Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure.
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Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure.
I don't know enough about it either way to form a generalization.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure.
Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison. Not only is it dangerous for the felines in their self defense, but it's incredibly painful. How can you defend yourself against a predatory animal if your claws are nullified? Iunno. Pretty sick. Just like neutering and spaying.
Wow, I would've tended to agree with you until you reached the very last sentence - then my opinion changed. :bslap:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison. Not only is it dangerous for the felines in their self defense, but it's incredibly painful. How can you defend yourself against a predatory animal if your claws are nullified? Iunno. Pretty sick. Just like neutering and spaying.
But this is probably not the place to get into a debate. :wink:
...more like ripping off the tips of all your fingersQuote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Pulling out your own fingernails may be a comparison.
yeah I'll just move it to extended discussionQuote:
Originally posted by Burns
But this is probably not the place to get into a debate. :wink:
it's a pretty good debate, I've been torn on both the declawing issues as well as the neuter/spaying issues
Well if you think about it, on the issue of spaying and neutering, one of the basic reasons we exist is to reproduce. Take away one of our main reasons for being and I think you have a bit of a moral dilemma.
there's more to consider than just "reason for existence". reproduction may be a by-product (usually) of existence, but there is no way you can reasonably claim it is "reason" for existence. regardless, humans have created a situation for dogs and cats in which without neutering/spaying, there is an even greater number of kittens/puppies doomed to suffer and/or die prematurely. i don't like the idea of neutering/spaying, because i think i would be pretty bummed put in the same situation, but i think the alternative is much worse. already there are waaaaaaaay too many dogs and cats "living" in shelters either wasting away or waiting to be shipped off to the dog food factory.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Well if you think about it, on the issue of spaying and neutering, one of the basic reasons we exist is to reproduce. Take away one of our main reasons for being and I think you have a bit of a moral dilemma.
declawing on the other hand is probably the single most inhumane thing humans do to cats. the claws are integral to the cat's physical existence (i've read that without claws they are unable to properly stretch their spines due to not being able to get a grip on whatever surface they are standing on) and it's psychological existence (imagine being almost totally impotent in a world where everything that moves is a potential enemy/prey/toy).
I could probably write a huge thread about this - but I won't.
Firstly, unless you are using an animal for strict breeding or showing purposes, it needs to be spayed or neutered. That is the most important thing in responsible pet ownership. If you love animals, why would you want thousand (or more), unwanted and unloved animals suffering and dying?? Spayed or neutered animals have no sense of "ego" where they feel like less of a man (or woman) because they can't procreate. Actually, they can still go through the motions if they want, they just can't make babies. If you have an unspayed or unneutered pet (that's not being strictly used for breeding or showing purposes), you are an irresponsible idiot who shouldn't have pets to begin with.
As far as declawing goes, I personally do not declaw my cats. I trim their nails and train them to use their scratching posts. Although, I understand why some people do it - in my opinion, if it's a matter of declawing a cat so it can have a happy, comfortable life in someone's home rather than being taken to a shelter and possibly euthanized, I'd say declaw the cat. However, I always recommend everyone try alternatives before actually declawing. Some people think that just because they have a cat, it needs to be declawed. You cannot train a cat not to scratch - but you can train it to scratch in appropriate places. We recommend declawing as young as 3lbs, because it's less painful for the cat and they heal faster when they're small.
I would say more, but I have to go to work. I'll go into more detail about both of these issues later tonight.
Well if it's a house cat it is a different story. I live in the country in the middle of France, where there is by no means an overpopulation of cats or dogs. My cat Bandit's not spayed because people WANT kittens around here. Farmers keep tons of cats in their barns to mouse and get rid of other pesks. Many cats die due to cars, and I have experienced many cat's deaths due to this, but this has nothing to do with spaying or neutering cats.
We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. People call this inhumane; but we are doing this so that we don't have to give up kittens to a shelter where they will die anyhow. It is difficult to find homes for kittens here. In this respect, I see your point well. I disagree with it only because where I live it is not necessary, and I judge it from my environment.
In cities, where cats and dogs are stray scruffy starving animals, I definetly see the neccessity to spay and neuter. Declawing is a different story. When animals can be outside, like here, they can trim their own claws by climbing and clawing trees in example. For house cats I see it as unneccesary in many ways. Cats can be trained not to scratch humans. Cat's claws can be trimmed. Cats can use scratching posts. I think it's just a lazy excuse that people use. Instead of making an effort for their animals, they simply declaw them.
I haven't had the chance to read through everyone's post here (pressed for time), so excuse me if I'm just repeating what's already been said:
I think that declawing cats is terrible. You can clip cat's claws, you can train cats, and there's probably even more alternatives than that. What's even worse, is when people DO get their cats declawed, and they take out both the front AND back claws, so if the cat does get into a fight with another cat, it has no way of defending itself unless it can get the chance to bite. Someday, I hope to be a veterinarian, and that's probably a procedure that I will not be performing, or, I hope that I'll have that choice.
As far as spaying and neutering goes, I don't find that a terrible thing like declawing, but unless you plan on breeding your cat, it's probably neccessary.
I agree. A collegue of mine will not do declaws, either.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>This has EVERYTHING to do with spaying an neutering - why do you think there are loose cats running around?? Because they're outside reproducing. It's irresponsible to own a cat that goes outside, and not spay or neuter it - pure ignorance.Quote:
Many cats die due to cars, and I have experienced many cat's deaths due to this, but this has nothing to do with spaying or neutering cats.[/b]
Absolutely true. There is NEVER a reason to have all 4 feet declawed. That's just cruel and ridiculous.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>You can't possibly say that there isn't an overpopulation of cats - does every cat that lives outside have an owner? ...yeah, exactly. :roll: Feral cats do play a role in pest control, but a single cat will kill an average of 10 mice PER DAY. Do the math.Quote:
I live in the country in the middle of France, where there is by no means an overpopulation of cats or dogs.[/b]
Okay, now read what you continue to say below... you completely contradict youself.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
My cat Bandit's not spayed because people WANT kittens around here.
Then stop breeding your cats!! WTF?? :doh:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. It is difficult to find homes for kittens here.
Wrong - they don't TRIM they're own nails - they SHARPEN them.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
When animals can be outside, like here, they can trim their own claws by climbing and clawing trees in example.
This I actually agree with. People don't want to put the effort into training their cats to have their nails trimmed and use scratching posts. Scratching is natural cat behavior - you cannot train a cat not to scratch.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
For house cats I see it as unneccesary in many ways. Cats can be trained not to scratch humans. Cat's claws can be trimmed. Cats can use scratching posts. I think it's just a lazy excuse that people use. Instead of making an effort for their animals, they simply declaw them.
A cat scratches for 3 reasons:
1. To sharpen their claws
2. To scent mark the area (there are scent glands located on the bottom of the foot)
3. To stretch the muscles in the foot, foreleg, and shoulder
I always tell people that if they are going to be letting their cat go outside AT ALL - do not have it declawed (for obvious reasons).
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What's even worse, is when people DO get their cats declawed, and they take out both the front AND back claws, so if the cat does get into a fight with another cat, it has no way of defending itself unless it can get the chance to bite.
And like you said, many people don't realize that when they declaw a cat, they are more likely to start biting more.
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Someday, I hope to be a veterinarian, and that's probably a procedure that I will not be performing, or, I hope that I'll have that choice.
If you need any guidance or info about the veterinary field, please feel free to PM me, Courtney. I would love to give you more info if you'd like. :)
Thanks! :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>So if you grew up and had twins, would you kill one of them off because you apparently can't handle many babies? :? It's the same concept.Quote:
We've had kittens a few times, and since we can't handle having a full liter we kill a few at birth. People call this inhumane; but we are doing this so that we don't have to give up kittens to a shelter where they will die anyhow.[/b]
I'm sorry, but I find that really heartless. I mean, killing kittens? I can't even believe it. Honestly. They're just babies. I don't know about France, but in American I'm pretty sure that's a form of animal cruelty. For beating an animal, I'm pretty sure you can go to jail, depending on what you're charged for. But you. You're killing them.
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If you need any guidance or info about the veterinary field, please feel free to PM me, Courtney. I would love to give you more info if you'd like. :)
I was just wondering, how do you fix a cat?
In males, it's commonly called "neutering." The medical term is orchectomy. Two small incisions are made in the scrotum, and each testicle is removed, the cords tied off - and that's it. No sutures are even used. Honestly, it takes longer to anesthetize the cat than it does to actually neuter it. The males wake up and are acting normally right away - they don't miss a thing.Quote:
Originally posted by Sortilegio
I was just wondering, how do you fix a cat?
Males should be neutered soon after the testicles drop into the scrotum, this way none of the undesirable male traits (such as urine spraying and marking) are ingrained.
In females, it's called commonly "spaying." The medical term is ovariohysterectomy. An incision is made on the midline of the abdomen, the uterus and uterine horns are tied off and removed. The body wall and skin layer are sutured back together.
Females should be spayed around 5 months old, or before the first heat cycle. If a female has a heat cycle before she is spayed, she is at MUCH higher risk for mammary cancer later in life (I've seen so many mammary cancer cases lately!).
I think that spaying/neutering is very necessary for cats and dogs. Why would you want so many little animals running around, being killed and such? It kills me to see a stray, and we always end up having to take strays to the Animal Shelter because we can't keep them. And because we live in the country, animals get dumped on us (mostly baby animals) constantly. If people got their animals neutered, I wouldn't have to shed a thousand tears for the cat we had to take into a strange place with other animals, and where they might or might not find a home.
Anyway, declawing is probably the most cruel thing you could do to a cat. Cats need their claws, just like we need fingertips and nails of our own. Though scratching may be an annoying occurance, you can always train your cat to refrain from this. It's pretty easy.
Finally! Someone who gets it! :thanks:Quote:
Originally posted by Gwendolyn
I think that spaying/neutering is very necessary for cats and dogs. Why would you want so many little animals running around, being killed and such? It kills me to see a stray, and we always end up having to take strays to the Animal Shelter because we can't keep them. And because we live in the country, animals get dumped on us (mostly baby animals) constantly. If people got their animals neutered, I wouldn't have to shed a thousand tears for the cat we had to take into a strange place with other animals, and where they might or might not find a home.
I think one of the the worst things ever is when I see a kitten that's been run over or hit by a car
I know we made cars and roads and shit, but....it's not like we're gonna undo that anytime soon
at least we can control the stray population by spaying/neutering (though I agree with mongrel's anti-declawing spiel)
I hate that so much! Of course, I live in the country, so this happens a whole lot, thanks to some inconsiderate asshole who didn't neuter their cats and dumped the kittens so that they could be killed.Quote:
Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I think one of the the worst things ever is when I see a kitten that's been run over or hit by a car
We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats).
Wow - maybe you should stop posting about this. I never thought anyone could be so evil.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything.
You are delusional to say that killing kittens is more humane than spaying/neutering them.
A newborn kitten is incapable of making any vocalizations until it is 2 weeks old - but just because it can't scream in pain doesn't mean it doesn't feel anything!!
I'm sorry, but you make me sick. :mad:
I don't think killing animals is very humane unless the animal is already in immense pain and nothing else could help it. I am sorry, but life isn't despencable...It isn't something you can just throw away. So what if instead of using birth control, mothers just had so many kids and killed the rest after they were born because they no longer needed children. Same concept. Human babies can feel pain, so what makes you think kittens or any other babies don't? I don't know how you came to that conclusion...whoever told you that was lying.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats).
Wow, what's wromg with a quick death? I would rather die this instand not knowing what would happen then have my balls cut off, or my nails pulled out.
And allso, if I was a cat I might not understand it, but I would mis my good ol' testicles :'(
Like stated before: (a quick and painless) death is overrated ^__^
Actually, no you wouldn't. Cats have no sense of ego (i.e. male vs. neutered male).Quote:
Originally posted by Neruo
And allso, if I was a cat I might not understand it, but I would mis my good ol' *testicles :'(
I had a guy come into the hospital a few months ago with his unneutered male outdoor cat that (unsurprisingly) had a bite wound abscess. Intact males wander around, picking fights with other cats, and spreading diseases like feline leukemia and FIV. We had to sedate the cat in order to flush the wound, and we begged this guy to let us neuter the cat while he was already sedated. He refused, saying that if the cat didn't have his balls, how would he have sex? That was the most ignorant comment (aside from Chainsaw Kitten's comments above), that I've ever heard. Just because you neuter a cat, doesn't mean he can't go through the motions of intercourse - he just can't impregnate the female. Spayed and neutered cats lead a much longer, healthier lives than intact cats. This guy was pretty much living his sex life through his cat. How sad is that? You can't put you're sexual emotions into a cat, because they aren't the same.
Hmm. I couldn't imagine advocating terminating kittens over sterilization; that sounds like a seriously aberrant system of morals.
The nervous system is most certainly developed at birth; it absolutely must be because they have few other senses that are immediately working (sight, sound). For crying out loud, the neural tube & notochord (becoming the spinal column shortly after) form *very* early in development and are essential in the developing embryo. If they didn't have a functioning nervous system, they would never be able to determine if they were touching the mother, thus could not find a nipple to feed. Nor could they determine if the mother was accidentally sitting on them, and cry out to alert the mother. OF COURSE THEY FEEL PAIN.
Furthermore, for those who are unfamiliar with the proper definition of domestication, it's when we artificially select (versus natural selection) for particular traits, eventually leading to a species that is dependent on us for survival--that cannot survive on its own. That's basically what we've [unintentionally] engineered dogs & cats to become. Thus, Bob Barker totally has the right idea...if you don't want puppies/kittens, and don't intend on looking after them, then "have your pet spayed or neutered today." My God, can you imagine if he said, "have your unwanted kittens killed today?"
*shivers*
while i agree that neutering/spaying is the right way to go, i think this statement is a little asburd. there's no way you can say how cats/dogs feel about losing their ability to reproduce. we can HOPE they don't notice the difference, but that's about it. one thing i DO know, is that neutering/spaying changes the animal's personality permanently..whether that has to do with hormones, spite or something completely different, i don't really know--but as of yet, there is no way to understand how animals feel about things with any amount of certainty.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
Actually, no you wouldn't. Cats have no sense of ego (i.e. male vs. neutered male).
Well the guy that leads his sex life though his cat is kind of sick.
Anyhow, really, I doubt the mother would even notice if you just take one of it's 10 kittens and give it a little injection in another room and burry it outside.
I doubt the cat would care to.
I mean, I never heard a baby complain about anything.
:D
this is the best point i have heard in this thread...and the reason i am against owning a pet, even though i love animals.Quote:
Furthermore, for those who are unfamiliar with the proper definition of domestication, it's when we artificially select (versus natural selection) for particular traits, eventually leading to a species that is dependent on us for survival--that cannot survive on its own[/b]
owning a pet is like owning a slave to me. it doesn't matter if you care for it, and look out for its welfare, it exists primarily as a human possession, which serves to bring enjoyment to its master/owner.
if i owned a human slave and treated it with respect and perhaps even a measure of 'love', would that change the basic fact it is still a slave?
:D i am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion..
there is a breed of dog (which a friend of mine owned) which has been bred so selectively for desired characteristics, including size, that the mother cannot give birth naturally without killing herself and her offspring.
it must have its stomach incised (what's the name for that again?)
sure, he enjoyed the dog's company,and took good care of it, but that doesn't mean the whole process isn't unnatural and selfish IMO.
--------
still, breeding an animal for companionship is still borderline acceptable to me, except most also require us to provide them with meat in order to survive (dogs and cats).
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spring04/P.../Processing.htm
this meat obviously has to come from somewhere, and it usually is composed of the remains of animal carcasses which are unfit for human consumption. the pet food industry is in many ways a garbage disposal from these byproducts of largescale meat industries which often cause incredible suffering and diress to animals as intelligent as those we value as pets.
hypocritical if you ask me. this even shows in law. it is a crime to kick a dog or cat to death, and yet factory farming is perfectly acceptable...what's the bloody difference?
well, a steak brings us pleasure, and so does a pet. i see a very grey line between processing animals for physical food, and processing animals for psychological food.
in the end its still processing animals for selfish reasons, and stripping them of their natural environment and lifestyle.
one of the few things i see no problem with is taming a wild horse by non-violent means, or a sheep, etc. they are forced from birth to accept human dominance, and it is wholly their 'choice' (as much as that word is applicable to non-human animals.)
It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.Quote:
Originally posted by mongreloctopus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mongreloctopus)</div>If you think they feel heartbroken that they can't make babies, you're wrong. You are attributing human male ego emotions to the strict sexually ingrained nature of animals. Of course humans are animals, too, but humans (apart from some other primates) are the only species who have sex for fun, not purely for reproduction.Quote:
there's no way you can say how cats/dogs feel about losing their ability to reproduce. [/b]
A lot of people have pets for the same reason they have kids. And some people (including myself) decide they'd rather have pets than children, so their pets are essentially a part of the family. They are loved, cared for, played with, and thought of in the same way people think of their kids. Often times, the death of pet can be more traumatizing than the death of a loved one (person).Quote:
Originally posted by wombing@
owning a pet is like owning a slave to me. it doesn't matter if you care for it, and look out for its welfare, it exists primarily as a human possession, which serves to bring enjoyment to its master/owner.
This is not the case with some pet owners - just turn on the TV and watch Animal Cops for proof. But for the most part, people think of a pet as an extension of the family.
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there is a breed of dog (which a friend of mine owned) which has been bred so selectively for desired characteristics, including size, that the mother cannot give birth naturally without killing herself and her offspring. *
*it must have its stomach incised (what's the name for that again?)
Oh my god. This is true? That is totally and without a doubt crazy! Shows how much I know sometimes.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.
I honestly can't even believe you. Do you really think that KILLING the kittens, and taking their LIVES is better than allowing them to live with a minor procedure?? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think newborn's can't feel anything.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
We have kittens. We keep a few. We kill the rest. This procedure has been done for the last I don't know how many years and is a lot more humane than neutering or spaying.They're newborn and don't even feel anything. Out here in the country maybe a few cats don't have owners but you can't have a perfect world. I agree with spaying and neutering but here it just isn't neccessary for ME to do it because everybody else does (except for the farmers who all want cats).
I just can't even comprehend how cold-hearted that is. It's infanticide. "
"But you can't have a perfect world" is no excuse for what you're doing. You honestly should be ashamed of yourself. It's sick and wrong. The best I can hope for is that some sort of animal protection agency (the French equivalent to the ASPCA or something) takes your cats and pets away from you. I know that's a horrible thing to say, but I don't think you have any idea of what you're doing.
Oooh, I found something for you. Here is a treaty, signed by France and other European countries called the "European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals" I also looked up the French laws against animal killing and cruelty, but I couldn't read them...they where in French, go figure.
http://www.animallaw.info/treaties/itceceets125.htm
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that you could be turned in for what you're doing, and either have to pay a large fine, or jail time.
well um i get most of my knowledge from The Price is RIght ...and uh bob barker is always saying you've got to spay and neuter your pets soo...im going avec Bob on this one... :poke: i guess uh yah they dont have that show france?
Ohhh... ach... now, I'd never heard that before... that's just horrible. I mean, I'm NOT at all a dog person, I hate dogs to be honest, but that... no, that's terrible nonetheless.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
It's a bulldog, and I also totally disagree with this. The puppies' heads are so large that they can't fit through the birth canal of the bitch. I can't believe anyone would breed an animal that couldn't give birth naturally. I'm completely against this and have always been.
None of our cats have been declawed, I've had three in my lifetime. We try to teach them to scratch scratcing posts, etc, but it's pretty much useless. Our current cat, Taz, is a pretty smart bugger. He learnt from a neighbour's cat, Robbie (a siamese) that he could get our attention by DELIBERATELY scratching on the sofa. So, he started scratching on the sofa whenever he wanted to go out, or be fed... he's stopped now, but when he used to do this, you oughtta seen the look on 'is face. Cats are smart... he knew damn well what he was doing pissed us off, and exactly because of that, he continued to rip our sofa to shreds.
ALL our cats have been spayed or neutered. In the case of our second cat, Tabitha, when she was one or two years old. This is unfortunate, as I know you're not meant to spay them so late, but she was a stray we took in, so we didn't exactly have much choice in the matter... (sorry Burns!)
As for neutering... I can understand why people don't like having their cats neutered, especially male owners... it's an empathy thing, mainly. Frankly, I'd prefer to have my cat Taz not neutered, but really, it's just not wise. It's better for him, and me, that he's neutered... so he was...
Personally I don't see what is wrong with killing them, or spraying/neutering them. In some places the consequences of not neutering cats goes beyond more cats that nobody wants, and cats can become a real feral pest. Many wildlife parks in Aus spend thousands of dollars a year on trapping feral cats because large populations of them can do huge damage to many ecosystems and wipe out populations of native animals. In this case it's pretty naive to let cats roam around unsterilised, as it doesn't take much to do a lot of ecological damage. I don't think the act of neutering has any effect on the animal other than hormonal, we neuter close to 4,000 sheep a year and they are still perfectly able to live their lives.
Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.
Okay, I'm not gonna "fire and brimstone" you, Roller, because quite frankly, I see where you're coming from.Quote:
Originally posted by Roller
Personally I don't see what is wrong with killing them, or spraying/neutering them. In some places the consequences of not neutering cats goes beyond more cats that nobody wants, and cats can become a real feral pest. Many wildlife parks in Aus spend thousands of dollars a year on trapping feral cats because large populations of them can do huge damage to many ecosystems and wipe out populations of native animals. In this case it's pretty naive to let cats roam around unsterilised, as it doesn't take much to do a lot of ecological damage. I don't think the act of neutering has any effect on the animal other than hormonal, we neuter close to 4,000 sheep a year and they are still perfectly able to live their lives.
Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.
However, already in one country (China), HUMAN babies are killed at birth, due to the overpopulation problems there. Now, you may say that there's a massive difference between killing animals at birth, and killing humans at birth, but me? I don't think the gap is actually that large. If people are willing to kill animals at birth to solve overpopulation and ecological issues, then I don't think that it's that much of a leap to do the same to humans... and, like I said, this is already happening.
Now, while I agree with you that animals such as cats cannot be allowed to roam wild unsterilised, I just think that killing them is NOT the right answer. If sterilisation is available, that is a far more viable alternative: sure, the sterilised cats may kill other animals during their lifetime, but the actual harm they could cause would be exponentially less, due to their inability to breed.
You say that wildlife parks in Oz spend shitloads each year catching and killing feral cats. I believe you. However, why do you think they kill them and not sterilise them? Simple.
It's all about money. They just don't want to shell out to have the operation necessary to sterilise the (I am assuming) huge volume of cats they catch. Most likely, cheap as these operations may be, it's cheaper to just kill them instead.
Killing animals for food I am okay with. I like my steak as much as (actually, a HELL of a lot more than) most people.
But when you're killing animals simply to save money? That, mein freund, is where I draw my line in the sand.
It is simply moraly contradictory to have a pet that you won't neuter, to let them go around having more so you can kill them because you find neutering wrong :wtf2: ; If you wan't your cat but don't wan't the babies then just neuter the damn cat, what is wrong with you, its like saying you love screwing but hate using condoms cause its unatural, so when the baby comes you simply kill it :? .
On the declawing thing, I find it kind of bad, why won't the owners simply cut their cats claws every now and then, are they to lazy :|
As Matt said, I don't have one damn problem with killing an animal for food, but nobody is going to be eating the cats your killing. How is there not a difference?Quote:
Originally posted by Roller
Like I said, I also don't think there is anything wrong with killing kittens, but this doesn't mean I run around with an evil grin on my face abducting people's cats, torturing them and then clubbing them to death. IF it is quick and painless, then I don't have a problem with it, and see no difference between that and killing cattle or sheep to get meat on the dinner-table. I think that you might be a vegetarian, Courtney so obviously you'd have a different opion on that. At home when I was a kid we once found a heap of feral kittens in one of our sheds and we had to break their necks rather than let them go feral, which was a bit sad but quick and painless.
for exactly the same reason that ex-wild animals now have to be neutered/spayed, is why some of these same animals have to be killed at birth. sure, it's a bummer, but WE made it this way, and we have to live within the confines of a system WE created. once we step in and play god, it doesn't matter if something seems morally wrong, it's now become our duty to make sure things don't get even worse. killing of kittens/puppies is necessary in some places, at some times.
I'd say killing animals to preserve native environment, ecosystems and species is quite justified. For some species neutering is indeed viable - mainly on small islands where it is much easier to control the population. In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.Quote:
Originally posted by Gwendolyn+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gwendolyn)</div>Well that's true, but killing feral cats isn't just for the fun of it - they can do irreprable harm to ecosystems, even driving a few native species to the brink of extinction. It's the same with rabbits, foxes, cane toads, pigs, goats, horses carp etc - feral doesn't just mean wild, it means doing irrepreble damage and causing extinctions.Quote:
As Matt said, I don't have one damn problem with killing an animal for food, but nobody is going to be eating the cats your killing. How is there not a difference?[/b]
I agree that if it were killing cats just because they weren't wanted or just for soemthing to do, it would be not only cruel but pathetic.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Blue Meanie
Killing animals for food I am okay with. I like my steak as much as (actually, a HELL of a lot more than) most people.
But when you're killing animals simply to save money?
you just wanna shoot stuff :PQuote:
Originally posted by Roller
In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.
I'm kidding, you have a good point there...environment does play a roll in what method is best for controlling stray populations
ok so my family has had many cats and most of them have been fixed and front claws removed and the last cat we had like 15 years ago ... damn i miss that cat .....had a a bad time after the removal because we had him fixed at the same time so it was bad
but we just got a new cat like 2 months ago and just last week was declawed and she was fine the first day didnt even phase her .... and another thing they are indoor cats so they dot need the claws
Roller, you seem to be missing the entire point of what I was saying.Quote:
Originally posted by Roller
I'd say killing animals to preserve native environment, ecosystems and species is quite justified. For some species neutering is indeed viable - mainly on small islands where it is much easier to control the population. In isolated outback bushland it is much more practical to cull the population than desex.
The reason they catch and kill the cats is because they can't be fucked paying to have them neutered or speyed. The reason for killing the cats isn't to stop that particular cat doing damage tio the ecosystem, but to stop it breeding and having shitloads of other cats that do an exponentially greater amount of harm than that original cat.
In fact, it would actually be BETTER if they fixed the cats and release them, than if they just caughts and killed them. Here's why:
If you catch and kill the cats, then that means that every cat still in the wild can still breed. Therefore, every time any of the cats mate, there's the normal chance that they are going to have babies. IE, a high chance.
BUT if you ctach, fix, and then release cats again back into the wild, that means you've got an increasing number of cats who are "duds": they can fuck, but they can't actually produce offspring. Therefore, when any two cats mate from now on, there's an increasingly greater chance that they won't produce offspring, because one of the two involved in the mating has been fixed. Therefore, there should be fewer and fewer litters of kittens being produced per fertile female, cos an increasing number of the males she mates with are going to be "fixed" and unable to impregnate her.
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.Quote:
Originally posted by Courtney
I honestly can't even believe you. *Do you really think that KILLING the kittens, and taking their LIVES is better than allowing them to live with a minor procedure?? You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think newborn's can't feel anything. *
I just can't even comprehend how cold-hearted that is. *It's infanticide. "
"But you can't have a perfect world" is no excuse for what you're doing. *You honestly should be ashamed of yourself. It's sick and wrong. The best I can hope for is that some sort of animal protection agency (the French equivalent to the ASPCA or something) takes your cats and pets away from you. *I know that's a horrible thing to say, but I don't think you have any idea of what you're doing.
We actually just got a new female cat (well she'll be here soon) and she's going to have a litter but then it's neutering time for her. And this time since we found candidates for the kittens it's not a problem at all.
You know, Chainsaw Kitten, I have a nagging suspicion you're deliberately trying to stir...Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
I'm just being dead honest.
I can't believe that a simple issue like fixing yor cat can really show such moral differences. Its pretty darn shocking to me actually. I personal do believe in spaying and neutering personal animals. My current cat was a neighborhood stray and a neighborhood whore. The previous owner couldn't take care of her so he tossed her to the curb. She gave birth to two litters out on the street most of which died or were seized but animal control. I finally got frustrated with seeing the lack of concern about her so I got her to trust me and took her in pregnant again. The biggest problem I had was the fact as soon as she gave birth she would get out and pregnant again. Getting people to take them became an impossible task. I tryed hard to keep her inside. Burns would be able to answer this better then me but I was told that when a a cat is in heat that it is actually painful for them not to mate. Like a form of torture. So that leaves a dilemma. Allow them to mate and overpopulate, send they babies to the animal control and have them put to sleep, don't let your cat mate and cause them discomfort, or have them fixed. (Having had a male cat also whom I had fixed has its own set of problems also.) I opt to have them fixed. I personally wouldn't do anything to my cat that I wouldn't have done to myself. The surgery is by far more humane then alot of other alternatives. And in my cat's case she seems almost relieved not having to deal with the drive to have to mate. :D
I agree once you no longer plan on breeding neutering/spaying is neccessary. Cleo got killed by a dog when her kittens were 4 weeks old so I raised them on the bottle. Cute babies. She gave birth only to two, Leo and Bandit. Leo was killed by a car before he reached a year. Bandit is alive and healthy. We would have neutered Cleo but she was killed... and obviously it was no longer needed to prevent her from reproducing. :cry:
Cookie had a litter of 7. We had to kill a few at birth and all the rest found happy homes. Trust me, I was heartbroken and young when this happened but I knew that it had to happen. My dad grew up on a farm where the same procedure has been done for ages. We neutered cookie after because any ammount of kittens would be too many.
And we plan on having a litter now with a new female and then having her neutered.
It's amazing how fucking ignorant some people can be. Seriously - WTF? :shakehead2:Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
It seems unlikely young aminals don't feel. If you kick a baby in the nuts, it will sure get some mental trauma from it...
however, or it matters... not like they know wtf is going on.
Nope, not true.Quote:
Originally posted by ravenqueen
I was told that when a a cat is in heat that it is actually painful for them not to mate. Like a form of torture.
Yes, they sound like they're in pain, but the rolling and yowling is only to attract males. They also release a pheromone that attracts males from miles around. If you've ever heard a cat in heat, I'm not surprised you'd think someone was killing it, but being in season is not painful at all.
Here is a spaying/neutering client education guide I wrote for my hospital:
Spaying and neutering is probably the most important procedure associated with responsible pet care. Every pet, except those being used strictly for breeding or showing purposes, should be spayed or neutered. Also, any pet that has any access to the outdoors should be spayed or neutered to prevent any unwanted litters.
What’s the difference between spaying and neutering?
Females are considered to be “spayed” while males are said to be “neutered.” The end result is the same, though – no sexual reproduction can take place.
What are the advantages of spaying/neutering?
In males, a number of undesirable behavioral changes start to take place around 8-9 months of age, and sometimes sooner than that. He will become territorial and start to “mark” areas by spraying very strong-smelling urine on vertical objects. If allowed outside, he will stray farther and farther away from home, looking for females. This instinct is so strong that he will be oblivious to the busy road between him and a potential mate, and will get into fights with other male cats. He will almost certainly come home with bite wound abscesses (draining, open sores), which will cost you when you have to have the abscess drained and treated by a veterinarian. Also, if he continues to follow this lifestyle, eventually he will probably become infected with feline leukemia (FeLV) or feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) – the equivalents of human leukemia and HIV. To learn more about these diseases, see The Cat Practice’s Guide To: Feline Leukemia and FIV. If neutered, the tom cat will lose the desire to roam the neighborhood looking for females. This will decrease his chances of being hit by a car or infected with FeLV or FIV. Also, he will be less inclined to mark his territory, and his urine will lose the characteristic strong “tom cat” smell. For those men who think neutering a male cat is inhumane, keep in mind that cats have no concept of sexual identity or ego. Neutering will not change his personality (except in a good way), and he will not suffer any kind of emotional reaction or identity crisis after neutering.
In females, the first heat cycles start at around 5-6 months of age (and sometimes sooner). You will notice her becoming very affectionate and will roll around on the floor (and probably sticking her rear end up in the air as high as she can). She will become more vocal and will probably start howling in the middle of the night. She may also exhibit clear vaginal discharge. Females will go into heat for about a week at a time every two to three weeks until she is mated. This behavior and the pheromones she is releasing will attract males from miles around, which will be prowling around your house, hoping for a chance with your sweet little girl (and she would be only too happy to oblige). Unspayed females also run the risk of being much more likely to develop uterine or mammary cancer later in life. A female should be spayed before her first heat cycle to reduce these risks (and save your sanity). Female cats can be spayed during a heat cycle, but the veterinarian should be aware of this, since there can be an increase in bleeding since the blood vessels are dilated.
When should I spay/neuter my cat?
Neutering can be done as soon as the testicles are fully descended into the scrotum. Usually the veterinarian will want him to reach a certain weight before anesthetizing him.
Spaying should be done at around 5 months of age – before the first heat cycle. Some clinics will spay cats very young, and there has been some controversy on whether it causes incontinence to be spayed as a tiny kitten. We prefer to wait until she is about 5 months old.
What is involved in the spaying/neutering procedure?
All cats should be fasted for 12 hours prior to surgery. This means all food should be withheld, although water can still be offered.
Neutering is done under general anesthesia. The scrotum area is then clipped free of hair and is surgically scrubbed. The testes are removed through two small incisions made in the scrotal sac. The blood vessels are then tied off and the incisions are closed using surgical glue. Usually, no sutures are used unless the cat is very large and the incisions are too big to be closed with surgical glue. It is a very short procedure and the cat is sent home the very same day. Usually, the cat will not act like he had undergone anesthesia at all and will be bouncing around the house like normal the same night.
Spaying is also done under general anesthesia. The abdomen is clipped free of hair and is surgically scrubbed. A small incision is made along the midline where there are fewer blood vessels. A special surgical tool is used to locate the uterus and uterine horns (where the ovaries are located). The blood vessels are tied off and the uterus and uterine horns are completely removed. The inner body wall is sutured with absorbable suture material and then the outside skin layer is closed. There is no need to come back for suture removal since they will absorb on their own, unless your doctor informs you otherwise.
Are their any complications associated with the procedures or recovery?
As with any general anesthesia, there are always risks. However, we take every precaution to minimize these risks. A doctor will perform a full physical examination including listening to the heart for any abnormalities. A preanesthetic blood profile will be run on your cat before any surgical procedure – this will ensure all the organ systems are in good working order before undergoing anesthesia. Also, we use electronic monitors as well as manual monitoring to make sure everything goes smoothly during the procedure.
Especially with spaying (which is more invasive than neutering), postoperative care is important. She will be able to go home the same day but there are some specific precautions to take at home to facilitate an uneventful recovery. Females should be confined to a small comfortable room for the first night where she won’t be able to run around vigorously. Ideally, activity level should be kept to a minimum for 3 – 4 days, if possible. If left to run and jump around the house, the internal sutures will start to rub on the tissue, and a fluid-filled pocket (called a seroma), will form under the incision site. These are not usually painful to the cat and will need to be allowed to go away on its own.
As with any incision, it should be monitored daily. Watch the spay or neuter incisions for any swelling, redness, heat, excessive pain, or discharge during the healing process. If your cat is constantly licking the site, they may introduce bacteria into the incision and cause an infection. Your cat may need to be fitted with a special collar to discourage licking. If you notice any of these signs, call your veterinary hospital for instructions.
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
It's amazing how fucking ignorant some people can be. Seriously - WTF? *:shakehead2:
I'm sorry, but I'm STILL having trouble believing that you're actually serious, CK... are you REALLY sure you're not just stirring?Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.
So mice and kittens don't have brains.That's just great :shakehead2: ..I think that scientific evidence will prove you otherwise....They can feel just as you or I could when we were babies. I am sorry, but this statement is very, very ignorant and seemingly uneducated. Come on...It's common sense. There is also a difference between feeding mice to snakes. Though they do have brains, they are being consumed by something, thus fulfilling their role in terms of the food chain. Outright killing a kitten for no other reason than you can't care for it is crazy. If you aren't going to neuter/spay your pets, at least take the ones you cannot care for to an animal shelter. They do have shelters in France, don't they?Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
My dad killed them right after they were born. I was 7 or 8. Animals have brains but when they're newborn they're deaf, blind and dumb. They feel only the instinct to feed really.
Heh, when I was a kid a had this friend who had a female cat, that every time she got in heat, she would of just start backing up on anything, sort of like masterbeting, even shoes :rolllaugh: , but she never looked hurt :PQuote:
Originally posted by Burns
Nope, not true. *
Yes, they sound like they're in pain, but the rolling and yowling is only to attract males. They also release a pheromone that attracts males from miles around. If you've ever heard a cat in heat, I'm not surprised you'd think someone was killing it, but being in season is not painful at all.
I've been trying to enlighten you throughout this whole goddamn thread, but you just don't listen. I'm done trying to educate you.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.
does thought detract or add to physical pain and suffering? of course not. nerve endings are nerve endings.
if it is a quick, split second death, well, there could be the argument that the combined pain of a litter of unwanted kittens being killed in 3 seconds combined is less than the pain of spaying or neutering (depending on how its done) the would be parents.
but as i've grown up around farms i know how they typically work, especially in regards to animals.
"hit it with a shovel ma....oops, hyuk hyuk....i only broke its back legs....better hit it again...." or, "the dog will take care of them...."
:thanks: Well said.Quote:
Originally posted by wombing
does thought detract or add to physical pain and suffering? of course not. nerve endings are nerve endings.
*just because animals do not think in a verbo-intellectual capacity does not suggest they feel no pain. if anything, it means they feel pain all the more intensely, as there is no thought process to justify it, or hope that it will end. only the pain coursing through their neural pathways.
*and if you were blind and deaf it would likely only intensify the sensation of pain. the key word being SENSATION, not 'thought process"
* :shakehead2:
Maybe it's hopeless or wrong to actively seek to justify this. It's just I was raised to this procedure and it's been done for centuries and centuries by farmers and other folks. I was just exposed to this at a very young age, and I agree with spaying/neutering in most situations of course. I really want to actively learn about this, you misinterpret me.
If you honestly think I am a hopeless case, whatever, I'll drop the issue and pick it up when I feel I can humanely tackle it.
Sorry for my frustration - maybe you genuinely what to learn the truth. Wombing explained it very well - better than I could, actually.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Maybe it's hopeless or wrong to actively seek to justify this. It's just I was raised to this procedure and it's been done for centuries and centuries by farmers and other folks. I was just exposed to this at a very young age, and I agree with spaying/neutering in most situations of course. I really want to actively learn about this, you misinterpret me. *
If you honestly think I am a hopeless case, whatever, I'll drop the issue and pick it up when I feel I can humanely tackle it.
I'm also sorry you were raised to think that killing innocent animals is okay. Just because people have been doing it for centuries, doesn't make it right. I'm all for listening to and trusting your parents, but they make mistakes, too. You have to question things that you think may not be right - don't just take everything people tell you for granted. For example, my mom doesn't like to eat seafood and thinks it's gross and disgusting, but that didn't stop me from eating all the shrimp I could get my hands on. :wink:
So you're sad that your cat died...but everytime you have a litter of kittens you KILL half of them. Girl, seriously. Don't have anymore kittens. There are enough deaths each day without you contributing to it.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I agree once you no longer plan on breeding neutering/spaying is neccessary. Cleo got killed by a dog when her kittens were 4 weeks old so I raised them on the bottle. Cute babies. She gave birth only to two, Leo and Bandit. Leo was killed by a car before he reached a year. Bandit is alive and healthy. We would have neutered Cleo but she was killed... and obviously it was no longer needed to prevent her from reproducing. *:cry: *
Cookie had a litter of 7. We had to kill a few at birth and all the rest found happy homes. Trust me, I was heartbroken and young when this happened but I knew that it had to happen. My dad grew up on a farm where the same procedure has been done for ages. We neutered cookie after because any ammount of kittens would be too many. *
And we plan on having a litter now with a new female and then having her neutered.
Oh. My. God. No offense, but will you ever get it? They can feel perfectly fine! They have brains! How do you think they function? And there IS no concept that you have. All of that is absolute B.S. :shakehead2:Quote:
Originally posted by Sortilegio+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sortilegio)</div>Dude. You're my hero. Someone else finally gets it.Quote:
It is simply moraly contradictory to have a pet that you won't neuter, to let them go around having more so you can kill them because you find neutering wrong :wtf2: ; If you wan't your cat but don't wan't the babies then just neuter the damn cat, what is wrong with you, its like saying you love screwing but hate using condoms cause its unatural, so when the baby comes you simply kill it *:? .
On the declawing thing, I find it kind of bad, why won't the owners simply cut their cats claws every now and then, are they to lazy *:|[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
I feed newborn mice to my snakes. They don't feel anything. They're brainless. Same concept with kittens.
.
Again, I've already touched on this. You're quite wrong about being unable to feel. Natural selection would never have favoured that (they'd have little chance of survival). Some perceptual abilites are most certainly functional at birth, including touch.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>I already explained the nervous system is developed prior to birth--it absolutely has to be. You apparently didn't read my post...regardless, they feel. If you don't believe me, take a couple University-level biology courses.Quote:
Are you saying a newborn animal can think or feel anything? If so, please enlighten me.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
My dad killed them right after they were born. I was 7 or 8. Animals have brains but when they're newborn they're deaf, blind and dumb. They feel only the instinct to feed really.
Oh I agree with you entirely - sterilisation is a much more effective way of controlling a population, not only do you have the wasted reproductive effort, but you have steady competition for resources. For small, concentrated populations it is quite viable, but it becomes totally impractical in the areas that they are doing the most damage in. Feral cats are not just a problem in small wildlife parks close to cities, they're a problem across millions of acres of unpopulated, isolated outback. Yeah, maybe a tagging and sterilisation programme would be possible with millions of dollars of funding, but unfortunately those millions of dollars are non-existent. While it would be nice to refuse to do it on moral grounds, I think that if people are willing to accept the death of animals to give them a nice juicy steak on their plate, then the death of animals to prevent the excintion of species and irreprable damage to the environment shouldn't be much of a problem.Quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Meanie
In fact, it would actually be BETTER if they fixed the cats and release them, than if they just caughts and killed them. Here's why:
If you catch and kill the cats, then that means that every cat still in the wild can still breed. Therefore, every time any of the cats mate, there's the normal chance that they are going to have babies. IE, a high chance.
I completely disagree on many levels, it's just that to be honest I've never questioned that particular thing. Farmers and other people I know (though few) have done the same.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
Sorry for my frustration - maybe you genuinely what to learn the truth. Wombing explained it very well - better than I could, actually.
I'm also sorry you were raised to think that killing innocent animals is okay. Just because people have been doing it for centuries, doesn't make it right. I'm all for listening to and trusting your parents, but they make mistakes, too. You have to question things that you think may not be right - don't just take everything people tell you for granted. For example, my mom doesn't like to eat seafood and thinks it's gross and disgusting, but that didn't stop me from eating all the shrimp I could get my hands on. *:wink:
For the last time, I DID NOT KILL THEM. IT WAS MY PARENTS. NOT ME. Now other people are being dense.
Okay, I believe you guys and I've heard enough to recognise that I was wrong. If animals, though newborn can feel enough to experience this, then I was wrong. I guess obviously they don't understand pain on the same level as a matured animal or a human (duh).
I generally do want to learn. I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me. :eek:
Well, I don't think anyone agreed with you about killing kittens just because you didn't want to spay your cat. And when you did post about incorrect things, I didn't hesitate to correct you. It only seemed like we were trying to bash things into your head, because even when we tried to explain it, you'd make another assinine post about kittens being brainless! But now that you understand that even baby animals can experience pain, maybe you will try to educate the people you know who are doing it.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chainsaw Kitten)</div>I don't think anywhere in my last post did I say you were the one killing them - but you didn't think there was anything wrong with it, either. I did say that just because you're parents do it, doesn't make it right. And just because it's been done by farmers for centuries doesn't make it right. You have to question things that other people do, if you feel they aren't right - you can't just accept that it's right just because other people do it. Get it?Quote:
For the last time, I DID NOT KILL THEM. IT WAS MY PARENTS. NOT ME. Now other people are being dense.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Chainsaw Kitten
I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me.
No. I do neuter and spay my cats (when we don't have kittens) because I know it's neccessary. I just think the concept of removing reproductive organs horrible.
Burns, I don't mean you. I meant.. various other people who have been saying that I killed the kittens. I did not want to do so.
For fucks sake, it happened once (when my dad killed the kittens). Either read things through and comment or don't comment at all.Quote:
Originally posted by Courtney
So you're sad that your cat died...but everytime you have a litter of kittens you KILL half of them. *Girl, seriously. Don't have anymore kittens. *There are enough deaths each day without you contributing to it.
You're a kid :roll: , be serious if you want to learn.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
I generally do want to learn. I argue with these things not to impose my beliefs onto you guys (though some of you seem to want to bash things into my head) but merely to post and be corrected. Also, sometimes people agree with me. *:eek:
Be more specific. Insults don't help.
Instead of making my cats impotent so they can't get pregant or pregnate by cutting their genitals off, I just cut off 3 of their legs. It's cheaper, and they are sure not to make babies.
Moral of the story: Animal cruelty is a bitch, but at least it's not super-aids.
http://www.forum-tvs.ru/style_emotic...ault/crazy.gifQuote:
Originally posted by Neruo
Instead of making my cats impotent so they can't get pregant or pregnate by cutting their genitals off, I just cut off 3 of their legs. It's cheaper, and they are sure not to make babies.
Moral of the story: *Animal cruelty is a bitch, but at least it's not super-aids.
Well now you're just being disrespectful. I'm sorry, but I'll comment if I want to comment. That's what a thread's for. If you didn't want comments why'd you start one? And I find it a little suspicious that 5 pages into the thread you're all the sudden "Oh! I never killed kittens! It was my daddy all along! I would never do that!" When for the past four pages you've been arguing with us about whether or not animals can even feel, and telling us that killing innocent babies is perfectly humane.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
For fucks sake, it happened once (when my dad killed the kittens). Either read things through and comment or don't comment at all.
Honestly, just give up, babe. There's no possible way you can make yourself look good now after all you've said. :wink:
Threads are for comments, yes, so I will comment back and whether it's "disrespectful" is down to choice of interpretation.
I will no longer argue with you about your.. misunderstanding of what I said. And I am not blaming my father but truely stating that he did teach me so and he did with this one litter do so. And if you want me to lie and confess to being a kitten murderer then you're a bit screwy.
I am not trying to look good in any way. The fact that I said that this is the way it's been done itself already can be seen as something that does not "look good" from other people's views. So if I did not want to look bad I would just not say anything at all, ever.
I guess ease up on Chainsaw a little?
You'd be surprised what all we learn to accept when we're young because our parents did it, and told us it was ok. I believed pretty much everything my parents told me until I was a teenager, when I started to question things. At least Chainsaw admits there might have been a flaw in her father's doings, and she's trying to learn about it in this thread, and she's remained quite cool and collective, even when a few of you have been throwing accusations at her left and right, sometimes to the point of being plain rude and insulting.
So maybe be a little more educational here folks, and a little less judgemental. Thanks :wink:
Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
They're newborn and don't even feel anything.
All animals feel things, whether newborn or not. for you to say they don't is an insult. and not to mention cruel and sadistic. killing newborn kittens? i can't think of anything that is more cold-hearted.
pardon me but I don't think it was intended to be an insult...please stop causing trouble here, this is for legitimate discussion about the moral implications of declawing/fixing cats, not mud-slinging :roll:Quote:
Originally posted by Ravyn
All animals feel things, whether newborn or not. for you to say they don't is an insult.
Weird choice for a first post. you a lurker that couldn't help to say that? :|
Heh...this discussion reminded me of one of my favorite shirts:
http://theworstpageintheuniverse.com...ressive_bs.jpg
GO REGRESSIVE!
Maddox!
I was just lecturing people on the phpBB chat on the glory of Maddox and his verbal deconstruction of PETA.
Ok, well I took the time to read this whole thread.
Interesting opinions I must say.
Well, I guess ill post mine now :P.
Ok here it go's. Unless you are breeding in a proper fashion, in MY opinion cats and dogs should be spayed or neutered. I may be wrong in saying this, but firstly. I do not think the average owner has the personal right, not to spay or neuter their animal. Why you may ask? Because from my observation and experience a vast majority of the cats and dogs that have been sent to the SPCA are animals that could not have been given away or sold in a suitable amount of time. Or animals that have been abandoned or given away for other personal reasons. Secondly, when you dont spay or neuter your animals, heres what might happen. The first generation of animals are born unspayed/uneutered, they live their lives fine, make alot of little babies, what a nice life. Now this generation of animals arent spayed and neutered either, while the first generation of cats are STILL alive and young, the second generation are having babies too. This endless cycle go's on and on, and pretty soon, there would just be way to many animals, and not enough people that want animals. Hense, they are all captured, attempted to sell, and since everyone already has a cat or dog, or maybe both, they arent going to want another. Poor little kitty gets put down along with all its brothers and sisters.
You see?
As for declawing, im not saying its right. But if its absolutely nessicary, and if the cat were just to be put down otherwise? Then id say declaw it.
I understand the point. Declawing is the most severe and painful of the operations that one can do to a cat, and it does marginalize their prowless.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure.
However...
If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted.
some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat.
Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing.
so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that?
I disagree. (Oh, boy, if I had a dollar for every time I said THAT...)Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted.
some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat.
Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing.
so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that?
Owners who declaw their cats or "adopt" declawed cats are able to do so because declawing is an option.
WERE declawing illegal and not practiced, I do not think that you can say that those same owners, who would normally "opt" for declawed cats, would not still "adopt" cats even though not declawed. In my opinion, many would choose to adopt cats anyway. (This is, of course, mere speculation but I believe it to be right...)
So, we have two possible mentalities:
1) "I want a cat, but only if it's declawed, and I will not get a cat at all unless it's declawed."
2) "I want a cat and am getting one, and am going to have it declawed if possible".
If we take mentality number 2 as the norm, as I believe it is, then making declawing illegal WOULD be an effective measure.
I think Leo's logical approach to the problem we're considering is actually quite valid, especially considering pets are often adopted into homes by families whose members share dissenting views (i.e. kids want a cat, mom doesn't want the house shred to ruins... no declawing option, then it's a hamster the kids get instead).
And I\'d like to add that it\'s too bad he can\'t write all his posts in the way he has here, without aggressively denouncing other people\'s beliefs, opinions, or otherwise saying really nasty, horrible things.
i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. besides, maybe if you keep up the practice of killing half of each litter, the litter sizes will eventually decrease offering a viable solution to the problem of kitten over-population. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia.
I also agree with Leo's post. There would be many more adoptable cats euthanized if declawing were made illegal. Many declawed cats live excellent lives. If the declawing procedure is done correctly, and pain management is used, the discomfort from the surgery far outweighs the alternative (which is to not be adopted and possibly euthanized).Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
I understand the point. Declawing is the most severe and painful of the operations that one can do to a cat, and it does marginalize their prowless.
However...
If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted.
some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat.
Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing.
so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that?
Also, if declawing were made illegal, I have a feeling people would want it done anyway. Some dishonest surgeons may still do the procedure illegally, and probably not correctly and with no pain management in place.
Switzerland is a utopia for cats. Well, Switzerland may be a bad example as it is a utopia for practically... anything and anyone.Quote:
Originally posted by Burns
I also agree with Leo's post. There would be many more adoptable cats euthanized if declawing were made illegal. Many declawed cats live excellent lives. If the declawing procedure is done correctly, and pain management is used, the discomfort from the surgery far outweighs the alternative (which is to not be adopted and possibly euthanized).
Also, if declawing were made illegal, I have a feeling people would want it done anyway. Some dishonest surgeons may still do the procedure illegally, and probably not correctly and with no pain management in place.
And Burns has a valid point. It's just like with abortions. If you ban them, people start getting back alley abortions a lot more often. People always seek to get what they want if the desire is strong; even if it requires seeing heads roll.
However we induced declawing cats onto this world, and now we have to take action to in the end come up with the wanted results. You don't just keep something going even though it's a horrible practice just because if you wanted to change it it would need major sacrifices. Many many changes need sacrifices. In an ideal world, nobody would ever (generalisation) use the method of killing kittens, spaying & neutering or declawing them. It just wouldn't be a neccessity. However we fucked up the environment.
And one always strives to correct things, right? Life is shit and sugar, but you use the pooper scooper and the bag of the sweet stuff as much as possible. And to have the sugar you may need to shovel some shit down.
And Leo and Burns do have very valid points indeed. However so does Meanie. It's difficult to weigh out all the options and try and predict the results. It's probably one of the most difficult things possible in life. However we still do it. If you have the 5% chance to escape and the 95% of being excecuted, which do you pick? (Quote by the head of the libertarian party in America.)
I think I am not going to draw an ultimate conclusion on my part just yet. I'm just mulling over everything first. I will post once I take everything in and try to come up with something that actively fits my philosophy.
Incredible. Someone considers alternate possibilities or motives behind it. Not saying that all of you haven't, but this is quite a relief. I'm also not saying that my theory is perfectly correct in the least but he took the different aspects into account.Quote:
i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. besides, maybe if you keep up the practice of killing half of each litter, the litter sizes will eventually decrease offering a viable solution to the problem of kitten over-population. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia. [/b]
Just to note: Killing half of the kittens will NOT gradually decrease litter size. The cat HAVING the babies will have no survival benefit for having less babies, only the babies will recieve said benefit. And since the babies have no genetic influence on the number of kittens in their own litter, no evolutionary reaction will take place.
Now, if you killed all cats AND all their offspring, or had them fixed, if they had a litter above a certain size, THEN the litter size would decrease. But that's a tad bit on the impractical and unenforceable side.
yeah...i wasn't being entirely serious. i guess i'm going to have to start using smileys although i feel like they detract from the seriousness of the entire post--what is one to do if only half of the post is serious??Quote:
Originally posted by Tsen
Just to note: Killing half of the kittens will NOT gradually decrease litter size. The cat HAVING the babies will have no survival benefit for having less babies, only the babies will recieve said benefit. And since the babies have no genetic influence on the number of kittens in their own litter, no evolutionary reaction will take place.
Heh, sorry about that misunderstanding. I was just going off the quote, not your original post, so I assumed you were being serious...Well, I'll pay more attention next time.
Well it seemed you weren't joking about everything to me. I didn't agree with that point, I just thought it was good for you to have taken a different perspective and look other things over.
in order to minimize confusion i will submit an edited post with only serious thoughts:
i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia.
Good point.Quote:
Originally posted by mongreloctopus
in order to minimize confusion i will submit an edited post with only serious thoughts:
i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia.
------------
Now for something completely different:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5167/sigck4ec.jpg
lol. ^___^ <3
Now stop caring and get a life people.
And a car.
To run over kittens.
Yay for running down kittens!
Helicopters and rifles (none of those weak tranqs, though, I'm talking the real thing) are fair play, right?
LOL about that picture, and LMFAO that Chainsaw Kitten used it for a siggie!
LOL at Chainsaw Kitten's signature! :lol:
Way to take all the criticism in stride (and I was one of the worst ones)! I'm impressed. :goodjob2:
I just think it's funny. :oops:
I think here I need to explain exactly what I mean by "newborns not being able to feel pain." This was too blunt and not specific enough, and now that I read it I can see myself arguing against myself. :lol:
What I mean by this is that at such a young age animals have developed no real personality quirks. They feel sensations. Here wombing is exactly right. But sensations are made more extreme by the understanding of them. For example, a girl breaks her wrist. It hurts yes, and this makes her cry. Yet she also understands that she will not be able to write or play baseball in the upcoming tryouts. These all are very relevant.
Correct me if I am wrong, but a human baby would not have anything near this simplistic understanding. If a baby gets a cut, the baby will not understand that it is bad because it will sting whenever she gets salty food on the wound. So therefore it hurts, but there is no specific understanding.
The newborn kitten understands even less than the baby. If we're talking about humane killing, the cat feels nothing in the sense that it may feel a sensation, but it's almost immediately over. I guess that could be considered humane.
Now what most people here are imposing are morals.
This process is not less legal than euthanization in shelters. And personally, I'd rather kill kittens at newborn age when they have no real personality traits yet than give them to a shelter when they're weened and they have developed or are developing this personality. That's even more cruel. They are very likely to be killed then.
There are special situations in which this must be done. There are special situations in which special tactics must be used. For example, Cookie, who had the litter of which we killed a few, was adopted. We took her in from the streets. She was a lovely cat. We didn't know her age and were planning on fixing her. However she disappeared for three weeks and came back pregnant. Why did we not fix her before? We did not know her exact age and didn't want to risk fixing her early. We told the vet about her and he agreed. The kittens were killed humanely.
After that we had one litter of which we kept all of the kittens. We're planning on having another litter sometime when we're ready for it. Just some lovely European Shorthairs, simple farm cats, that we can raise.
I should have explained all of these things in more detail, but I was in a hurry whenever I wrote the posts at the beginning of the thread.
It is difficult to work in a shelter environment and have to see perfectly friendly adult animals euthanized. It's heartbreaking when you get attached to an animal with a strong personality, only to have it euthanized. (Before getting my degree, I worked at the Michigan Humane Society, and we had to euthanize several animals per day - even seemingly healthy, friendly animals. Needless to say, I only worked there for about 6 months before I couldn't take it anymore - but I did take a 10 week old kitten with me when I left :wink: )Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
And personally, I'd rather kill kittens at newborn age when they have no real personality traits yet than give them to a shelter when they're weened and they have developed or are developing this personality. That's even more cruel. They are very likely to be killed then.
But I wouldn't say that it's any less sad having to euthanize a little baby for the same reasons. A life is a life - whether it's old or young. And the animal can still feel pain the same - whether it's old or young. It's a possibility that young animals may not have the learned fear behind the pain sensation, but that has nothing to do with the intensity of the pain. Animals flip out more because of the fear response than the pain response - and I don't think anyone can argue with me on this point since I draw blood on cats every day and experience this every single day. Fear and pain are two different things.