Middle Eastern Conflict

I am pretty surprised no one has started a topic on this before, so I am starting one on the current Middle East affairs, and the escalation between Israel and neighboring countries. I would like to hear your views on the conflict. [size=1]I know I am going to offend some people with my view, and many, probably most will disagree with me, so I apologize in advance.

[deleted by me as it is embarrassing and portrays me in a way that I am not really]
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Sorry about the what I wrote to anyone who had to read it. It was inacurate and innapropriate, and the result of anger, not logic, which is why deleted it.

I know your mad but israel is the clear aggressor in this case. I want to clear one thing up. Israel invaded Lebanon, and Lebanon killed the troops and captured the second two soilders on lebanons soil. They are clearly in their right to defend themselves when israelis drove tanks into their countries.

Israel has already since invaded the gaza strip and lebanon, which is clearly an offensive action. They are also threatening syria and iran. If they keep it up they are going to start a huge war against all 4 of them, which seems to be their goal.

You need to really calm down though because your not thinking straight. Ask yourself this, is invading two countries over the kidnapping of one person a normal response? It sounds like they will be adding and 3rd and a 4th to it soon. It really is just an excuse to go to war, you don't attack multiple countries over a single person being kidnapped.

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Originally posted by Alric
I know your mad but israel is the clear aggressor in this case. I want to clear one thing up. Israel invaded Lebanon, and Lebanon killed the troops and captured the second two soilders on lebanons soil. They are clearly in their right to defend themselves when israelis drove tanks into their countries.

Israel has already since invaded the gaza strip and lebanon, which is clearly an offensive action. They are also threatening syria and iran. If they keep it up they are going to start a huge war against all 4 of them, which seems to be their goal.

You need to really calm down though because your not thinking straight. Ask yourself this, is invading two countries over the kidnapping of one person a normal response? It sounds like they will be adding and 3rd and a 4th to it soon. It really is just an excuse to go to war, you don't attack multiple countries over a single person being kidnapped.

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I am sorry, I haven't read the news in detail, as I wasn't here when the Lebanon thing unfolded, and when I read about this, and heard it from my mom, I was really pissed off. Thanks for clearing it up a bit. Now that I have cooled down a bit, I am going to remove my long and viscious opinion from here, and stay out of this discussion, as I can't discuss this without getting emotional, and therefore do not think straight, causing me to write flaming articles that are way too strongly worded, and not totally accurate.

All I will say is that while Israel is the current agressor, I believe what started this specific, and quite messy conflict, is government supported Hamas rocket fire even before the end of the ceasefire. Things escalated from there, and what we see now is the effect of that.

The blame game doesn't help anything. As long as there is a cycle of revenege countries in that area will never be at peace.

Yeah, I'm not too terribly well informed, but I've read enough to know that this is really shitty. I dont think the Israeli backlash is going to help. Just because they won a couple of fast wars decades ago doesn't mean they can just go and bomb the shit outta people and hope for the best.

Bad stuff.

While I sympathise with the Palestinians and Lebanese in this latest conflict I'd say that the whole thing saddens me incredibly. Seeing Israel make such agressive strikes is just disenheartening. Yes, the holocoust card gets played for all the wrong reasons in the middle-east debate, and might not be relevant anymore - I don't know. But to think about it, and then to see Beruit airport in flames from an Israeli jet strike, to see pictures of Israeli tanks firing with whole crates of tank shells on the ground next to them... I don't know it just seems so saddening.

It will be interesting to see how far America will support Israel on this because even Bush has to see that continued support for Israel does not do the US any favours at all in the eyes of Islamic countries, for good or bad.

The American Press is so biased. For instance, Bob Simon, a Jew, with CBS News, while pretending to be wisely impartial, lamented that the cycle of retaliations would go on and on. But as he explained, he started by saying that the Palestinians had started it by kidnapping that one soldier during a tactical raid.

Excuse us all, but the Palestinians launched this operation in retaliation for the Israelis dropping a 155 mm howetzer shell on a little Palestinian Family that had spread out on the beach with a beach umbrella and some lawn chairs and some towels. BOOM! All dead. And Israel had begun by apologizing and then took it back. Admitting responsiblity might have consequences, and so they insisted that the 155 mm howetzer artillery shell must have simply dropped from the sky.

America and their FREE Press. its free for Private Lobbies to buy up a monopoly in Media Coverage and whatever lies they can fabricate. At least with a Public Press, there could be some Accountability, but with a Private Monopoly, the Public is left to be informed by the highest bidders.

Hmmmmmm. Who has more money to influence Publis Opinion? Jews. or Palestinians?

people need to come to understand that a Capitalist Monopoly can be just as Dictatorial and Tyrannical as any Communist Totalitarianism.

How can Palestinians be anything else but the Enemies of America when it is the Jews that control everything that America sees or hears?

I totally disagree with you Leo. While sometimes there is the Biased towards Israel opinion, most news I see and here are biased towards Palestinians. Like in the Boston Globe, you'll see an article, and it says directly, "Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian gunman," but all it says for the Israeli soldier is, "An IDF soldier was killed in a gunfight with Palestinian militants." Also, Israel may have more money to influence with than Palestine, but the rest of the arab countries, who happen to control the worlds oil, have much more money to influence with than Israel, and they do it too.

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How can Palestinians be anything else but the Enemies of America when it is the Jews that control everything that America sees or hears?[/b]

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:shock: Uhm...

You know, I'm not sure the old 'Jewish Conspiracy' card works anymore.

It actually started off pretty balanced but has been moving towards israels side more and more. Probably to gear us up to get the US into it some how. We have been wanting to invade iran after all. Its obvious who started this war though, anyone who says palestine started it is really bias.

Israel has some 10,000 captured palestinians and palestine captured 1, just 1 israeli. What they asked for was for israel to release all the woman and children they have, and don't ask me why they have woman and children but its admitted. So in response they invaded the gaza strip and took out all their power and water. Then someone shot a rocket into israel so in response they invaded lebanon. Lebanon captured two soilders while they were on lebanons soil so in response israel bombed the international airport and all their major roads.

Its just so obvious. You don't even have to know what happened. Israel against lebanon is like the US vs mexico. They are shooting random rocket across the border and israel is flying around in gunships and has tanks driving through their towns blowing everything up. Its totally a one sided battle and israel is picking on them.

Actually, having women prisoners is perfectly logical. Anyone who says a woman can't be a terrorist too is being sexist. The children part is a bit odd though. As for news bias, it really depends on what station you go on. Fox for example is very pro-bush, and is therefore pro-Israel, but other stations are very un-biased, and yet others are anti-Israel, it really depends on who you listen to. Also, Israel is using military attacks, while Hamas and Hesbalah use terrorism against civilians. The only reason the conflict is comparable to if US and Mexico fought is that the Government isn't the one controlling the attacks from Palestine and Lebanon, it is terrorists, and these are the smaller countries. Iran helped attack an Israeli military ship, and Iran vs. Israel is a lot less like America vs. Mexico than America vs. Russia. And all the money and weapons are coming from Iran and Syria to the terrorists, so while Israel may be attacking smaller countries, the people they are trying to stop are countries that are bigger than they are. What else is Israel supposed to do? If mexican terrorists were firing missiles into America, America would have no choice but to respond the same way as Israel, as terrorists are not real soldiers. They are organized civilians living with their families. There are no military bases to attack, just a few terrorists living next to many innocent civilians who did nothing wrong. Because of this, you can't destroy the terrorists' inferstructure that gives them the ability to fight, like the ports where Iran gives them weapons, without destroying the facilities regular civilians use, as these facilities are one and the same. If this was a regular army vs. army war, then Israel would be totally wrong in their actions, but here the perpetrators aren't armies, but civilians, and therefore they must destroy the inferstructure used by civilians.

They both do this stuff all the time, nothing has really changed except israel decided its time to totally smash in lebanon untill they can no longer funcation as a country. All lebanon can do to defend itself is shoot off rockets, they are totally out matched here.

They are totally helpless, their country has been invaded and they can't even defend themself because when they do Israel steps up its offence 1000%. Theres not going to be anything left but a big hole in the ground when they get done. Lebanon is like begging them to stop and they are just ripping the country apart.

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Originally posted by PenguinLord13
I totally disagree with you Leo. While sometimes there is the Biased towards Israel opinion, most news I see and here are biased towards Palestinians. Like in the Boston Globe, you'll see an article, and it says directly, "Israeli forces shot and killed a Palestinian gunman," but all it says for the Israeli soldier is, "An IDF soldier was killed in a gunfight with Palestinian militants." Also, Israel may have more money to influence with than Palestine, but the rest of the arab countries, who happen to control the worlds oil, have much more money to influence with than Israel, and they do it too.

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Yes, Arabs have a great deal of Oil Money. But if one bigs around, one finds that the Arab Intelligensia is quite angry with all of the old Benduin Chieftans who spend ALL of their Oil Dollars on new wives and fancy toys. Yes, if they put half the attention and a quarter of their available funds toward bribing America's Corrupt Politians that the Zionists and the Gun Lobbyists do, then we would have World Peace tommorrow, because without America's guaranteed unconditional support, Israel would have to deal for Peace. If America were to desist in pumping over 5 billion dollars a year to support Israel's War Machine, and had to actually pay for its own Arms, and pay to feed its soldiers out of its own tax budgets, and to purchase international oil with its own funding... that is, if Israel was put on the same level as all of its Enemies, they would have to come to terms.

It is America's greatest Blind Spot. America takes sides. And everywhere America takes sides, it precludes the possiblitiy of Peace. The greatest example here is with the first World War, where America supported Britains drive to conquer the World against Continental Europe's impulse to share in the formation of a World Civilization. Without America's interference, there might have been a Unifying Treaty that would have precluded World War II. Without America's interference, England and France might have left the Ottoman Empire alone, and today we would have had a blessedly stable Middle East.

America: Land of the Stupid.

Then there was the Yalta Conference. America agrees to divide the nations of Korea and Vietnam. Why? But then they fight two horrible wars to keep these nations divided. Why? Make a blundering mistake in the first place, and then support that blundering mistake with further mistakes.

America: Land of the Stupid.

Historically stupid.

Then there is the Unconditional Surrender Policy.

America can never make Peace because it refuses to talk to anybody. What is their State Department's Perpetual Policy in regards to any International Tension? Here it is: "We will not negotiate until you first surrender to everyone of our demands in the first place". Huh? America wants to its opponents to grovel and give up every interest, before America will even begin to talk. But when these Nations or Organizations so thoroughly surrender, then what incentive does America have to Talk. Its Over. America smiles and congratulates itself on having faced down its enemies and walks away. What are the enemies to do but to say to themselves "Never again trust America". this not the way to lasting Peace.

America: Land of the Stupid.

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Originally posted by FunkyMonk

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How can Palestinians be anything else but the Enemies of America when it is the Jews that control everything that America sees or hears?

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:shock: Uhm...

You know, I'm not sure the old 'Jewish Conspiracy' card works anymore.[/b]

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Well, look at the Jewish Campaings in Public Relations.

It is horribly Incorrect, Politically, to ever criticize anything Jewish.

It is conditioning.

Any other Ethnic Group entertaining anything like the Zionist Agenda would be considered... well, like Nazis... like KKK White Supremacists.

But it is Jews who want to dominate the World and commit Genocide SO THAT MAKES IT OKAY.

Simply look at CNN's promotional trailers. They advertise an anti-Islamic bias (with what'shername repeating over and over again everyday what a tyrant Saddam Hussein is and how glad she is personally that he has been overthrown). Yet Israel subjects and tyrannizes over people in a far worse fashion than Hussein ever did. Indeed, before the U.S. began its Campaigns of Sanctions and Hostilities against Iraq, Iraq was one of the most thriving and prosperous of the Developing Nations. He was a Secularist who was upholding a system of Bureaucratic Fairness between all of the Ethnic Groups and Religious Sects in Iraq.... Heck! His Foreign Mininster was a Coptic Christian! Yes, there was some level of Security. The Bosque Party had only been in power some 30 or 40 years, and many Sectarians thought they could profit greatly if they could ever overthrow Secular Government... with America Support. But NOW America is killing and imprisoning 10 times the people that Hussein ever bothered. And under Husein, Iraq was peaceful and prosperous. America has destroyed and disrupted everything and made every condition worse than it was, and is fixing nothing.

But to CNN Saddam Hussein is the Bad Guy.

How could this possibly be unless there is a decided and directed bias. And who would this Anti-Arab bias benefit.

Follow the Money.

Not only does the American Government supply Israel with 5 Billion dollars a year, but the Allied Jewish Appeal and other Lobbiest Organizations extract money from the affluent American Jews. Not only are American Politicians bribed with this money, but a great deal of these Dollars can be used to purchase Equity Shares in America Media Organizations. Hell! Its an Investment. And once they have controlling interest in these media company's, what kind of Stories do you think will run.

But, yes, I agree with your point, that it has become very unfashionable to blame the Jews on everything that they have been doing to conquer the World and destroy World Peace. I would indeed have many more friends if only I would fall in with everyone else and become a good 'Nazi'... oooops, I mean Zionist.

Whats stupid is when we get bribed with our own money we gave to them. The american people need to wake up and noticed its just another way for politicians to steal money from the american people.

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Originally posted by Alric
They both do this stuff all the time, nothing has really changed except israel decided its time to totally smash in lebanon untill they can no longer funcation as a country. All lebanon can do to defend itself is shoot off rockets, they are totally out matched here.

They are totally helpless, their country has been invaded and they can't even defend themself because when they do Israel steps up its offence 1000%. Theres not going to be anything left but a big hole in the ground when they get done. Lebanon is like begging them to stop and they are just ripping the country apart.

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Okay... this is what MIGHT happen:

Israel become much more unpopular across the Arab World. .. Especially in Pakistan, a Nuclear Power. As it is many in Pakistan's Military Establishment think it disgraceful that Pakistan is upholding Pro-American Pro-Zionist Policies. The people of Pakistan are inches away from Rebellion, and this was BEFORE the present escalulations.

Where is this heading?

it is extremely possible that Israel will be Nuked.

And even if Israel retaliates against the entire Arab World, nuking everybody themselves. Who will win in the end? The Beduins will ride out of the Desert and kill every Jew they can find... with Stone Age Weapons, but dead is dead whether one is killed by Gunship Hellicopters and Tanks or by swords and arrows.

But even if it does not go nuclear. Israel is making yet another generation of inveterate enemies.

What happens every time you destroy an economy and push the unemployment level up above 50%. One creates a broad class of Terrorists -- of Militiamen.

Think about what Men are and what men do. If a Man does not have a job to go to every day, then what does he do with himself? If his wife works, then he can drink, gamble and smoke cigerettes on her income. But in a Patriarchal Society where women don't traditionally do much of the work, then the man must get a stipend from somewhere. They join Militia Groups or Terrorist Organizations. WHAT CHOICE DO THEY HAVE?

So it is that American Policy and Zionist Policies are self-defeating. With every attack and sanction they only expand the pool from which their Enemies recruit.

In the last 40 years the America Government and the International Community has funnelled over 300 Billion Dollars into Israel's campaigns of aggression and genocide. Now, does anybody think that if just a fraction of that money would paid toward compensation of Palestinian losses the whole issue couild have been resolved?

On the surface it seems cheaper to Steal then it does to Pay. But Righteous Resentment needs to be factored into the Account.

Again, if America would cut off Israel and begin to pay the Palestinians, and now the Lebanese, 5 Billion Dollars a year, we would soon have Peace.

Besides, what do they need Israel for anyway. Couldn't they move to the Real Promised Land.... Florida.

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Originally posted by PenguinLord13
Actually, having women prisoners is perfectly logical. Anyone who says a woman can't be a terrorist too is being sexist. .

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Well, people should not adopt self-defeating policies. One should do a Cost-Benefit Analysis on some of these policies. Okay, how much harm can some girls do? Now against this possible harm, factor in the damage done by the Resentment provoked by disregarding every chivalrous impulse and modicum of respect for Women.

yes, it may seem paradoxical, but Arabs and Muslims DO have a version of respect for Women... not as being interchangeable with Men, but a respect for Women as Women -- as revered Mothers, respected Wives, and cherished Daughters. Now, let America and Israel be plastered all over the Arab Media for raping and abusing these same women?

One does not want to Win the Battle only to lose the War.

One needs to continue to think even when one is at War. Especially when one is at War.

War is too important to be left to the Generals. The Bone Heads.

If someone nukes israel its all over. They are almost guaranteed to send a nuke back and probably at every country in the area too. You can argue about peoples bias all you want but theres no good way to spin a nuke.

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Originally posted by Alric
If someone nukes israel its all over. They are almost guaranteed to send a nuke back and probably at every country in the area too. You can argue about peoples bias all you want but theres no good way to spin a nuke.

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Yeah, but it is very unlikely in the near future. Iran won't have nukes for 10 years even at their current pace, so the only risk is North Korea, and what do they have to gain in giving a nuke to terrorists? Maybe a nuke back from Israel? America is huge, so even if they got nuked, most of the country would be unharmed, so if terrorists nuked them with a North Korean nuke they couldn't nuke the North Koreans back, as they can't prove 100% where the nuke came from, so the most they could do is invade North Korea like Iraq to keep them from doing more damage. On the other hand, a nuke at Israel would basically destroy Israel as a country because of its small size. At this point Israel wouldn't give a damn if they didn't have enough evidence to totally prove the North Koreans gave the terrorists the nuke, as they would have nothing to lose, and would just nuke them right back, along with Iran probably, just in case it was Iran who gave the terrorists the nuke.

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It is horribly Incorrect, Politically, to ever criticize anything Jewish. [/b]

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Which is true. But something being 'politically incorrect' doesn't mean there's a conspiracy. It's very politically incorrect to argue against Gay rights, but that doesn't mean there's a gay conspiracy. A culture bias doesn't equal a conspiracy.

But yeah, you probably would have more friends if you didn't sound like a flaming anti-semite.

If the world withdrew support from Israel, they probably would be a little less belligerent. But they probably also wouldn't exist in ten years.

I'm not a real big fan of Israel's policy at the moment. They get terrorist attacked and flip out. Kinda sucks. But hey, nobody's going to stop them because people only worry about countries they perceive as threats to themselves.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
The American Press is so biased. For instance, Bob Simon, a Jew, with CBS News, while pretending to be wisely impartial, lamented that the cycle of retaliations would go on and on. But as he explained, he started by saying that the Palestinians had started it by kidnapping that one soldier during a tactical raid.

Excuse us all, but the Palestinians launched this operation in retaliation for the Israelis dropping a 155 mm howetzer shell on a little Palestinian Family that had spread out on the beach with a beach umbrella and some lawn chairs and some towels. BOOM! All dead. And Israel had begun by apologizing and then took it back. Admitting responsiblity might have consequences, and so they insisted that the 155 mm howetzer artillery shell must have simply dropped from the sky.

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Leo is SO right on. The press is disgustingly biased. I watched CNN as they covered the story and was disgusted because all they do is interview israelis and jews...it's so one sided. They tell sad stories about an Israeli mother and daughter that just died in the hospital...but what the hell??? What about the hundreds of Lebanese that are dead? Are you kidding me? What about the 10,000 Palestinian prisoners that are STILL being held captive by the Israelis??? You don't hear about THEM.

And you realize that Israel is targeting CIVILIANS!?? It's not trying to bomb Hezbollah....it's destroying Beruit...the most beautiful damn city over there. Israel is hoping to piss off the citizens of Lebanon and turn them against Hezbollah, but they're so stupid their plan is only backfiring haha.

I think Hezbollah are heros...they are the ONLY ONES with some fucking balls who are willing to stand up and say...hey wait a minute...we aren't going to take this shit!! The arab countries get the shit beat out of them by Israel all the time...every few years....the big bully has to pick on the weak countries. And Hezbollah is standing up to the big bully.

I just love how they are also trying to get Iran involved in all of this. Nothing would make Israel more happy than to give the US an excuse to INVADE IRAN. And you know what??? Part of me hopes that we do invade IRAN. You know why? Because if the Shiites in Iran fight back...holy shit...it's the end of the US. Seriously...I mean, those guys believe they are going to heaven no matter what. Just wait...

And why the hell is Israel allowed to have 400 nuclear warheads but none of the arab countries can have any???? Why is Israel so special? Um...yeah. Oh and now Israel is trying to say that Palestinian family that got bombed the hell out of? Stepped on a land mine. HAHA. WoW. The lies are sickening.

While I will admit the press is often biased they also sometimes give misleading information, against Israel. For example I was watching Fox news, and they were talking about the devastation in Lebanon, but at the same time were showing pictures of devastation in the backround in Rosh Pina and Tiberias, both of which are in Israel, without mentioning the background pictures were of Israel, so unless you know your Israeli geography and read the captions in the pictures carefully you assume they are showing Lebanese wreckage, but the wreckage shown is in Israel. While there may be more wreckage in Lebanon than Israel, this specific scene was totally misleading, as people thought they were seeing Lebanese devastation, and are sorry for the Lebanese, but they are really seeing Israeli devastation, which had they known would have helped them understand what all these rockets are doing to Israel.

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And why the hell is Israel allowed to have 400 nuclear warheads but none of the arab countries can have any???? Why is Israel so special?[/b]

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Because they're not considered a potential threat to the US / UN security council type countries. So they can get away with having stuff like that.

Leo is right about the bias. But again, bias doesn't equal conspiracy.

PenguinLord13


Finally, Someone who speaks my language :wink:

The civilians are in between both parties. And since hamas and hizbollah do not allow any Palestinian or Lebanese people to be sympathetic with Israël they can only choose their side in order not to get killed by them. Palestinian peacefull ''Friends of Israël'' are often killed by Hamas and Hizbollah.
If a palestinian or Lebanese Kid, woman or man dies in this war it is ALWAYS a tragedy... Eventhough they are taught to hate us Jews from the day they are born into this Cruel world:
A human Death is only worth a Big Celebration if the person is someone actively involved in killing Israëli's across the border.
Hell yeah I'll celebrate and cheer when I learn that Sheihk Nasrallah ( Hizbollah's founder ) is Dead! Off course. I guess I am a little more of a Humanist than you are penguinLord, But I defenitely feel your frustration as it is my frustration too.

I have lots of Family in Israël myself. I guess people have such little imagination into the feelings and motives of others that you'd really have to be Jewish and/or half Israëli yourself to feel the Jewish Suffering. (I am Jewish and Half-Dutch/Half Israëli)

Israël attacking Hezbollah in Southern Libanon is a very bold and brave action. The entire world is on our back but FUCK them. They won't take the time to hear us. The hypocritical ''World Community'' only brings cameras and microphones to suffering Lebanese and Palestinian people, but they hardly ever cover the Israëli side of this story. ( I know this side from my family and from what i have seen and hear myself

The day Israël attacked Hizbollah in Lebanon was the day that Israël said: ''Okay that's it. Israël is taking no more SHIT today''

Also Strange how the media makes it look like the death of 8 and abduction of 2 Israëli soldiers by Hizbollah was the only cause for this (therefor) ''extremely exagerated'' Israëli attack. However the Media (which's blood I can drink these days) never EVER covered the Countless Hizbollah Missile and Katchusha Civilian attacks that have been going LONG before the Media decided to mak a media circus out of the Israëli conflict here in the west. The continuous Katchusha and missile attacks on northern Israëli cities and towns THAT is the cause of Israël being bold, saying FUCK YOU HIZBOLLAH and striking across the border to eliminate Hizbollah: The Lebanese Government won't, wouldn't dare disarm Iran's long arm: That is what Hizbollah is.

So PenguinLord, don't even try to convince the anti-Israël sentiment carrying people here...or anywhere: They simply don't understand. And they don't want to. And Fuck if they don't. We don't need their support.
It will take Hell to freeze over for Israël to EVER surcome to UN-pressure or Islamic Radical religious terrorism: It won't happen. And if it appears to happen I'm joining the army there. I'd rather DIE defending what I believe in then sit and watch as it gets blown appart. But don't worry. Israël and it's people have been around for Millenia. And we're not quite ready to leave this world yet, no matter how many large masses march our direction while burning our flags.

They shall fall, if not to Israël itself, then to Lebanese uprising people, who will become increasingly more Sick of Hizbollah for turning their country into a battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Leo

it is extremely possible that Israel will be Nuked. [/b]

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The Nuke is the biggest Macho-weapon ever. In a small contained area such as the middle east Pakistan would do itself and neighboring allied arab nations just as much damage as Israël. the Nuke is a weapon to threaten eachother around with, but when war really starts it is with jets, tanks, missiles and ships.

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Originally Posted by Leo

Israel is making yet another generation of inveterate enemies.
What happens every time you destroy an economy and push the unemployment level up above 50%. One creates a broad class of Terrorists -- of Militiamen.
Think about what Men are and what men do. If a Man does not have a job to go to every day, then what does he do with himself? If his wife works, then he can drink, gamble and smoke cigerettes on her income. But in a Patriarchal Society where women don't traditionally do much of the work, then the man must get a stipend from somewhere. They join Militia Groups or Terrorist Organizations. WHAT CHOICE DO THEY HAVE? [/b]

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Well the TRUTH is that Israël has ALWAYS had these enemies. Religious Insanity, racism, hatred and intolerance is the cause and this sentiment has been around in the middle east at times of the persian Empire(Under rule of Persian Shah Haman). Now wether Israël beseiges gaza or Southern Lebanon or wether they withdraw: The hatred is everlasting and the Hizbollah ArtilleryFire WILL NOT STOP. Israël merely said to all terrorist factions bent on destroying Israëli civilian lives and houses: ''Okay that's it. Israël is taking non of your Bullshit anymore'' In time Lebanese and Palestinian civilians shall uprise agains the opressing dominant terrorist factions that hide amongst them in civil areas and so bring the war TO the people.

Let terrorists go ahead and they will simply continue spreading a ballistic rain over Israëli civilians.
This is something you cannot allow...Jesus I can't believe I'm actually telling people this...Shouldn't that be Crystal clear and obvious???
Let me say it very clearly: FUCK HIZBOLLAH. FUCK EM BIG TIME. and FUCK Iran's Ahmedinejad too.
Hizbollah after all is Iran's long arm.

And we shall cut it off so it can no longer terrorise and kill our people. Simple as that. No retaliation or vengeance o any of that Western Media Bullshit . Just doing that which is nececary for those radical RELIGIOUS FUCKS to stop bombing our goddamn people.

THERE nuff said. if anyone finds the above arguable...well go fuc... erm fishing. I have no words for you, terrorist sympathiser. It should be Crystal Clear that Israël is simply gunna Fuck Hizbollah way back in time and into the North untill it is incapable of Shooting Missiles at people, MY FAMILY being some of those people.

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Originally Posted by Leo

Again, if America would cut off Israel and begin to pay the Palestinians, and now the Lebanese, 5 Billion Dollars a year, we would soon have Peace.
Besides, what do they need Israel for anyway. Couldn't they move to the Real Promised Land.... Florida.
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Man what have you been smoking? You think that the Palestinians and the Lebanese haven't received tons of life Aid money for infrastructure, schools, hospitals, housing, business already.
Do you have any idea where that money ends up?
Well the Money MEANT for the ordinairy people of Palestine will be invested into weapons bought from Egypt via the Gaza strip. And the money meant for Lebanese people will go straight into Hizbollah's hands. Now HIZBOLLAH does indeed take good care of it's people. That is only PR off course, since they use most of the money to go shopping for guns and missiles in Iran which in time will land on unsuspecting, innocent Israëli civilians.

Supporting any of these 2 causes, even though I really DO feel for the poor palestinians and Lebanese (yeah I also am a Human being), will come down to supporting terrorism that will lead to lots of Israëli casualties.

No I'll be watching out to what ''charity organisation'' I'll donate my money.
I'd rather place my money on a projct fighting Poverty and Famine in some African nation where there's no terrorist factions or brute Dictators who will simply confiscate the money to sponsor their war or the building of their 5th palace.

No offense but you sound delusional. Its easy to say everyone is racist and evil but have you ever considered the reason for what they do? The entire "We have to crush all terrorist at all costs and if your not with us your a terrorist" crap is the same propaganda Bush spews out every time hes on TV. You don't agree, your a terrorist sympathiser, what a bunch of bull.

I am not defending the palestinians or lebanon, but the current actions of israel is totally uncalled for. They are slaughtering civilians, they are trying to level entire towns, they have destroyed lebanons infrastructure thousands are going to starve and die from that, they have been reported using chemical weapons and now its been reported that they have blown up atleast 10 red cross ambulances.

For every rocket a palestinian shoots into israel, israel fires back 4. So don't say they started it with that. Israel never stopped their rocket attacks either, they are just as guilty. Don't say the captured soilders started it because they were captured after they had already invaded(or "raided" if you like to spin it) lebanon. This war was started because israel thought it was a good time to grab more land up in southern lebanon.

This has nothing to do with terrorists. They are killing 10 civilians for every memeber of hizbollah, and a third are children. I can't believe there are still people who think this is about terrorists. You don't wipe out the population of an entire city if your trying to get some terrorists.

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Originally Posted by Alric

This has nothing to do with terrorists. They are killing 10 civilians for every memeber of hizbollah, and a third are children. I can't believe there are still people who think this is about terrorists. You don't wipe out the population of an entire city if your trying to get some terrorists.
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Ok.SO what Hizbollah are? A charity organisation?
And yes you do wipe out the whole city if the terrorists are hiding amongst and being supported by the population.Now certainly many of the people there dont support Hizbollah by own free will but they are being forced.Hizbollah have the weapons or not?What would you do if they enter your house?You`ll say no?
Thats why they are called terrorists or now we have a new name for those people?

I fully support Israel in blasting all those teritories and Bush in his anti terrorism war. :sniper:
The lands are in no need of people who support terrorists by own free will.The terrorists are using islamic religion for their goals.Why the leaders of the organizations dont go and blow up themselves with dynamite on their body just for example of how their followers should act?
NO! While the brain washed innocent people are trained in camps of how to use explosives on themselves the leaders sit in their chairs and record themselves on a tapes calling for the islamic world to raise up against the unbelievers."Blow up yourself and kill the others who are around you and you`ll go in heaven" :angel:
I mean common..... :mad: :mad:

No, they are terrorist. They are not the reason for the war however, they are only the excuse. If they weren't there they would be invading for some other reason right now.

Hi all,

You guys know what? Two weeks ago, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich went on "Meet the Press" and described the current war between Israel and Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon as "World War III." I don't know about you guys but I feel Newt's words are questionable and he's suspect.

the war between Israel and Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon is nothing at all like the world wars. The past conflict to which it is most analogous is, in fact, the Cold War. This is just once again a remake of the ongoing Cold War between Russia and the U.S.
And I'm sure we can all agree on this one.

They are calling it WW3 because they want to make it WW3, that is their goal. If israel starts invading more countries and the US jumps in and invades Iran, then we really do have a big war.

This debate is pretty badass...we've got some fucking real arab hating rednecks ( do you guys watch Nascar? ..yah i know insults are the lowest debateing form...but the republican's won the election maybe it works??)) here and some people who prolly just made the fucking NSA watch list...I'm also surprised ppl here take the media seriously?

Uh I'm gonna say it was damn stupid to put Isreal where it is...that was some good thinking. Couldn't the jews have their selfish little promised land somewhere where there were a few less people to steal it from? I'm sure there was somewhere in africa that was un-populated and has decent weather...maybe even a nice beach. SO yah thanks alot God for that stupid trash WMD bible...telling those gullible Jews that they are far better and deserve this land for being the chosen ones and it can't be anywhere else...goddamn.

...there are governments and extremists that fuck a lot of shit up, often there might be decent reasons w/e but the point is the civilians and the regular people are fucked over by all this more than anyone...the majority have to suffer.. and are often pawns/soldiers in the wars of leaders.

btw im not picking a side...fuck isreal, fuck america, fuck the promised land, fuck any suicide bombers or muslim fundys...Fuck anyone thats out to kill innocent people...fuck them. There might be good reasons to fight...but the way it's going will only work out for the Yuri Orlov's of the world...

...I'm starting to think someone should start The Weather Underground back up. Maybe not in the "fuckup" way they were before though...Who's in!!??

Actually thats a good point shark. They picked a horrible place to build a country and because they live right there in the middle of a desert they actually don't have much water. Infact one of the biggest reason they keep trying to steal land from other countries is probably because they want the water.

I confess I don't know as much about the current conflict as I probably should, if I'm to make any real comment on current affairs. So I won't. However, there was a news article about it on television recently. The scariest part, I found, was the interview with this eleven year old girl. She said, in perfect English and with the most serious of all faces to the camera:

"We will kill the Lebanese".

I don't know about you, but that phrase being uttered from someone who is barely double-digits in age scared me. That and it really drives home the point of free speech, of "proper" education and the real definition of the term "brainwashed".

This discussion is Sick.. I love it. I feel the war between Israel and Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon is a "real" war, in the sense that Israel genuinely wants to eliminate or at least reduce the threat posed to northern Israel by Hezbollah fighters. Iran, the U.S., Syria and Israel are playing geopolitical Twister, and using poor Lebanon as the game board. Can you say left foot on Beirut...lol :lol:
Through its funding, arming and training of Hezbollah, Iran is using this war to warn the United States that any effort to force Iran to give up its nuclear program will have violent consequences. To me the current fighting only demonstrates how, with a nod, a wink and some Iranian-made missiles, Iran can use a relatively small Lebanese militia to push the Middle East to the brink of a full-scale regional war. A full-on, Middle East war could severely, if not fatally, undermine the United States' key regional allies (Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia), cripple the world economy with sky-higher oil prices, and put the 130,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq at risk of being attacked by Iraqi Shi'ite militias allied with Iran. By giving Hezbollah medium-range missiles and the green light to use them on big cities like Haifa, Iran is attempting to warn Israel off launching air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities. By hitting Hezbollah and Lebanon so hard, Israel is
communicating to Iran that even smallish attacks on Israel will be met with massive counterattacks.
Right-hand on democracy..lol :laughtillhurts:
By supporting such a forceful Israeli attack on Lebanon, the U.S. is staring Iran in the eye and saying, "Iran, we're not afraid of your threats and we're willing to sit by and let Israel destroy Lebanon if that's what it takes to destroy your buddy Hezbollah and show you that we, too, mean business."
Left-foot on sovereignty...lol :rolllaugh:
So now where do we stand? There's only one other thing left to say.. Anymore Players? How about we change the rules and of course anyone associated with the NPT can get first dibs on the small fry.'
May the best Man (idiot) win.

With all the fuck everything stuff you post does confuse me, shark, but the point on Israel being poorly placed is well taken. Even though I am a jew, the crap about a promised land, and being a better religeon than anyone else because "god" says so pisses me off. This goes for all religions though. I can't stand it. If people got the fact that we are all just that, people, no matter the religion, there would be a lot less fighting and horrors in this world. In my opinion the stupidest move on the part of humanity, which is constantly repeated, is the fighting based on religion. I understand having religion, but killing people over such a trivial thing is plain dumb.

This all being said. Being of totally Israeli heritage myself, and considering I consider myself as much Israeli as I am American (though not enough to serve in the army) :), I am with Israel on their response, as, if I am not mistaken, are most Americans, though I am not 100% sure about that fact. Also, I would like to remind everyone that I am not an arab-hating racist pig who wants to kill all arabs, and the only reason I wrote my first thing, which I erased, was that I was ultra pissed off and underinformed, causing me to write a post that does not reflect me as a person. While I am more saddened by an Israeli death, if a person isn't actively participating in terroristic activities, I don't want Lebanese or Palestineans to get killed any more than I want Israelis to get killed.

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Originally Posted by PenguinLord13

...Even though I am a jew, the crap about a promised land, and being a better religeon than anyone else because "god" says so pisses me off. This goes for all religions though.
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No, it doesn't.

Judaism is an ethnically specific 'Tribal Religion'. It does not so much Worship a God or a Moral Ideal so much as it provides a mirror for a People to narcissistically worship themselves. It is a Low Religion. It is a great deal like Japanese Shintoism. And it is much like Englands informal Religion of Pro-Anglosaxonism, expressed in what they consider the semi-sacred writings of Sir Walter Scott.

But then we have the Higher Religions that cross national and ethnic boundaries -- Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism, and yes even Islam.

So don't go around pretending that all Religion is as shitty as your own. Not everybody is a Nazi. Not everybody is a KKK. Not everybody is a jew.

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Originally Posted by Leo

No, it doesn't.

Judaism is an ethnically specific 'Tribal Religion'. It does not so much Worship a God or a Moral Ideal so much as it provides a mirror for a People to narcissistically worship themselves. It is a Low Religion. It is a great deal like Japanese Shintoism. And it is much like Englands informal Religion of Pro-Anglosaxonism, expressed in what they consider the semi-sacred writings of Sir Walter Scott.

But then we have the Higher Religions that cross national and ethnic boundaries -- Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism, and yes even Islam.

So don't go around pretending that all Religion is as shitty as your own. Not everybody is a Nazi. Not everybody is a KKK. Not everybody is a jew.
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Fucking bullshit. What the hell makes Christianity, or Islam any better than Judaism. In Christianity you worship a human being as a "god", and look at all the destruction christianity has caused, and in Islam, it is in the koran that jews are infidels. I didn't even know there was such a thing as Zoroastrianism, so I can't say anything to that. The only exception is Buddhism, which unlike other religions is actually peaceful, and introspective, and concentrated on inner peace, instead of worshiping some theoretical entity (god).

Also, comparing the KKK and Nazis to Jews is ridiculous, as both the KKK and Nazis hate jews, and tried to kill them (Holocaust, ring a bell?). That is the most pathetic comparison I have ever seen.

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Originally Posted by PenguinLord13

Also, comparing the KKK and Nazis to Jews is ridiculous, as both the KKK and Nazis hate jews, and tried to kill them (Holocaust, ring a bell?). That is the most pathetic comparison I have ever seen.
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Okay your reasoning is that because the Jews were once victimized, that they are now entitled to take their turn being the Super Race.

And you call me Bullshit?

Remember that 20 Million People died in the so called Holocaust... the primary reason being that Churchill and Roosevelt had imposed an embargo over all of Europe, suspending all the traditional imports of food stuffs on which had become dependent. People everywhere were starving. In the Camps they starved to. Sometimes, where food shipments were simply dried up and no food was on sight, there was exterminations simply to preclude the expected rioting and long sufferings of Mass Starvation.

So it is that Churchill and Roosevelt killed over 20 Million people.

So why is it that only the Jews have some entitlement to be the only People that have a right to complain? And then to use it as an excuse to commit genocide against others?

And then we need to wonder just how bad the Holocaust was, when we are endlessly hearing about Survivors, Survivors, Survivors. How is it with so many survivors that ANYBODY was actually killed. With so many Survivors, the Holocaust could not possibly have been intentional, planned and systematic. If the Germans wanted the Jews dead, they had 6 complete years of total political jurisdiction in which to carry out these executions and genocide. Instead we have survivors, survivors, survivors. A whole damned country full of Genocide Survivers. Am I the only one to see the paradox there?

Then we need to look at German Law. It is against the law to do any Historical Research on the Holocaust. I wonder why?

All we know of the Holocaust is what the Prosecuting Lawyers at Nuremberg presented. Lawyers. Lawyers are not likely to give both sides of any story. And History does not record what the Defense Attorneys had to say.

but this we know.. that even years after the War, Europe was still starving and America had to institute the Marshall Plan to rush food to the starving masses. Would we not expect the starvation to have been worse during the War?

But the Jews were just a minority of those who died.

If the Jews suppose that this makes them SPECIAL, then this is more a sign of the same problem, that Jews think they are better than everybody else.

What would a Jew then expect from the rest of the world but a deep and abiding RESENTMENT.

The way blacks resent KKK. The way Jews resent Nazis. So the World has every right... every 'Goyum'... has an absolute right to resent the Jews.

And then when the Jews have evinced a tendency to attack all other peoples, and to expand their Territories by no other right but through violence and aggression, does not the World have a right to defend itself?

Historically economic predators. Now military predators.

And then Jews are surprised when everybody does not universally love them. But the irony is that if the Whole World was as eager to defend itself as the Jews, then Israel would be erased off the map, with the same instant and total aggression that Israel does not hesitate to slam down on their victims. But the World wants to be Peaceful and Civilized. And that Barbaric Tribe simply takes advantage.

Well if you ask most of the people who thinks Judaism is bad they will tell you that the Jewish teachings says nonjews are not even considered human and so its acceptable to cheat, steal, murder and rape people as long as their not jewish, and even promotes that stealing from them is good. They will also say that it is all written down in their religious texts. Now most Jewish people will tell you that is totally untrue.

I guess the only real way to find out is to actually read them.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Well if you ask most of the people who thinks Judaism is bad they will tell you that the Jewish teachings says nonjews are not even considered human and so its acceptable to cheat, steal, murder and rape people as long as their not jewish, and even promotes that stealing from them is good. They will also say that it is all written down in their religious texts. Now most Jewish people will tell you that is totally untrue.

I guess the only real way to find out is to actually read them.
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The Jews have a joke... "Why did God create Gentiles?"

BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY RETAIL.



Thinking of yourself as the Chosen People of God... the inferences are obvious. Everybody else ISN'T.

It is similar to the way that the Calvinist Protestants think about the difference between the Elect of God and the damned reprobate. The way they see it, if somebody becomes Rich and Wealthy and Powerful, then this signifies that God had chosen them to be the Elect. Everybody else is damned and can very well be treated that way. This is why the Calvinists and the Protestants could be Slave Traders without batting an eye and being able to get a good nights sleep. They thought of themselves as above and beyond ordinary normal human beings.

Also there was the Book of Judges and the Book of Kings in the Old Testament which layed out the Campaigns of Genocide against the Canaanites and the Philistines. These are sited as the Zionist's Authority for possibly killing any and every person on Earth that would occupy any piece of Real Estate that a Jew would rather steal than pay for.

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Originally Posted by ;289616

Uh I'm gonna say it was damn stupid to put Isreal where it is...that was some good thinking. Couldn't the jews have their selfish little promised land somewhere where there were a few less people to steal it from? [/b]

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Were do you suppose we go then? Europe? Well experience taught that isn't a very safe or friendly place for jews to live, In africa on the Desert Sands? Perhaps the last of the Jews who survived the Holocaust will surcome to heat and hunger there.

Or perhaps you should Deport us to America: Then the world will say ''SEE? them jews ARE taking over America and with it the WORLD! It's a Jewish Conspiracy!''

Maybe if you would Ship us to the NorthPole ...would the World Community be happy then?
I think the Jewish people have been through enough deportation, death and exile and the only Hystorically Correct place for them to live is Israël, where their roots are. Now they wanna move us around again? Can you imagine the big Jewish Middle Finger Being raised towards hypocrits in the World Community?

We Jewish people have to take care of ourselves and fight for our righ to exist. You can't just move people around. And had the arab population of Israël been more Tolerant towards the Jews moving in since 1945 than Jews and Arabs would have lived as neighbors in Yerushalayim and the rest of Israël. Too bad the Local Arab Population didn't want to share the land they lived on with Jewish immigrants who just escaped doom.

No one cares what happens to the Jews. Only we ourselves do. So WE shall be taking care of ourselves. And if some Islamo-Insane Religious Terrorist faction Fires Missiles on us. We'll fire back at their possition. NEED I EVEN EXPLAIN WHY Even if the Hizbollah Target is in the middle of a suburb we shall eliminate those who seek our destruction. This is because Hizbolla use their own people as a shield: they hide behind lebanese Children while they shoot at Israëli army posts and Northern Israëli villages. Needless to say what the newspaper reads after Israëlis return fire: ''ISRAËL KILLS 20 CHILDREN IN LEBANESE SCHOOL''

But who's fault is it really that those 20 children got killed? Hizbollah hides amongst children or in Hospitals just SO that the newspapers will say just that and form Public opinion AGAINST Israël. Of course a Soldier who is being shot from afar will return fire NOT KNOWING he's firing at a school full of children.

Hizbollah would only be SOMEWHAT ''brave'' if they targetted armed Israëlis only and when they would go out in the field when they fire at Israël so that when Israël returns fire, the civilian children wont be in the Crossfire. It is Hizbollah who puts them there in the Crossfire

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Originally Posted by Alric

No offense but you sound delusional. Its easy to say everyone is racist and evil but have you ever considered the reason for what they do? The entire "We have to crush all terrorist at all costs and if your not with us your a terrorist" crap is the same propaganda Bush spews out every time hes on TV. You don't agree, your a terrorist sympathiser, what a bunch of bull.How do you do that? How do you make your head empty of thoughts?[/b]

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Who said I am Pro-Bush cuz I'm Pro-Israël? I hate Bush. He and the previous american presidents sponsored Israël to the point where they are DEPENDANT on US-support. The US have done that to all of the Western world. Fuck Israël doesn't have any choice but to take the support or go down in flames. They would have gone down in flames if i wasn't for the US-Militairy, Political and economic support. The US only sees Israël as yet another powerbase in ''Their'' Middle East.

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Originally Posted by Alric

For every rocket a palestinian shoots into israel, israel fires back 4. So don't say they started it with that. Israel never stopped their rocket attacks either, they are just as guilty. How do you do that? How do you make your head empty of thoughts?
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Excuse me? Israël withdrew all of it's defence forces from Southern Lebanon in 2000 as a result of negociations between Israël, Lebanon and the UN council. A good Deal don't you think?

Well Hizbollah didn't and continued it's Ballistic attacks on Northern israëli Civilians. Tell me that I'm wrong: My family called me many times between 2000 and now that they were in bombshelters again because Hizbollah was busy again. And many times before 2000. Basically they are pretty frequently underfire. Something you haven't Heard or Seen on the News isn't any less Real. It's just Informantiion you were deprived of. No wonder your concept of this conflict is so far from reality.

No if you want to believe Hizbollah are saint and the Israëli army are brutes that just, for no reason at all, invade southern Lebanon....Continue believing that. whatever man. People are so ignorant.


BTW: You don't know how increasingly Dangerious it is to be Jewish unless you yourself are Jewish I guess.
If you're white have blue eyes and blond hair: Yeah the world may seem pretty Racism-less.
I have Dark Blond hair, light Blue eyes and white/slightly tainted skin. Too bad my heavy black Middle Eastern eyebrows give me away.... And wearing a DavidStar Pendant may prove to be really Dangerious....I speak from experience. INTOLERANCE. here there fucking everywhere. You watch: This good sovereign world is an illusion. always has been.

No why don't you continue to believe this world is free of racism...Only I, and millions of other Ethnic Minorities, know it's all around us since I have been confronted with it a 1000 of times here in ''free'' Holland. The West. It's a fucking joke Hizbollah are seen as Charity here. but the Anti Jewish Hizbollah-sentiment is spread out throughout the muslim-minorities throughout the western world.

You watch this world as it becomes more and more revealed so you can see what it really is: Filled with Racist hatred. more than you could have ever imagined.

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Originally Posted by SKA

Were do you suppose we go then? Europe? Well experience taught that isn't a very safe or friendly place for jews to live, In africa on the Desert Sands? Perhaps the last of the Jews who survived the Holocaust will surcome to heat and hunger there.

Or perhaps you should Deport us to America: Then the world will say ''SEE? them jews ARE taking over America and with it the WORLD! It's a Jewish Conspiracy!''
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Thank you SKA for mentioning a point I forgot to make in my last post. While putting the jews betweeen a ton of Arabs is pretty illogical, putting them in the middle of Europe isn't much better (and there weren't any british territories which could be given to them to my knowledge), they'd probably stay where they are before moving to Africa, where sadly there is much hunger and starvation, and who says that the Africans wouldn't attack Israel too. And America, would be a "Jewish Conspiracy". Also, now that the jews are in Israel, they are in Israel, and there is nothing you can to about it unless you want another Holocaust (which brings me to my next point)...

...Leo Volont, just shut the fuck up you ignorant pig. Who do you think you are saying the holocaust never happened. What the fuck do you think the gas chambers were for? A big gas oven? No you idiot, they were for killing the masses. And while there were survivors, what about the many people we know died, and NOT of starvation. Take Auschwitz for example. Over a million people (over 90% jews) died there. I don't care how little food there was, over a million people don't die of starvation in one place like that. Are you fucking serious. They were forced into the concentration camps by train, and then either put to slave labor, or killed in one of the many ways the Nazis killed people. My grandma is a peaceful person, but if she got her hands on you, considering she barely survived the holocaust, I get a feeling you'd be lucky if she just killed you :)

Also, what Israel is doing is not genocide. Taken from The Free Dictionary:

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gen·o·cide Pronunciation (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. [/b]

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Israel is not systematically trying to eradicate the entire lebanese nation, the entire muslim religeon, or all arabs. While Israel is trying to destroy Hezbollah, that is not genocide, as their goal isn't to kill everyone, but to get rid of active terrorists, destroy the military capabilities of Hamas. Israeli has a reason to do it, they were attacked, and they are not trying to commit slaughter, so it isn't genocide. The holocaust was genocide, as it was a total slaughter for no reason other than that the people being killed were "different". While Israel is shooting more rockets than Hezbollah, Hezbollah shot off the first ones, so Israel has a right to respond harder. Saying Israel is wrong by shooting more missiles than Hezbollah is like saying that if someone punches you in the face in the aim of taking you down, you are wrong by slamming them to the ground, and knocking them out in self-defence.

Hezbollah does not give a shit about the Lebanese people. They don't care if Lebanese civilians die, as long as they kill as many jews as possible. All Hezbollah wants is to hurt Israel, and to make the world hate Israel, and even if it means they get hurt twice as hard. They aren't fighting for Lebanon's rights, many Lebanese blame Hezbollah, not Israel. Yes, you heard me, a large portion of Lebanese citizens want nothing to do with Hezbollah, and blame them for the fighting. As I said before, the terrorists are hunkered down in civilian areas, so when you attack the terrorists, you are also attacking innocent civilians.

Oh, and by the way, I hate Bush too, and agree with SKA on the analysis that America supports Israel the way they do in order to have controll in the middle east.

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Originally Posted by Ne

This discussion is Sick.. I love it. I feel the war between Israel and Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon is a "real" war, in the sense that Israel genuinely wants to eliminate or at least reduce the threat posed to northern Israel by Hezbollah fighters. Iran, the U.S., Syria and Israel are playing geopolitical Twister, and using poor Lebanon as the game board. Can you say left foot on Beirut...lol :lol:
Through its funding, arming and training of Hezbollah, Iran is using this war to warn the United States that any effort to force Iran to give up its nuclear program will have violent consequences. To me the current fighting only demonstrates how, with a nod, a wink and some Iranian-made missiles, Iran can use a relatively small Lebanese militia to push the Middle East to the brink of a full-scale regional war. A full-on, Middle East war could severely, if not fatally, undermine the United States' key regional allies (Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia), cripple the world economy with sky-higher oil prices, and put the 130,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq at risk of being attacked by Iraqi Shi'ite militias allied with Iran. By giving Hezbollah medium-range missiles and the green light to use them on big cities like Haifa, Iran is attempting to warn Israel off launching air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities. By hitting Hezbollah and Lebanon so hard, Israel is
communicating to Iran that even smallish attacks on Israel will be met with massive counterattacks.
Right-hand on democracy..lol :laughtillhurts:
By supporting such a forceful Israeli attack on Lebanon, the U.S. is staring Iran in the eye and saying, "Iran, we're not afraid of your threats and we're willing to sit by and let Israel destroy Lebanon if that's what it takes to destroy your buddy Hezbollah and show you that we, too, mean business."
Left-foot on sovereignty...lol :rolllaugh:
So now where do we stand? There's only one other thing left to say.. Anymore Players? How about we change the rules and of course anyone associated with the NPT can get first dibs on the small fry.'
May the best Man (idiot) win.
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Wow how well said :wink: Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yeah I think too many people are way too enthusiastic to participate I this Twister And the one that spins the wheel is the US. Now the majority of this Topic (even it's Title) is referring and discussing the PROBLEMS and the causes in this Conflict.

I want to know if any of you Twister-players have an idea of what might be the solution in the Israëli Palestinian Conflict? ( I count the Israëli/Lebanese Conflict as part of the ''palestinian cause'' since that's what they seem to fight for too )


I for one am a Great Supporter of the 2-State Solution. But in order to achieve that first there needs to be a Stable, Responsible Palestinian Authority that keeps it's own people in check first.
And as for Hizbollah in Lebanon: I say Establish a Mega Mega UNMilitairy Force in Southern Lebanon and Northern Israël Too!(So it becomes clear to the UN what it's like living in Northern Israël too ) And form an excellent bufferzone between the 2 parties: Hizbollah would either STOP terrorising just so the world will think ''Hey see? they ARE rightious'' PR reasons OR they would continue attacking Israël and have the UNforce and the World Community on their backs.

Either way it would be a good thing to have a buffering UNforce to keep the situation stable, untill LEBANON has disarmed Hizbollah ( which wil take hell to freeze over...but nothing's impossible ) and removed from Southern parts of Lebanon which they now use as a misslie base to launch ballistics on northern Israël, Haifa and now even BEYOND Haifa.

I hope to god my family who had just Fled from Northern Israël to Tel Aviv WILL actually be safe in Tel Aviv.
I am one of the only who still sees hope here.

hey Leo volont sad person guy who's over 60 years old and still not a day wiser,

I read in PenguinLord's post you are one of those denying the Holocaust? Have you seen UFOs too? And do you have an Astral Master Named Zoltain that ''Speaks'' to you from the Universe or something? What kind of person are you? A Cult member?
Well if the Holocaust is such a FearyTale can you tel me what DID make my Jewish grandmother's Family ''dissappear''? Man This type of sentiment is so airheaded.

Funny you present yourself as an intellectual. However you are must be so weak minded to actually believe these insane theories that denie the overly obvious Genocide: The Holocaust ( In which family of mine had been killed too, lots of them ) The Russians Uncovered many many Nazi SlaveryCamps where Jews had been working in slavery and later ending up being Transported to the special ''DEATHcamps'' where they were GASSED with ZYKLON-B and their bodies Burnt on a large scale. The Nazis tried to blow up and erase the tracks of this Genocide but the Russians were just advancing too fast and Indeniable Evidence was kept intact: Gas-Chambers, Survivers tales, Zyklon-B gas canisters, mass-cremation ovens....You would make for a Terrible Lawyer BTW.

People who denie the Holocaust are the same people that would, if they lived in I.E. The Netherlands during the Outbreak of WW2, Collaborate with the Nazis. It is just plain out loud Ridiculous to Denie the Holocaust. I think all of these people should just ''disappear''. And then we'll all pretend nothing ever happened.
Have you been to a psychologist yet? Cuz you seem to be Socially retarded too. I seem to be not the only one you've pissed off on these boads. You say the Jews in Camps Died of Starvation due to Trade Embargos made by the allies which caused lack of overall foodsupplies?
Ever Heard of ZYKLON-B, Joker? Genocide in it's purest form.

By telling about ''The Jews have a Joke'' , Leo Volont, you Generalise and appearantly assume Jews all share the racist sentiment of that joke. Off course there are Jews with racist and Superioristic Views, No Different than Europeans, Arabs or any People in the world: Racists are everywhere amongst every ethnic population( SEE?! it IS everywhere;P ) Jews not excluded. But To generalise is to shove the privilige in my face that I am a Jew and would Probably feel superior and laugh about that joke.

I am half-Jewish by race, Liberally Jewish by culture and am NOT religious. I was raised with Hanuka and Pesach N stuff....But I don't see nonjews as ''Gentiles'' or even as Non-Jews.

PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE Persons Individuals, That's how I, an INDIVIDUAL with a Jewish Background see it. So please Leo Volont, keep your FILTHY PREJUDICE away from me.


If only Hamas, Hizbollah and Friends would see i the same we wouldn't have this conflict in the first place, the Jews would have migrated to israël without a fuss and Chaim could have been Ahmed's neigbor...see?

Too bad that wasn't so and the radical core of the local Israëli arabs revolted against the Jewish migration. They need to be taught Hospitality I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ne

This discussion is Sick.. I love it. I feel the war between Israel and Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon is a "real" war, in the sense that Israel genuinely wants to eliminate or at least reduce the threat posed to northern Israel by Hezbollah fighters. Iran, the U.S., Syria and Israel are playing geopolitical Twister, and using poor Lebanon as the game board. Can you say left foot on Beirut...lol :lol:
Through its funding, arming and training of Hezbollah, Iran is using this war to warn the United States that any effort to force Iran to give up its nuclear program will have violent consequences. To me the current fighting only demonstrates how, with a nod, a wink and some Iranian-made missiles, Iran can use a relatively small Lebanese militia to push the Middle East to the brink of a full-scale regional war. A full-on, Middle East war could severely, if not fatally, undermine the United States' key regional allies (Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia), cripple the world economy with sky-higher oil prices, and put the 130,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq at risk of being attacked by Iraqi Shi'ite militias allied with Iran. By giving Hezbollah medium-range missiles and the green light to use them on big cities like Haifa, Iran is attempting to warn Israel off launching air strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities. By hitting Hezbollah and Lebanon so hard, Israel is
communicating to Iran that even smallish attacks on Israel will be met with massive counterattacks.
Right-hand on democracy..lol :laughtillhurts:
By supporting such a forceful Israeli attack on Lebanon, the U.S. is staring Iran in the eye and saying, "Iran, we're not afraid of your threats and we're willing to sit by and let Israel destroy Lebanon if that's what it takes to destroy your buddy Hezbollah and show you that we, too, mean business."
Left-foot on sovereignty...lol :rolllaugh:
So now where do we stand? There's only one other thing left to say.. Anymore Players? How about we change the rules and of course anyone associated with the NPT can get first dibs on the small fry.'
May the best Man (idiot) win.
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That is well put. How true it is. Regardless of sides, and who I support, I agree with the analysis. Entertaining and to the point. Great post Ne-yo

Of course the holocaust happened, just like 9/11 was commited by terrorists from the middle east and not the US government. There are facts that back up both the cases. Actually, thats a great example. Now I am not saying the holocaust didn't happened, but there is an instant knee jerk reaction people give when ever anyone brings up the subject. In cases like that it can be impossible to talk to someone because they won't listen to the facts, they don't need them, they have already made up their mind.

Also people need to calm down. No offense but you don't come across as very rational when your cursing at people.

As for lebanon, it would be fair to call it genocide, as per your defintion there seems to be a systematic and planned extermination of an entire national group. Mainly everyone living in south lebanon.

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Originally Posted by Alric

As for lebanon, it would be fair to call it genocide, as per your defintion there seems to be a systematic and planned extermination of an entire national group. Mainly everyone living in south lebanon.
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That's where you are wrong. Israel isn't trying to kill everyone in south lebanon. They could attack lebanon much harder than they are now if they wanted that. They are using, as an Israeli official put it, "only 5% of their military power". If genocide was the goal, then there would be no one alive in southern lebanon by now.

No offensive but they are not using 5%, and I believe they are trying to kill everyone. They are totally leveling the towns. They are attacking everything, theres reports that they are blowing up every car that moves, they have hit red cross ambulances, they hit schools. The first thing they did was destroy all the roads so no one could get in or out to cut them off so they could wipe out the entire population. Heck they even blew up the UN building, Can't leave any witnesses to the genocide.

Oh wait I forgot the UN was hiding terrorists inside their peace keeping building. Hey I hate the UN like anyone but even I don't believe that.

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Originally Posted by Alric

No offensive but they are not using 5%, and I believe they are trying to kill everyone. They are totally leveling the towns. They are attacking everything, theres reports that they are blowing up every car that moves, they have hit red cross ambulances, they hit schools. The first thing they did was destroy all the roads so no one could get in or out to cut them off so they could wipe out the entire population. Heck they even blew up the UN building, Can't leave any witnesses to the genocide.

Oh wait I forgot the UN was hiding terrorists inside their peace keeping building. Hey I hate the UN like anyone but even I don't believe that.
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You know what the problem is with this Discussion? People don't actually take the time to consider THINKING about other people's different views and arguments. Instead they're already preparing to ''Return Fire'' since they see that they are on the ''One Side'' of this conflict and others arre on the ''Other Side''.

We would be starting our own conflict. I think if we would listen to eachother, especially when our Opinions differ most, we should remain OPENMINDED to suggestions of others: Not simply saying: ''Bullshit! You're Wrong!'' Cuz what If I'm not? Or the person you are Disagreeing with? Do you people even CONCIDER eachother's contradictions to Possibly Contain some Truth?


If people here would stop ''immidiately returning fire'' and STOP throwing Racist, Religiously fanatic and other hate carrying remarks around here, this Discussion may actually have some high intellectual level and it may actually enrich our minds with new views and info.

People are too conservative: They stick to what they have chosen to believe. Open your Minds to Eachother people.....And be nicer towards eachother. I think we are to Treat eachother with respect here, no matter how different our opinions may be.

Remember it's a Discussion about War, not a War :roll:

I am in no way trying to provoke the sensibilities of the people on this board, but I believe when we start talking about war abstractly and not deal with the actual truth of the matter we are minimalizing our own humanism and turning this conflict into a game-situation. I believe pictures speak louder than words and I will warn you that they're very graphic. Here are some photos of the aftermath of Israel attacks:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle14180.htm
http://www.daraghmcg.org/2006/07/30/whats-going-on/
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/?p=249
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=2787
http://journals.aol.com/rodericklor4/MURDE...ry-graphic./351
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/1.jpg
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/6.jpg

I just can't stand the fact that innocent Lebanese civilians are being killed while the countries that are truly at fault go unpunished.

The real war here is between Israel and Hezbollah, a puppet organization funded by Syria and Iran. Yet, even Israel has not faced the daily hardships that plague the Lebanese people from day to day.

As I can see it, there are three ways this conflict can end.

1. Either the UN or some other international organization works towards a ceasefire (unlikely to happen, given the fact that the Security Council just indefinitely suspended ceasefire talks).

2. Israel wins through exercising their military might (very likely, given the casualty discrepancy between the two sides).

3. Iran or Syria step in to aid Hezbollah, making the conflict consume the Middle East (extremely unlikely, given that both countries don't want that kind of international dispute).

And no matter what happens, the damage caused to the country of Lebanon will be irreparable. Not only have lives been lost, much of the infrastructure of Lebanon will be damaged. Bridges gone and airstrips damaged. That is their future.

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Originally Posted by seenoevil

I am in no way trying to provoke the sensibilities of the people on this board, but I believe when we start talking about war abstractly and not deal with the actual truth of the matter we are minimalizing our own humanism and turning this conflict into a game-situation. I believe pictures speak louder than words and I will warn you that they're very graphic. Here are some photos of the aftermath of Israel attacks:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle14180.htm
http://www.daraghmcg.org/2006/07/30/whats-going-on/
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/?p=249
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=2787
http://journals.aol.com/rodericklor4/MURDE...ry-graphic./351
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/1.jpg
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/6.jpg
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I am a humanist too and every innocent human death is a tragedy. However you cannot have the one without the other.

Those pictures show only 1 side of the Truth: My family's Northern Israëli Hometown is burning and reduced to rubble....I haven't seen pictures of that? But my family told me what had happened. My aunt, uncle and cousin had to pack their stuff and they moved to my Cousin (Their oldest Daughter) who lives in Tel Aviv.
My family and 100s of other innocent Israëli Inhabitants of Northern Israël with them.

How come these atrocities are CENCORED? The Western Media is VERY VERY Subjective. Example:

I saw a Dutch Lebanese girl on the News yersterday saying she was WITH Hizbollah and that Hizbollah doesn't shoot at Children and woman....Well What I just told you about what happened to my family Indenieably contradicts these lies.

Hizbollah do not only use their own people as a ''PR-Shield'' but also UN: They fired Missiles from behind a UNbuilding. The Resulting Israëli Returned Fire led to further Anti-Israël Sentiment: Hizbollah delibertely does this.

And theb attrocity in Qana was also appointed to ''The Jews'' I know the Israëli airforce targetted a Hizbollah building in Qana round 24:00 / 1:00.

The Reported Bloodbath took place round 8 o'clock next Morning and survivors said it was raining mortars and missiles: Mortars and Missiles? They are Hizbollah Weaponry. Just SUPPOSE the targetted building was known to Israëli intelligence to be a Hizbollah Weapons Depot: They bombed it...It caught fire, and that fire Ignited The 1000s of Hizbollah Katchusha Mortars and Missiles some hours later, Killing many many Civilians of Qana.


No instead people believe Israël is just randomly destroying and killing in South-Lebanon. Try and look further into the Truth if you REALLY want to know hat happened there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seenoevil

I am in no way trying to provoke the sensibilities of the people on this board, but I believe when we start talking about war abstractly and not deal with the actual truth of the matter we are minimalizing our own humanism and turning this conflict into a game-situation. I believe pictures speak louder than words and I will warn you that they're very graphic. Here are some photos of the aftermath of Israel attacks:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle14180.htm
http://www.daraghmcg.org/2006/07/30/whats-going-on/
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/?p=249
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=2787
http://journals.aol.com/rodericklor4/MURDE...ry-graphic./351
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/1.jpg
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/wp.../2006/07/6.jpg
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You show the pictures of Lebanon, and while I will admit these are terrible pictures, I could easily find pictures of devastation in Israel too, and have seen plenty of tapes of destruction. Now I'll admit there is less devastation in Israel, but like SKA, I too have relatives near Qiriat Shemonah, the target of most rockets. Kaytyushas are innacurate, and have hit Kibbutzim rather close to where my family is. They are living almost constantly in the bomb shelter or the safety room, as the rockets fall mere kilometers away. I also have relatives in Haifa, one of which was working when 250 meters away, a Kassam rocket crashed into the harbor. Lebanon may get damaged more, but Israel isn't coming out unharmed either. There are two sides to everything.

You probably heard about the 3 story building that was bombed by Israel, which collapsed killing over 50 people in the basement, causing world-wide anger. What you probably didn't here was that before that, Hezballah fired Kaytyushas at Israel from that location, and Israel retaliated with an airstrike. They didn't know they would kill all those people in the basement, most of which didn't deserve in the least bit to die like that, they were just trying to kill the terrorists there. Now Hezbollah says they never fired kaytyushas from that location, making the world angrier, but the truth is that they DID. I saw on Israeli news, the surveillance tapes released by the Israeli army, which, using infrared cameras, caught Hezbollah in the action of firing the Kaytyushas from right next to that building. Hezbollah knew about those people in there, and they fired from that location anyways, so that when Israel retaliated, innocent civilians would die, causing a humanitarian crisis. There are two sides to everything.

I am not saying everything Israel does is right, or everything Hezbollah does is wrong. Before the fighting began, Hezbollah built schools and homes, and hospitals, which is great, and if they just did that, I would be a fan. But no, at the same time they stocked up, with help from syria and iran, over 13,000 rockets, tons of ammunition, weapons, everything needed to do damage, which they are now using against Israel, using innocent civilians, including young children, as shields, so that the world gets mad at Israel, and that, in my opinion outweighs the good they have done. There are two sides to everything.

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I read in PenguinLord's post you are one of those denying the Holocaust?[/b]

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A little off topic. I have not read the entire thread, because, frankly, I haven't got anything worth saying about the current conflict (as I do not read the media a whole lot), but if anyone actually denies the Holocaust then I am concerned. I have seen a few people like that before and fail to see how they can manage to just pretend millions of deaths never happened, so some whacko conspiracy theory or another makes sense to themselves.

History is there to learn from our mistakes, and the Holocaust was one of the biggest mistakes I can think of. The Holocaust was a big reason for fighting in the World War. The Holocaust, frankly, can stand in history as a testament to how overwhelmingly stupid the human race is able to be when a figure like Hitler and the Nazi party comes along and gets us all riled up. It's not something you compare actions to lightly and it's not something you dismiss like a piece of flimsy news either.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I just really hope this that isn't a sentiment the general public holds. I wouldn't like the world to need another Holocaust just so people can learn their lesson again.

Maybe nobody in here believes the Holocaust never happened, but I still feel it's an imporant enough subject to be defended vehlemently when need be.

Try as I could, I could not find any pictures of the Israel devastation on the internet. Israel isn't allowing photos of their casualties to circulate out of "respect" for the dead...(since when is being dead respectful). I'm not trying to say Israel hasn't been affected by this conflict, but that Israel will be able to pull through at the end of all this fighting whereas Lebanon will be set back twenty years with no help from Israel in terms of reconstruction.

PenguinLord, I understand the feelings you must be having since you have family in Israel, but I can't accept the fact that Israel should be allowed to protect herself at other people's expense. The method so far targeting Hezbollah areas has been erroneous and with too many innocent Lebanese civilians caught in the crossfire. Some may say "well, that's just the cost of war" but looking through the vast amounts of photos of the carnage I don't see how we can continue thinking in a frame of mind which allows Israel to continue these mindless retaliations.

SKA, I don't think Israel are getting pleasure from all the innocent civilians that are being killed. I just assume that the way they are trying to kill Hezbollah fighters is a campaign of blind bombing in the hopes that some of them will die. Hezbollah is ridiculous and barbaric as well, but the carnage inflicted upon Lebanon is not in proportion to the actions of a group that doesn't speak for the average Lebanese citizen.

There needs to be a ceasefire and a progression towards a mindframe of a truce on both sides. Unrealistic, for sure, but I choose to believe that we can live in a world where differences can be solved without violence (in fact, it saddens me that this last sentence feels naive even typing it).

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Originally Posted by SKA

Hizbollah do not only use their own people as a ''PR-Shield'' but also UN: They fired Missiles from behind a UNbuilding. The Resulting Israëli Returned Fire led to further Anti-Israël Sentiment: Hizbollah delibertely does this.
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So your one of the people who actually believes that stroy? I mean sure it makes sense at first untill you realize that it doesn't matter if they where "behind" a UN buildings or not because theres no such thing as "behind". The story is total bull.

They can fly a gunship over the building and hit hizbollah without hitting the buildings. They can be very careful with their mortar fire and shoot over the building and hit hizbollah and not the building. Instead they took out the buildings and who knows if they got hizbollah or not, infact they may not have even been there. How do we know? All we can tell is from their own mouth hizbollah was using the UN building as a shield while all of their weapons could have shot over the building. They would have to actually be inside, or leaning up against the wall both which are very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Kaniaz

A little off topic. I have not read the entire thread, because, frankly, I haven't got anything worth saying about the current conflict (as I do not read the media a whole lot), but if anyone actually denies the Holocaust then I am concerned. I have seen a few people like that before and fail to see how they can manage to just pretend millions of deaths never happened, so some whacko conspiracy theory or another makes sense to themselves.

History is there to learn from our mistakes, and the Holocaust was one of the biggest mistakes I can think of. The Holocaust was a big reason for fighting in the World War. The Holocaust, frankly, can stand in history as a testament to how overwhelmingly stupid the human race is able to be when a figure like Hitler and the Nazi party comes along and gets us all riled up. It's not something you compare actions to lightly and it's not something you dismiss like a piece of flimsy news either.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I just really hope this that isn't a sentiment the general public holds. I wouldn't like the world to need another Holocaust just so people can learn their lesson again.

Maybe nobody in here believes the Holocaust never happened, but I still feel it's an imporant enough subject to be defended vehlemently when need be.
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Still, however, I don't think that the Holocaust should be any kind of badge of pity for the Israelis. We're a new generation now. There is no denying that the Holocaust did happen, or that it was the worst atrocity of the 20th century, but times have changed. It's time to shake off the past and face the future.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Of course the holocaust happened

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But where is the History?

German Law forbids any research.

What passes for History is legal assertion from the Nuremburg Trials. And Lawyers are liars.

Yes, 20 million people probably did die. But whether or not there was a "Holocaust" depends upon why they died. Was there a deliberate plan to murder these people? Or did they starve because the English Fleet embargoed all of Continental Europe and restricted the delivery of any foodstuff, when Europe, for decades had depended upon food imports to feed itself. And America had supported that Embargo.

Were 20 million killed or did 20 million people starve? There is a difference.

Now, if there was an intentional Holocaust perpetrated by Germany who was in total control of Europe for 6 years, then why were the deaths so scattered, and why so many survivors. If the Holocaust had been a systematic program, then everyone would have been killed.

In Camps where there was planned killing, one can argue that there was notification that Food Deliveries were being suspended... not out of cruelty or malicious intent, but only because there was no longer any food to deliver -- that Churchill and Roosevelt had been successful in their 'Sanctions'. To forestall Food Riots and needless suffering, death was imposed as a kind of euthanasia.

So, until we can get any real History, the Holocaust as an intentional program to specifically target the Jews seems like just an exercise in Public Relations that helps to justify modern Zionist Aggressions. And in that regard, the Holocaust now brought down upon the Palestinian People DOES pass Historical Review.

Ok Leo, if so many people "starved to death", then why the hell were so many of them jews and other minorities, and so few of them the Nazis who were also at those camps. You are being ridiculous, and people who believe this kind of crap are what cause history to repeat itself by making people forget what really happened. There were survivors because some were lucky and didn't die upon getting shot, or managed to escape, or instead of being killed were forced to work as slaves, or just got pure lucky, and got rescued by the russians or other countries fighting germany before the germans had a chance to turn on the gas. Yes, this happened to a relative of mine. She was in the chamber about to be gassed when the russians came and liberated the camp she was at.

Just something to think of, they had a good 3 or 4 years of total control, more than enough time to kill anyone you want to. All the examples you just gave wouldn't explain more than like 100 combined and are very unlikely. Except for them being sent to a work camp, which is plausible but then that would also help Leos argument as well. Because if they sent most people to work camps and then people died from hunger thats pretty close to what he was saying.

Also to put it into perspective, 60 million people died in ww2, and well over half of them were civilians.

Thought this article was interesting so I just decided to throw it in here. No particular reason, really.

(Time) Why the Middle East Crisis Isn't Really About Terrorism

Thank you PenguinLord13 for complimenting my reply I did put a lot of thought into it and I didn't want to sound abhorrent. This subject is very sensitive to the point where arousing strong feelings of repugnance or disapproval toward one another could take this entire thread from a debate to an all out argument in the blink of an eye. So I decided to give more of an unbiased approach thanks a lot guys.
You guys have also displayed some very thought provoking and extremely deep responses and I see an abundance of sheer intelligence from you two. Keep it rocking and I look forward to checking out more of you guys comments throughout the forum.