Germs

So I was at this family reunion and we were having a barbecue at a park. I'm sitting next to my aunt and the whole time she is fanning her hand over her food to keep flies away, even when there are none close by.
Eventually, a fly lands on her burger when she's not looking. When she sees it, she shoos the fly away, and actually breaks off the section of her bread that the fly landed on.

So...I got to thinking....what's the big deal about "germs?"

I mean, in America (and I'm assuming many other parts of the world) we are pretty much bred to be germophobes. (for lack of the actual word) Everything here is "anitbacterial" this, and "Kills 99.999999999 and 3/4 germs" that. Most families teach their kids that "if something falls on the floor, at the dinner table, it's no longer edible," because of "germs."

My question is "Why?"

I mean, don't get me wrong, cleanliness is a good thing, to certain extents, but isn't fighting off "germs" what we have an immune system for?

Doesn't the in-your-face pushing of antibacterials on the public undermine the immune system, itself, leaving us to much more easily contract illness when we are without those products because of an underworked immune system?

People that are constantly cleaning their homes (I mean obsessively constant), especially if they have kids, are not giving their kids' immune systems anything to work with. No reason to strengthen or evolve. They are relying on the bottled antibacterials to pre-empt exposure to anything. Isn't that harmful to society?

So I'm curious, what do you guys think about germs? Do you do everything you can to avoid them? Do you not care about them at all, in any quantity? Are you undecided? What?

I grew up in a house with a mother who didn't feel the need to make sure that everything was clean when she cooked. I eat three hour room temperature food all the time. Hell, I eat rare burgers (As long as I can somewhat trust the source). The only real time I remember getting sick was when I moved to Florida, and I'd say that's just because of different germs that my body didn't recognize. Otherwise, my immune system seems pretty top notch... Damn. Jinxed myself.

Can I ask... Was the lady also eating sun warmed, mayonnaise based potato salad? Was the guy cooking the burgers petting the family dog?

I don't think that I have to explain my point, buuuut, you need to be exposed to germs for your body to build its immunity to them. It's like those damned hand sanitizer things. The germs are building immunities to our chemicals and getting stronger.

- -Barrett

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Originally posted by Oneironaut+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Oneironaut)</div>

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Doesn't the in-your-face pushing of antibacterials on the public undermine the immune system, itself, leaving us to much more easily contract illness when we are without those products because of an underworked immune system? [/b]

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Yep, exactly. In fact I just recently read about a study that proves exactly that.

Sorry for the length of this, but George Carlin did a routine about this very thing, many years ago:

<!--QuoteBegin-George Carlin
Where did this sudden fear of germs come from in this country? Have you noticed this? The media constantly running stories about all the latest infections? Salmonella, E-coli, hanta virus, bird flu, and Americans will panic easily so everybody's running around scrubbing this and spraying that and overcooking their food and repeatedly washing their hands, trying to avoid all contact with germs. It's ridiculous and it goes to ridiculous lengths. In prisons, before they give you lethal injection, they swab your arm with ALCOHOL. Wouldn't want some guy to go to hell AND be sick.

Fear of germs, why these fuckin' pussies. You can't even get a decent hamburger anymore they cook the shit out of everything now 'cause everyone's afraid of FOOD POISONING! Hey, wheres you sense of adventure? Take a fuckin' chance will you? Hey you know how many people die of food poisoning in this country? Nine thousand, thats all, its a minor risk. Take a fuckin' chance bunch of goddamn pussies.

Besides, what d'ya think you have an immune system for? It's for killing germs! But it needs practice, it needs germs to practice on. So if you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you're not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit?! I'll tell you what your gonna do ... you're gonna get sick. You're gonna die and your gonna deserve it because you're fucking weak and you got a fuckin' weak immune system!

Let me tell you a true story about immunization ok. When I was a little boy in New York city in the nineteen-forties, we swam in the Hudson river. And it was filled with raw sewage! OK? We swam in raw sewage, you know, to cool off. And at that time the big fear was polio. Thousands of kids died from polio every year. But you know something? In my neighborhood no one ever got polio. No one! EVER! You know why? Cause WE SWAM IN RAW SEWAGE! It strengthened our immune system, the polio never had a prayer. We were tempered in raw shit!

So personally I never take any precautions against germs. I don't shy away from people who sneeze and cough. I don't wipe off the telephone, I don't cover the toilet seat, and if I drop food on the floor I pick it up and eat it!

Even if I'm at side walk cafe!

IN CALCUTTA!

THE POOR SECTION!

ON NEW YEARS MORNING DURING A SOCCER RIOT!

And you know something? In spite of all the so called "risky behavior ".... I never get infections. I don't get em. I don't get colds, I don't get flu, I don't get headaches, I don't get upset stomach, And you know why? Cause I got a good strong immune system! And it gets a lot of practice!

My immune system is equipped with the biological equivalent of fully automatic military assault rifles, with night vision and laser scopes. And we have recently acquired phosphorous grenades, cluster bombs and anti personnel fragmentation mines. So, when my white blood cells are on patrol reconnoitering my blood stream seeking out strangers and other undesirables, and if they see any, ANY, suspicious looking germs of any kind, THEY DON'T. FUCK. AROUND. They whip out the weapons, they wax the motherfucker and deposit the unlucky fellow directly into my colon! Into my colon. There's no nonsense! There's no miranda warning, there's none of that three strikes and your out bullshit. First defense, BAM! Into the colon you go!

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If something drops on the floor and you pick it up to throw it away do you wash your hands after? If you don't then you might as well have ate. Actually how many people wash their hands before they eat? I would say about 80-90% of the people don't. And it doesn't matter what your doing, if you touched anything in the last 8 hours you need to wash your hands.

So people can say they are avoiding germs all they want but they probably are not avoiding much at all. I think what effects people are things that are outright bad for you. You can assume everything has germs but if you know something has 10000 times the normal amount you don't want to eat it.

You know, I've been thinking about this off and on lately, mainly because I've been working at schools all summer. I wouldn't call myself a germiphobe, but I've been more aware of what I touch and where I've been.

I carry around the antibacterial gel, but I've also been working with computers and phones that haven't been cleaned since they were given to the teachers! There's all this black gunk that's just built up on the keys, and the ear wax clogs the holes in the handset (as well as makeup) and gets on the holder where the handset goes. It really is gross and I wonder how these teachers can use or allow their students to use these when they're plainly sticky and black. But I guess it's really something that people don't think about. How often do you think about cleaning your phone?

It makes me wonder, though, if people wash their hands after going to the bathroom as often as when they touch their pets. Who knows what your dog's been rolling in, even if you don't see the junk on their coat?

I guess I just wanted to throw this out there. I can't really think of a whole lot to add.

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Wouldn't want some guy to go to hell AND be sick. [/b]

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Wow. That was pretty much amazing.

Actually I think its only about 50% of the population in the US who wash their hands after going to the bathroom. So I wouldn't be saying, if people washed their hands as often as that heh.

Lmfao @ TygrHawk

One of the many reasons I love George Carlin. :chuckle:

And I know what you mean about the phone, Ame. I've worked in so many phone rooms it's ridiculous, so I've seen some of the worst phones you ever want to come in contact with. :neutral:

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Howetzer - Well, the only thing that's really been on my mind, up there is "Why the Hell can't People stay in their Own Damn Lanes, while driving on the highway?!" and since the answers could be either pathological or philosophical, it might just be worthy of a discussion. Hahah.
Been thinking about Germs too. I think I'm really going to start a thread on that one, though.[/b]

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Ha ha ..I knew you couldn't resist. ;)


That is exactly my take for the most part. It is almost like people taking a vaccine to eradicate a disease. We in affect are trying to do a similar thing with antibacterial....well anything now a days.
Some individuals are now choosing to not have their children take the vaccines because they feel it has other health implications (which it may very well) > That could be an entire topic on it's own.
But my point is that in the event that these things unfold as nature usually finds a way to do, we are opening up the flood gates for a possible disaster.
That sounds pretty grim doesn't it? I should write for the evening news! :o

It sounds a bit odd but some germs are healthy for us. They serve a purpose. They feed on each other and destroy others that could also harm us.

I agree and I also question... why do we need antibacterial soaps and lysol cleaning spray NOW? what about back in the day? they never had this crap...

in medieval times they never had to clean anything.. they never formally bathed but once a year, and even then it was recycled water, they crapped wherever they damn well pleased and look humans are still around

well then again they had the black plague but thats probably because their streets were paved in shit and they had dead rats floating everywhere...

But more recently... Indians (native americans) never really had to disinfect something and they turned out alright (until the pilgrims came but thats besides the point), whenever they got sick they used herbal remedies and stuff. And the population was stable.

well I figure anyway antibacterial soap is actually bad for you... it kills 99.99% of germs. Well what about that 00.01%? No they're not just lucky they're the strong ones. And now that the 99.99% percent are gone it leaves more room for the strong ones to multiply. And thats bad.

cleanliness has to do with population and life style - modern societies have a greater need for 'cleanliness' than a tribe living out in the jungle. Look at Japan with its dense population, cleanliness is extremely important. Theyre not germophobic, they have a great need for it.

imagine a tribe in a jungle - they live in a hut with only a thatched roof on top. they don't have to worry about poor air that modern homes have to worry about. the modern home has HORRIBLE air with too much dust, bacteria and the likes. the open hut has open circulation - air comes in air comes out. They dont have to worry about dusty stale air. who do you think develps allergies more? the tribal man? or the modern man??

in the modern home, people DO get sick becuase of the poor air inside of their home. and what do you get? modern air sanitizers................which might be counter productive.

the tribe is just that, a tribe of people. they all know eachother, live together and might even be all related. they share immune systems and germs. but its not like that in the modern society is it? we come into contact with total strangers every day, and many ARE carrying illnessess. the result? we get stomach viruses, flus, headaches and everything else so much more often then our tribal friends in the jungle.

so with that said

is there a big need to wash your hands before eating if you have been home all day? no.

is there a need to wash your hands before eating if you were outisde in mother nature all day? well that depends if you were playing with dog poop..

is there a need to wash your hands before eating if you were on the streets, in public places all day long? if youre not gonna wash your hands you might as eat off of a gasoline station toilet and lick the pavement clean. I for one think people in this scenario who dont wash their hands are dirty, smelly, and from what Ive noticed they have dirt caked under their nails too.......eeeww...... :mad:

wash your hands you dirty monkey! the city streets are dirty nasty with diseases, illnesses, viruses and HARMFUL bacteria. The dirt on which tribes grow on, is clean!

I understand where you are coming from juroara to some degree.
It seems that people over sanitize.
An example is my wife's encounters . She cleans houses. I was talking to her about this discussion last night. She had told me that her two cleanest houses, ones she described as, " You could eat off the floor BEFORE I clean them." They are the people who are always getting sick when they go somewhere. They come in contact with germs that their own immune system never come in contact with.
Schools and day care centers are huge breeding grounds for germs, colds, etc. But you don't see teachers and the like getting sick ever other week or so.

ah ahahaahhh a ahAHHH CHOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! :makeitstop:

just a quick case study:

My mom runs a daycare so I'm exposed to all sorts of horrible diseases like hand foot + mouth, chicken pox, lots of stomach bugs, colds, etc etc etc. I hang out with the kids all the time and I never get sick. I was sick the other day for the first time in months but then I ate some salsa and that fixed me right up. I also have no regard for my health whatsoever. I eat stuff off the ground (if it complies with the 5 second rule of course) and I hang out in the woods all the time, putting things in my body that allegedly weaken your immune system. Well, I don't remember the last time I was sick and on a day to day basis I feel swell.

I like to say "I don't believe in germs" whenever people give me crap about it. I do believe in them, but I don't think it's worth worrying about. I get cut once or twice every day and nothing ever gets infected. Most germs just aren't malignant.

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Originally Posted by Dangeruss

just a quick case study:
My mom runs a daycare so I&#39;m exposed to all sorts of horrible diseases like hand foot + mouth, chicken pox, lots of stomach bugs, colds, etc etc etc. I hang out with the kids all the time and I never get sick. I was sick the other day for the first time in months but then I ate some salsa and that fixed me right up. I also have no regard for my health whatsoever. I eat stuff off the ground (if it complies with the 5 second rule of course) and I hang out in the woods all the time, putting things in my body that allegedly weaken your immune system. Well, I don&#39;t remember the last time I was sick and on a day to day basis I feel swell.
I like to say "I don&#39;t believe in germs" whenever people give me crap about it. I do believe in them, but I don&#39;t think it&#39;s worth worrying about. I get cut once or twice every day and nothing ever gets infected. Most germs just aren&#39;t malignant.
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Damn Dangeruss.
The Governemnt should consider you for Germ warfare. :wink:

"Most germs just aren&#39;t malignant."

But God help you if you catch one rare, mutant, son of a bitch germ that is malignant... :)
You may never know nowadays... Our grandparents were much more healthier and they didn&#39;t wash their hands at all, but those were totally different times.

I hardly ever get sick, and the times I do is 95% because I haven&#39;t been taking care of myself in regards to the amount of sleep I&#39;m getting getting, if I&#39;ve exercised at all, and what I&#39;ve been eating. It&#39;s rare that I catch "what&#39;s been going around" (though I wouldn&#39;t doubt that I start it sometimes).

I was sick on Saturday and was absolutely miserable with flu-like symptoms, and I thought it was the flu, but looking back on the day before and the days before that, I really had loaded my body up with junk, so it was no wonder that it was mad at me. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever had vomiting or nausea for more than 12 hours, where that one lasted from 3am until the time I went to bed (about 8:30pm).

There are worse things than germs out there.... like (delicious) KFC.

that&#39;s true, but their times must have been less sanitary then ours, that&#39;s for sure. Germs may spread faster today but that doesn&#39;t make following the 5 second rule a necessarily bad decision. Anything likely to kill you will probably be brought to you by another person or animal.

Oh and howetzer, the way I figure, if I introduce enough harmless or mostly harmless germs into my system, then I&#39;ll be more likely to survive germ warfare than someone who babies their immune system. Ideally, a germ war will break out sometime soon, and when the population dwindles I&#39;ll be one of the few survivors, and you know what that means. Oh yeah. lots of repopulating, baby. Then the whole world would be more like me, too, which would be swell. And I figure that even if that plan doesn&#39;t work out then I&#39;ll still spend less time sick overall so hooray.

People idea of cleanliness is so bizarre I stopped trying to figure it out….

My beef is with the “Please remove your shoes” BS

I once was invited to a friends house. We were asked to remove our shoes. The evening was going one very badly, I couldn’t stand the smell of some people’s feet. At the end of the evening, I noticed my white socks were black. Why the hell did I remove my shoes for? So this guy would get his floor mopped for free?

A few days later I had minor pain under my foot. A few days later I could not walk anymore. I had contracted a plantar wart and it was now the size of a quarter. I went to the doctor. He asked if I had walked shoeless lately. I told him about the house. The doctor’s words were “Damned these fools and their shoeless houses&#33;”. He also notice athletes foot which I probably also contracted there. It took 6 weeks to rid of the plantar wart. I still have the athletes foot.

So, when I was asked to remove my shoes in a work place no less (Can‘t these freaks leave there freakiness at home?), I replied with “Listen, I wouldn’t have sex without a condom. I surely would not walk in this place unprotected”. Looking at all the sweaty foot prints on the floor, You can’t help but wonder why someone would invent such a “tradition”. I’ll keep my clean dry shoes and keep my athletes foot to myself thank you.

well its asian tradition

in 7th grade I visited countless asian people&#39;s houses (almost all of my friends were asian, we made movies together) and every single one of them asked us to remove our shoes

I never contracted a disease

and surprisingly my socks never got that dirty

I was a little less comfortable in PE over the summer, we had to go into the boys wrestling room (sweaty mats, the room smelled like BO, you gotta love it) and we had to wear only socks. Then when we were doing the shuttle run (requires acceleration, and stopping really fast) our teams were pressuring us to take off our socks for more traction... ugh.... I hate peer pressure. I washed my feet as soon as I got home

but in public, I understand what you&#39;re saying, everyone should wear shoes in public places. PERIOD. no exceptions.

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Originally Posted by potato

well its asian tradition

in 7th grade I visited countless asian people&#39;s houses (almost all of my friends were asian, we made movies together) and every single one of them asked us to remove our shoes

I never contracted a disease

and surprisingly my socks never got that dirty

I was a little less comfortable in PE over the summer, we had to go into the boys wrestling room (sweaty mats, the room smelled like BO, you gotta love it) and we had to wear only socks. Then when we were doing the shuttle run (requires acceleration, and stopping really fast) our teams were pressuring us to take off our socks for more traction... ugh.... I hate peer pressure. I washed my feet as soon as I got home

but in public, I understand what you&#39;re saying, everyone should wear shoes in public places. PERIOD. no exceptions.
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In public&#33; I mean, some people go too far&#33;

I have asian friends too. At least the floors are clean with them.

I hear you with the wshing up there. I am surprisingly a messy person and have no quarel with germs exept for the feet thing. I also had a bad experience with an undercooked burger (Don&#39;t want that ever again). I guess our phobias are usually based on our experience.

My point was this guy&#39;s place had dirty wooden floors. I mean come on, he didn&#39;t think about what he was asking. Plus, one of the friends I was with has legendary foot odor (The kind that would drown a skunk) which our guess was fully aware of. His floors would have dirtied up my shoes more than the other way around. Sweet revenge though, our guess informed me a few days later that the foot odor was still lingering in the house. His parents were asking him all kinds of questions about it. "I warned you", I rememinded him.

I have a sister who insists on making us remove our shoes when we visit (Never has been a tradition in our familly). While she parades in her "in house" shoes. She says it&#39;s to keep the dirt out (She doesn&#39;t know the difference between dirt and dust I guess). One day I pointed to her that her shoes were more dirty than mine. An argument insued on how more dirty my shoes where because the dust on the soles was outdoor dust and, therefore, dirtier. I pointed out the indoor dust usually comes from outside through the windows and stuff.

When she came for a visit, I made her (and only her) take off her shoes while the rest of us kept our shoes on. She did not bring her "in house" shoes as she thought she would not need them. Next time we went to visit her, she got the point and did not ask us to remove our shoes (ever again).

I thought about this pretty recently. And I think it could probably be pretty worrying in a way. Just like those hand sanitizers - you know, kills 99.99% of all germs, but down there in that microscopic meledy of bacteria that doesn&#39;t mean squat. There&#39;s probably billions of germs and killing "99% of them" leaves you with still a whole lot - a few million - that can easily divide and get their numbers back up, especially since you&#39;ve made a ton of real estate for the little guys by killing their (presumably weaker) competitors. Great&#33; Let&#39;s speed up natural selection and create ourselves a few superbugs (like MRSA in British hospitals here, etc). I couldn&#39;t think of a better way to make life easier for bacteria.

In a way I guess aversion to germs is a good thing. If there&#39;s a super-influenza out there like the media keeps promising us, that kills almost all of those infected by it, it&#39;s going to be in your best interests to keep away from anyone who&#39;s got a case of the sniffles. And your rock hard constitution won&#39;t help you if you&#39;re having sex with someone HIV-positive. In those situations, preventing yourself from being inoculated is the best cure.

Even so I pretty much agree. Unless I&#39;m missing something catastrophically big here, abusing the hand sanitizer is a bad thing. It speeds up evolution and makes that &#39;superbug&#39; much more likely to happen. Couple this with people who avoid anything that&#39;s even vaugely "germy" - toliet seats, raw burgers, you name it - and you&#39;re paving the way for the bubonic plague revamped.

Sometimes, though, the idea of having a bacteria/virus growing inside you and violating your bodies soveriginity can be unsettling. That and eating your food around someone sneezing out rivers of mucus isn&#39;t exactly my idea of fun.

PS: There is a nice article about why they clean up a convict&#39;s arm before adminstering the injection I recall reading. It&#39;s not just about our bacterial buddies, apparently.
PPS: The five second rule is wrong. Germs tend to &#39;stick&#39; to your food on contact (i.e. when the food hits the floor). They don&#39;t "crawl" onto your burger, candy or Christmas turkey. That would take a long time and a lot of crawling. So did your dog do a doody on that floor earlier? Yeah. I&#39;ll leave that up to you.

Normally people who say take your shoes off keep their house very clean. I know some people who are cleaning their house every day. Then I know people who clean their house once a month, then people who almost never clean.

Taking your shoes off shouldn&#39;t be a problem. If your socks turn black that person is a total pig though.

CNN: Are Germs Good for Children&#39;s Health?
I&#39;m with George Carlin and the doctors on this one: exposure to germs is necessary to build a healthy immune system. If you&#39;re not exposed to a germ, you cannot develop an immunity to it. Simple. And with the over-abundance of "antibacterial" personal and kitchen products, we&#39;re only accelerating the natural mutation of bacteria - making them stronger competitors against our bodies&#39; natural defenses.

Personally, I only wear shoes and socks when it&#39;s too cold to go without, am more likely to obey the 5 second rule when the landing surface is the grass than when it&#39;s a kitchen floor (my guess is the grass is cleaner), and use non-anti-bacterial handsoap in my bathroom and kitchen. Scrubbing with regular soap is sufficient remove the oil and grime to which bacteria and viruses cling without aiding and abetting in the strengthening of the germy genetic gene pool.

Take your vitamins, get exercise and sleep, and in all likelihood, you&#39;ll be healthier than those pale germophobes who carry five bottles of hand sani in their purses or pockets and have the (seemingly) spottless kitchens.

Yup @ Peregrinus. Saw that story on CNN a couple months ago (co-incidentally only Seconds after questioning the severity of germs for the very first time.) Never saw the article, though, so thanks for posting it because that&#39;s exactly where I&#39;m coming from. :goodjob2:

In Canada, there was a very serious warning from hospital physicians about the real risks of antibacterial household products creating super bugs. That was like 10 years ago when such products started to emerge. The was a proposed ban on the agenda. 10 years later these products are all over and used by everyone. Funny thing is a friend of mine whose a germophobe who agreed with the idea of banning the potentially dangerous products is now using these products. I guess she finally succumbed to the commercials.

Hospitals are getting worried about their regular bacterial killing products being less efficient. Takes 3 days instead of one to cure an infection. They blame these products.

But then they turn around and do something like this:
In Canada there was this SARS Virus scare. The Hospitals’ way of dealing with preventing the infestation to spread was to force everyone who entered the premises to use this Antibacterial Gel Agent that kills 99.9% of bacteria. I was squirting the product on my hands when it hit me. SARS is a virus, not a bacteria. What kind of useless propaganda is that?