Dose anyone else here believe that we're a socialist fascism in the disguise of a democracy? :blue:
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Dose anyone else here believe that we're a socialist fascism in the disguise of a democracy? :blue:
Whatever you'd call it, it's not healthy anyway. Politicians are everywhere the same, they're a contradiction of loyalty and trustfulness.
Yes, however i think orwell said it best when he said that if you gave a picture of humanity it would be someone with their boot on someone head. It was actually more poetic, but you get the picture.Quote:
Dose anyone else here believe that we're a socialist fascism in the disguise of a democracy? [/b]
Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
I assume by we you eman the Unieted States, i mnot assuiming that for any other reason than th emajrity of posters ehre are from the U.S
and no i disagree, how could the united states ever possibly considered socialist in any way shape or form?
Imran
Oh yes, imran p is right he always right. Well in america or US their is a huge anti socialist movement kind of like the communist hunt, which went on in the 1950 to 1960. I think you mean consertive fascism or just fascism, i would brand US as more as a religious fascist as they make up most of the goverment and the church has massive power in US.Quote:
and no i disagree, how could the united states ever possibly considered socialist in any way shape or form?[/b]
Well you at least are an egocentric facist, because: Welcome to the internets, where more people speak english then Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
America has QUITE some fascistic traits.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
This is one of those sites that compare the 14 points of fascism, and they fit perfectly. Don't forget, those points weren't make with America at mind. I thought the professor that made that list was into Germany more.. fascist Nazi Germany.
Don't worry, only 13 of the 14 points overlap!!!
Um, social security, medicare, welfare are all socialist in nature. And a lot of people want to make our health care system even more socialist.
Seriously, social secuirty is the definition of socialism. Everyone who works is forced to pay money into the system, which the government then gives to other people. I mean, do I really need to spell it out for you?
Yep,
Conforming non-conformist prediction:
Give it another decade of passive acceptance of anything thrown at the public in the name of safety. It will take a bit of stewing for democracy to soften into what it actually is...keep an eye out and be afraid...BE vErrryyy afraid!!!! muh ahahahahah (scary voice)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Such a foolish post
yes spell it out fo me
To even think that America could be socialist is preopoterous, in the UK we have the NHS, coutesey of Nye Bevan, but it doesnt make this country socialist.
I rebutt the claims of Socialism with three words: Extensive Private Ownership.
Every form of legitimate socialism is chracterized by state ownership or community ownership.
Its lyk Germany under the Nazi Party. It wasnt socailist. The word Socialist is banded around willy-nilly to describe economic systems that dont even come close to socialism and are i nfact the compeltel opposite,
Free Market Capitalism
Pracitcally imperalism, but hey, lets not go into tht.
=)
Imran
The only cool thing you said was "religious fascism" I actually agree with you all the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by becomingagodo
thanks for the link!Quote:
Originally Posted by becomingagodo
YES IT IS!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by becomingagodo
FUNNY...I have about the same prediction.Quote:
Originally Posted by becomingagodo
Imran, Imran, Imran,... We do have almost absolute state ownership all our land has a title with the states name on top, every car halso has a title, all small businesses have tittle and a contract with the IRS. all these titles say that the state owns and "we the people" get to rent it through taxing, don't pay your taxes lose you property, lose your business and go to jail, youy did not buy it you payed for the right to rent it. In your own terms you have proven the US a fascism.Quote:
Originally Posted by becomingagodo
Yes. I don't think the socialist part was always true, I don't really know when the fascism came so much into the picture, but I think the democracy part was probably always a disguise.Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
Yah, but your pretty smart. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Cause I agree with you? :wink: backQuote:
Originally Posted by taltho
haha...and I thought I was the one agreeing with you. :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary:
Fascism, noun
a nationalistic and anti-Communist system of government like that of Italy 1922-43, where all aspects of society are controlled by the state and all criticism or opposition is suppressed.
I read a news article about a couple of catholic protestors in North Dakota. They hit the walls of a missle silo, and threw some pig blood on it. thats it. They were sentenced to close to a year in jail.
Life doesn't work like that. You think its black or white, that your either socialist or your not. The fact is that socialism plays a large part in our country. No, our country isn't 100% socialist but there is a very real socialist agenda. And theres no way around saying social secuirty is a socialist program as its basicly wealth redistribution.
As for private property, the government has already ruled it can take your homes and then sell them for a profit. They take peoples homes all the time and then sell them to a company which builds higher price homes which will give the city more tax money.
If your arrested in this country, the government often takes your property and then sells it off, even if it had nothing to do with the crime you committed. So what are you talking about? We have a government than can take your private property under bullshit reasons and forces its population to pay into a wealth redistribution plan and you say we will never go socialist. You need to wake up, its already happening, one step at a time.
i agree with your point regarding facism to an extent, the socialst part i refutedQuote:
Originally Posted by taltho
Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
The key is your statemnt that they can take away your private proeprty, bloody hell man, if theres private property its not socailist.
And we are discussing the United States, the msot capitalstc country nthe world
What about all the major corporations, like Macdolands, Wal-Mart, Haliburton
You think thats soclailst.
DOnt spout crap about social security, the odd scoialsit feature does not even make a country remotely socialist.
One step at a time, you think Bush wants the country to become Socialist?
Are you shitting me?
It'd be a mriacle and a gift if you did
but your not going to
I beleive your the one needs to open your eyes, if you udnerstood that Socailsm is built upon MArxist economics with variations, you'd understand that the United States does not at all apply these economics.
You cant pinpoint indivudal features, you msut discusss the economic system as a whole
Be serious man
Imran
Um you missed the point. If they can take it away, then you don't really own it. Once you get into the idea that the government owns everything but "allows" you to keep it for the time being, its no longer private propert, its socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by imran_p
Wrong, the governemnt could at no point inform the owners of wal-mart that the company now belongs to them, as you obviously udnerstand it would not work
stop bieng so blind
Imran
I am blind? Of course they wont take walmart, its a huge company with millions to spend to fight the government in courts if they tried. What does work however, is the government taking over individuals homes. Obviously you havn't heard of all the eminent domain abuses that have been going on all around the country over the last 5-10 years.
Government taking someones house away to build a golf course. Taking entire blocks of people homes away and selling it to developers so they can rebuild the area and raise the property value to increase taxes. Forcing people out of their homes then just deciding they don't want it anymore and then selling it to someone else, for them to use as the please. Its all bullshit and it happens all the time.
I guess as long as walmart isn't taken over you don't care right? Who cares about the people, the only people who get private property are large companies. You know, you make me sick.
im gonna have to agree with alric here. one way that big cities have 'cleaned' out the city of poverty is to destroy affordable homes and apartments and erect fancier, expensive or some fancy hotel. thus, the lower income families are literally forced out of the city, high income families come in and what do you know, the city no longer has poverty. it makes more money, brings in more business
the poverty still exists, it just moved
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Ok, what is your logic? Also what he says below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Thats exactly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
"the poverty still exists, it just moved" how can that possibly sound like socialism? just because the government has the power in some situations to take your property from you doesn't make it a socialism. eminent domain is used to clear out the poor and replace it with the rich, if that sounds like redistribution of wealth something is wrong. property is yours in america, it can be sold by you or you can buy property, it can also be handed down through the generations, america is not a socialism and isn't even slowly becoming one, especially when congress raises their own wages 35 times before considering raising minimum wage...Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Property is yours, as long as, you pay for that right through property taxes. Correct me if I'm wrong, you don't pay your taxes you lose your property, don't drive you car legally, they can take your car if you don't license it is this public safety?Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
We do have a redistribution of wealth but what is it doing. It's taking out hte middle class and small businesses.
What dose that mean.
If were not socialist and not becoming socialist what are we, and what are we becoming?
but you see as long as you abide by the law, the property is yours. in a socialist society it all belongs to the state from the start. its more of a relocation of wealth than a redistribution, because redistribution would involve taking from the rich and giving to the poor, with eminent domain the government doesn't properly compensate for the loss of the people's property and hands it over to rich people who want to build malls or expensive condos. i'm not saying this is true in all eminent domain cases but enough to cause alarm. what this means is america is becoming more of a fascism than a socialism. plus you have the war on unionized labor and all sorts of signs showing this trend. back during the great depression, under FDR, it was becoming more of a socialist society, but most definitely not now.Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
Exactly, thats how it always work. Any time anyone ever tries to go socialist they end up going fascist and screwing over all the poor people. Thats why everyone always says socialist is a good idea in theory but is poor in practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
U misnisterpreted me
I am against private property.
I hate large corporations like wal-mart
what im saying is that wholst compaines like this are present the country is not socialist or even lose it to
the US is stiched up and divded between large corporations
You cometpely misinterpreted the meanin behind my post
Imran
No offence but you have problems. Most people think of private property as the stuff they own, their home, their car, their computer or whatever. Normally their shares of walmart stock is at the bottom of their list.
Honestly we are not fully capitalist anymore. With all the taxes and subsidizes the government gives to businesses its no longer a fair and open market place but a lot of it is controlled by the government.
Just because large companies exsist, doesn't mean its not socialism. Normally the people at the top of socialist governments get to keep all their stuff. So large companies get to stay as long as they pay their "donations" to the government. When the general population don't own anything, that is socialism, and thats what we are heading into. Notice how your not even talking about small businesses, your talking about just the large corporations. Basicly what you get is a socialist government ran by the largest corporations and the government.
Ahhh, u dont get it,
Socialism is where nobody owns anything
even the big corpoations
in socialism nobody owns anything, actually o nthe cotnrary everybody owns everything
colelctive ownership
your sadly deluded if you dont beleive the US is the most corrup Capitalist country i tnhe world.
Everyday the working man is explioted, he labours for a tiny portion of waht should be his wages
I suggest you look in to the LAbour Theory of Value, advocated by Karl Marx
How can that at all be socailist??
Imran
Most socialist governments end up being fascist where the government owns everything. Yea the theory is the people own everything but how it really turns out is with the government owning it all. Thats what I am talking about, how the government is slowly moving towards where it thinks it owns everything.
It kind of sounds like your a socialist and are kind of disappointed in the way things are going. This is how it always goes though. Socialist government where everyone shares everything is just a dream, socialism is really just a fascist government, where they own everything and everyone else is equally poor.
I'm suggesting a disguise in the form of a democracy. This would imply the socialism is hidden under a blanket of disguise. I'm also suggesting that we, as of resent, have incorporated a new kind of government until now unknown. My logic for this would be that our race (the human) has always changed and conformed to the "times". With our currant technology and availability toward information, I think it possible we're a hybrid government, a socialist fascism with the appearance of a democracy. See reply below.Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
We only have the appearance of owning things we don't relay own. We don't own it because it belongs to the state. Their name is on top of your title and they own it not you, they only lie, and say you do. But you don't. it's a disguise. See the above reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
in america you have the legal right to do with your property as you please, in a socialist society you cannot. and yes there are some socialist practices, but the fact that large corporations have immense political power in this country, makes it fascist. theres also no signs of any more steps toward socialism in the past 20 years at the least. while all the signs of impending fascism have occurred since and before 911. i would consider myself a democratic socialist/anarchist/trotskyist, but i believe american capitalism can be a beautiful thing, just not the way it has become today, a fascist imperialism.
The point im trying to make is
In the United States, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
this is wealth redistibution but of an opposite agenda to that of socialism?
Do you understand where im coming from?
Whenver a county resorts to facism, imperalist, capitalist fascism, it is alwyas branded as socialism.
And as result socialism is given a bad name. Yes a lot of counttries adopt slighlty socialist features, it does not make them a socialsit country.
Germany under the Nazis was not socialist yet it has been regarded as such. It has socialsit features, e.g. the people car, Volkswagon.
Does not make it socialist.
ther United States is so far opposite to Socialism that it ahs been compared to it.
Its welath re-distribution agenda is oppsoite to that of a saocialsit country.
Imran
Alric, What do you think about unions in regard to a nationalized police force?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
You have the legal right/obligation to pay rent/taxes so therefore you cannot own your property, it's ownership lies in theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Look at our police force, its a union. Again my point about disguise, we have evolved into a new play on government.
I believe America can be a beautiful thing, it already is it's just having an identity crises.
I don't understand where your coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alric
Have you ever been to the U.S?
I'm trying to bring to light here a concept that theres a blanket of propaganda disguising our socialist nature.
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a link to the wikipida explanation of fascism particularly this section, Fascism, capitalism and socialism
Also take into consideration the current state of America, the labor unions, police union, military action etc.
if there were no taxes, there wouldn't be a legal right to anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by taltho
User fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
Taxes are necessary where applicable, we have what is called excessive taxation, State-middleman ownership. Meaning the state acts as a middleman and owns your property leveeing you to pay rent.Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
We do not have patented property or bills of origin for our cars/trucks, we should own these property's but we don't.
You still haven't commented on unionism and our Police force?
Also I found something that Bill Clinton said. (I found this somewhere else in hte forums here @ DV's.)
"When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans... And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make people safer in their communities." President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A)
Here is the source of the above quote.
They're trying to take away our individual freedoms!
you haven't commented on the war on organized labor in america. i don't know much about police force unionization, but if its true that the government allows the police force to unionize, while restricting this right to other forms of labor, this is clearly a sign of a police state not so much a socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
oh, i can agree with you on that one. don't get me started on how stupid it is that gay marriage isn't legal and how drug tests/searches completely destroy our fourth and fifth amendment rights. but with all kinds of things such as rising tuition costs, social security being strained while the "necessary war on the bad guys" continues, and rampant consumerist culture, i just cannot see any trend of america becoming a socialist government. and maybe now that the democrats have some power again it'll begin to change a little, but clinton signed NAFTA and just shows that democrats aren't really too much different.Quote:
Originally Posted by taltho
What is "socialism" exactly defined, is there a definition? I'm going to do some research on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
No, but hte libertarian party is. :D So there is hope for America. :biggrin: It's up to "US" We The People, to take responsibility, politically, and actively, engage in liberating our-selfs peacefully as possible. The worst possible thing for America would be a civil war, it would potentially destroy her, and we don't want that. It's not that bad...yet...Quote:
Originally Posted by resonate
Just realize you can make a difference! Look into Libertarianism, if you like all those personal rights we just talked about. Ie. gay rights etc. As long as they fall within popper legislation. That's another topic.
I like you that's cool you understand. Our rights are being sucked up and torn away from us. "They say for hte good of the all, you and me everyone" What dose this suggest to you? Also We have labor unions to protect the good of the all...who happen to join their union, what is this?