No Sympathy for Suicide

Today, I found out that this guy that goes to my school killed himself last night. I really don't give a rats ass, and feel nothing for the guy. Some people might think that's cruel. But come on, your not really that bad off until you're dead.

What are your thoughts on suicide? Personally I think that people who kill themselves aren't victims of anything, so I don't really feel sorry for them. I DO NOT condemn them for it, but they knew what they were doing before hand.

What are your ideas/opinions?

I both agree and disagree with you on this one. (Had ta leave the poll blank. :wink:)

On one hand, NOBODY should feel that suicide is a way out of anything. It's not. I don't condone it in any way and I think it to be the most self-centered approach to solving a problem that one can take; pushing aside whatever greivance you'd bring family and friends for the egotistical indulgence of "solving your problem." I think it's ignorant, misguided, unecessary and, in the cases of many spoiled, overprivileged (sp) Western youths, just plain pathetic.

HOWEVER, you have to realize that many people are driven to see this as their only alternative, which is a tragedy all in itself. Behind many suicides are deep, often well-hidden problems that may have silently tormented the "victim" for ages. Sure, with our rational minds we might have thought to seek help, or any Other alternative to suicide, but some people, obviously, just don't have that sort of rational wiring, especially when something's pushed them to that threshold where they start wondering if life is really worth it.

A main reason we feel we can ridicule something like suicide is because, when faced with even the most traumatic situations, you and/or I wouldn't even think of suicide as an option. We percieve life that way because of the experiences we've had and an established philosophy that suicide is a selfish, horrible act. Some people just haven't had the good fortune to realize this, or have been so consumed by problems they don't know how to get rid of that they are driven to suicide because they don't know any other way out.

So, while it's nothing to sympathize over because it's obviously, according to people like us, the wrong thing to do, I can't help but be sympathetic toward the fact that so many people don't develop psycho- or socialogically enough to escape that phase before they decide to take their life.

I agree with Bobby on this on, but also with Oneironaut.

I feel no sympathy whatsoever for these people in relation to their actual suicide. Death is the end. Life is existance. To throw life away 'cos you're to scared or lacking in will to face it, and deal with it, is not an act deserving of sympathy.

BUT I feel sympatheic toawrds these people in relation to the factors which have brought them to consider suicide as a way out. The shit that obviously has happened to them in order for them to contemplate suicide is deserving of sympathy. Provided, of course, their problems aren't ENTIRELY of their own making.[/i]

You know what bothers me the most about suicide?

After they kill themselves, there are memorials all over school, everyone's crying (well, alot of people) there are people saying how much of a great person she/he was, and how he/she never deserved to die.

You know what? Half of these people talking are the ones that made the person feel like shit to begin with, which contributed to the suicide.

I generally have sympathy for anyone who struggles with depression.

And while yes, suicide is like the ultimate in selfish behaviour, I wouldn't go so far as to harshly judge someone who committed suicide, until I am in their shoes. I would urge people to take a suicide as an opportunity to learn about that person's behaviour prior to their death, so you can look for signs of it in others.

So by all means...feel sympathy. Learn what that person was going through. Prevent it in the future.


edit: btw, this is an interesting topic, I think it would fit right in Extended Discussion

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Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I generally have sympathy for anyone who struggles with depression.

And while yes, suicide is like the ultimate in selfish behaviour, I wouldn't go so far as to harshly judge someone who committed suicide, until I am in their shoes. I would urge people to take a suicide as an opportunity to learn about that person's behaviour prior to their death, so you can look for signs of it in others.

So by all means...feel sympathy. Learn what that person was going through. Prevent it in the future.


edit: btw, this is an interesting topic, I think it would fit right in Extended Discussion

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I was going to say something similar to this. No one can really know or understand what it's like to be suicidal until you've been in those shoes. They aren't fun shoes to be in.

A close friend of mine (Susan) who I also worked with for about 2 years, committed suicide about 4 months ago.

She had a 2 year old son. In my opinion, her suicide was a SELFISH ACT.

How in the hell can you have a little child that depends on you and kill yourself? The boy's father and Susan weren't together, but they shared custody of him. She was around my age (around 25). She came from a wealthy family who never let her go without anything. So even though she wasn't one of those people living on the street that committed suicide, she still (obviously) felt that there was no alternative.

I just don't get it. It was quite a shock to everyone. Her younger sister found her hanging in a closet.

Can you imagine finding your brother or sister dead, hanging inside a closet?? Can you imagine trying to tell a 2 year old that his mommy is dead and never coming back?? That was extremely selfish, in my opinion, to make her family deal with that.

Some people have sicknesses that most will never understand...including themselves.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
Today, I found out that this guy that goes to my school killed himself last night. I really don't give a rats ass, and feel nothing for the guy. Some people might think that's cruel. But come on, your not really that bad off until you're dead.

What are your thoughts on suicide? Personally I think that people who kill themselves aren't victims of anything, so I don't really feel sorry for them. I DO NOT condemn them for it, but they knew what they were doing before hand.

What are your ideas/opinions?

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Yes, since it is none of your business, and you don't seem to be much of an empathic soul, one can understand that you would be unruffled by almost any event that did not directly concern yourself.

However, as to the impact of a Suicide on society, it is rather immense. No man is an island. Even fairly isolated people still have parents, brothers, sisters. And of course these people -- these relatives -- are seriously impacted by a suicide in their family.

But for people who have forged ties to their communities and reached out in friendship and employment, then a suicide tears at the organic fiber of society.

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Originally posted by Aquanina
Some people have sicknesses that most will never understand...including themselves.

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I wish I understood. My family has a predisposition for suicide. Four so far, cousins, aunts, uncles.... I wonder what I would do if life became unbearable.

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Originally posted by wombing
this seems to be the last *area one should generalize.

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yup

I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

yah i agree with wombing too....

also umm most of us live because its better then death...for some people its the other way around. and i think ppl generally want whats best for them...

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Originally posted by ~~o/~~~~~/~~~~shark!


also umm most of us live because its better then death...for some people its the other way around. and i think ppl generally want whats best for them...

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Ohhh... deep.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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Actually, suicide motivated by despair can be quite reasonable. Have you ever heard of a "fate worse than death"? Suppose a person who is about to suffer from a ravaging and very painful disease, or a person who is about to be thoroughly disgraced and humiliated. In the face of these terrible and unbearable possibilities, the choice of a painless death might be by far the rational choice.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
Actually, suicide motivated by despair can be quite reasonable. *Have you ever heard of a "fate worse than death"? *Suppose a person who is about to suffer from a ravaging and very painful disease, or a person who is about to be thoroughly disgraced and humiliated. *In the face of these terrible and unbearable possibilities, the choice of a painless death might be by far the rational choice.

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I think it's possible to reason rationally up to the point of death. But to actually committ the act goes against virtually every instinct that all animals have evolved.

The instinct to survive is stronger than any other.

In my opinion, suicide is the most selfish act someone can commit. Sorry it's short, but that's pretty much my only opinion on it.
I spose if someone has cancer and knows they have only a short amount of time in their life left, and they have a lot of pain from it, then there maybe an excuse then.

keep in mind too folks, a 'single cause theory' doesn't usually apply

plenty of people are super selffish...so why don't they all commit suicide?

plenty of people are really depressed...some are still living

several people were abused, in despair, dying of incurable diseases...etc etc

there are several factors that go into that downward spiral that leads to pulling that trigger, where yes, a line is crossed that one can hardly call sane or rational, as brady pointed out

my folks are shrinks, and my step-dad worked with several suicidal adolescents, where he pointed out that in almost every case, the patient goes into an almost hypnotic, trance-like state just prior to attempting (or succeeding)

unless we are studying the subject carefully, and have a degree in psychology, it's very difficult to pin point the reasons or causes that lead to someone killing him or herself, and extreme opinions on the matter would probably make the person worse, say for example, if your best friend told you he was going to kill himself, and you say "GOD that is the most selfish act you could possibly do! You are not a victim, you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you need attention etc etc," it would be a fairly ignorant step, and possibly drive the person more towards the suicide than away. Sympathy is very important in a situation like this. I don't mean placate the person in a condescending or overly "poor baby" kind of way....

You know, I'll ask my folks. I'm sure there is a protocol for this type of thing. Might be useful information to have in case any of us run into a person like this.

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Originally posted by bradybaker

I think it's possible to reason rationally up to the point of death. But to actually committ the act goes against virtually every instinct that all animals have evolved.

The instinct to survive is stronger than any other.

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You were talking about sanity and reason. Now you are only talking about animal instinct.

My father had suffered from cancer. He submitted to treatment and fought it for a year and eventually won through to a remission. The remission lasted several years, and then the cancer came back with a vengence. The doctors told him that the pain would be overwhelming, that death would be slow but certain, and that the hospitalization would likely wipe out the family estate... the family would have to sell the house, and all that would be gained was an extra month of life.

So my father determined that Animal Instinct was a silly thing and easy enough to ignore. Then he went into the garage with a rope and hung himself, leaving a note to warn my mother not to enter but rather to call the police.

Pain was escaped, and the Estate was left intact.

Years later, my mother was informed that she had inoperable cancer. The pain would be unbearable and beyond reach of any drug to ameliorate it. And the hospital expences would wipe out the estate in order to simply gain an extra month of life. So my mother signed a DNR (do not resusitate) Order and then probably took a fist full of laxatives, while allowing the hospital staff to suppose she had experienced a nasty side effect from the chemotherapy. She died of dehydration.

Had my parents been animals, intent upon respecting instinct, the doctors would have been far richer and somebody else now would be living in the family estate.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with ya there, brady. If the bad in the world outweighs the good, suicide is the only rational choice. In fact, it's irrational to go about living in denial, hoping that one day the demons in your brain will just up and leave. They won't, not without medical help or a drastic change in life condition.

That being said, I still think suicide isn't a good choice. It's basically like saying "my unhappiness trumps my fucking up everyone who cared about me." It's just a dick move.

On the other hand, I think it's bullshit to try to understand suicide if you've never seriously considered it yourself. I don't talk about it with most people I know in RL, but thoughts of suicide have come on and off throughout my whole life. Not that I would ever go through with it, for the above reason. I think at the very center of the concept is the mentality of saying "F**K YOU" to anyone who wants you stay alive despite your misery. I personally think keeping a suicidal person alive against his will is the ultimate form of torture. Don't you see, a true suicidal doesn't care about breaking hearts or what the future holds for him, he only wants to die. Just, die. Death is one thing that everyone deserves, especially if they want it, for christ's sake! Why is everyone so afraid of death? especially to the point where they rain on the parades of people who aren't!

Anyway in summary, it's cruel to critisize a suicide for wanting to die, and it's pointless to let his death get you down. Most (there are exceptions of course, like emo SOB's) people who kill themselves aren't trying to get you down, they're just trying to get out of this nightmare called life. Give them a freaking a break, but don't feel obligated to soak them with insincere tears, either.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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Very well said. I agree completely. By sicknesses I was referring to mental illness.

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Originally posted by Aquanina


Very well said. I agree completely. By sicknesses I was referring to mental illness.

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Odd.

What of Tactical Suicides? In many parts of the World there are people who make the patriotic decision to die for a Greater Cause. This certainly is no 'mental illness'. People can reasonably and rationally evaluate the hopes and the potentials of Life as they know it and determine that the most they can make of their Life is to give it for the sake of their Community. To say that such people are 'mentally ill' is to rob them of the respect they deserve, from the very community they have given their lives to serve.

Indeed, there is the fact that life becomes unbearable sometimes. But again, if you have consiousness, energy, and the knowledge of what is wrong with your life, then why do you not fight against that untill the very end?

I understand ending one's life because of unbearable pain, or suffering, these people are terminally ill anyway. They're not so selfish, and yet, at the same time, they are. Really there's no way to pass judgement on someone's decision, because no one will ever know the precise circumstances for the act.

I think I may have been a little unclear.

I don't have sympathy for the person. I didn't say it was wrong to do. There are situations where it would, in fact, be ideal. I'm just saying that I think that if you do choose that route, you are choosing the path of the most arrogant, self important person that you can. Woe is me, my life is so unbearable! Who's to say, for example, that anyone's life will not reach thier level of 'agony' and that person come out just fine?

You are only dead, when you are dead. Think you're important? Give about 2 generations of time, and no one will remember your name. You're only as important as the people around you, who DO care about you, including yourself. So ultimately, if you don't care about you enough to keep from killing yourself, I don't give a fuck who you are, you're just dust to me.

So yeah, some people have it better than others. That'll always be the way it is, no matter what the magnitude. Big fucking deal. No one promised you anything when you were born, so why is it that people ASSUME that they will be treated a certain way? Dignity, fairness, all thoughts of comparison are human ideas developed because we take everything so fucking personally. You have to be selfish to survive, and at the same time, you have to realize that other people are selfish, so that you can say "Screw you." to the people you don't like, and indulge the people that you do like.

No one said you were going to be treated fairly. There's a reason that life is so chaotic. It's breif, and everyone will die in time. So whats the point in calling it quits, if you'll get there soon enough anyway?

And just incase you're wondering, I have contemplted it. Had a 38 special ready to roll. Know what made me not do it? I GAVE A SHIT ABOUT ME.

Thats the first step to other people giving a shit.

Ok first off, there are various reasons to why a person would kill themself; you are troubling on what would your sympathetic stance be, as not to the actual fact, wich is the suicide.
What I think people should look is for the actual suicide fact, because any action that caused it is the action on wich your priciple would face a sympathetic value.

What could those facts be on a case like this; the three most common forces around the act of killing one self are: social stress, manic depression(caused by social stress normaly), and idealistic stance.

When someone has dificult social problems, they tend to draw themselfs away from society, and become very defensive and evasive towards any social behaviour. Normaly people on with this problem don't get around enough with themselfs to solve their state, wich only leads them into getting more shut and eventualy depressed. When people eventually hit the depresion, full on with social problems that keep growing due to the fact the person hasn't been able to help himself out, they normally blame themselfs for all this, and end in several suicide attempts, with little chance they would actually succeed, being scared still, but facing the idea of death each day making it more and more probable next time they will succed by not being scared anymore. So if any sympathy needs to be gone around a case like this, it should be on the fact that society hasn't bring it self upwards to help this tipe of people who give you lots of times for you to help.

In other cases when people are dealing with manic depression, it is mostly caused by most of what I said above, but in a more prolonged timeline, wich carries a person to the limits in wich he can no longer deal with his self loathing, completely separetad of social life, and just decides to end it. Again, this people are really easy to be aware off, enough to try and help, encourging them into society, life, but if this person is too depressed then its just better to get profesional help for them in a way.

Now the Idealistic suicide, is very different from the above, its more of an comitment towards death and lifes achivements, sort of like Socrates, this is when people kill themselfs to prove a point, some may kill themselfs to prove they love someone like others may just do it to prove society wrong. In this cases your sympathy would derive more on where you stand with this persons ideals, and if there would of been some other way besides death, who was there to help him?, and those sort of things.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont



Odd.

What of Tactical Suicides? *In many parts of the World there are people who make the patriotic decision to die for a Greater Cause. *This certainly is no 'mental illness'. * People can reasonably and rationally evaluate the hopes and the potentials of Life as they know it and determine that the most they can make of their Life is to give it for the sake of their Community. *To say that such people are 'mentally ill' is to rob them of the respect they deserve, from the very community they have given their lives to serve.

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True. I wasn't referring to suicide bombing and such when talking about people who were mentally ill. I think that's a whole other subject entirely.

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Originally posted by Aquanina


True. I wasn't referring to suicide bombing and such when talking about people who were mentally ill. I think that's a whole other subject entirely.

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Yes, I only wanted to point out that some suicides are calculated and reasonable.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
You were talking about sanity and reason. * Now you are only talking about animal instinct.

My father had suffered from cancer. *He submitted to treatment and fought it for a year and eventually won through to a remission. *The remission lasted several years, and then the cancer came back with a vengence. * The doctors told him that the pain would be overwhelming, that death would be slow but certain, and that the hospitalization would likely wipe out the family estate... the family would have to sell the house, and all that would be gained was an extra month of life.

So my father determined that Animal Instinct was a silly thing and easy enough to ignore. *Then he went into the garage with a rope and hung himself, leaving a note to warn my mother not to enter but rather to call the police.

Pain was escaped, and the Estate was left intact. *

Years later, my mother was informed that she had inoperable cancer. *The pain would be unbearable and beyond reach of any drug to ameliorate it. *And the hospital expences would wipe out the estate in order to simply gain an extra month of life. * So my mother signed a DNR (do not resusitate) Order and then probably took a fist full of laxatives, while allowing the hospital staff to suppose she had experienced a nasty side effect from the chemotherapy. *She died of dehydration. *

Had my parents been animals, intent upon respecting instinct, the doctors would have been far richer and somebody else now would be living in the family estate.

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I'm not saying that reason is not and should not be used. But again your illustrating how it's being used before committing the act. I'm saying that reason alone is not enough to overcome the survival instinct at the moment of suicide.

Same goes for 'tactical suicides'.

I don't feel for the person who killed themself. I feel sorry for their family and friends. Suicide is INCREDIBLY selfish and stupid.

The concept of suicide is so crazy to me. I don't really feel sympathetic to those who would be selfish enough to actually do such a thing.....That person inflicts so much pain on those around you. At the same time, I feel very sympathetic to those with personal problems and want help. Anyone willing to help themselves, or get help deserves sympathy and compassion, but committing suicide is like denying all of that. I am sure that sometimes those people feel as though nothing could help, but if they took responsibility for their own actions in the first place, they wouldn't have been in that situation.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
The concept of suicide is so crazy to me. I don't really feel sympathetic to those who would be selfish enough to actually *do such a thing.....That person inflicts so much pain on those around you. At the same time, I feel very sympathetic to those with personal problems and want help. Anyone willing to help themselves, or get help deserves sympathy and compassion, but committing suicide is like denying all of that. I am sure that sometimes those people feel as though nothing could help, but if they took responsibility for their own actions in the first place, they wouldn't have been in that situation.

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Well, perhaps everybody is being a bit over critical of these people's decisions. People who are ordinarily not judgemental, are being very judgmental. Perhaps it is because these Suicides are not here to defend themselves.

But allow me to point out a few things. First, that everybody dies. It is not a question of these people renouncing Immortality. They are simply moving up an event that will transpire soon enough in any case. Secondly, these people may be expressing that they are unwilling to live beneath a certain standard. This indicates an admirable sense of discernment and taste. While the rest of us are drudge enough to join the ranks of forlorn mediocrity, we should have some level of respect for those who look at that prospect and say "no thank you" to such an expansive field of crap.

And then I can think of a third matter. Any reasonably assessment would conclude that there is no shortage of people. Look at the unemployment rates. You would think that those who go on living would be a bit more grateful to those with the Grace to back out of the Competition.

This is particularly noticeable in Japan. A great many young people who take the School Tests and don't do particularly well, decide immediately that they do not want to go on with the Life Style of the kind of person who does not do well on such Tests, and they commit suicide. Nobody has the bad taste to say so, but these suicides do somewhat solve the problem which would have arisen regarding what possibly could be done to place such people. In a highly competitive World, what is to be done with those who, well, can't compete? We have Winners and Losers. But when once the Loser has lost, what really is the purpose of continuing the game any further? Can't these people suspect that the continuation of Life would henseforth be somewhat anticlimatic?

Perhaps the Real Problem is all this Winner and Loser Competiton Crap. Honestly, with the Barbaric Direction this Culture of World Market Capitalism is going... moving closer and closer to the lowest subsistence Capitalism (Engineers in India working for less than a McDonald's burger flipper makes!) I can hardly understand why entire multitudes are not ending it all. Willing to put up with any crap.

We should have respect for our Suicides who, if for nothing else, showed a personal dignity that expected more and better of Life then the rest of us have been willing to accept.

You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.

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this is true. I took a course at Clark on scholarship day and it was about the effectiveness of psychotherapy. One question that the prof asked us was whether to recommend medication without medical guidance or therapy with no medication, as the patient could only afford one or the other. It was a pretty split decision, but anyway the guy had a good point. In reality, how many people actually get helped when they seek help?

Having sought + received 'help' I must say that it positively sucked. My first shrink was a counselor and she didn't seem to understand me at all. I could outwit her easily, so I don't think she was too bright. all her education and experience didn't give her any understanding of me at all. That, and she always took my parents side on everything.

Anyway I got rid of her in a compromise with my parents and instead started seeing a psychiatrist, you know one of those harvard-phd types. She seemed very friendly and I thought I'd have much more success with her. Anyway I opened up to her a bit, and as soon as things went sour with my parents over something, and I yelled at my dad, she positively framed me. She said that since I yelled at my dad, I was acting violent and she could call the police or send me to the loony bin. I actually cried when I heard that, because I knew I had to do whatever she told me or it was off to the police station or the crazy farm, and no more future for me.

So I ended up choking down mood stabilizing pills every day which at first made me feel numb and depressed, then angry and depressed, but incapable of actually getting angry enough to get it all out. Pretty miserable, anyway.

So two shtinks, two horrible experiences. So many people in the field just dehumanize their patients. The pills they make me swallow are like a f**king lobotamy, I swear. This is why a lot of people don't want help. My friends certainly wouldn't get help now, they saw how crazy I acted until I stabilized on the medication.

If you think about it, there's nothing surprising at all about suicide. Sometimes it feels like there really is no help out there, especially for kids in really bad situations at home and socially. It's a damn shame, I think, which is why I feel empathy for suicides.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.

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That is very true. I guess it isn't fair to be so judgemental. I love my life so much despite the bad things that sometimes happen, and I know that I don't have as harsh a life as some, and some don't have the optimistic disposition I have tried to impress upon myself. Sometimes, there are people who slip through the cracks of society, and even if they have friends and family willing to help, they just get ignored. This is a sad thing. I don't know. I just can't imagine myself ever committing suicide. For some, it might look like a good answer.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


Well, perhaps everybody is being a bit over critical of these people's decisions. *People who are ordinarily not judgemental, are being very judgmental. *Perhaps it is because these Suicides are not here to defend themselves.

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Very true.

You people who have never even once thought for a second that it might be better off to end your life will never...ever understand what it's like in the mind of someone who is ready to take their life. I find that judging these people having no knowledge of the sort of hell they are going through is extremely unfair. I feel like there's too much to say...and it's just not worth it to try to change anyone's opinions. Nor do I really care to. I no longer have tolerance for ignorance and lack of empathy.

nina. well said.

having thoughts about suicide is one of the few crimes that in this sociey can get you locked up without trial or right of appeal. telling a psychiatrist you're suicidal will get one dumped in a psych ward faster than you can say "i want a lawyer".

there is no help available for those that are majorly depressed, unless you're one of the lucky rare few who are helps by meds.

if not, then you're treated effectively as a criminal or at least a major social nuisance. its all put down to a lack of willpower. i.e. you just don't want to be happy, and you're being antisocial by being depressed and you're making everyone else around you depressed.

but dammit, you can't check out! you must stay, and be miserable. it reminds me nothing more of some WW2 POW prison camp kommandant (sp?). THERE IS NO ESCAPE!!!! YOU VILL STAY AND BE MISERABLE!!!!

there is no compassion in this world for the depressed/suicidal. there is no help either for the majority, even if they can afford it. its a lousy situation.

a few years ago, my roommate attempted suicide. she took a whole bunch of pills, left a note, and went up onto the roof to die. i paniced and called the dogs out on her. i am so ashamed at having done that. i realise now, that if she wanted to die. i should have respected her wishes.

so these days, if someone tells me they're wanting to die, i ask honestly "how can i help?", and its up to them what they ask for.... its the only moral/ethical/compassionate way i can approach this.

after all. my loneliness matters less than the relief of the pain of their existence.

Suicide...

Unfortunately, it is a subject that is malignantly generalised by most people, as we've seen here, as a selfish and stupid act.

I'm not saying it never is. For this topic, along with almost everything else in this world, everything depends on circumstances.

However, if a person feels they would rather take their chances with death than continue living, if indeed living is painful, and if they take themselves out without hurting anyone else (directly physically), then why be angry at them?

You may think they are being heartless by causing family and friends grief; but anyone who brings a child into the world must be prepared for all the possible consequences, and be respectful of their child's chosen path.

You may think that they are throwing the 'biggest gift' we have away, but who are we to judge the importance or value of a life?

Also, usually it requires a lot of bravery to face the unknown possibilities of where you go when you die.

I think it is cruel to prevent people from committing suicide if they are in a lot of pain (physically or mentally), and if they have thought long and hard about their decision, and have no second thoughts.

-nods nods-


Agreed.^^^^^^^^^

It's hard to generalize, fairly, on something like suicide, because it is an end that stems from an infinite number of circumstances. It's definitely not a subject that can be looked at with any great degree of objectivity, because the worth of life itself, is about the most Subjective..well...Subject....that there is.

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Originally posted by Bradybaker
No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

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I disagree.

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Originally posted by voidofform
nina. well said.

having thoughts about suicide is one of the few crimes that in this sociey can get you locked up without trial or right of appeal. telling a psychiatrist you're suicidal will get one dumped in a psych ward faster than you can say "i want a lawyer".

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Well, as I have pointed out, or tried to point out, that some people really have come to a "dead end" in their lives -- disgrace, disease.... some real and actual condition of intolerable pain and hopelessness for which there is indeed no possible mitigation. These people will not be talking about suicide, as they realize that talking about it would only marshal those Social Forces that could prevent its commission.

In discussing suicide and suicidal impulses, we must also consider some people are not being entirely rational, and that they are not at any real "dead end" -- that they are not facing an incurable and painful disease, or some horrible disgrace that would send one to prison, or that continued life would drag down one's family and community into ruin. Sometimes the impulse to suicide is pathological and unjustified to any reasonable evaluation of the situation. For instance, there are cases of young men feeling suicidal because they have been jilted by some girl friends. Now, anybody who has been around the block a bit knows for an absolute certainty that while being jilted is not the most pleasant of occurances, it can only be classified as a temporary frustration -- a mere bump in the road of life. And yet thousands of young men each year commit suicide under such circumstances. Then there are suicides triggered by career or educational frustrations -- losing a job or not being accepted into some University Program. yes, where all of one's plans had been single-mindedly in one direction and focus, then one might consider ending one's life rather than having to start all over again and plan a New Direction. Again, this brings to mind so many Japanese Suicides, where career frustrations so often impel suicides. Although I cannot be certain, I suspect that there are alternatives open to these young people.... not the first choice, but still enough possibilities still open to be able to make some positive contribution before what could be a much postponed natural demise.

This may be highly inappropriate, but I know its wrong and I'm going to do it anyway.

**Rides on the marry go round called life....notes that it goes round, not that it ends at any particular point. At times, the conductor is a royal ass, yes...but while on the ride, many people get plastic horsey saddle rash, a lot of people get the broken seat, and some people might have snuck on...but whatever the reason, who can really look at anyone else from any point of view and say "I know why (Why not)"**

I just merely stated that I have no sympathy for it. Although, I do agree and disagree with much of what has been said here. I don't really feel like quoting it right now, but I'm glad no one here has been hostile about it. (Spending time at Gwen's house, got to go to bed early. Stuff to do.)

Thanks for all your input.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam


..........I just merely stated that I have no sympathy for it.............

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Insensitivity is just emotional stupidity.

Your insensibility is not an argument for anything... just a confession of dullness.

You don't exactly have a bleeding heart, leo.

I agree and disagree also. I would feel slightly sory for them but I also believe that they knew what they were going to do and they probably told have the world before they decided to do it (extra-drama). Sadly, I believe taht nearly everyone ahs thoughts of suicide at one point in their life but only a hanfdul of the 6 billion (w/e) are 'stupid' enough to carry it through. Life has its ups and downs, when you go down, there always has to be an up... eventually :)!

Personally I think this is a very foolish topic. If you want to discuss suicide, that's fine, but with an opening such as "no sympathy for suicide?" What does that even mean? What if it happened in your family? It seems mindless to start a topic such as this in such a capacity. I mean, frankly, who cares whether you would show sympathy or not for a complete stranger? What difference does it make? It's completely irrelevant; if you are going to talk about it get to the crux of the issue, instead of needlessly stating such an ignorant and narrow view. Personally I don't think anyone who hasn't had to deal with suicide in his or her family should have anything to say about it one way or the other; you couldn't possibly understand it.

ok, what if the "up" is a bullet in the head?

If everyone has thoughts of suicide at some point in their life, but most of us have the willpower not to, then it stands to reason that it's no more right to criticize a suicide than it is to criticize a cigarette smoker or a fat person who can't stop eating donuts.

Also, I still don't see why some people here are dismissing suicide as an act of insanity. Reapply the above argument here: There's nothing crazy about smoking a cigarette even though it will kill you, or eating a donut even though you know it'll only make you fat. If a person sits back, evaluates the human condition, and rationally decides that he doesn't want to be a part of it, then suicide (in any form) is the only rational choice. Seriously, imagine yourself looking out at the world and all its injustice, all the bastards at the top and the potential bastards at the bottom, waiting to turn the tables so they can start the cycle of inhumanity all over again. If I read a history book from start to finish, my reaction would probably be something along the lines of "holy shit. if this is what it means to be human, I WANT OUT." If I looked out my window and could see anywhere in the world, I'd only have to look in a few places before the same reaction would seize me: "I WANT OUT!" If I could see the world and humans for what they really are, I'd want out, and I think you would, too.

And you assume that because I post the most recent suicide in my life, that is the only one of which I have had to deal?

Assumptions are dangerous.

Opinions are that, and to say an opinion related topic is foolish is just as childish as the opinion itself. Its really difficult to gauge this one way or another, since suicides aren't typically found amongst the discussees. (As someone pointed out earlier.)

Therefore, whether you meant to say that I have no experience with family related suicide, which I STILL have no sympathy for, is a little preempitive. I had an uncle hang himself, one of which I spent a good deal of my childhood with. I was sad, yes, but sympathy for what could have possibly made him believe that was his only option (or him, for his defeated outlook) no. After all, who among the dead have voice to say thier choice was wise or not? And who among the living can answer for them?

Like I said before. I just said I had no sympathy for suicides. This isn't philosophy, it's my opinion.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
Like I said before. I just said I had no sympathy for suicides. This isn't philosophy, it's my opinion.

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Sympathy is not an opinion. Sympathy is an emotion. And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. Not caring is not an opinion.

Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.

Stuping to insults huh? Well, I won't lower to that level. I respect people who maintain. Oratory is fine, but obusing it is just showing off.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


Sympathy is not an opinion. Sympathy is an emotion. And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. Not caring is not an opinion.

Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.

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For a such a figurehead of sympathy, your words are quite pompus. Intellegence has nothing to do with this, and yes, not having sympathy is an opinion. Just because you choose to not agree with something someone else says doesn't mean you have to spout derogatory phrazes at that person. Indeed, this makes you more of a "mindless clod" than anyone.

And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post, so you must not be as much of a fan as you claim, for I do not think you have committed suicide yet.

Don't you also claim to be a Catholic? A true catholic would never condone suicide, I though. I mean, there is the small matter of the "Thou shalt not kill" rule.....I thought that included yourself. I'm not even a Christian, but I'm just saying...

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post

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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry, this just cracked me up...

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn


And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post, so you must not be as much of a fan as you claim, for I do not think you have committed suicide yet.

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Seeing the utility of suicide for those that have reached a real dead end in life is not the same as being a Fan of Suicide.

When my father came out of remission and he was told that his cancer would come back with a vengence, and that the remainder of his lifesavings would be eaten up by futile medical measures intended to mitigate the pain and only extend his life by the shortest of increments -- he committed suicide. And I understand why he did it. Even approve.

But that hardly makes me a Fan of Suicide.

I'll tell you what. I hope that you and your family can see such desparation, and you still be so cavalier about it. See if you are so funny then when your parents are writhing hopelessly in pain. See how funny you are then.

That has pretty much nothing to do with what either of us replied to you. This wasn't a funny topic in the first place. The only person who even thought of it that way so far has been you, apparently.

You're pretty good at lingual and gramatical manipulation of conversations. I'll give you that much. I'm not going for that crap though, and you're point still falls flat on its face.

:makeitstop:

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


Seeing the utility of suicide for those that have reached a real dead end in life is not the same as being a Fan of Suicide.

When my father came out of remission and he was told that his cancer would come back with a vengence, and that the remainder of his lifesavings would be eaten up by futile medical measures intended to mitigate the pain and only extend his life by the shortest of increments -- he committed suicide. *And I understand why he did it. *Even approve.

But that hardly makes me a Fan of Suicide. *

I'll tell you what. *I hope that you and your family can see such desparation, and you still be so cavalier about it. *See if you are so funny then when your parents are writhing hopelessly in pain. *See how funny you are then.

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I've seen my family and friends in desperation. I've been there myself. Don't try to pull the old, insult trick, Leo. Being funny isn't even on the bill. I love people, and I have respect for people no matter what they do with their life, or don't do with it. By telling us your story, you are supposing that you yourself will get sympathy. And I'm sorry bout' your loss. But that's the harsh reality.

And being in unending physical pain is different than someone who is vying for someone else's sympathy. Committing suicide because your life isn't that great is giving in to all of your own irresponsibilities. You can always change your life, and suicide is just an easy out. It's not my place to judge those who hurt themselves or who are very emotionally unstable, but for most of the suicides I have personally heard about, the reasons for those deaths were for completely petty reasons.

Gwendolyn:

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You can always change your life...[/b]

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whoa since when?

Flying-Eagle:

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but only a hanfdul of the 6 billion (w/e) are 'stupid' enough to carry it through. Life has its ups and downs, when you go down, there always has to be an up... eventually ![/b]

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yah this is a lie, there doesn't "have to be an up...eventually"...That's false hope and being unrealistic. I'm pretty sure in the case of Leo'd dad...there was never going to be an "up...eventually !"..pfft...

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Originally posted by ~~o/~~~~~/~~~~shark!
Gwendolyn:

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You can always change your life...

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whoa since when?

[/b]

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When it isn't in the case of physical pain, but emotional, all you have to do is take responsibility for your life.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn


When it isn't in the case of physical pain, but emotional, all you have to do is take responsibility for your life.

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Well lots of strong emotions come from chemical imbalances, so that isn't always true.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

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Sympathy is not an opinion. *Sympathy is an emotion. *And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. *You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. *Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. *Not caring is not an opinion. *

Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.[/b]

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Not caring is an opinion. it's a veritable way of life, in fact, and a philosophy. Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions. I say there's a lot to be said for simply not caring, because to feel someone else's pain, especially when they don't want you to, is pointless. Empathy is necessary, but sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject. Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life. You can afford to feel the false sensation of simulated pain, because somewhere deep inside you want to share the person's misfortune. You envy their clearly defined problems and monochromatic distinctions of pain and joy, the simplicity and melodrama of a life lived more closely to the edge of human endurance. If someone wants sympathy, they're greedy. If you give someone sympathy without their consent, you're greedy.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sam
After all, who among the dead have voice to say thier choice was wise or not? And who among the living can answer for them?

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I like this. I don't think it's our place to question the dead, and much less is it our right to answer them or pretend to understand them.

basically what I'm saying is, don't PRESUME to know how I feel, I don't want to share my pain and I don't want you sticking your happiness in my face. That's how I feel about sympathy.

As stated in the beginning this topic is far to broad and complex to be generalized.
So going back and forth and taking what one person says and putting into the context of another's is useless.




Abstract thought ~
If you are an ultimate control freak and feel you are the man. The destiny you choose is in your hands. You pave your own path.
Does this mean you have to kill yourself to be in control of what none of us are in control of?
This is not meant to be taken in serious light. But I have seen some egos that you could probably get them to believe this. :bluesmile:

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Originally posted by Dangeruss
Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions. I say there's a lot to be said for simply not caring, because to feel someone else's pain, especially when they don't want you to, is pointless. Empathy is necessary, but sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject. Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life. You can afford to feel the false sensation of simulated pain, because somewhere deep inside you want to share the person's misfortune. You envy their clearly defined problems and monochromatic distinctions of pain and joy, the simplicity and melodrama of a life lived more closely to the edge of human endurance.

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This is a very one-sided and prideful way of looking at things. In fact, you have not defined what sympathy is: you have only defined what, in SOME situations, causes it.

Now, sure, it's hard to feel sympathy towards someone you don't know or care about, like for instance, someone you hear of in the news. In this situation, what you say MIGHT be true.

But if it's someone you do know personally, what you are saying is not necessarily true. I once thought as you do, actually, but have changed my opinion somewhat of late.

One feels sympathy towards someone we know for a myriad of reasons. Some of the reasons you describe might be true. But there are other reasons too, which in some cases, can totally overwhelm the more petty reasons you describe.

For instance, if you truly care about somebody, and you know their suffering, you may have a strong desire to see their life get better, perhaps because you think they deserve this.

It's often said that sympathy is a powerful aphrodisiac, but I believe this to be false. In such cases, the attraction is not bourne out of sympathy, some twisted desire to share another's suffering. Rather, sympathy is felt because of the same reason the attraction is felt, that being that you care about the person, and are emotionally attached to them.

From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being. Like it or not, sympathy is an inextricable part of the human psychology. You can deal with it however you want, you can characterise it as prideful, perverse, and arrogant. This may be true in some cases. But by doing this, you overlook the cases where it is not.

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Originally posted by The Blue Meanie

It's often said that sympathy is a powerful aphrodisiac, but I believe this to be false. *In such cases, the attraction is not bourne out of sympathy, some twisted desire to share another's suffering. *Rather, sympathy is felt because of the same reason the attraction is felt, that being that you care about the person, and are emotionally attached to them.
From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. *If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being. *Like it or not, sympathy is an inextricable part of the human psychology. *You can deal with it however you want, you can characterise it as prideful, perverse, and arrogant. *This may be true in some cases. *But by doing this, you overlook the cases where it is not.

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No, I don't believe sympathy is felt out of the same reason as attraction. I know what sympathy is, and I can and have felt sympathetic to those who I am not emotionally attached to, or attracted too. Although the sympathy is definately greater towards a loved one, or a great friend, that doesn't mean that just because a person isn't loved or a friend of yours, that you simply cannot feel sympathy for them. Maybe you have problems demonstrating sympathy towards those you don't know. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, what do you mean by a twisted desire to share another's suffering? Say your best friend is going through an absolutely horrible time. You have no desire to share his suffering, at least somewhat? Maybe it's not desire, but if someone very close to you is experiencing something horrible, you don't just stand there and be happy about it, in most cases you CAN'T just stand there and be happy about it. Because this person is so close to you, their pain would probably be felt by you, even if it is only in small portions. Pain is suffering, therefore you believe that you cannot share in anothers suffering? Or merely that it is sick to desire to share in another's suffering?

I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like, I'm not just some cold bastard who doesn't feel sorry for anyone but himself. Of course I feel sympathy, I just wish I didn't sometimes. I've seen a few bad examples in my short lifetime which, frankly, skew my opinion. Sympathy is of course a necessary human emotion, what bothers me is when it goes in the wrong places. I've seen people wheedle and beg for it, each with their own gimmick for gaining it.

I don't feel comfortable when people are sympathetic toward me. When I'm down I don't like to see my pain rub off on the people around me because it makes me feel worse. I'd rather the people around me empathize with me, but instead of getting upset when I don't appear well, simply give me the freedom of being the same on the outside as I am on the inside without pressuring me with expectations.

Despite my personal distrust of sympathy, I admit that in most cases, sympathy isn't a bad thing. Sympathy is something everyone needs a little more of, but we should remember that the only person who knows whether he deserves sympathy is the one we are sympathizing for. The people Sam described in his opening post were figuratively walking around like zombies, paralyzed with sympathy for the kid who deserved a lot more than to be cared for only after his death. In the cases of these people, no small portion of sympathy comes from guilt. The part rooted in guilt is the selfish part, the part rooted in empathy is the humane part. Anyway what bother me (and Sam I think) are the people who aren't genuine, the kind who feel sympathy for no reason or for the wrong reasons and are only trying to cover their own guilt.

Dangeruss:

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I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like, I'm not just some cold bastard who doesn't feel sorry for anyone but himself.

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Yes, you certainly were being very pessimistic and negative. Let's revisit that:

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Not caring is an opinion. it's a veritable way of life, in fact, and a philosophy. Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion

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This is pretty much the complete opposite of what you are saying now.

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I don't feel comfortable when people are sympathetic toward me. When I'm down I don't like to see my pain rub off on the people around me because it makes me feel worse. I'd rather the people around me empathize with me, but instead of getting upset when I don't appear well, simply give me the freedom of being the same on the outside as I am on the inside without pressuring me with expectations.

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Yes, you made the fact that you do not feel comfortable with others' sympathy very clear in your previous post:

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Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life.

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So, I ask you this: by what authority do you judge it to be not within the rights of others to feel sympathy for you?

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Despite my personal distrust of sympathy, I admit that in most cases, sympathy isn't a bad thing. Sympathy is something everyone needs a little more of, but we should remember that the only person who knows whether he deserves sympathy is the one we are sympathizing for.

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Again, this is a COMPLETE reversal and a backtrack of what you said earlier:

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Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions.
...
sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject.

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To be completely honest, I think that you are being incredibly two-faced about this whole issue. You make a long, emphatic and definite denouncement of the very idea of sympathy, and then proceed to retract the vast majority of what you said, turing it around to make it seem far more benign. In future, you may wish to consider sorting out your own opinions and feelings objectively and sensibly, BEFORE making them public, and then having to later retract them because you realise exactly how callous, extreme, and cold your beliefs, as you stated them, appeared to be.[/quote]

well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before! Quit painting me as the monster just because I presented a fringe opinion. I'm not here to inform you all politely what exactly my views are, because to you I'm just a name and an avatar and my personal beliefs don't really matter. Rather than bore you with my (believe me or not) generally moderate opinions, I thought it would be much more interesting to try to flip the very idea of sympathy on its head. It's devil's advocate: take a new angle on something to try to better understand it and your own. If you must know I do feel sympathy for suicides, as well as plenty of other people, and I do sometimes appreciate sympathy. I could write a few paragraphs on that and if you took the time to read it you wouldn't learn a single thing because, believe-it-or-not, my actual views on the subject are trite and moderate in comparison to the ones I presented here.

Also, no more of this name calling. You call me two faced and yet you yourself are agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time. You said that I'm right in some cases, but I was overlooking the cases where I wasn't right. Then when I put the first idea into perspective in relation to how often the pessimist case actually occurs, I'm two-faced. "two-faced" is an insult when you're talking about someone who actually is two faced, but in a debate like this where there are no sides and nothing to be won, I see no problem whatsoever with someone presenting a wide range of ideas, even if they conflict with each other. I'd rather be intellectually two-faced than be so gung-ho on my own ideas that I can't give others a thorough thinking-through. Don't be a dick and call my beliefs cold, callous, whatever. I'm terribly sorry to have upset you by sharing upsetting ideas. I'll try not to have them in the future, or maybe I'll put them in the taboo closet with all the other things we're not supposed to think about because they're not normal enough. If you still think that duality of thinking is an intellectual handicap or inconsistency of character, I suggest you read yo'self some Carl Jung.

This whole thread is getting off topic. No more cheap rhetorical moves like identifying me as subhuman:
"From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being." - ouch, baby. That stuff doesn't make your argument any stronger, but it does come off as prententious, if that's what you were going for :wink:
And no more brutally suppressing ideas simply because they don't match up with your own opinions: "In future, you may wish to consider sorting out your own opinions and feelings objectively and sensibly, BEFORE making them public, and then having to later retract them because you realise exactly how callous, extreme, and cold your beliefs, as you stated them, appeared to be." I don't retract a damn thing I said. as a matter of fact, I think it's wrong to whittle down your ideas to make them acceptable for public discussion, trying to make them more appealing to the average reader so you can convince him. That's a game for politicians, not two guys having a semi-anonymous discussion about the philosophy of sympathy. I'm glad to have something shocking to say, it beats starry-eyes speeches about appealing ideals and the type of things you like to hear. Your condescending tone here also doesn't make me or hopefully anyone else more eager to side with you. I could have called your views quixotic, trite, and melodramatic, but I didn't because I respected your opinions and sought to learn from them rather than try to make them fit with my own.

Sorry, Russ, but you're just contradicting yourself again, here. Just a few examples:

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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I don't retract a damn thing I said. as a matter of fact, I think it's wrong to whittle down your ideas to make them acceptable for public discussion, trying to make them more appealing to the average reader so you can convince him.
...
I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like,
...
well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before![/b]

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And another:

<!--QuoteBegin-Dangeruss
I'm glad to have something shocking to say, it beats starry-eyes speeches about appealing ideals and the type of things you like to hear.
...
believe-it-or-not, my actual views on the subject are trite and moderate in comparison to the ones I presented here.

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Now, as for this being "duality of thinking"?

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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If you still think that duality of thinking is an intellectual handicap or inconsistency of character, I suggest you read yo'self some Carl Jung.[/b]

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I'm familiar enough with Jung, thank you very much. Duality of thinking, however, is not the same as making an extreme statement and then later explicitly (pun intended) revoking it:
<!--QuoteBegin-Dangeruss
well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before!

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Now, it SEEMS to me that you have just been presenting radical ideas for shock value. Playing devil's advocate. Okay, I can accept this, though I do not believe this is what you intended from the beginning. The ideas themselves, even if they are radical, I can quite happily deal with and argue against, that's what "Extended Discussion" is for. However, what you SHOULD have done is made it clear that these radical ideas were not necessarily your own, right from the start. This would have avoided the confusion caused later when you appeared to retract much of what you previously said.

I didn't read your post, so there.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
That has pretty much nothing to do with what either of us replied to you. This wasn't a funny topic in the first place. The only person who even thought of it that way so far has been you, apparently.

You're pretty good at lingual and gramatical manipulation of conversations. I'll give you that much. I'm not going for that crap though, and you're point still falls flat on its face.

:makeitstop:

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'What... my argument is that you are emotionaly and intellectually stupid... so it only goes toward proving my point that YOU wouldn't get it.

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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I didn't read your post, so there. [/b]

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Well, :takethatfoo: to you, too, I guess. :whyme:

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
'What... my argument is that you are emotionaly and intellectually stupid... so it only goes toward proving my point that YOU wouldn't get it.

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You've committed the Ad Hominem fallacy, Leo.

Attack the argument, not the arguer. :nono:

I’ve been keeping up with this thread since its inception, but I don’t have any desire to argue with any of you. It’s been... interesting... to read everyone’s ideas. Not that anyone will care, but I am suicidal. What does that mean, exactly? It means that since I was about six or seven years old, I’ve been trying to die. For some reason, I keep waking up. Don’t ask me why; I don’t know. I should be dead right now, many times over. I should be one of these ‘selfish people’ you guys keep talking about. But I’m not. I’m still here and sometimes, quite frankly, that pisses me off. I didn’t ask to be born and I certainly didn’t ask for this whatever-the-fuck is wrong with my brain that makes it so I can’t smile or feel genuine happiness without a pill.

Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains. Not everyone can see the value of their lives. Not everyone can smile every day and see the bright side of things. Not everyone believes in hope. Not everyone can afford the help they need to correct that little abnormality. So we live and we suffer until one of our attempts finally succeeds or we somehow strike it rich and get what we need to live what you people call a normal life. Nice, huh? I guess that’s the price of a life. $140 a month. That’s how much my life is worth.

I haven’t made an attempt on my life in about four years. Most of those years were spent on medication, which I currently cannot afford. What keeps me moving right now is the knowledge that I won’t live forever and maybe, just maybe, I can learn something from this life while I wait. The goddess will come pick me up eventually and at least I’ll have a few souvenirs to take with me.

Anyway, I really didn’t want to get into it like that... And I didn’t write this post so you guys could tear it up in your own ways (which I’m sure is going to happen anyway). My actual point for this post was this: do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

If so, I'll leave it unlocked and/or move it to the R&S forum so you everyone can continue debating this into the ground. If no one feels like this is getting anywhere and no one is learning anything from it, it looks like it's about lock time.

I certainly feel like seeing everyone's opinions on the subject. I think it's neat to see a wider veiw than just my own....Even if I don't exactly agree.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains."

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This is actually quite true. Especially in cases where someone is suicidal from a young age, it changes the brain chemistry. Thoughts of suicide become the defaut in times of stress...even before the person has a chance to consider other ways of dealing with a problem, BOOM, "death will end all the pain."

I have the unfortunate situation of knowing where LS is coming from. I deal with it every day (since I was about 8 ). It takes TREMENDOUS effort and energy to just be kinda, 'ok and happyish' from when I wake up, until I go to bed at night. I have a system now, thankfully, that I have to follow every single day, to keep myself from being tempted to think suicidally as a means to solve my problems.

Some people have bad tempers they can't control...some are alcoholics, some sex addicts, etc. There are many different types of neuroses that can change the brain chemistry of an individual, making every single day a struggle to resist taking the 'easy way.' It IS a disease that must be treated constantly. It may never go away 100%, but I function at a conservative 75-80% which I find acceptable. But there's still always that fear that if a bunch of crap were to go wrong all at once, I'd probably dive off a building. And I'll tell you, it's not "EWwwwwww, don't be so selfish" that keeps me alive. It's not wanting anyone else to raise my son that fuels me. HAH, so actually being selfish is what keeps me alive.

So, the 'selfish theory' has hereby been proven to be false, neener neener neeeeeener :teeth:

All that said, this is a very interesting thread. It's good to know what the general public thinks about suicide, and it may help us know who to avoid, and who to turn to when it gets hard and we need help. :goodjob2:

Therefore....

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

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that would be a 'yes' for me

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

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Thanks for being so direct about this.

Yes, I do feel like this discussion is productive. I'm enjoying hearing others viewpoints, provided that they are brought sensibly and not just to shock other users, and I think there's a lot to be said for open, honest discussion of these sorts of issues, especially since, in western culture, they are often NOT dealt with and instead repressed and made "tabboo". IMHO, that's not healthy. Sometimes, there is a need to drag these sorts of issues into the ligh of public consciousness, and give them some serious thought.

However, when dealing with such a sensitive and emotive topic, there's bound to be emotive responses, and a potential for disagreement that is equally emotive and prone to get nasty. To be honest, these two considerations present a tension that might be hard to reconcile... let these issues be discussed, at the risk of allowing some emotive disagreement and possibly some nastiness, or, preventing that by inhibiting discussion of this issue.

Personally, I think this debate HAS been VERY productive so far, and I have gotten quite a bit out of it, and in fact, have been doing some serious reconsidering of my opinions as a result of some of the tings that some members have said.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains. Not everyone can see the value of their lives. Not everyone can smile every day and see the bright side of things. Not everyone believes in hope.

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This is true. I've seen this in my own life: a family that I have known for a *long* time has a hereditary problem with depression. I'm not exactly sure what causes this, but it's quite obvious that there is something wrong there, some inbalance in brain chemistry... people in this family, including my best friend, HAVE been suicidal. I myself am very emotionally stable... I count myself lucky. Because really, that's all it is - luck.

Now, like I said just above, I've been doing some serious reconsideration of my thoughts on this whole issue.

I don't feel sorry for somebody because of the actual act of suicide. It's simply either a choice, or an involuntary act/psychotic break... not quite sure which, and it may vary in different situations. But whatever it is, it is not the ACT that one should feel symptahy for. Rather, it is the REASONS for that act which we should feel sympathy for.

Much as I try to repress it, I'm a sympathetic person. Quite frankly, it hurts seeing the the things which LEAD to a person's suicide, such as these differences in brain chemistry LS was talking about, and the other real-life circumstances which lead them to commit suicide, many of which may be totally beyond their control.

Though I don't feel sympathy for a person because of the actual ACT of suicide, I most CERTAINLY feel sympathy towards these people for the factors which have led them to commit suicide either involuntarily, or out of some conscious choice.

As for whether suicide can be selfish?

Yes, it definitely can. But then again, this comes as no real surprise, because much of human action is inherantly selfish... when one sees the (often messy) situations that people who have committed suicide have left behind, one cannot help but feel angry towards those people and their decision/act.

This is perhaps the core of the issue under discussion here, and it's really quite hard to deal with. Should we feel sympathy towards these people for all the factors which have combined, in their lives, to make them commit suicide either involuntarily or through a conscious choice? Or should we feel angry towards them for the act and the effects of their suicide on ourselves and others?

Invariably, we feel BOTH. And that's why suicide hurts so much, and is such an uncomfortable topic.

As far as suicide goes, so that I'm not derailing the thread into a totally personal affair. I think that ultimately, and finally, the thread itself is too broad. Perhaps someone would like to propose a new topic for the thread itself? This could continue forever.

I hope my post didn't seem threatening. I genuinely wanted to know if everyone felt the discussion could go on civilly or if it was time for a move or a lock. It is a sensitive subject and although there were a few instances of name-calling, I'm glad to see that everyone is pretty open about it and people are listening, learning, and trying to understand something that's very complicated. That makes me smile.

That said, I’ll keep the thread here for now. Just go easy on the name-calling. I don’t want to have to make people go stand in the corner. :P

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
I don’t want to have to make people go stand in the corner. :P

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lol DO IT

hey, we need one of those dunce cap smilies << I looks for one >>

Thank you very much for your post, A Lost Soul, i think it shed a lot of light on the issue and it certainly put the thread in perspective. I was waiting for someone like you to step up when I was arguing with Tom Peace when he first arrived about his philosophy of love and joy. I felt like a jerk telling such a nice guy that he just didn't know what he was talking about, especially when everyone else seemed to agree with him. I felt like shouting DONT YOU GET IT?! NOT EVERYONE CAN JUST BE HAPPY!! I have clinical depression myself, and I have a few suicide notes dating back to elementary school (I should put those in my scrap book, eh? ha, har.)

I keep them because when I read them it's about the most f*cked up thing I could think of; they still creep me out, never mind how other people would react. Seeing those little gems of shock value now and then helps me put the situation into perspective; anyone who knew me as a kid probably didn't know about all those suicides I daydreamed about, probably had no idea how different I could be on the inside. I don't think any of my early childhood friends would have understood why I thought death would be fun, or how I could think that a good sit-down would be more fun than a game or sport. Thinking about that helps me get along with my family, who have their own share of problems like depression and anxiety.

My aunt and grandma share a house which they never leave. When we call them they don't call back, and if they agree to come over for a holiday they always cancel at the last minute. The aunt won't go to a hospital to get a prescription for an antibiotic that would instantly save her eyesight, which she's been gradually losing for years to an infection. Why are they afraid of people? Why don't they like fun? My parents didn't have any answers, or at least didn't like to talk about it very much. When I think about my family and my life, however, I start to understand.

I have two older half-sisters, which I call sisters because for all intents and purposes they pretty much are my sisters. If I didn't understand them as a brother, that is to say if I were someone else, I would probably tell you that one is flighty and the other can be amazingly bitchy at times. Now, since I am their brother I know that they both have depression at a chemical level, which is made many times worse by their father who never loved them and won't answer their calls or return their letters to this day. The flighty one works weird hours as a nurse and doesn't relate well to other people because she's, well, off in her own world sometimes. The testy sister really got the double barrel, she's anxious and depressed pretty much all the time. On top of that, living with hardly any money, she also can no longer afford medication and is handling it pretty badly. Luckily she has a caring and patient husband or I'd really have something to worry about.

There are other depressed and socially anxious people in my family and they all handle it differently, but the above cases pretty much represent the range. These are the type of people who I wouldn't understand if I weren't related to them. Their actions often fall well outside the range of normal behavior, and in an argument they're anything but reasonable. Still, I know what they feel albeit on a smaller scale, and if it's enough to quench my will to live then I can only imagine how they find the strength to carry on.

The suicide notes of yester-year gave me some insight on the constant battle between my appearance and my state of being. I can't expect people to understand right away that I don't feel happiness like they do, nor can I get impatient with them for crossing lines they don't see, nor can I avoid people alltogether to relieve the constant worry about whether or not I'm appearing normal. I'm glad I have my family to show me what not to do there.

This brings me to some explanation of my feelings on sympathy. I have to keep up a normal appearance whenever I'm around people, or suddenly everyone puts on their concerned face and tell me about how they worry about me, or tell me to smile, or, worst of all, tell me that my being sad makes them sad. These normal reactions to feeling concern for a friend are, in my mind, not courteous sympathy or genuine concern but a type of spiteful game that people play to make you blame yourself for being sad, a subtle way of telling me to stop being a whiney bitch and pretend to be happy like everyone else. And so, despite the benign nature of feeling sympathetic for a troubled person, a reaction in my mind drives cycle of self destruction as I begin to see my depression on other people's faces. We all tend to assume that other people think and feel the same way as we do, and I guess that's why I sometimes state apparently crazy things as fact. I gotta remember to stop making an ass outta u + me.

Anyway the dilemma for me is that the threat of sympathy keeps me alive, sometimes like a dog inside an invisible fence, sometimes more like a, well... something not so bad. The big question as far as the debate goes seems to be: was the sum of the unhappiness in the suicide's life greater than the sum of the unhappiness caused by his death or no? Assuming both cases are possible, it becomes more a question of who gets to decide. Should the suicidal person be allowed to take his own life, or do his loved ones have the right to trump his judgement on the basis of him not being sound? It's clearly a lose-lose situation with no real answers, because it always ends as it had once existed: in pain. The best you can do is understand, the worst you can do is pass judgement.

*edit* going farther back than I know is wise, I would like to just say that my views are not deranged or messed up because (as I just found out), nietzsche's views on sympathy and pity were almost exactly the same as mine. He said that they place you above the person being sympathized for, raising your own status by their misfortune; a predatory action disguised as one rooted in love. Now nietzsche may have had some misanthropic tendencies and ideas, but go ahead and try to call him a crazy SOB with nothing relevant to say, philosophers around the world know better.

Yeah, the thread has definitely generated some unique views, among other things. Perhaps it would be a good idea to focus the topic a little bit?

Perhaps instead of sympathy for suicides in general, we could focus on:

Sympathy for suicide's families?

This of coarse, would generate a more positive environment as well, considering the personal feelings involved in the original topic of this thread, perhaps people are too devoted to thier own views, no that that's bad, to do more than list thier opinion. Since arguing the topic has only produced either agreement or stark vindiction. It is a personal thing, suicide.

Any suggestions?

well, is there anyone who doesn't sympathize for suicides' families or is opposed to it?

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam

Sympathy for suicide's families?

This of coarse, would generate a more positive environment as well, considering the personal feelings involved in the original topic of this thread, perhaps people are too devoted to thier own views, no that that's bad, to do more than list thier opinion. Since arguing the topic has only produced either agreement or stark vindiction. It is a personal thing, suicide.

Any suggestions?

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Silly, everyone feels bad for the families who go through that. That's kinda boring, no offense.

Okay, agin, I think this is a topic which deserves and needs more discussion. So, in the interests of that, here's another question to think about:

Should the actual cause of a person's suicide change the way we feel about that person, with regards to sympathy, etc? For instance, let's take three possible situations:

1) An emotionally and mentally sound individual makes a careful weighing-up of various options, and makes a conscious and informed choice to end his life. (This would include, potentially, a situation that Leo Volont was earlier discussing, I believe...?)

2) A person who is NORMALLY emotionally and mentally sound, though various events and happenings in his or her life, is brought to the point where he/she is contemplating suicide as a viable alternative, possibly as a result of a period of depression as a result of those events and happenings in his/her life...

3) A person who has some sort of natural emotional/neurological imbalance or psychological problem, as a result of that problem and other possible contributing factors from his/her life, induces a period of depression worse than what is normal for that person, in which he.she either chooses to commit suicide, or does so as a result of some sort of involuntary psychotic break.

I believe these to be very different situations and deserving of individual consideration. So, what I ask, is should we feel differently towards these three different situations? If so, how?

Another question to ponder, is should it change the way we feel if the act of suicide is committed either (at least to some extent) voluntarily, or involuntarily due to a psychotic break or other similar cause? IS there such a thing as an involuntary commission of suicide???

I think that it needs to be pointed out that our principles are born by the choices we go making about the subjectivity of our past over the present, and the futuristic objectivity; by our principles come our understandment of everything, and with it comes our selfish choices, that born to identify with our feelings, all of our feelings are selfish and grips into pain or exitment. So there for in any case that a feeling is subdue, your opinion comes thru this process, and what you feel is selfish in any case, so, in order to feel sympathy for someone, in a case of suicide, you have to analyse that persons principles of life and aply some understandment from yours, there for it will come your opinion/choice. And I think this needs to be pointed out because most people here ain't thinking the subject in a goal of understandment of how your emotion should derive, as from the question indeed established.

I dont see any need to feel sympathy as the fact is if you commit suicide you have gotten the happiness you seek and so why feel pity for people who have gone and succeeded in desposing themselves of their pain.
I feel alot more respect for them because I have learned personally that it isnt easy to kill yourself, you may not care if you live and have a will of iron because your body will usually stop you, another complexity in the amazingly complex shell we have.
Two of my friends killed themselves and I feel happy for them for their lives were awful and they wanted nothing more but to die, we all have to die someday, wether sooner or later, life is just a detour from the happiness of death, life is a secodn but death is eternal people can say that its stupid but in a way its not, for living you struggle on with the pain of life and finally die, its unescapable, yet with death you are freed from all constraint.

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Originally posted by darklordofall
I dont see any need to feel sympathy as the fact is if you commit suicide you have gotten the happiness you seek and so why feel pity for people who have gone and succeeded in desposing *themselves of their pain.

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You make a good point. To feel sympathy for the actual act of suicide is what is in question.
But I do not think I would call it the happiness they seek. I am sure they would choose an alternative given the choice of how they feel. A liberation from the despair is what they are after, I would guess in most cases.
But one should feel sympathy towards anyone who feels bad enough to take their own life.
Unless their act of suicide is bound by religion.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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First of all, we would have to define the meaning of “sane”. However, I feel that conversation is better fit for the philosophy forum. However, if we are to go into the argument that those who participate in it are irrational, you will find in actual records that this is actually contrary to the truth. It’s been found that gifted teenagers and intellectuals of all ages are more susceptible to suicide and the general population. It was actually a somewhat bizarre feeling that passed when the author of psychology and biology book on suicide noted that a large amount of the authors of her references, respectable members of the scientific community, actually committed suicide themselves.

Little is known of why intellectuals are more prone to suicide than the general population though it is believed by many that due to their larger level of insight into society and general philosophy, they are more easily able to see the more depressing consequences of existence. As well, it has been found that suicide itself seems to require a large amount of intellect and rational thought. Among the species that actually commit suicide are the most intelligent; dolphins and humans are a few of the only organisms known to kill themselves.

In truth, suicide is often a logical escape from a situation and is rarely an impulsive act. Psychopaths after all, do not have a particularly large rate of suicide though they are impulsive by nature and often use suicide threats to get what they want (rarely carried out). In most cases, suicide often involves a process ranging through years of evaluation of the situation and the most common cases of suicides are performed by those that not only see no purpose in their existence (the jobless, disabled, and the old) but also see themselves as a strain on their families. In past times, this could rationally be seen as a way to better the situation of the overall tribe. I suppose this could metaphorically be seen as a drone bee sacrificing its life for the well being of the hive. Indeed, a common way to curb suicide and other disorders is to see to it that suspects are employed in a job to give them a sense of purpose. Lastly, the proposal that a logically individual can instantaneously become irrational at the moment of suicide is simply absurd.

What I have sympathy for is the person whose life is such that the option of suicide seems to them to be the only bearable choice. Whether it's because they wish to avoid the long drawn-out pain of terminal cancer, or they feel they are going crazy and see no path back to sanity, or they feel that the life choices they feel capable of making are so utterly depressing that death would be preferable, it's the life circumstances which bring on the choice to commit suicide which draws my sympathy. For some people suicide is truly their last resort, the last choice they can make and feel ok about.

For those of us who have attempted suicide as a call for help, I'm thankful that people are there to help make life changes that don't leave suicide as the only attractive option. Those who are successful in a suicide attempt may be calling for help as well. . .

Maybe they'll get it in the next life.

I greatly value my life, I can't see how I could ever bring myself to killing me. I can't see how anyone can. I have had an easy life though so I cant honestly say I know what I would do in certent situations, but I would like to think that I will remain the way I am, feel the same way about things . Although it is harsh to say I think suicide is for the weak. For people who have a weak threshhold on life when things are too much they break, but they are not temporaraly insane although they might not be in the right state of mind it would be slowly building up in them even if they dont really know it. Too much of any emotion, anger or frustration, sadness or depresion, apathy- lack of emotion I think can triger suicide. So maybe we all have our limits but the weak cant handle as much or they cant cope with it as well.

The only time I ever agree with suicide is when your going to die of some painful and/or crippling death. Other than that I don't dislike the Idea. I friend of mine tried to commit suicide because a girl left him. Which I think is a stupid reason. If it was me I would of got stoned and pissed and then got on with my life the next day. Sorted.
Now its not like I don't have sympathy for people with depression... But I honestly believe that some times (NOT always) people just need a kick up the arse to sort themselves out.

Don't necro post.