media was covering this and how far it was from reailty ( which I have seen many times with my own eyes) I learned not to trust the media . So even if there's news about War in Sudan....I don't take it as seriously either.
I voted no..
And I like the metaphors better.
It's like being lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Sooo....you mean to say? Why should my Family not have the Right to exist in a Jewish state?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne
It's funny how often you hear people say about foreigners ''Go back to your own country!'' and how the Jews, who have fled back to their ancient homeland are told to MOVE OUT OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY..
I don't get it. Is there so little understanding for the desire of the jewish people to safely live in the land of Israël?
Media has really messed up your mind. and alot of minds.
BTW what argument is that anyway? a Lame duck? Lame joke about a serious conflict.
Why shouldn't Israël have the right to exist according to you then?
People don't understand they don't get to see the truth: just the parts Media WANTS you to see. It is how western nations form public opinions amongst their own people: People are so easily influenceable.
Example: Say if you watched a Friend of yours touch another guy's girlfriend's Butt and the guy Punched your friend dwon. You'd pronanly think '' Well he had it comming, his own fault''
Now if THE SAME thing would be happening, but then this time you were looking at a very attractive person while your friend touches this girls butt and you look around and see you friend get hit.... You'll be like: ''Hey leave my freidn alone you asshole!''
See how Easily our Opinions are falsely formed when we don't get to see ALL of the truth. It's pure Indoctrination of which most are unaware, but their opinionms are usually hard and almost ''programmed'' in mind Thinking the Truth is the ''Israëli/Palestinian David and Goliath story'' they get presented by the Media, because it's all they get to see.
Don't think you are shown the full conflict in all it's sides. And untill you've seen the Complete Truth your Idea of this conflict is seriously messed up.
Wide Scale media Mindfucking people. And they all buy it. except for a few who have ears eyes and hearts of their own. If you think a Hizbollah Rocket attack in Northern Israëli Civilians you are Either a Terrorist yourself or a terrorism Sympathiser. The main issue in the latest Israël/Lebanon conflict is: HIZBOLLAH SHOUDL STOP LAUNCHING GODDAMN MISSILES AND BOMBS ON OUR PEOPLE. If they would stop, which isn't gunna happen, we would have no reason at all fighting them. You think Israël just felt like a Militairy game or somethinmg? In what kind of world do you live?
A media-created lie...and trust me you're not the only one. all the masses go with the obvious. While people with ears eyes and a heart of their own will recognise the Truth that they WONT show and tell you.
Dear SKA
My. I wonder how you can entertain such tone that assumes some entitlement for the Jews to just walk in and take over other people's homes, or how you can assume that the British had every right to dictate massive confiscations within an occupied Territory -- they had acquired the Ottoman Empire only by conquest but by International Law did not have any right to confiscate Private Properties. Pillaging an entire People's Nation should not be condoned by any moral person... but you condone it just fine.
Everything you say indicts the Arabs for hating the Jews. Well, duh. Did not the Jews hate the Nazis? Do the Blacks not hate the KKK? Do women not hate their rapers? Don't you hate it when somebody would steal you car?
Your point seems to be that the Jews can do anything they want... violate any moral restriction... rules that everybody else is expected to obey... but for which the Jews... and the British by extension, or exempted from.
Yes, yes, yes... the Bible calls the jews the Chosen People of God. Well, that would mean something if the Book was not entirely produced by Jewish Writers. What is this Bible but the jewish "Mein Kempf".
But then, what about other Tribal Religions. Is every People who claim Racial Superiority as a Religious Right supposed to be indulged in their thrusts of conquest and genocide. Was Hitlers mistake not to make himself an Official Prophet for a German Religion just as valid as any Jewish Religion would be? And then there is Japanese Shintoism.. which is nothing more than Japanese Nationalism that requires bowing and the lighting of candles. So it is that Japan has its natural and unselfconscious arrogance, and their dismissive attitude for any other Asian People or Power. But does Religion make this institutionalized Hatred morally correct or Internationally Acceptable.
No.
When any people, even if they are Jews, set up a policy of Racial or Ethnic Supremacy, and go about implementing policies to victimize the rest of the World... to subjugate other People's, then they deserve the Hatred they have provoked through their own actions, behaviors and policies.
If it is wrong to be a Nazi. If it is wrong to be a KKK. Then it is wrong to be a Zionist.
Honestly, why couldn't Jersusalem have been in Antarctica or something. Nothing down there but penguins. :)
no, because war is evil and any country which continues it and does not try to end it, has evil within it...and thats just plain wrong, and people use religion to justify war, that discusts me, the word religion means to bring together, and that is what it should be doing, bringing all kinds of people togetherfor the good of humanity, not to tear it apart...
Sure I would have to Agree. I would love to see people realise that their not arabs, or jews, muslims or Christians...But people, all people. Religion has driven us so far appart and so out of touch with eachother. It has put us into devided camps. It is why I am certainly NOT a supporter of Religion. Religion is where Innocent, Harmless FAITH gets Corrupted, Organised and used to indoctrinate and dictate society ...and with sucess:Quote:
Originally Posted by the
Look at what Religiously Motivated Extremist Organisations such as Hamas, PLO, Al Aqsa, Qasam Brigades, Al Fatah and Hizbollah do.
Look at what Hizbollah did: They nest themselves deep into the social Structure of Lebanon. They ''Hijack'' the social life there: That's why in South Lebanon there's only Hizbollah Schools, Hizbollah Hospitals, Hizbollah Neighberhood watch, Hizbollah EVERYTHING...They control Society .
And they don't use it to do any good: In their school Children's first song they sing is a song that goes: ''Arabs are beloved, Jews are Dogs'' A Lebanese Child will endure a childhood, and probably lifetime, of Hizbollah Dictated Hate Indoctrine against Israël and the Jewish Presence in the Middle East. I heard a radio interview with a former Palestinian Terrorist who had come to realise how insane the hatred Indoctrine against the Jews was. I'll post the Link if my mom is back home: She has it. This interview will give you alot of insight on the extreme hate Ideology and Motives of So called Sovereign Organisations such as Hizbollah and Hamas.
Hizbollah ; the organisation said to be so sovereign, has to my undenieable knowledge never stopped Bombing Northern Israëli Towns and Cities. Even after the Cease Fire Agreement and Withdrawal from the Israëli army ot of Southern Lebanon in 2000 the Bombing of Civilians never stopped: I saw a big crater of where a katchusha had hit near the Gymnhall that was part of my Cousin's Public SwimmingPool. It was a large impact hole and the pressure of the explosion had bursted all windows of the Gymn hall.
What has my Cousin, Running a Public Swimming pool in a Town near the foot of the mountain, Ever done Wrong to Hizbollah or Lebanon?
Nothing.
My other family In Northern Israël ( My Aunt, Another Aunt and My Uncle, My 3cousins and my grandmother before she died, have called us many many times to say that they were in Bombshelters because Hizbollah was Attacking them with Mortars and that they were okay.
Hizbollah are murderers that fire mortars and missiles at civilians non-stop, no matter what cease fire agreements you make with them: They won't negociate: They speak with mortars.
That leaves the Israëli government no choice but to speak back in this language. It's appearantly the only way Hizbollah is EVER going to stop Bombing Israëli Civilians.
I'm not going to say much because I don't really have a whole lot to say.
However, I'm upset at how the international community feels that it MUST intervene between these two waring nations. I'm as appalled as the next person at the cruelties of war, but this is between Israel and Hesbolla (sp?) and who are we to intervene? Lebanon made it perfectly clear that they don't want us (the US) to intervene and I'm sure that while Israel appreciates our support, they make their own decisions regardless our opinions on the war.
It's like two kids who have grown up fighting. Now, an adult can come in and break it up, and should, but if the kids can't reconcile their differences together, they will grow up enemies. Sure an adult can try to explain why they should get along, but the adult doesn't know the whole story (though they may know a lot) and they can't make up the children's' minds for them.
My thoughts are kind of scattered, but they usually are when it comes to Extended Discussion and the like. All in all, I don't think that the international community should try sending in troops to try and stop this (which probably wouldn't work), or come up with a "plan of action" that both groups must agree to... or else... or else what?
The problem with just leaving them be is that the US government funds almost the entire military budget for israel.
And it's a good thing they Do, Because that budget will go into Militairy equipment and troops,defending the lives of my Israëli family and 1000nds of other Harmless Israëli civilians who are constant victims of Katchusha bombardments of Hizbollah. They ned to be kept away from our Northern Border so they cannot Fire Bombs on our Civillians. How obvious is that? You can't let some terrorist organisation, that won't recognise the State Israël and wants to destroy it, have their way with your Civilians.Bombing them constantly from the Golan mountains: I have been there, in Those Mountains, Seen a Mortar-Crater near my Cousin's Public Pool, heard stories of bombardments from my Family, been in an Israëli armycamp at the Border with Lebanon, watched over parts of South-Lebanon. This is the side of the Truth that the Media DOESN'T show the Public. The Media's head is so far up The Arab Oil Sheikh's Arse, I can't tell where the media ends and the Oil Sheikh begins. You see that is why the Media is so Subjective: it's pure, mainly saudi & Iranian, oil business-power that they use as a Political Tool to influence Western Media. People do everything for money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Everyone needs to read Exodus by Leon Uris before throwing their opinion out there. If you dont know its a novel about the birth of Isreal.
I don't know this book, what's it about? In a Nutshell...Quote:
Originally Posted by MCM1013
If it's about the Exodus and Jewish History and the Kingdom of Israël, yeah that may be some meaningfull information to read. People should first realise what the Jews are doing in Israël and why it is Ignorant and easy to just say ''they stole that land from those poor people, bastards''.
People need to know the background stories and histories behind all parties in this conflic before forming an oppinion against any of the parties: You cannot Oppose that which you do not fully know and understand what it is. In this Case it's Zionism, and Why the Jews had to move back to Israël?
If people would spend some time Reading about the History of this Land, and the many Different Cultural populations that all have their own Historical roots lying in this Land, perhaps they would understand the motivatiosn and sentiments better and form a more solid and Credible Opinion based on KNOWLEDGE. Not letting emotion take the Mind of you after having seen Lebanese casualties of an Israëli bombardment and just deciding that ''The Zionists are Beasts!''. I know plenty of people who reason their anti-Israël Sentiment like that. Pathetic.
KNOWLEDGE. Think with your Mind. Not with your Heart. It will show you the Truth
I voted 'no', and Leo stated his opinion most eloquently.
Can you show us where you found this information? Or is it the fact that the media focuses in so hard on the middle-east that gets you to believe that most terrorist are soully middle-eastern? And "there will never be peace there" is a very negetive comment, one I wouldn't have expected from a forum mod :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns
Well said!! :thanks:Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns
Well Said Bullshit indeed., Because that is nopt the way the Jewish People migrated back to Israël. There's too many here who know little to basically nothing about this conflict and just Jump on the Bandwagon against Zionism. Any one with a little insight into the suffering of others would Feel Sympathy for the Suffering Palestinian and Lebanese Population. BUT ALSO you would understand and feel the Suffering of the Jewish People and have at least SOME understanding for their desires, motives and RIGHT to live in Israël: Unwanted and hated in most parts of the World due to WideSpread Xenophelia based Racist beliefs that Prophecise that the Jews are forging a World Domination Conspiracy. Listen, I'm, Jewish, a real Kike, feel Comitted through a Cultural way: I haven't been Planning any World Dominations Lately. I've got better occupations to spend my days with. I'm only Smoking joints, Playing guitar and enjoying life as much as Fate allows me. So I hope you people here understand why these BullShit Racial Stories and paranoid Conspiracy theories around ''The Jews'' are so rediculously full of Ignorant Prejudice.Quote:
Originally Posted by invader_tech
I'm so sick of those Ideaologies and the masses of people who just find it ''amusing'' and Rebelious fun to jump on the Anti-Israël band wagon.
Extreme Religious and/or Racist beliefs have always blown my Mind as I Observed their Violent Manifestations on the news and with my Own ears and Eyes in this Crazy World we live in: How we, as Human Beings, allow our selves to be devided and put into camps and team up against eachother so easily:
I see Arabs, Negros, Asians, Jews, Northern Europeans, Slavonic peoples...as PEOPLE, Different people, with Different Racial physical appearances, Different Cultural and Thocratic background..... But they are PEOPLE.
I bet that I could have a real good time and understanding with even Eskimos ( people with lifestyles so alien to me), because I can see it in peoples eyes. They are the same as me, Flesh Blood and a Soul.
In don't understand how people allow hatred indoctrine and Religious Devision to kill their individualism and common ''Fellow-Human'' understanding. This Sub-human Racist Hate Indoctrine is the HEART of the Problem with Hizbollah on the Northern Borded.
You'll be scared senseless when you read their internet sites full of racist-religious Propaganda. The hatred is Bizarre. And Hizbollah feeds this hatred to Lebanese Children at the age of 5 in a Hizbollah school in HIZBOLLAH OWNED SOCIETY : That promises plenty of terrorists and hizbollah supporters to come for the future generations: Is THAT contributing to peace in the Region?
No.
And neither is firing Katchusha Mortars and Rockets with EXTRA Shrapnell at Harmless, Innocent Northern Israëli Civilians in towns and cities non-stop.
The street where my Grandmother lived, and my Aunt+Uncle+3Cousins still live is now very likely to be a bombarded rubble. What have these people ever done wrong against Hizbollah or the Lebanese?
Nothing. They just live there. It's because of Hizbollah Insane Hate-Ideaology that teaches ''those jews'' don't deserve to live there. They think it is a Rightious, devine act of Jihad to Bomb and Kill as many Israëli people they possibly can. This is not a Reasonable Organisation to sit around the Table with for peace talks.
Now ONLY when Hizbollah Stops carying out these Attacks from Southern Lebanon, killing our people randomly, THEN Israël would have a Credible and Trustworthy peace partner. Too bad Hizbollah have never been on Speaking terms. Only on Mortar terms. And thus the Israëli Army acts likewise to save it's people from the Threat in the North. PEOPLE, remember PEOPLE?
I really do hope that a long term Peacefull Situation will be Established
One way or the other: Hizbollah's Militant Capacity either gets damaged beyond repair and they're driven away from the Northern Israëli border, or Sheikh Nasrallah (Hizbollah's ''Boss'' and Founder) offers a credible long Term Peace Agreement While the Hypocrit World Community is WATCHING so it will be on black an white and they couldn't afford carrying out any more terrorist attacks from the Mountain to Appear Integre towards the World Community.
I see solutions might be made some day soon. people are about to get sick of the war and suffering on both sides and see that the hatred-ideaology has led them from bad to worse.
It goes both ways. I think anyone who is truely honest with themselves knows that neither side is innocent.
The problem is all the people helping them. If israel didn't get money from the US and lebanon didn't get money from iran, neither of them would be fighting. Neither of them would have a fraction of the stuff they have now and they probably couldn't even affored to do this crap. They both hate each other but we are throwing weapons into their hands and going "Yea go get them".
i voted no. the jews should have been shipped to the us or some other nation, instead of being given a nation belonging to another people, thus causing unnecessary wars.
Too bad Racism, and Anti-Semetic Racism in Particulair, Runs very Strong through American Society.Quote:
Originally Posted by King
The Jews aren't REALLY welcome in the US( because it is said we are forging World Domination Conspiracies via the US )
The Jews aren't Welcome in Europe: No NEED to explain WHY: Read About the ,strangely, often ''denied'' Holocaust.
South America is where all the Ex-Nazis fled so I don't think it'll be a suitable place for the Jewish people to live.
Perhaps the Northpole?
You know what? I am Jewish and so is my Family. and I'd like to say, to all of you who think we just need to pack our shit and MOVE (again?!).... GO FUCK YOURSELVES.
The Jewish People, exiled from their Homeland by the ROMANS, have always been Discriminated, Killed, hated and blamed for all that went wrong in Europe.
What Integre European Country could possibly think it is in ANY POSITION to tell the Jewish People, they caused So much Pain in the Holocaust Disaster, that they should leave Israël?
It is the only place that makes any sence for us to Live in. It is the Only Place we can defend ourselves from the Anti-Shem Masses. It is the Only Place we have a PLACE of our own with our own borders. NO LONGER SHALL THE JEWISH PEOPLE BE A MINORITY IN A HOSTILE NATION OTHER THAN SAFE ISRAËL.
These people have been shifted around, Exiled and SYSTEMATICALLY MURDERED ( As some DARE to denie ) for so Long they just don't give a F*CK whatever the Hypocrit World Community tells them.
I personally FIRMLY believe that the Jewish People have the RIGHT to live in the Land of Israë": Too bad the intolerant, Religiously Insane Ideaology of Hamas and Hizbollah and such are so Intolerant as to never have TOLERATED the Jewish Presence in the Middle East.
Same story for Christians. Hizbollah is Straightout an insane mad dog on the loose: They won't tolerate and will attempt to kill as many NON-muslims, Infadels, as they possibly can.
Do you think it is Reasonable to sit around the Table with An organisation that only ''Speaks'' by carying out Mortar and Misile attacks on Harmless Israëli Civilians?
Nahuh. Don't think so.
i said the jews should have been shipped to the us or another nation after ww2, instead of given israel. as of now, i think the jews should stay in israel.
and i can understand the hamas and other moslems are pissed at the jews. after all, the palestinians and moslems had to leave their homes to the jews. i know i would be angry and full of hate if someone from another nation came to my house and told me and my family to move out.
i voted no and heres why...Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonoverlord
jewish people suck.
no, no, before you get all offended again, im just kidding. I voted yes because i think u cant just give israel to those crazy palestinians just because their suicide bombing u every ten minutes. its like a whiny kid who doesnt get his way. just slap him across the face and say "NO!"
No it doesn't. US is very mixed so I am not going to argue that there is none, because theres people in the US that believe just about everything, but its definitely not "very strong".Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
I think Jewish people and the lebanese/muslims/palestinians should just all kill each other over it.that way, whoever wins, wins. and we dont have to debate about it anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by mountain
Jewish God vs. Allah battle royale!
I think we need a suprise challenger... can anyone say.... L RON HUBBARD!!!!!
Wow, no tears for the victims at Qana (in 1996 or 2006)? I guess you'd rather focus on the wrongs done to your people than the wrongs your people have done to the Lebanese and others. Many innocent people have been killed because Israel's brilliant, compassionate government and armed services don't care about where they drop bombs, and they actually have guidance systems. Are these Lebanese families part of Hezbollah? No. They're just poor people trying to make a damn living in one of the most hostile environments on Earth.Quote:
You know what? I am Jewish and so is my Family. and I'd like to say, to all of you who think we just need to pack our shit and MOVE (again?!).... GO FUCK YOURSELVES.[/b]
Let's not forget the four United Nations observers in Lebanon who were killed because the Israeli military kills indiscriminately. They were in an outpost that had been mentioned to the Israeli government. The Israeli military knew its exact location. They shelled it fourteen separate times over the course of a few hours, and an Irish observer radioed the Israelis multiple times to let them know they were striking a building with UN personnel in it. Then the Israelis dropped a 500-lb. bomb on it, and that was the end of four civilian lives. You can't tell me that's not a deliberate act of aggression. Kofi Annan even got branded anti-Semitic for stating that it was deliberate! That's not racism, it's the damn facts!
Now the Israelis are not going to allow the United Nations to repair bridges in Lebanon so that civilians can get aid. That's blatantly stupid and almost certainly a violation of international law. What is it that Israel has against innocent people?
Nah Africa doesn't want them...remember they are the reason most West African nations are poor because of Jews raping the diamond and gold mines for centuries, people know that...then calling themselves Jew-wellers, welding together Africa's stolen riches, it's disgusting how everything is ignored...Like America's pampering of Israel and it's commitment to Israel being untouchable to even criticism(it's anti-semitism they say), so what is generalization on minorities then which is constant and watered down to something less than racism...do people think? If I remember correctly America says we're supposed to feel sorry for the Jews and they claim one of the reasons they give them billions of dollars a year is because of what Hitler did to them, I agree it was sick, but who did it? Hitler...Germany right! One of the richest countries in the world...Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo
Remember what America did? A little thing call slavery?....for 400 years? Remember the native american slaughter? Millions... Where is the sympathy about that? Britain stole and gave the Jews Israel in almost the same fashion in which Liberia was stolen and given to some freed slaves by America...it's also getting raped by Jews for it's riches, and still where is the billions of dollars a year like what Israel recieves to buy weapons and build over 200 nuclear bombs(for what reson in the world I can't imagine, why and how a human could...but they're not nearly alone so much evil surrounds) from America...I guess since the government says it's legal and they're Jews you can sponsor state terrorism, theft and oppression...thats acceptable only to the sheep you created...Maybe America likes cleaning up after the mess of others instead of itself, particularly Hitler, or maybe even the Jews...they're chosen by god I guess
America and god is a touchy subject since the word isn't even allowed in schools or most public places, science is accepted as logic and fact, and even science itselff says life started in Africa in places like the Omo Valley so who would be the chosen people in a logical scientific sense, which America is supposedly based on...but even if they claim this blind loyalty is because of God's will how come they pick and choose the parts of God's will in wich to follow, the END TIMES or completion would seem more logical to follow if your going to since all will be reveiled in the end...Revelation 2:9 "I know your works, oppression, and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan....3:9 is similar...is the masses really that ignorant?
God favoured the Jews because they were slaves, they killed their own saviour according to bible history, and they created more slaves and went the ways of evil and greed up to this day, now his favour is somewhere else with real slaves...
But seriously how can anyone sympathize with the Jews after all they did and continue to do in the name of racism and opression against ALL people not of their own faith, especially muslims and Africans...not me, never, it's just a matter of time before the meaning of Newton's third law is fully realized
But when immigrants form Poland take up arms and violently throw Palestinians out of their homes.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDream;
What is this CONNECTION to Israel but sentimental imagination. Like a Irishman in New York thinking about the silly Blarney Stones.
But you know what CONNECTIONS the Palestinians have to the land.
THEY STILL HAVE THE GODDAM DEEDS TO THE LAND YOU ZIONIST MOTHERFUCKER!
Power is of the individual mind, but the mind’s power is not enough. Power of the body decides everything in the end, and only Might is Right. – T.H. WhiteQuote:
Originally Posted by Leo
Everyone can go on whining for the palestinians, but to quote the once and future king, only might is right. this political debate has become what it always would be in the end - war. and whoever wins the war will have the land. and my money's on the israelis.
your entire argument just SMELLS of anti-semitism. I've noticed that these Jewish-conspiracy theories occupy you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by jah1111
You see you BLAME ''Us'' Jews for Exploiiting ''You africans'' with the Gold and Daimond-Mining Business: Someting that is actually VERY WELL KNOWN to the world. At least it is here in The Netherlands: Talk about a Country with a SCANDALOUS past...''We The Dutch'' must have been the KINGS of the African Slave trade.
However I find this ''accusing'' of Conspiracies and False Intentions towards complete ethnic groups REDICULOUS:
We're people, and yes I DO gfeel sorry for everyone who died in Qana: I see them as PEOPLE
not as THEM ARABS. Neither as I see africans as africans or Westerlings as Westerlings...SCREW THESE LABELS. It devides people so it makes them easy to rule. Devide and Rule.
My point is that the Israëli Government DOESN'T fight out of emotional intentions and ideologies: It fights because it must. Simply Hit the Targets: Which are not radom people but HIZBOLLAH in this particulair conflict. Hizbollah use smelly Querilla techniques by hiding between their own Civilians. And they don't fight DEFENSIVE. Israël has Fully withdrawn since 2000 and they have actually always CONTINUED their OFFENSIVE actions against JEWS in General: Civilians, people like you and me. Also Victims of the Same conflict, no different from Qana.
People are people and when a family dies in a war there's no Doubt it is a tragedy: Doesn't matter what ethnicity or race they come from.
Don't get me wrong and think that I'm like sooo many people in the world, and here also, to think in Ethnic boundries.
And Leo, you have just proven to be a complete idiot. What is it you think? By calling someone who opposes your weak Opinion, a ''ZIONIST MOTHERFUCKER'' is either gunna contribute to peace in the Region or is any VALUABLE argument at all to back up your Opinion?
No it's just Cussing because when people have nothing INTELLIGENT left to say they'll just continue the ''battle'' with crude means. Cussing and fighting like little Children.
I was taught that when people loose their cool and start cussing around it means they're out of options to rationally win a debate. You have stooped to a very low level. I hope the REST of this Debate can stay INTELLIGENT.
Leo, You should have been born a KIKE. That'd be fun. Wouldn't it? You'd have to hate yourself and your Jewish family. However you seem to have a racist pre-fixed idea of what ''jews'' are.
DUDE I don't Exploit African Children for Daimonds nor do I have any plans on taking over the world by means of Jewish lobbies in the US. I haven't got ANY relatives in working as Jewelers...
ALL SO CLICHÉ. These are stereo-types, it's not how people really are.
Just like the ''Niger'' has been said to have racial Primitive and Criminal Characteristiscs.
Just like in so many American movies the ''ARAB OIL SHEIKH'' is often the Tricky terrorist Bad Guy.
Just like the Black Panthers and such have called the ''White man'' a White Devil and Inferior to the African black Race. And the other way around....
etc. there are too many of these nonsensical racial character profiles.
It's rediculous. It's racism peaking again.
I have to agree with Leo on this:
The Jews had been in Europe instead of Israel for hundreds of years, so they did not have any connection to the land of Israel, while the Palestinians had their homes there.Quote:
What is this CONNECTION to Israel but sentimental imagination. Like a Irishman in New York thinking about the silly Blarney Stones.[/b]
Oh, and SKA, perhaps you should examine what you write yourself before you call others "complete idiots" for insulting.
Quote by you
Quote:
You know what? I am Jewish and so is my Family. and I'd like to say, to all of you who think we just need to pack our shit and MOVE (again?!).... GO FUCK YOURSELVES.[/b]
I voted yes... because those countries against Isreal are the ones that have done big things I dislike.
And I changed my mind reading the thread. I can't find a valid loophole in Leo Volont's arguments. They are beautifully done. Congrats on a new convert.
...the Jews really should have purchased some land in Africa.
u put to much crap in caps lock ska. it just makes u sound angry. its unpleasant. id still get your point if u just use lowercase letters all the time. like me, i dont even use capital letters when im sposed to, cuz im such a mellow person see its not Hello. How are you? its hello. how are you. see im listening to the beach boys now, and im using lowercase letters. ur prolly lisnin to slayer, and thats prompting u to overuse the CAPITAL LETTERS IN A DISTURBING MANNER SUCH AS THIS. see it makes you be like oh! people who use lowercase letters can take a nap after there posts, as opposed to caps lock people who have to get their blood pressure checked. i think seeker should autochange all capital letters to lowercase, to promote beter general forum etiquette.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
oh and one more thing;
"Just like the ''Niger'' has been said to have racial Primitive and Criminal Characteristiscs."
haha nigger has two gs. u just said an african country has primitive and criminal characteristic and the funny thing is, niger is a very primative country in political lawless turmoil! so what you said was actually correct... thats a knee slapper.
and also thats ridiculous. if leo was born jewish, he would just agree wtih u and hate everyone else. its not like he hates the jews for something they did. he, like you, and most other people, is just blind to his own faults. he can see the wrong in others thinking (again much like yourself) but not in his own. a good prescription, or way to counteract this, is to just stop caring. if u dont care, u cant be judegmental.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
Yes, because I'm from there. And without me, the world would suck.
And the Palestinians don't want peace btw. They've been offered so much, only to refuse. I say screw them.
@ mountain:
Well Africa ISN't poor and underdeveloped because ''they are primitive idiots''. Africa's got a vivid intricate and wonderfull millenias old culture. So why haven't they flurished to become as wealthy with all their resources?
Well maybe if you'd have read your History Books you'd Know that The Europeans and Arabs have started a great scale RUINING of the entire African Continent: Slave trade was a 100000 dollar business: Europeans and Arabs had Pillaged and Plundered Africa, Enslaving nearly all strong and wise men. Then they Proceeded to Colonise Africa and draw some quick borders with a map and a pencil, putting many different ethnic populations and tribes in 1 country: Voila, the Civil wars that even now rage African Countries were born. (Same for the Middle East BTW) Another European Colonial joke: leaving the Continent Ruined and that explains the state it is currently in.
The Arabs only Partook in it because they could do mayor Slave Business with the Europeans in this foul Colonial time of European world Domination. Still Europeans and Americans exploit these Countries: they steal their resources and keep the money to themselves. It is the REASON why we are rich and why they are poor. My whole point being There ain't no such thing as Racial Characteristics such as Inferiority, Primitivity, Trickyness and Violentness: This Bullshit is meant to devide us. And to my great grief it seems to work pretty good.
Well that Go Fuck Yourselves part wasn't directed at anyone here attending this Discussion. I was merely trying to explain the Jewish people's ''Fuck You Additude''.Quote:
Originally Posted by King
Well I would have to agree on the first 2 lines a full 100% They've been offered a hand and sofar have only responded with Bullets and Qassam Missiles. That is no way of contributing to peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by King
As for the last part ''Screw them'' I thought it many times when I heard there was another suicide bombing that nearly killed my Aunt, Uncle and 2 Cousins. It was the blown up Pizza Place in the centre of Tel Aviv: They went dining there the day before the bombing.
But to seek a solution is to make a deal from which both sides, Israëli and Palestinian, would benefit in peace: The 2 state solution. However Palestinian Militant Authorities haven't shown any enthusiasm for this great plan and cotinued their unholy war.
I say: Accept the 2 state solution and THEN Israël and Palestine are on Speaking terms.
Otherwise you're just asking for a prolonged violent situation. It's time for Hamas and friends to lay down their weapons and start Negociating: something they have never done. As long as they prefer a bloody conflict over a peacefull 2 state solution there'll be no peace. You don't Talk with a party that is, at the same time, firing mortars bombs and sending suicide bombers to kill your Civillians.
I personally don't think either side wants peace. I think either side could get peave at any time but it would take some sacrifices that really neither of them want to give up.
Right now its all wishy washy stuff, they want peace but not really. They never get down to the core of the issue, and untill they do they won't get real lasting peace.
Then clearly you haven't been watching the news about Israël BEFORE it became a media hype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Israël had the most left-winged, peacefull president ever: Yitshak Rabin. Unfortunately he got shot and killed by some Insane Israëli Extremist ( see? we have them too, it's not a racial or cultural trait: it's a bad human trait)
He has negociated peace talks with Yasser Arafat and came as close to peace as no one ever before had in Israël. Yet the Palestinian Militant Organisations Al Fatah, PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aqsa and Al Quds simply continued their terror against the Jewish People in Israël.
It got so worse that under his peaceful and Goodwilling Rule Israël had a Suicide bomb attack on their hands nearly EVERY WEEK. People in Israël lived in such intense fear that after he got shot the Israëli Public opinion turned against peacefull negociations with Palestinian Authorities and Militant groups: It has been PROVEN to end up a bloody rage of terrorist bomb attacks. And so, logically, the Israëli public opinion turned more radical and less negociative. And a more right winged, more radical political party took Rabin's place. It's no wonder: No one wants to live in everyday fear of bomb attacks.
Now had these militants been as good willing as Yitshak rabin they would have lived in peace with the Israëlis now. But that wasn't so.
I never said it would be easy.
[Warning: Large. Only for serious readers]Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
No it's Defenitely not going to be easy. But I hope you get my point. Israël has tried, countless times, to make an accord, because it's civilians were constantly slaughtered. I can look up a list of all Israëli Suicide bomb attacks since Israël's foundation if you want. It'll scare the hell out of you.
And until groups such as Hamas, Al Aqsa, Al Fatah and Hizbollah lay down their weapons, discard this Jihadic Insane racist additude and abandon their ever continuing war against Israëli civilians, only Then can Israël have Serious peace talks with them.
But right now they are Terrorist Splinter Cells, Fractions and they've gone wild. They have no one, single authority. They're a sort of Middle eastern large Bandito gangs obeying no authority, making their own laws and forcing it upon the local Palestinian people. Just like Hizbollah: they have Hijacked Society. And they have used it to built a jihad militant army to crush Israël. Such is their intentions: Anti-Jewish hatred being taught to very young children in Extremist-founded and run schools, recruiting suicide bombers, storing weapons brought in via Egypt (Gaza) or iran and Syria (Hizbollah in the North) and using Palestinian and Lebanese Civil areas as platforms from which to launch Misiles and Mortars on Israëli people... These people aree insane, unstopable and they negociate with bombs. You might wanna check out their internet site.
Be scared of the racistic sickness and death-threatening sentiment of their Ideals. But this is the intense murderous hatred the Jewish people are exposed to.
Israël didn't build large costly walls because they ''wanted to dick with the palestinians'' again as everyone seems to think. That's a fable I've heard so many times. If from the Westbank border Terrorists find a route to enter Israël unseen with a bomb belt around their waste there's little you can do to stop them: You can simply not guard every 10 meters of the Border with Soldiers and guardtowers.
The wall is simply put their to keep terrorists from entering Israël unseen via ''wholes'' in the border. And the EU had to criticise Israël because of that wall. The hypocrits. If it wasn't for them, the Jewish people had no reason to completely migrate elsewhere in the first place.
And they're yelling that we should tear down that awefull wall. It's the same as saying: Bring that wall down, Muhammad has got a bus to catch!'' You know what will happen when the wall would be torn down. It's like saying: ''hey let these guys have the oppertunity to crawl in the middle of a large group of your people and blow up themselves and the surrounding 38 people as well, wounding 100s of others!''
No way. very simple.... Seemed a little rude from Israël, but that's because you don't understand why Israël has such a Fuck You additude. Look into the History books about what happened to my people since 5000 B.C. and maybe you'll understand better. It's not a Pretty Story. And thus Israël doesn't really care about what ''everyone sais'' because so many of the Jewish people died because of what ''Everyone'' thought of them. They simply don't really care anymore. They're collectively used to the Idea that another mega Death may just be a few decades away again. So they decide to make a stand. No they won't tare down that wall as it keeps too many Palestinian suicide bombers from reaching their sick goal. I like that wall. I love it. Maybe my family will survive this madness after all.
I hope I gave some of you some insights from my point of view. You see I really don't hate Palestinians, or lebanese. or arabs. I see they suffer from the ongoing Violence as well. I see in their eyes they suffer. They're humans. I can feel their pain. I couldn't bare to think of how terrible I would feel if my mother died in a bombing. It doesn't matter wether you're Arab or jew, Asian or Caucasian. I bet it really really sucks. I would love to see Jewish people and Arab People unite in the Region, but hate spreading factors like Hamas & Hizbollah are doing everything within their power to devide the arab people from the Jewish people with religious and racial hatred and stop that from happening. Every peace negociation was Ruined by another civilian bomb attack of them. Oh yes I Hate Hamas and Hizbollah. But no I don't hate Arabs. It's such a wide term. Too many people too many different Hearts and Minds. Not possibly all people of one Ethnicity can be pure evil or pure good. They are like us, people.
In fact my grandparents, before they moved to Israël were Moroccan jews: arab Sephardic jews. I even have one Indian-Jewish aunt living in Israël. There's so many places Jewish people came back to Israël from. Really no reason to start being Discriminative of race and ethnicity because the Jewish people are a very racially and ethnically mixed people. It's too bad racism is nearly everywhere, also in Israël of course. Stupid people are everywhere. That isn't racially defined.
But In Israël the Government is in Control. Not some Rogue racistic, extremely Religious hate spreading Organisation as is seen in Palestine. The government is chosen democratically and thus a reflection of the people's opinion. The army will take no action untill the government has decided it is legitimate. And the amount of Militairy action taken is Decided by what Political party with what plans the people of Israël Elect. The Israëli opinion has since the reign of Jihadic terror turned against Hamas and Hizbollanh..etc Radically. No wonder when you lost your daughters, sons, moms, dads,, brothers and sisters in those countless Palestinian Bomb attacks.
The Government in Jerusalem is not seated there just to''fuck around with those Palestinians'' or whatever bullshit so many believe. They take action when nececairy in order to protect their civilians. If that means going deep into a Neighboring country and striking the Terrorists who live in urban area's of Lebanon...Then so be it. You can not stand by and watch Hizbollah and other sick minded groups Bombard your towns and cities while Lebanon's (Iran & Syria-puppeted) Government does nothing to Stop them even after having reached a Peace accord with Israël in 2000.
No it's not gonna be easy. I can do nothing but keep hoping for better days.
Neat!
If the Jews think their ancestral land is worth the bomb risk, the historical sentiment must be strong with them indeed. I still hold the opinion they made a mistake in trying to establish their homes in a crowded third-world region.
When people have very little pocessions, you can't expect them to be polite or even reasonable. What little resources courtesy or ration demands may threaten their existence. A little bit of land may not seem a good deal to the affluent Jews or the western majority; it may be all an Arab has. Poor people grow up immersed in global media; they know life can be very different. It is natural to feel robbed somewhat, and such sentiment is common in the third world. Therefore don't be surprised when the Arabs raised fanatics as those you named.
I deeply feel for van Loon's opinion that there are no what-ifs in history. Alas for the individuals caught up in the struggle. They are 'only the scapegoat, it is true darkness which begets decadence.'*
*coined by Grenideer
Maybe they should totally pull out of every where and release all the palestinian prisoners.
Israël pulled out of lebanon in 2000 completely, making a peace accord with the Lebanese Government. However Hizbollah doesn't give a shit about the Israëli or the Lebanese government. That's why I'm glad that the Unifil-force is finally there to keep both parties from bombarding eachother into oblivion forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
And about Palestinian prisoners: Those imprisoned are no innocent people. They're a danger to Israëli Society. Just like the 1000s of Militants still attacking Israël. I could understand them better if they would direct their hatred towards Israëli Militairy men instead of what they always did: Directing their violence at Civilians: Non combattants.
Well I sure hope that a Definite accord can be made with the help of Uniful and under the Pressure of the World Community.
And the jewish people had no place to go where they'd be safe anywayz. Israël is the only country that would make any sense for them to return to. It is a simple fact that Jewish people aren't welcome pretty much anywhere in the world. Do you think Jewish people would have Fled from wealthy and modern Europe to build up a Nation in a Third World-Region from SCRATCH unless they had a Good reason for it? In fact Israël was Mostly SWAMPS and Dry Dessert hills before 1948: The Jewish Migrants worked for years and died trying to dry out the Un Inhabitable swamps and making the land suitable for living, agraculture and building again: The land that the Palestinians claim as theirs was for large parts nothing but Swamps where no man could live. They had to irradicate Malaria there first too. So the Jews drain the Swamps, irradicate Massive Malaria, Turn Dry Dessert Hills into land able to LIVE on....and then they have to give it away to the Palestinians? Is that Rightious? haha Rediculous.
Theodor Hertzl, The father of the Zionist Movement, knew that what happened to the Jews in WW2 would happen again in time as the hatred for the Jews ran deep and never disappeared. I have been to his Grave in Jerusalem. I was young at the time, but I hope to Return there some day soon and actually THANK him for my very Existance. Thank him for the light in my eyes.
My hopes are that the Jewish people can live safe from Anti-Semitic Violence and in peace with it's Middle Eastern neighbors one day.
Google Search for ''The Mufti of Jerusalem'' and maybe you'll Understand that the Jewish people were never welcome and embraced as friends by the Arab Population of Israël and that the Anti-jewish hatred was present in the Middle east since the Brittish were there and hardly any Jewish people lived there yet.
Some never left Israël, most (unlucky ones) fled to Europe and other (lucky ones) fled to Arab countries and Spanish/North African Countries, Like my family. Jews and Muslims have always lived in peace untill the Israëli conflict arose. After that not only the European Jews had all reason to feel unsafe, but also the Arab Jews had to fear for their lives. My dad told me how Jewish people and shopkeepers were killed in the Streets: He had seen it happen. Had my Grandparents and their children not fled to Israël they might have been killed in the Anti-Jewish Sentiment that arose in their homeland Morocco too.
My Grandfather had a LiquorStore in CasaBlanca, Morocco. After the French left, Sharia (Islamic Law) was installed there and Alcohol banned. Not only was he and his family in danger of hostile arab sentiment, but also he could kiss his Business goodbye. I don't find it any wonder he and his Family fled to Israël. Wouldn't he have done that, most probably I would not have been sitting here and writting this. Most likely I would not even ever have been born.
The first thing my GrandFather did after he arrived in Israël and walked the land was kneel down and kiss the ground of that land. I suppose you understand why.
If only the Arab population of Israël would have some understanding of the Jewish interrests of why they wanted to live in Israël once again there might have never been a conflict and people could have just blended in there.
Since that is not so I can only hope that one day people will become so sick of the war and hatred that they'll try and understand eachother. And learn to negociate with WORDS. I don't see that happening for a while because Hizbollah and such organisations educate young arabs to hate and kill the jews from the age of 5: Promises plenty of Future Terrorist minded Souls.
I hope it'll all cool down and that the lebanese government will get their shit together and become a SERIOUS and integre peace partner with SERIOUS and lasting peace-agreements can be made. Same for The Palestinian Authorities.
The Militants should be replaced by Politicians.
I wonder what future historians will have to say about this. I voted NO because it is a stupid place for a Jewish state. It was asking for trouble. Now the people both in Israel and out are suffering for it. Historical reasons don't matter. They should've left the Middle East. It's not worth losing lives over.