Past, Present, Future... The Eternal 'now'

**Cyclic13** · 09-11-2006 09:50 PM

Edit: After this thread, I made a song about this idea. If you have the time, listen to 'Eternal Now' after clicking the SolSkye link in my signature

Well, This idea has always been fleeting and coming back to my mind for many years now so I thought I'd freely write about it and let people talk about it more, if interested.

Time is an idea we always like to define, but why exactly?

What is time other than man's way to describe changes in the universe?
As seen here...

If all previous events and changes in the "past" can be explained by reviewing past data leading up to that event, couldn't we somehow be able to essentially see where (a) certain variable(s) would be in the "future"? If so, wouldn't that make the "future" predetermined?

The reason I bring this up is because many a time I've had Deja-vu's which last longer than the common 2-3 second ones but rather 2-3 minutes, in which I can understand and see the actions of all those around me (myself included) to an always scary and uncomfortable degree. The best way I can describe the overall feeling is, like looking into a mirror, of a mirror, of a mirror where it continues towards infinity but on a physical level. You can see yourself, noticing your future self, noticing your future self, noticing future others. In turn, what you and other people are going to do, say, and go in that time, which prevents you from acting in the 'Now'. Simply put, you understand too much to function properly. You pretty much become a variable of the "time" formula thrown into that mirror, then you become broken down to this idea of awareness to that "time", standing outside of "time" looking into that mirror for however much of that "time" you were allotted in the Deja-vu. (I hope I haven't lost you, here's a pic and quote of what I mean)

Sidenote: I know you may find this 2-3minute Deja-vu idea hard to believe so heres the thread describing one experience in detail:
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/index.php?...c=21422&hl=

After a few times of that I was convinced we have no REAL free will. Now you may beg to differ as I did time and time again but after seeing things like that I think there could be no other possible outcome then the one we have right now. I heard that scientists can follow reality throughout it's entirety as it expands outwardly from The Big Bang to nearly no energy through entropy, and then collapse back in on itself. As to what will happen after retreating back in on itself is anyone's' guess. The logical guess is, that it would just do another Big Bang and repeat that for all eternity, essentially becoming a perpetual infinity symbol of expansion and contraction of the same chemical reaction, of which we are obviously included.

Recently, I was thinking about free will, paradoxical time shifts and how we could possibly exist in other time lines simulteneously where something we decided to do, say, etc. is different (ie. going with our gut instinct about something instead of ignoring it), some would say it re-instills free will, but I dont. If you think it would, you'd be forgetting the idea of infinity which is pretty impossible concept to grasp but, if you were to take that eternally repeating infinity symbol of expansion and contraction and then change the path ever-so slightly (symbolizing a different choice/event made) each time the universe expanded and contracted, you would get a Spirograph. A Spirograph is a curve formed by rolling a circle inside or outside of another circle. Most of us did it when we were young. The pen is placed at any point on the rolling circle and you repeat the pattern changing ever-so slightly.

That would mean you have already chosen all possible choices you could've ever made in all possible realities, an infinite amount of times, making right "Now" inevitable, stuck eternally on repeat. Therefore, making all "Past", "Present", and "Future" events eternal. Basically, We co-exist in the "Now" with anything that is, was, could, or ever be...

I would say
It's most like the buddhist idea of "Zen"... or "moment by moment awareness"

Here's what the infinity expansion contraction with almost all possible choices would look like... What I call the Eternal 'Now'

Just an idea floating around in my head at 6AM with no sleep... what do you think?

**Neo Neo** · 09-12-2006 06:16 PM

Nice explanation! I'm one that agrees with that theory of everything already being predetermined, and life having a "plan". I have no evidence to support my views its merely my opinion.

But if any of you have ever read Kurt Vonnegut's book "Slaughter-house Five"then you will know the Tralfamadorian view of time and life. They see things in four dimensions, and intstead of seeing the "linear" perception of time we do, they can see the past, present, and future. instead of trying to prevent their own faults, they already know whats fated to happen, so they dont bother with changing anything. they accept everything that has happened, is happening, and is going to happen because it is the way things are supposed to happen. Now im not sure if the author intended it to relate specifically to metaphysics or theories of life, but it sure does to me.

Aside from that example, i think that life has a "plan" , a way things are supposed to happen. That means that everything that happens is meant to happen, will happen, and has happened. Metaphysically speaking, the "Now"you speak of in your last post, is something i would define as a "Moment" although its composed of the past, present, and future all happening at once. but each moment of your life is always happening, wether they are in the past or future or present. there is a place in the astral plane, the akashic records, and if by chance it is visited it has everything that has happened and will happen in all of your previous lives and our current one now.

The moment we are in now is themost we can become attuned to time without the use of meditation.

For me, i tend to think we have some choice, but then again "choice"is just an illusion because my idea is that everything already has a destiny. we live and we do things, make decisions, and we do mostly for reasons. we have reasons to do things. for example, if you miss your bus for school, you'll have to get a ride from someone else. another example, you were late for a job interview so they didnt admit you. i have a theory about life, and it is that forces beyond our control force us to make certain choices, or at least influence us. wether consciously or unconsciously.

With that being said, i dont go around thinking about why i did things, or what i could've done had something not happen. i just accept them. if something can be changed, its supposed to be changed. if something cant be changed, then no matter what you do, it will not be changed. if you are supposed to learn a life lesson of some sort, then other circumstances will come into play.

The idea of the universe constantly spreading out as pointed in the last post is new to me, but these are some thoughts on the "mechanics of life"off the top of my head.

**Howie** · 09-17-2006 02:33 PM

Some deep stuff in there.
As the discussion lengthens, I would like to share more of an opinion on the Deja-vu idea.
I have never heard of a Deja-vu experience to be this long.
However time as I see it is only an experience. An experience that we label as past present and future.
There is only the now happening as far as our cognitive approach to time in our experience.

Time has specific laws that are governed. Time dilation does occur. This gives rise to the possibility of the illusory state that we sometimes perceive time. As we think of past, a memory. The Future, a preemptive thought or idea. And now. Our streaming line of consciousness perceiving what it can, at an often very misleading view on how it is rendered in our thoughts.
You could go almost as far to say as time does not even exist if there is only now. That being if it was only our minds way of seeing time. As we know that is not the case.

So there can rise many theories of predetermination, multiple universes and the like.
This obviously would lead to a plethora of new and intriguing ideas.

Much more to discuss.

**Neruo** · 09-17-2006 04:39 PM

Intresting theory.

First the 'no free will' part:
I agree on that. There isn't really a free will. Everything that happens is just like a bunch of domino stones falling against each other, knocking over others. The universe is many, many times more complicated, but with a computer that is to complicated and probably big to build, and maybe even a phisically impossible computer, hypothetically you Could predict the future. Only there are so many parameters and variables that it is impossible to actually do, but as long as it is theoretically possible you could indeed say: 'There is no real free will'.

On the 'Everything is now' thingy:
I allso agree alot. I thought about this too. I think it might even be possible that every different possibility for a universe has a diferent universe/demention. So all things that are possible are happening in a way. If you save that little bunny rabbit from death, in another universe it died. And again in another universe it was green. And in another universe the cardiovascular patterns in his brain looked exactly like a drawing of hilter with a french-maid costume on.

If everything really 'allready' happend (time is a disputable thing) then nothing really matters. I kind of like that idea becouse it fits my own nihilistic idea that all human values hold no objective value becouse they are created by mankind itself.

-

Basicly I agree with you. Only I see the 'everything is now' thingy as a 'every possible universe exists (allways/timeless)' thingy. (Time passing is just a switching of universes.)

(One last unrelated point: In my theory travelling backwards in time would be possible in a way... so many it is just a wrong theory becouse I strongly oppose the possiblity that timetravel (backwards) is possible,,)

**irishcream** · 09-18-2006 08:45 PM

hmm...i get deja vu two or three times a week...

I wonder, if its not because life is all mapped out for us, but because some of the variables in our daily lives are so repetitive...

the best example being going to work and talking to your colleagues. I do that most days. And often i think 'i've had this conversation before....'

but, is that because i've done the same thing so many times without thinking, my brain has shelved it and i've forgotten, only for it to resurface when something triggers it, like an event or a topic of conversation??

I've had Deja vu since i was a kid.

and that's how i've explained it as i've got older...

**TheNocturnalGent** · 09-19-2006 08:32 AM

So many differnt theorys and topics within this topic. Im jsut gonna touch upon one of them which is the theory of a universe that expandsand contracts over and over for infinity in the same way. This is what is most commonly used totoday to explain the possibility of traveling back in time, if you would want to call it that,, what you are actually doing (if ever possible) WOULD BE TO REMOVE YOURSELF FROm OUR KNOWN UNIVERSe AND TO TRAVEL FOREWARD IN TIME (UGH CAPS) until time repeats itself again. Personally i find this to be the most likely theory. And i do beleive that the univers expands and contracts in this way and that we are not much more than chemical reactions that began at the begining of the cycle only to become what we are now, but there is no real way to know so ya may as well make the best of what you have.

**Cyclic13** · 09-19-2006 04:32 PM

I dont think there would be a way to truly remove yourself from our known universe because any hole/rip/tear or similar ability to do such would obviously be something that was done within means attainable of this universe thus by association connecting it to the known universe....in essence, making it a part of that known universe.

kinda like the idea of absolute zero... There is no possible way to be at zero because everything is somehow in contact or touching something with energy.

**Howie** · 09-20-2006 12:02 AM

Next year will be a big year for science. The name of the device escapes me right now. However once it is put into action the theory is it will be able to point out other universes. Other universes with possibly their own laws and principles.
With that in mind, if there are multiple universes...some 10 to the 500th power, may bring on entirelty new concepts. New laws, Ideas thoughts that change our perception of "universe"
Anything we can conceptualize, then we could potential also be part of. ahhh just a theory of my own.

I will get more info on that.

sj · 09-22-2006 03:44 AM

I like to think that I have free will. I've debated the topic in my head a few times, but I keep getting stuck on the issue of choice. The best example I think is of flipping a coin. I hold the coin in my hand. At that moment in time, several possibilities exist, but let's just narrow it down to two: I could choose to flip the coin, and I could choose not to. Ultimately, only one of the outcomes is going to occur, and as such one could say that that choice has already been determined. However, it still remains that both options exist until I eliminate one or the other by choosing. In this way I can understand the view of destiny, because we have to decide on something eventually, choosing one of many possible outcomes and eliminating the others. However, I believe that there is also the argument for there being some very likely outcomes, but does not necessarily mean that it will come to pass. For example, say I make a meal for myself. The most likely course of action would be for me to eat it, but until I do, I still have the choice. And that's why I believe in free will. I look forward to hearing responses to this.

**TheNocturnalGent** · 09-22-2006 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by sj

I like to think that I have free will. I've debated the topic in my head a few times, but I keep getting stuck on the issue of choice. The best example I think is of flipping a coin. I hold the coin in my hand. At that moment in time, several possibilities exist, but let's just narrow it down to two: I could choose to flip the coin, and I could choose not to. Ultimately, only one of the outcomes is going to occur, and as such one could say that that choice has already been determined. However, it still remains that both options exist until I eliminate one or the other by choosing. In this way I can understand the view of destiny, because we have to decide on something eventually, choosing one of many possible outcomes and eliminating the others. However, I believe that there is also the argument for there being some very likely outcomes, but does not necessarily mean that it will come to pass. For example, say I make a meal for myself. The most likely course of action would be for me to eat it, but until I do, I still have the choice. And that's why I believe in free will. I look forward to hearing responses to this.

[/b]

statistics 105? nothing has 0% probability and nothing has 100% probability. I agree completely. As far as we have evolved we still have no means of proving somthing 100%

**Cyclic13** · 09-22-2006 01:56 PM

Well, as I stated before, everything, at it's most basic level is just a variable being run through the Time formula. be it on a micro, or macroscopic level. We are simply chemically explainable variables. At this very moment everything is just---> A+B+C+D+...(All things in existence)=Time.(Aka. "Now")

(Remember from my first post that this funny thing called existence is repeating it's expansion/contraction thing that we call 'Time', ad infinitum)

This particular time through the 'time' formula it was decided for you to be... a letter 'A'
the next time through the formula at the same point in the formula you are... a letter 'B'
and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are... a letter 'C'
and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are ... a roman numeral 'IX'
and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are ... a digit '9'
so on, and so forth... randomly...forever and ever...making all choices not only possible but a reality
.
.
.

Of course, that would have you with no other choice then the thing that you are right 'NOW'. That is, other than a physical culmination of chemicals interacting with other chemicals; some living, others not. Now, It would be nice to think we'd have a choice to flip or not flip that coin. However, all the events leading up to that choice to flip, or even thinking about the idea to test that choice of free will, are all occurring inevitably and randomly. That is because in actuality, we have NO real control over anything we think or do; your interactions with people, the seating available at a movie, the way in which our burgers at a fast food place are flipped. NOTHING. We may think in those small lucid moments of the 'to flip, or not to flip' scenario we really have control but its merely the synapses in your brain firing randomly as a result of all the life experiences that make you, YOU.

Example: You have a long day and nothing seems to be going your way, you had a freak accident with your car on the way to work requiring you to walk instead of drive your car, you feel the inability to take control of your life which causes you to bring up the question..."To flip, or not to flip...AHHH, at least I have free will...". However, all the previous experiences throughout your day have you too tired to exert the force of energy required to dig into your pocket, take out the coin, and flip, so you choose NOT to but instead, revel in the sweet blissful feeling that you still have free will.

OR the converse,

Example: You lucked out today investing wisely, and winning another $5,000 in the stock market. Amidst this energizing feeling of victory, you feel in control of your life and destiny and how it was a such a good idea to listen to your buddy about that stock tip. You have second thoughts, and think perhaps it was just dumb luck, although in the end at least it was still your decision. You then, smile and bask in the sweet blissful feeling that you still have free will, and gleefully flip the coin.

Both situations have you seemingly deciding on something, but at its most basic level you are just a product of your environment. Its all just the way in which we view that given moment in the "Now". Our consciousness is just a chemical asteroid being bombarded by other asteroids and redirecting trajectory accordingly.

That pretty much strips any idea of true individuality away...

**Howie** · 10-11-2006 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by SolSkye;

I don't mean to bump this to the top but, Howetzer, you never elaborated on what you were talking about earlier. I'd personally like to hear more about this topic and dont think it deserves to go into the annals to be forgotten ;P[/b]

I agree. This is a very interesting topic.
I had to go back over it to try and get my head around the idea.

I unfortunately am in the process of moving. I can't find that article that I was reading.

In short it was a device that scientist were suppose to have in working condition by next year to give what they believe to be a relative view of the beginning of our universe.

Having said that, has anyone been following the Noble peace prize?
One of the scientist, first in this classification to receive this, has said he has some evidence to support the model of the first minutes of the beginning of our universe. Again...Short on the information.

I will find out more SolSkye.
In the mean time I will try to ponder more of this free will thing.

I thought this was kinda funny when I went back to reread this thread. (Given the topic of no free will.)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("SolSkye")</div>

Well, This idea has always been fleeting and coming back to my mind for many years now so I thought I'd freelywrite about it and let people talk about it more, if interested.[/b]

**Cyclic13** · 11-09-2006 06:32 AM

It's nice you picked that up Howie. It was more of a joke for myself but I didn't think anyone else would catch that.

Recently, I uploaded a song I wrote where I attempt to sing, it's called 'Eternal Now'. Basically, after having written this thread I was inspired to make some music about it, and made that song... Now you can think more about this feeling of 'Zen' along with some trip-hop/ambient music about it.

(Please give it a listen by going to the SolSkye link in my signature)

'Eternal Now' lyrics:
I feel the past...
I feel the future...
Co-existing reality..reality...

The here and now...
Is all there is...
It's all there was..and ever be...and never be...

A moment lost...
A moment found...
In each breath inside of me...inside of me

I feel the past...
I feel the future...
Co-existing reality..reality...

**Raz** · 12-18-2006 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by SolSkye

'Eternal Now' lyrics:
I feel the past...
I feel the future...
Co-existing reality..reality...

The here and now...
Is all there is...
It's all there was..and ever be...and never be...

A moment lost...
A moment found...
In each breath inside of me...inside of me

I feel the past...
I feel the future...
Co-existing reality..reality...
[/b]

As I expand my 'point of view' of self I also expand choise. As I see self in everything else, and we are all things, beeing judged by the observer or as we observe. Even sitting down and doing nothing I judge the situation and decide how to feel without knowing it.

The key is creativety and our bodys are the doors. As I find the extatic urge to BE all that that I am meant to be and live in the now 200% I wonder when I will relize who and what I really am. With this question I realize that it dose not matter who I think I am, but how I manege to surf the waves of life. With this I lett go of my individuality and follow a gutt feeling to who knows where? I'm in no hurry to change. I have changed all my life and all my previous lives and in this life I find my self compleate in the end, and the end is now. Or the begining, how ever you want to look at it. There is a part of us all that was never born. That part is always with us in spirit as it serves as a bridge between physical and spiritual. Sometimes the bridge can be clear as day and it all feels so natrual. Sometimes the bridge is in darkness nad the light is hard to see. That is where faith in your self comes in and you lett a spark of hope leed your way.

When we are one with that bridge we will turn in to ships and sale away to a destination with our own free will as navigator.

I will enjoy the simple lif as a egg in a pond as I do not need to look back at my life and feel any regrets as everything hapend as it should.

We are waking up... Slowly but surly as a new star comes to life.

We are the ones we have been waiting for. We come one...

This world full of multiverses will be a universe... I have seen it... I was on the edge of experianceig it but the ocean for all it's glory was too big for me to handle in that moment, so back in to my egg I go, to grow. And make a new atemt, when I'm ready, with the help of my friends.

Earth is not alone... We are not alone... We never was and never will be... We where just given time to grow. Soon we wont need time. We will be time...

is it true? It is in my universe...

**blade5x** · 12-20-2006 08:18 AM

One problem

The universe is accelerating away from itself. Meaning right now, there is no contraction seen in the future. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.

I have a similar theory, except mine invovles the concept of infinite time, anything and everything is possible.

Kind of weird thinking, if this is true, I wonder what I did the last time around. Who was I? If this is true, I look at others, and they are all really just me, everyone is everyone, amd we just take turns viewing this reality as well as other realities from different viewpoints. True individuality doesn't exist. An endless cycle that goes on and on forever. We die, infinite amount of years go by like it's nothing, just like the 15 billion that our universe has existed seems like nothing to us. Then we are concious again, with no meory of the past. Thank God there is no memory of previous existance if this was true, because the concept of "forever" would just be to much our minds to handle IMO. A theory like this scares me knowing that I could be alone, but hey, the experience is all I really care about anyway.

**Cyclic13** · 12-20-2006 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by blade5x

One problem

The universe is accelerating away from itself. Meaning right now, there is no contraction seen in the future. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.

I have a similar theory, except mine invovles the concept of infinite time, anything and everything is possible.

Kind of weird thinking, if this is true, I wonder what I did the last time around. Who was I? If this is true, I look at others, and they are all really just me, everyone is everyone, amd we just take turns viewing this reality as well as other realities from different viewpoints. True individuality doesn't exist. An endless cycle that goes on and on forever. We die, infinite amount of years go by like it's nothing, just like the 15 billion that our universe has existed seems like nothing to us. Then we are concious again, with no meory of the past. Thank God there is no memory of previous existance if this was true, because the concept of "forever" would just be to much our minds to handle IMO. A theory like this scares me knowing that I could be alone, but hey, the experience is all I really care about anyway.
[/b]

I like the way you put that... it IS a scary thought, and that may be why this reality exists... as a coping mechanism to the reality that we truely are alone...One I not only find plausible...but highly likely...

That's also why the idea of infinity is a pretty impossible concept to grasp. If we could start to grasp it we would cease to function properly in this reality. Consider it a safeguard. A few times while on acid I've come pretty close to understanding the meaning of it all (at least a fraction closer) and have expanded my understanding outwardly to see everything as an infinite series of 1's and 0's all part of the same equation, of which I was merely one digit... Needless to say, it was pretty impossible to function normally and I actually wished the understanding away because I knew it would be impossible to even start to care about my small pathetic '1' of a life when I could understand the grand scheme. Now all I have is a remnant of that memory and feeling.

May I point you to a NIN song that deals with this idea you mentioned of existance being the way that the universal soul copes with being alone... 'Right Where it Belongs' (It's the background music to this cool video which is totally unrelated)

Thread: Past, Present, Future... The Eternal 'now'

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