Memorial day observed - Do you approve?

This Monday in the states we set aside a day, May 28th to recognize those who have served our country through the military.

I am curious to know for I have not personally talked to anyone avid enough to have this view.

I know many people are against war. War of any kind at any time. It is just not justifiable to many.
Trying to focus on those who served rather than pro war or anti war, how do you feel about the people who have served in war? For those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice and died in war?
Are you against their serving? Provided it was not a draft.
I beleive there are both pros and cons to this debate.

My family observes Memorial Day at the gravesides of fallen soldiers. We perform two small services, as adopted from the standard VFW service. We honor without question as to why, but in recognition that they DID. We do a circuit of four cemeteries all together.

Many headstones and graves lay unattended across this nation and around the world. If nothing else, consider heading to a cemetery with a trowel, a whisk broom and a gallon jug of water and do something to keep the memory of the sacrifices these men and women made visible... and remembered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pj

My family observes Memorial Day at the gravesides of fallen soldiers. We perform two small services, as adopted from the standard VFW service. We honor without question as to why, but in recognition that they DID. We do a circuit of four cemeteries all together.

Many headstones and graves lay unattended across this nation and around the world. If nothing else, consider heading to a cemetery with a trowel, a whisk broom and a gallon jug of water and do something to keep the memory of the sacrifices these men and women made visible... and remembered.

---

I agree with you pj.
:bowdown:And always remember POW and MIA !
I few of my employees wanted to work Monday to get ahead.
I told them they should observe this day, for I would likely not be a entrepreneur and you may not have a job. ;)

~My dad served in the Korean war.

Our ceremony will be conducted with my wife's step-grandfather, a WWII vet who fought in the South Pacific, at the memorial grave site of her real grandfather who died there, buried in Italy and later moved here.

My wife grew up with these services. Since we have been married, we've watched the ranks of this group of vets thin down to the one remaining.

This is the ceremony I cobbled together after there weren't enough left to continue the tradition. If any want to use it, please feel free:
--

This is an adaptation of the standard VFW graveside memorial.

The brief service requires people acting on behalf of the VFW Commander, Vice-Commander, Junior Vice Commander, Commander Officer Of The Day, Chaplain, President of the Lady's Auxiliary and a bugler or suitable way to play taps, if possible.

Acting Commander: The long tradition of Veterans of Foreign Wars graveside memorial services has been growing more difficult to carry on as the ranks of our treasured veterans grows thinner. While we cannot pretend to fill the shoes of these great men and women, we temporarily assume the roles of the VFW officers to carry on the tradition, acting on their behalf in commemorating the sacrifices of those who gave all for this great nation. We welcome any and all who would participate in this public remembrance of the heroic servicemen and women who have made possible the life we enjoy today. And so we begin the commemoration.

As long as any comrade's descendants survive - so long will the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, their families and friends render tribute to our heroic dead.

Comrades, on this day, forever consecrated to our heroic dead, we are assembled once again to express sincere reverence. This grave represents the resting places of many departed heroes who served in all wars. Wherever the body of one who defended their nation in the armed forces lies, there the ground is hallowed. Our presence here is in solemn commemoration of all these men - an expression of our tribute to their devotion to duty, to their courage and patriotism. By their services on land, on sea and in the air they have made us their debtors - for the flag of our nation still flies over a land of free people.

Chaplain, you will ask the divine blessing.

Acting Chaplain:
Father of us all! In the depth of our silent reverence we realize the truth of the inspired words, "I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."

As comrade after comrade departs we carry on the tradition of recognition as the ranks of those who fought these battles grows thinner. Help us to be faithful unto You and to one another. Look in mercy on the widows and children of our departed defenders, protectors and comrades, we ask You, and with Your own tenderness console and comfort those who are bereaved.

Heavenly Father, bless our country with freedom, peace and righteousness. Through Your favor may we be reunited at last before Your throne in Heaven. We praise Your Great Name forever and forever. Amen.

Acting Commander:
Attention! Acting officers, family members and friends of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, we will now pay our respects to our departed comrade. In so doing we offer solemn tribute to all who have fallen defending the United States of America wherever they may rest. Acting Senior Vice-Commander!

Acting Senior Vice-Commander:
On behalf of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, I place this symbol of our remembrance. (Places wreath.)

Acting Commander:
Acting Junior Vice-Commander!

Acting Junior Vice-Commander:
I place this symbol of purity on this comrade's grave. May each future generation emulate the unselfish courage of all who fought for freedom. (Places white flower.)

Acting Commander:
Acting Commander Officer of Day!

Acting Commander Officer of Day:
In memory of the heroic dead who have fallen in defense of the United States of America I place this tribute of our devotion and everlasting remembrance. (Places red flower.)

Acting Commander:
Acting President of the Ladies Auxiliary to the Veterans of Foreign Wars!

Acting Auxiliary President:
On behalf of the Ladies Auxiliary, Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, I place this emblem of eternity. Its color bespeaks life everlasting. Thus do we immortalize the brave deeds of our soldiers, sailors and marines who have given their lives on land, on sea and in the air. (Places blue flower.)

Acting Commander:
On behalf of our glorious republic for whose integrity our comrades enlisted and served, I place this emblem of the nation. The flag of our country was theirs to defend. Its glorious colors shall wave over them in death as in life - for everyone to behold.

To you who have departed, we render a silent salute.

Comrades, Salute! One!

(All in uniform hold salute to grave for ten seconds. Those not in uniform hold their right hand over their heart.)

Comrades in the Silent Land Beyond, wherever your mortal remains may rest, these solemn services we hold in tribute to you.

Two!

(If available, Taps is played, the salute is ended and the participants are dismissed.)

Adapted from "VFW Ritual Book", (as revised in 1953.)

Yes I do approve. Why? No school.

I'm against war, in principle, and I don't have the kind of "brainwashed" patriotism that would require me to die for my country in a foreign land because some asshole sent me to make other people die for theirs.

That being said, I like memorial day, in a "not having to go to work" kind of way.

Amen, pj. That was very touching. It got me just a little bit choked up. When I was in the Cub/Boy Scouts, I got to participate in patriotic events such as this. As a child, it's hard to fully comprehend the magnitude of the message and of the sacrifice made by my fellow countrymen. As I got older my understanding has increased many times over. Not out of jingoism but, out of appreciation for what I have.

I respect and appreciate each and every member of our military, for each has the courage and selflessness to do what I myself lack the courage, bravery and strength to do. War is a necessary evil and I'd like to thank each one who has faced that evil so that I do have to. And so that most of our citizens don't have to.

We think freedom is free but, in actuality, freedom comes at great cost. That cost is often in the form of lives, lives with so much potential and heart who choose to give everything for the happiness and security of those who may not even know what was sacrificed or what was/is at stake.

Military conflict is never pretty. Nor is it pleasant. But everything worth having is worth fighting for. We should all be thankful (no matter where you live or were born) that there are those who understand and appreciate that fact of live.

To all veterans and current service men and women: Thank you so much. We all owe you a debt that we can never pay in full :thanks: (where's a good "respect" smilie when you need it?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ataraxis

Yes I do approve. Why? No school.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Replicon

That being said, I like memorial day, in a "not having to go to work" kind of way.

---

It looks like you both appreciate freedom. If it weren't for people dying for your freedom, you would not have it. That is a fact. It is not just a tired old talking point. It is the truth. It really is. History's conquesting dictators were not stopped in their tracks by their own boredom. They were stopped by people who valued freedom so much they were willing to die so others could have it. That is why memorial day is celebrated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If it weren't for people dying for your freedom, you would not have it. That is a fact.

---

Be that as it may, I don't believe war to be a sustainable model for the survival of the human race.

Quote:

---

History's conquesting dictators were not stopped in their tracks by their own boredom. They were stopped by people who valued freedom so much they were willing to die so others could have it. That is why memorial day is celebrated.

---

I know why memorial day is celebrated, and believe me, I mean no disrespect for all the people that died for my freedom. I just think many of them died unnecessarily, even though "war is a fact of life" and all that. Let's face it, someone dying in WW2 made sense. But with current events, you gotta question the motives a little bit.

But going back to WWII, you'll notice that, while there have been plenty of atrocities since, none had the same kind of scale or scope. I believe the main reason for this is the global economy. In its simplest relevant form, the idea is, "You don't kill your customers, because that's bad for business." When they said "Never Again", they meant it, and that's just one example of a non-war way of helping to ensure continuing freedom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It looks like you both appreciate freedom. If it weren't for people dying for your freedom, you would not have it. That is a fact. It is not just a tired old talking point. It is the truth. It really is. History's conquesting dictators were not stopped in their tracks by their own boredom. They were stopped by people who valued freedom so much they were willing to die so others could have it. That is why memorial day is celebrated.

---

I don't see why one should feel thankful towards others who did not help oneself directly. So in this case freedom should just be taken for granted.

And no, an If is hardly a fact. An If is an If.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Replicon

Be that as it may, I don't believe war to be a sustainable model for the survival of the human race.

I know why memorial day is celebrated, and believe me, I mean no disrespect for all the people that died for my freedom. I just think many of them died unnecessarily, even though "war is a fact of life" and all that. Let's face it, someone dying in WW2 made sense. But with current events, you gotta question the motives a little bit.

But going back to WWII, you'll notice that, while there have been plenty of atrocities since, none had the same kind of scale or scope. I believe the main reason for this is the global economy. In its simplest relevant form, the idea is, "You don't kill your customers, because that's bad for business." When they said "Never Again", they meant it, and that's just one example of a non-war way of helping to ensure continuing freedom.

---

I think we will eventually get to the point where war no longer happens. It is going to take the end of dictatorships/monarchies/etc. to get us there, but I think the world will be free of totalitarian states some time in the next few hundred years. Let's hope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King and God

I don't see why one should feel thankful towards others who did not help oneself directly. So in this case freedom should just be taken for granted.

And no, an If is hardly a fact. An If is an If.

---

The Allied Powers helped both of us directly by stopping the world from becoming a Hitlerian state, which is what the world was on its way to becoming. Imagine what that reality would be like. It almost happened. I am also appreciative of the American forces that won our independence from Britain, for another example. Britain is a great country now, but it sucked when it was an oppressive monarchy.

A fact can involve an if. If A = B and B = C, then A = C. That is a fact that involves the word "if".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think we will eventually get to the point where war no longer happens. It is going to take the end of dictatorships/monarchies/etc. to get us there, but I think the world will be free of totalitarian states some time in the next few hundred years. Let's hope.

---

Exactly, and that's precisely why war is so necessary. Those are the very evils that the "good guys" go to war to get rid of.

Quote:

---

The Allied Powers helped both of us directly by stopping the world from becoming a Hitlerian state, which is what the world was on its way to becoming. Imagine what that reality would be like. It almost happened. I am also appreciative of the American forces that won our independence from Britain, for another example. Britain is it sucked when it was an oppressive monarchy.

---

Again, good call.

Quote:

---

A fact can involve an if. If A = B and B = C, then A = C. That is a fact that involves the word "if".

---

I love it :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Exactly, and that's precisely why war is so necessary. Those are the very evils that the "good guys" go to war to get rid of.

---

Just remember, each side thinks of themselves as "the good guys".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Replicon

Just remember, each side thinks of themselves as "the good guys".

---

I'm more than aware of that. All you can do is think things through and hope you're on the "right" team.

But, there is a big difference that often figures into the picture. The difference is that the "bad guys" are not fighting for freedom. The bad guys are usually fighting against freedom.

Look at the Middle East situation. Look at the Hitler situation. Look at the Pol Pot situation. Look at the whole Soviet Union situation. The list goes on... What common traits do all of those share? There were all against freedom.

Memorial Day is about freedom and those who fought for it. That is who the "good guys" are.

First off; I support any and every troop that goes into battle with a clear head and sober resolve to fight for good. These people are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice (and then some) for, what they perceive is, the good of our nation. For that reason, I definitely support Memorial Day.
However, what I don't always support is the means for these brave men and women being herded into conflict under false or insufficient pretenses, and the damage-control ideology of "If you don't support our war, you don't support our troops" that so many (everyone on Fox News, as a small example) like to use, to try to take the public crosshairs off of what's really important.
But I don't really feel like going too far into all that.
Yes, I approve of Memorial Day, given that it's acknowledged for the right reasons, and not as some spectacle to promote "patriotism."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I think we will eventually get to the point where war no longer happens. It is going to take the end of dictatorships/monarchies/etc. to get us there, but I think the world will be free of totalitarian states some time in the next few hundred years. Let's hope.

---

I really don't see that as possible - in any way. War is just as much an eruption of the conflict of ideas and beliefs (which - call me cynical but - the world will never be free of, if you ask me) as it is about government strong-arming.
But yeah, for the sake of optimism, let's hope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The Allied Powers helped both of us directly by stopping the world from becoming a Hitlerian state, which is what the world was on its way to becoming. Imagine what that reality would be like. It almost happened.

---

Definition of indirectly (dictionary.com): "coming or resulting otherwise than directly or immediately, as effects or consequences"

As a consequence of the Allied victory in WW2 we were "helped".

Besides, having Nazi Germany conquer Europe would not necessarily have been bad for me (assuming that the change of events would not have prevented my birth), since I'm of Germanic blood. And since I would have been raised in a Nazi nation from birth, I would probably not mind it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

...but it sucked when it was an oppressive monarchy.

---

That is your opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King and God

Definition of indirectly (dictionary.com): "coming or resulting otherwise than directly or immediately, as effects or consequences"

As a consequence of the Allied victory in WW2 we were "helped".

Besides, having Nazi Germany conquer Europe would not necessarily have been bad for me (assuming that the change of events would not have prevented my birth), since I'm of Germanic blood. And since I would have been raised in a Nazi nation from birth, I would probably not mind it.

That is your opinion.

---

The Allied Powers directly stopped the Nazis from taking over my world and yours, which is not something it makes sense to undermine. You might not mind Nazis ruling the world and killing off most of humanity, but if you had a crippled son, you would suddenly care very much, assuming you would care about the son the Nazis would kill. You also might like England when it was ruled by King George III, but you would have hated it when they found out your religious stance and put you in prison for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King and God

I don't see why one should feel thankful towards others who did not help oneself directly. So in this case freedom should just be taken for granted.

And no, an If is hardly a fact. An If is an If.

---

You did not think before you wrote that...right?
What a stupid thing to say. Related to war or anything else.

You are implying that things done indirectly not for you do not have an impact on you. If you believe that then I understand the ignorance form which your statement came.

I don't agree with war however I do respect the soldiers that go out there and fight for freedom. If only the word could settle fights with words and not violence :shakehead2:

I feel sorry for most of the troops, who are taken advantage of by our government, all the times. Some of the wars were worth fighting, some of them weren't. I think people who joined in some of wars are brave and noble and I think some who joined in others are just stupid.

That said, we are talking about people who have died and it really doesn't matter what they did in life, they were human and deserve respect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I feel sorry for most of the troops, who are taken advantage of by our government, all the times. Some of the wars were worth fighting, some of them weren't. I think people who joined in some of wars are brave and noble and I think some who joined in others are just stupid.

That said, we are talking about people who have died and it really doesn't matter what they did in life, they were human and deserve respect.

---

Me too.
Most are young and impressionable and want to belong to something. The Government uses that for it's advantage.
When you train an individual, group or mass to kill, how much different is the fundamental aspect than that of any other events we call atrocities, Hitler's soldiers, the Taliban. There not doing it against their will. They have been conditioned to believe "their truth just as our soldiers fight for freedom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howie

Me too.
Most are young and impressionable and want to belong to something. The Government uses that for it's advantage.

---

I don't know what "undisclosed location" you reside in but if you can't appreciate that fighting for freedom is done for the advantage of the entire "free world" then you really should reconsider what you have in life. Whether you're American or not, freedom is where it's at. You'd be pretty f'd if it weren't for those who valued freedom enough to fight for it. I don't care who you are or where you live, freedom fighters do what they do for EVERYONE and we are ALL in their debt.

The preceding message is to everyone here, not you in particular.

That is very true, if your actually fighting for freedom. The problem is that "fighting for freedom" is over used in propaganda. Such as the current war we are fighting, which has absolutely nothing to do with our freedom. Yet how many times have you heard someone say that it does?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

...the current war we are fighting, which has absolutely nothing to do with our freedom.

---

I'm not getting into a long arguement over this so I'll keep this short and sweet. Feel free to disagree all you want.

You are absolutely, 100%, in-arguably... wrong. It has everything to do with our freedom. The worst mistake we can possibly make is to not properly identify our enemy and their intentions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

The worst mistake we can possibly make is to not properly identify our enemy and their intentions.

---

I couldn't agree more with that statement. The problem however is that we have failed to properly identify our enemies and their intentions. Otherwise we wouldn't be fighting a war which has nothing to do with our freedoms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I couldn't agree more with that statement. The problem however is that we have failed to properly identify our enemies and their intentions. Otherwise we wouldn't be fighting a war which has nothing to do with our freedoms.

---

When the leader of Iran explicitly (that's right, EXPLICITLY. He has said that time and time again, under no uncertain terms.) states - repeatedly - that he intends to wipe the "infidel" (non-Islam) world off of the map and that Islam will control the globe, well... it's pretty clear that their sinister motives are indeed that of the complete annihilation of freedom. But, that's OK. You're welcome to live in denial. I'm just glad there are people who DO understand the nature of the enemy the world faces. That isn't about oil, my friend.

You grossly underestimate who and what we're up against.

That's all I have to say about it. I could go on for many pages but I've been through all that crap at another forum and I'm not willing to fight that battle yet again. My purpose here is not to make enemies so, I rest my case as of this very moment.

Is that a joke? Iran has absolutely no power at all to do that. There is no way in hell they could take over the world. I really don't want to insult anyone, but anyone who believes Iran is in a position to take over the world, with or without a nuke, is a moron.

Besides I wasn't talking about Iran anyway. I was talking about Iraq, which believe or not is even less of a threat than Iran.

Seriously they are not even a threat to mexico. How on earth can they possibly take our freedom?

You know....

....it's going on year 7, after 9/11....

...I've been listening to the news...the talk of the "attack on our Freedom" and have retained a slight bit of skepticism to the official story of why (assuming there isn't a deeper conspiracy) we were attacked.
It was only now, after becoming intrigued with this conversation between Alric and O-naught, that I actually decided to do some digging.

I was on Wikipedia for about 2 hours last night. (And I really don't want to hear anything about "sometimes Wikipedia is wrong," from anybody. References are listed so, if the info is wrong, explain why) I started with the entry for "Al Qaeda" and went through nearly all of their highlighted keywords, cross-referencing dates such as how the current war's origin can be traced back to the Iraq-Kuwait war and how Bin Laden's movement began as nonmilitary (mostly economic) actions against Iraq and other areas. It was not until the US decided to get involved in that war, because of Kuwait being an U.S. "interest" and sending "infidel" soldiers to the holy lands of Mecca and Medina that Bin Laden and sympathetic factions decided to take up arms against us.

Going through the web of a timeline (It's really all much more than I can put down, right now, being that its 6:30am, and I have to get ready for work) I'm still a little floored that there is absolutely nothing....absolutely nothing within that text that states this current conflict has anything to do with the hatred of our "freedom."

.....This is the culmination of a conflict that's been going on for decades. Bin Laden's (according to what I've read...I hope someone decides to do the same and double-check my understanding) desire to end the Westerner's occupation of that land by U.S. forces and he taughts the killing of Muslim civilians during earlier conflicts as the prime reason for retaliation against U.S. civilians.

None of this....None of this, has been told to us by our government or media (that I've heard) in the last 7 years, "opposition to our freedom" being the main reasoning given behind the attack.

Seriously...I'm pretty much bowled over by the blatant misdirection and propaganda I've just realized we are being subjected to....

Let me just clarify that the attack on freedom isn't a direct "I hate freedom" movement. What I mean is that they strongly, very strongly, oppose the freedom to be "not-Muslim". From their standpoint it's a religious war; the so-called 'Jihad' distorted from it's true sense of 'personal' Jihad.

Their goals are totally irrelevant. They can dislike us or our freedoms as much as they like, to be an actual threat to us they need a realistic way of taking them, which they do not have. The fact is they have so many of their own problems if we just totally left the area, they would be to busy in their own world to even think about us.

Just look at a map. Count how many counties are around them, look at where they are position. Now look at the US. Do you really think they care at all what we do way over here? Well maybe a little but thats because we keep provoking everyone. Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Just look at a map.

---

Just look at the terrorist movement, which is being bred by them.

Quote:

---

Do you really think they care at all what we do way over here? Well maybe a little but thats because we keep provoking everyone. Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

---

Again, look at the terrorist movement, which is bred by them. Now, look at the fact that their terrorists attacks have occurred in countries all over the world - in their region and elsewhere. What has China done to provoke them? What has England done to provoke them? What has...

Now, look at what Mahmoud Ahmedenijad tells - not the rest of the world but - his own people to get them riled up and to stoke the fires of hatred. Look at the targets of their terrorist attacks, which are bred by them. Who are the victims? Average, innocent citizens. Now tell me that their motives are that of peace, rainbows and cotton candy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howie

You are implying that things done indirectly not for you do not have an impact on you. If you believe that then I understand the ignorance form which your statement came.

---

I do realise indirect things do have an impact on me, but because the soldiers in WW2 did not do it for me in partipicular - and could not have done so, since I wasn't born - I see no need to be grateful about it.

If a group of soldiers came to my house and rescued me from some other soldiers trying to kill me, then I would be grateful because they directly helped me. But I see no point being grateful about something someone else did not do for oneself in the first place.

Yea because we are messing around in their countries. And even then terrorists attacks are very rare against us. If we just left them alone, there would be none.

See your so caught up in the hate mongering that you fail to see that its really not our problem. If we didn't sit aircraft carries miles off their coast, and we didn't fly planes around their borders, they wouldn't care about us at all. Not even remotely. The fact is they would probably threaten their neighbors or perhapes isreal, which could kick their butts anyway. So really there is no issue except for the one our country is trying to make.

Now if you wanted to say, we should protect the other counties in the area, or they we have a duty to keep the peace. That is fine. You have the right to that opinion. Of course that has nothing to do with our freedom, and its wrong to act like it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Yea because we are messing around in their countries. And even then terrorists attacks are very rare against us. If we just left them alone, there would be none.

---

I wish I could join your bask in blissful ignorance but, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree in this issue.

Quote:

---

See your so caught up in the hate mongering that you fail to see that its really not our problem.

---

You're wrong about me. But that's OK. If you want to call me hateful then I'm done with you. You're welcome to talk to me anytime but, on this issue, I resign. Good day to you.

Good because I havn't seen you once even attempt to explain how any of this has to do with freedom. All I see is you saying you think the group is scum. Heck I would probably agree with that, except we are not the trashmen of the world. Let them clean up their own mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Good because I havn't seen you once even attempt to explain how any of this has to do with freedom.

---

As I said, I'm not getting into it. It's very involved and I've been through it all too many times already. It can't be explained in only a few paragraphs. And, by the way, yes I did give clues to how it fits in. I'm not going over it again.

Quote:

---

All I see is you saying you think the group is scum.

---

I really wish you'd quit putting words into my mouth.

What do you mean you gave clues? Are you so uncertian in your postion that you can't debate it openly? I don't have time to play games with people who can't just say what they mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

What do you mean you gave clues? Are you so uncertian in your postion that you can't debate it openly? I don't have time to play games with people who can't just say what they mean.

---

May I present exhibit A?

Exhibit A

Bailiff, exhibit B, please:

Exhibit B

We're ready for the next exhibit, please:

Exhibit c

Any more motions? Good. The court requests that the prosecution more thoroughly familiarize itself with the case and closely examine the evidence.

Court adjourned :cowbell:

Um how does reposting the same thing advance your arguement in anyway at all? I mean, if they had nothing to do with it the first time, why would they now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Is that a joke? Iran has absolutely no power at all to do that. There is no way in hell they could take over the world. I really don't want to insult anyone, but anyone who believes Iran is in a position to take over the world, with or without a nuke, is a moron.

Besides I wasn't talking about Iran anyway. I was talking about Iraq, which believe or not is even less of a threat than Iran.

Seriously they are not even a threat to mexico. How on earth can they possibly take our freedom?

---

Iran will never have the power to wipe out the entire "infidel" world, but the stance Ahmadenijad expresses is indicative that if he ever does get nukes, which he is trying to do, he will use them for terrorist purposes. That is a very big deal.

As for Iraq, I don't think Hussein could have single handedly turned the United States into a totalitarian state. However, five governments, our CIA, our Senate (Democrates included), and our Bill Clinton Administration all reported that the Hussein regime, which has in fact used WMD's for terrorist purposes and were in fact developing WMD's in the years before the current war, had stockpiles of WMD's. We were his biggest enemy. That was very sufficient cause for alarm. That is why I think the attack on the regime, which was not preemptive and was instead a continuation of Gulf War I because the Hussein regime violated the contingent ceasefire, was justified. I say he could not have single handedly taken away our freedom because we would have never let it happen. However, if we were completely passive, he would have walked right in and taken our freedom. What would have stopped him otherwise? Therefore, our military and its willingness to fight are what protect our freedom from dictators like Saddam Hussein.

If we all roasted marshmallows and refused to fight, we would not be free. Also, if we allowed all of our enemy dictators to do as they please, they would have nukes. If all of them had lots and lots of nukes and used them to make it rain nukes here, we would be completely over as a country. We would lose our freedom. So standing up to dictators who threaten us does protect our freedom. Anybody who feels safe that we are not going to lose our freedom feels that way because of trust in our military to not let such a thing happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Really none of the stuff happening over there is any of our business.

---

I totally disagree. I think mass oppression of the innocent anywhere in the world is the whole rest of the world's business. Genocide is the whole world's business, and totalitarianism is the whole world's business, just like famine and disease.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

This is the culmination of a conflict that's been going on for decades. Bin Laden's (according to what I've read...I hope someone decides to do the same and double-check my understanding) desire to end the Westerner's occupation of that land by U.S. forces and he taughts the killing of Muslim civilians during earlier conflicts as the prime reason for retaliation against U.S. civilians.

None of this....None of this, has been told to us by our government or media (that I've heard) in the last 7 years, "opposition to our freedom" being the main reasoning given behind the attack.

Seriously...I'm pretty much bowled over by the blatant misdirection and propaganda I've just realized we are being subjected to....

---

This is Bin Laden's letter to the United States. You can find a great deal in it about how he detests our freedom.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...110490,00.html

He brings up two questions Americans were asking about what his problem is. The first question is of why they are fighting and opposing us. The second question is about what they want from us. In regard to "Q1", he talks about our occupation of the Middle East and our attacks on Muslim groups and lands. In regard to "Q2", he says more of that but also goes into great detail about our supposed immorality and how our government allows it. Specifically, he mentions homosexuality and fornication. He even speaks against us for not punishing Bill Clinton for his sexual encounters with Monica Lewinsky. He says he hates our way of life and our government's allowance of it and demands that we accept Islam and live by the Koran. What he does not tell us is that he doesn't care how we live as long as we stay out of the Middle East. That is not his position.

However, it does seem a bit ambiguous. He gives a reason for why they started fighting us, and it is completely about how we have attacked and occupied the Middle East. It gets confusing when you look at the second question. He says what he wants from us. Ending our allowance of supposed immorality is part of it. So does that mean they will stop wanting to attack us if we leave the Middle East? I don't think so. If that were the case, why would he add the part about what they want from us? Why would we give a damn about that if they stopped fighting us? It seems he is saying that our military activity in the Middle East is what got us into conflict with them, but that it will not end until we go all the way with what they want. That is how most wars work. For example, the United States went to war with Japan because of Pearl Harbor, but our ceasing of conflict involved demands concerning the way they run their government. That is one example of a great many. So even though our military activity in the Middle East is apparently what got them (Bin Laden, Al Qaeda) fighting us in the first place, they now demand more from us than for us to leave the Middle East. They demand that we end our freedom and live by the Koran in addition.

Them like any of country in the world, including the US, likes to talk big but they rarely back it up. Realistically all that stuff you listed is more of a threat to our allies in the area than to our actual freedoms.

I am all for helping out the people in the area except there are two very important things which need to be factored in. One we have our own problems here in the US. Really we shouldn't be sending troops over seas if we cant even defend our own borders. And two, we simply do not have the money.

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Them like any of country in the world, including the US, likes to talk big but they rarely back it up. Realistically all that stuff you listed is more of a threat to our allies in the area than to our actual freedoms.

I am all for helping out the people in the area except there are two very important things which need to be factored in. One we have our own problems here in the US. Really we shouldn't be sending troops over seas if we cant even defend our own borders. And two, we simply do not have the money.

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

---

I see your point, but I think we need to work on all of those things at the same time. I would like to see Iraq get off the ground as a free country, but I would also like to see the end of our war on drugs and other instances of increased freedom here.

Hussein probably was more of a threat to his neighbors than he was to us, but he was still a threat.

I am a capitalist at heart. I would have rather screwed over Iraq using our influance on trade, instead of using bombs. Because quite frankly, it saves us a ton of money, it saves a ton of lives, and it doesn't make nearly as many people mad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I don't know what "undisclosed location" you reside in but if you can't appreciate that fighting for freedom is done for the advantage of the entire "free world" then you really should reconsider what you have in life. Whether you're American or not, freedom is where it's at. You'd be pretty f'd if it weren't for those who valued freedom enough to fight for it. I don't care who you are or where you live, freedom fighters do what they do for EVERYONE and we are ALL in their debt.

The preceding message is to everyone here, not you in particular.

---

.
By stating what I did, was stating a fact. Because it is not A good one, it is easy to assume I am at one point or another. If you would have read the entire post, you would see that my respect for my freedoms and our troops is paramount.

I feel so many members should practice engaging in an entire discussion. Instead of reading ten posts and replying to all of them, read one! Read it well.

Universal Mind, thank you. I've explained it ad nauseum elsewhere and really don't care to get wrapped up in it here. You provided a good summation of where I'm coming from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

We should secure our own freedoms over here before trying to help people over there.

---

Which is exactly the intended outcome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howie

.
By stating what I did, was stating a fact. Because it is not A good one, it is easy to assume I am at one point or another. If you would have read the entire post, you would see that my respect for my freedoms and our troops is paramount.

I feel so many members should practice engaging in an entire discussion. Instead of reading ten posts and replying to all of them, read one! Read it well.

---

Howie, I actually did understand your position. I didn't mean to make it sound as though I thought you "don't appreciate" the situation. When I pointed out that:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by me

The preceding message is to everyone here, not you in particular.

---

...I was trying to say that I was using your points as a spring-board for my own rant and points. I wasn't necessarily responding directly to your statements. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Howie, I actually did understand your position. I didn't mean to make it sound as though I thought you "don't appreciate" the situation. When I pointed out that:

...I was trying to say that I was using your points as a spring-board for my own rant and points. I wasn't necessarily responding directly to your statements. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

---

No problem. I thought I was being singled out becasue of the "undisclosed location" statement.
In either case, I like your point. I am gald you got it out. :goodjob2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Howie

No problem. I thought I was being singled out becasue of the "undisclosed location" statement.
In either case, I like your point. I am gald you got it out. :goodjob2:

---

:lol: No, no, no, absolutely not. I only commented on that to illustrate that I was unsure if my comments even applied to you.

I'll admit, I'm definitely not the most diplomatic speaker and I sometimes come off as more harsh and forceful than I intend to. Anyway, peace :hug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I am a capitalist at heart. I would have rather screwed over Iraq using our influance on trade, instead of using bombs. Because quite frankly, it saves us a ton of money, it saves a ton of lives, and it doesn't make nearly as many people mad.

---

We didn't want to screw over Iraq. We wanted to make Iraq better, and hopefully the results of that will show more and more as history unfolds. It was the leadership we wanted to take down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Universal Mind, thank you. I've explained it ad nauseum elsewhere and really don't care to get wrapped up in it here. You provided a good summation of where I'm coming from.

---

Thanks. I'm glad you're here to help me argue this stuff. It's very rare that I find people on this site who agree with my foreign policy beliefs. For a while, I was a total solo artist at arguing this stuff here, and I had a whole storm of opposition. There seems to be a high correlation between lucid dreaming fascination and disagreement with American foreign policy. It would be interesting to understand why.

Its all about fear. Fear of what you don't know, fear of what might happen, and trying to control everything to prevent fear. Someone might set off a bomb in your house, someone might set off a chemical weapon, people might start firing nukes all around the world. The fact of the matter is your infinitely more likely to die in a car crash or from a heart attack than from a terrorist attack. You think your in control when your driving though, you think you can't have a heart attack because your not in "that bad of shape", and so you don't worry about that.

So you go along with the wars. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, lets invade. Iran wants a nuke, we have to bring the fight to them. North Korea has missiles they must be stopped! One war after another, in an endless cycle of fear we have to destroy every possible enemy untill we bankrupt our country, sell off our military and left totally defenseless.

Am I wrong? Everyday there seems to be more enemies showing up, more threats. People don't feel safer. The media and the government hype up the danager of the unknown, only making people fear it even more. All the while the government uses that to their advantage, the terrorists are already here. We need to spy on our citizens, we need to know their every move.

More people die in the world each year from cancer than from terrorists attacks. A ligitment threat or not its only a minor threat. You need to accept that not everything can be controlled. Fighting the wars like we are, hurt us far more than they protect us. Its just not worth it. More americans died in the Iraq than in 9/11. 40 times more people were injured in iraq than died during 9/11. 40 times! And for what? The short lived illusion that we are protected. Of course we know it didn't do anything, the real threat is Iran. Of course after we invade Iran we will find the real threat is someone else. And each time there will be a new target. Because there is no real threat, its just fear, and as long as we are killing people in another country we can pretend like we are doing something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Thanks. I'm glad you're here to help me argue this stuff. It's very rare that I find people on this site who agree with my foreign policy beliefs. For a while, I was a total solo artist at arguing this stuff here, and I had a whole storm of opposition. There seems to be a high correlation between lucid dreaming fascination and disagreement with American foreign policy. It would be interesting to understand why.

---

Know that I feel you, man. But also know that I intend to stay out of this kind of discussion here in the future. I was in your very same position at another site (which I officially completely resigned from today, as a matter of fact) and I don't want to get into here as well. Politics - as we all know - is one of those things that can tear friends apart. I consider each and every member of Dreamviews my friend and I'm not willing to compromise that over arguments regarding religion, politics or immigration, as those are three subjects I have very solid, strong opinions on. I don't base my opinions on whims. I've been actively observing this stuff for a very long time and I know exactly where I stand on each, and why.

Yes, I am on your side and I think that it's very important for people to understand that there is far more to the issue than is apparent on the surface. But, for me, this is not the place. As you can see, I've already got people calling me a hate-monger over this crap. It ends here and now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

The media and the government hype up the danager of the unknown, only making people fear it even more.

---

But, I must first point out that the opposite is actually the truth. The media goes out of its way to downplay the danger and to sweep the true face of evil under the rug. That's the Liberal mindset these days. They figure that if we aren't told (through the mainstream media) what's really going on then we'll be more willing to sit passively on the side lines, making no waves. Well, let me tell you. That's the quickest possible way to defeat. We've turned into a nation of crybaby defeatists and I, for one, don't like it one bit. It's absolutely not in our best interest. Nor is it in the best interest of the world community.

I advise everyone here to check out Glenn Beck and LISTEN to what he has to say...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Its all about fear.

The fact of the matter is your infinitely more likely to die in a car crash or from a heart attack than from a terrorist attack. You think your in control when your driving though, you think you can't have a heart attack because your not in "that bad of shape", and so you don't worry about that.

So you go along with the wars.

---

There is nothing unrealistic about fearing a government that has suicide bomber policies against "infidels", has used WMD's for terrorist purposes, is reported by so many bodies to have WMD's, is without nukes only because Israel blew up their factory, and violated our ceasefire for twelve years on several terrorism grounds. We were not illegitimately worried about that. We were being totally realistic. It is true that more people die in car accidents than die in terrorist attacks. We are trying to keep it that way, and our trying to keep it that way is what has kept it that way this whole time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Politics - as we all know - is one of those things that can tear friends apart.

As you can see, I've already got people calling me a hate-monger over this crap. It ends here and now.

---

I can understand that. Ironically, I first came to this site to learn more about lucid dreaming and to talk about trippy subjects without political hate being thrown at me. I spent a great deal of time on the internet during the first year of the war arguing for American Middle East policy. This site was supposed to be my escape from it. For two and a half years, it was exactly that. But last September, I started seeing some very vicious anti-American posts in this forum, and they were always completely unchallenged. I felt like I had an obligation to open minds by pointing out the other sides of the arguments. Everything was total gravy for me on this site before I started talking about religion and politics. It is mind blowing how certain people will hate you for what honestly seems to make sense to you. But when I see people from other countries saying the worst things imaginable about my country and I don't think that what they are saying is true, I feel the need to say something about it. I can totally understand why people would want to avoid the enemy climate that comes with disagreeing with such posts, but it's not how I personally am wired. I should also mention that the political discussions have involed a lot more tolerance and understanding here lately than they did for a while. I'm glad to see that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

This is Bin Laden's letter to the United States. You can find a great deal in it about how he detests our freedom.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...110490,00.html

---

Excellent. Thanks for that. I will read it as soon as I've got the time. Make no mistake, though - I knew that they hated our freedom and how our ways deviate from theirs (I've never heard/read that letter, though) but, from what I've read, I just didn't see it as the real reason for this conflict, in relation to the severity which that particular reason has been broadcast to the American people.
That's to say nothing to dampen your post, though. Simply explaining myself. I'll read that letter soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

...But last September, I started seeing some very vicious anti-American posts in this forum, and they were always completely unchallenged. I felt like I had an obligation to open minds by pointing out the other sides of the arguments. Everything was total gravy for me on this site before I started talking about religion and politics. It is mind blowing how certain people will hate you for what honestly seems to make sense to you.

---

Man, thanks exactly what I went through. And I, too, felt it was my duty responsibility to tell the other side of the story. It didn't take too long before I was receiving PMs and "rep. comments" (something we don't have here) that were negative. People said things like "The world would be a better place without @ssholes like you", "You're full of hate" and every other thing you can think of.

It's funny, I was very well-respected at that site until then. I felt the popular tide begin to shift. "Most" people there still have "great respect" for me but, the attitudes of some of the members there discolored my love for the place. The way people attacked me for speaking the truth (even the most obvious truths about things like political correctness, illegal immigration, and so forth) really rubbed a nerve with me. I stood up and held my ground for quite a few months. I finally decided it wasn't worth it. I hadn't become a member of a damn video gaming site to argue politics with a bunch of teenagers who were so ill-informed about world events that it was ridiculous for them to enter any political discussion at all. None-the-less try to dismiss the dangers of terrorism (for example).

Oh well. I'm feeling a hint of DéjàVu going on here. Like you, I'll probably end up involving myself with this crap here eventually. I hope not though. I really, really hope not. Let me muster the strength to avoid the temptation.

Oh, did I mention how thankful I am for our veterans and their courage :bigteeth:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

It's funny, I was very well-respected at that site until then. I felt the popular tide begin to shift. "Most" people there still have "great respect" for me but, the attitudes of some of the members there discolored my love for the place. The way people attacked me for speaking the truth (even the most obvious truths about things like political correctness, illegal immigration, and so forth) really rubbed a nerve with me. I stood up and held my ground for quite a few months. I finally decided it wasn't worth it. I hadn't become a member of a damn video gaming site to argue politics with a bunch of teenagers who were so ill-informed about world events that it was ridiculous for them to enter any political discussion at all. None-the-less try to dismiss the dangers of terrorism (for example).

---

I completely relate to what you are saying. It is almost as if I wrote that post myself, except for the video gaming part. Some people are so narrow minded that they leap to the conclusion that I didn't actually intellectualize our terrorism threats and come to the conclusions that I really think seem to be the most logical. They seem to assume that I just came out of the blue one day and said, "Now that I think about it, I love the idea of war because it just seems so damn cool, so I want to support one. What people can my country kill now? Yeeeee haaaaaaawwwwwwww!!!" They don't consider for half a second that I might have considered all kinds of possibilities and sided with the one that I honestly believe involves the best good to bad ratio.

College age people who are really into the whole social image thing often fall in love with the idea of being a war dissenter because it makes them feel important and powerful. They feel like they are being rebellious against "the establishment" and like they have joined a powerful cult. There is also the phase of development where people start to question everything they have been taught, which is good if done rationally, but in the late teens and early twenties it often goes to the extent of forming absurd beliefs. Asking, "What about another alternative?" can be very good, but often that mentality causes irrational thinking. That is not always the case with the war protestor type, but it very often is.

When somebody is in it for all of those things, it is 100% impossible to get anywhere in a debate with that person. If a person like that changes his mind, he is giving up a great deal more than some political stance. He is giving up the foundation of his identity. There is no way to reason somebody out of that, and hating your guts feeds the identity he is trying to protect. I even have relatives like that, and they are in their 30's and 40's. A few years ago, I told one of my cousins that I support the war in Iraq. He told his wife that a few minutes later, and she let me know immediately that her entire image of me had gone down the toilet. She kept staring at me that night for seconds at a time with a look that suggested I might as well have joined the Nazis. I have gotten a lot of that, but I am not going to lie about what I think. What makes sense to me makes sense to me, and I will always be upfront with it. However, my desire to have debates about it is winding down.

Thats a joke. The media clearly hypes the threat all the time to scare people. All the time there are reports of new terrorists threats, or targets, or some new way to attack us. Almost always they turn out to be fake. I remeber the last time I went across the country and I took a plane, they had some big deal where no one could take any kinds of liquids onto planes because they were told someone was caught trying to mix a bomb on a plane, and the entire story turned out to be totally made up.

Or the story about someone buying like a truck load of fertilizer and was going to make a bomb out of it and it turned out to be nothing. Or half of dozen times the government run in and arrest a group saying they were planning an attack, and it turns out all the people were just normal citizens, without even criminal records or anything. Totally made up crap.

I wouldn't be surprised, if there hasn't been a single legitimate arrest of a terrorist in our country since 9/11. You say there are terrorists all over the place though. Where are they? Clearly they are not here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Thats a joke. The media clearly hypes the threat all the time to scare people. All the time there are reports of new terrorists threats, or targets, or some new way to attack us. Almost always they turn out to be fake. I remeber the last time I went across the country and I took a plane, they had some big deal where no one could take any kinds of liquids onto planes because they were told someone was caught trying to mix a bomb on a plane, and the entire story turned out to be totally made up.

Or the story about someone buying like a truck load of fertilizer and was going to make a bomb out of it and it turned out to be nothing. Or half of dozen times the government run in and arrest a group saying they were planning an attack, and it turns out all the people were just normal citizens, without even criminal records or anything. Totally made up crap.

I wouldn't be surprised, if there hasn't been a single legitimate arrest of a terrorist in our country since 9/11. You say there are terrorists all over the place though. Where are they? Clearly they are not here.

---

The thing about liquids on an airplane was a result of what factually was a large scale terrorist plot in London to blow up TEN airplanes. Fortunately, the plot was stopped before it could become successful. That is one example of captured terrorists. Have you heard of the "shoe bomber"? Caught. The recent plot to blow up a military base? Stopped. Al Qaeda? Two-thirds of their leadership killed or captured. Tons of terrorists have been caught. This is about the biggest problem we have ever faced. I have no idea where you are getting your information. Do you really think the terrorist threat is some fairy tale? I wish I could agree with you.

Actually that was what I was talking about. It turned out them guys arrested in London were innocent and there was never a real plot by them. As for them losing Two-thirds of their leadership, thats a figure thats been repeated for the last 5 years. Which leaves 1 of 3 things. Either they get people back at an insane rate. They are lying about the numbers. Or they totally suck at finishing off the last third. As for the tons of terrorists caught, they are all people caught in iraq or afghanistan. There isn't anyone over here being caught for terrorism, because there are none.

How many terrorists attack were there before 9/11 on US soil? How many has there been since? How many terrorists are actually caught on US soil and then actually convicted of a crime? A fairy tale? I think the numbers speak for themself.

Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology

Source = U.S. Dept. of State
Historical Background
Office of the Historian
Bureau of Public Affairs

Those are attacks all over the place, including the U.S. And that's one hell of a long list for something that doesn't exist.

Notice how many of them happened to be perpetrated by those we are actively engaged in battle with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Actually that was what I was talking about. It turned out them guys arrested in London were innocent and there was never a real plot by them. As for them losing Two-thirds of their leadership, thats a figure thats been repeated for the last 5 years. Which leaves 1 of 3 things. Either they get people back at an insane rate. They are lying about the numbers. Or they totally suck at finishing off the last third. As for the tons of terrorists caught, they are all people caught in iraq or afghanistan. There isn't anyone over here being caught for terrorism, because there are none.

How many terrorists attack were there before 9/11 on US soil? How many has there been since? How many terrorists are actually caught on US soil and then actually convicted of a crime? A fairy tale? I think the numbers speak for themself.

---

They did arrest some guys for the London attempt who turned out to be innocent, but the plot was stopped. I might have been wrong in saying there were some positive arrests, but a terrible event was prevented. If the prevention were a put on and part of some conspiracy, don't you think the guys who turned out to be innocent would have been better framed and in Guantanamo right now?

The thing about Al Qaeda leadership is that there is a growth current going against the reduction current, so we have hit a level that has remained for the past few years. But we have caught some major big wigs, like Khallid Sheik Muhammed, who organized the fine details of the 9/11 attacks. Do you think he is some innocent fast food manager who got framed? I would love to believe that sort of thing, but I don't.

Again, the lack of terrorist attacks we are having here is a result of our terrorism prevention. Along with the successes of homeland security and the CIA's intelligence gathering, overthrowing two terrorist governments sent a very strong message to a lot of terrorists who don't want Iran and Syria to go the same direction as Afghanistan and Iraq, and I think that has a great deal to do with why we haven't had another terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11.

You didn't think I would actually read that site did you? It actually proves my point nicely. Out of that huge list of terrorists attacks there are almost none on US soil. And the one or two that are listed are not from the people we are fighting.

Infact reading over that list makes it painfully obvious we are fighting the wrong people. Most of the 'terrorists' activty against us are kidnappings and murders in central and south america. Reading over the list shows that our biggest enemy as far as terrorists is not al qaeda but the FARC. Which most people don't even know about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

You didn't think I would actually read that site did you? It actually proves my point nicely. Out of that huge list of terrorists attacks there are almost none on US soil. And the one or two that are listed are not from the people we are fighting.

Infact reading over that list makes it painfully obvious we are fighting the wrong people. Most of the 'terrorists' activty against us are kidnappings and murders in central and south america. Reading over the list shows that our biggest enemy as far as terrorists is not al qaeda but the FARC. Which most people don't even know about.

---

We are fighting all of those people, but the terrorists in South America don't have the goal of obtaining WMD's for the purpose of making us extinct.

And again, the lack of Islamofascist terrorism on American soil is a result of the successes of our efforts. It is not proof that the threat does not exist. It is proof that we are handling the threat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

You didn't think I would actually read that site did you? It actually proves my point nicely. Out of that huge list of terrorists attacks there are almost none on US soil. And the one or two that are listed are not from the people we are fighting.

---

I'm cursed by the lure of standing up for what's right. It's the cross I bear. :shakehead2: (I'll be glad when this thread goes away.)

I wouldn't have posting the link if I didn't want you to look at it. Whether the attacks are most prevalent here or abroad is not at all the issue. The fact is that terrorism as "political policy" is all too common. It is terrorism that we are fighting. It is those who harbor and provide safe havens for terrorist sects that we are fighting. It's the ideologies that encourage terrorism as "legitimate" actions that we are fighting. It's a dictator that openly - and under no uncertain terms - tells his people that the way for victory is through the cowardly acts of terrorism that we are fighting. It's the deeply-held beliefs that salvation is achieved by destroying masses of innocent people by means of bombings and other terrorist acts simply because they don't bow down to Allah so many times a day that we are fighting.

Quote:

---

Infact reading over that list makes it painfully obvious we are fighting the wrong people.

---

*See above post by Universal Mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I'm cursed by the lure of standing up for what's right. It's the cross I bear. :shakehead2: (I'll be glad when this thread goes away.)

---

..Hats off to ya Oneironaught! :thumbup:

Oh, I forgot to mention that the link I provided is 4 years out of date so it omits everything that's happened after 2003.

In relation to the original post it depnds entirely on which war we are discussing. If a member of my family joined the British Army to fight in IRaq they would die to me.

However, any soldier who fought in WW2 deserves some form of recognition, not for "fightin for HIS country" but preserving ideals of equality and freedom. Ideals the whole world must embrace for us to truly attain world peace.

Basically it depends. If a country invaded Britain I'd fight, to preserve our freedom. Like if I was an Iraqi I'd be shooting at soldiers. Bu I would never take part in this whole world police attituide.

Imran

Thats the difference between real terrorists and fantasy terrorists. Real terrorists drive bombs into buildings, kidnap people and murder people. Fantasy terrorists capture nuclear bombs, cover entire towns with chemcial poisons and take over entire countries single handedly.

Actually there are real terrorists in places like iraq, they are the ones that place bombs on the side of the road and kidnap US soilders. They are also the ones that are no threat to us, as they can't get to the US to place bombs on the side of OUR roads. Everything else is just hype. They don't have any big plans to harm us, they have no special weapons. They are just people trying to do their best by killing as many people as they can but they are largely limited to doing it only in their own countries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

as they can't get to the US to place bombs on the side of OUR roads.

They are just people trying to do their best by killing as many people as they can but they are largely limited to doing it only in their own countries.

---

And why might that be?

Well if they lived in mexico they could probably do it fairly easy. The problem for them however is they need to get a passport, fly over to the US, find some place to live, find some place to buy a bomb or find the stuff needed to make the bomb. Then go out and set up the bomb all while not being seen by their neighbors or local police. To be honest, its really not worth the thousands of dollars setup cost for what is likely to be one road side bomb killing at most half a dozen people. Which is why they do it in their own countries. Its far easier.

I mean if you wanted to go blow something up. Think of how hard it would be. Now picture doing something in some country you never been before, maybe you fly to japan and try it. Its a huge pain. Not to mention you need people to speak english. Thats why they normally work locally, or maybe countries bordering their own.

The same reason why no one will ever use nukes or chemcial weapons. How the hell do you get a nuke half way around the world without anyone noticing? The fact is you don't.

We have a lot of people noticing. That's what the war on terror is all about on the domestic front.

This just in... Today, a plot to blow up the JFK Airport in New York was stopped.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18999503/

Now lets just wait a couple weeks and see how legitimate it actually is.

It might very well be legit, and it's great that they're catching these guys. The one thing is that this kind of stuff has been going on for a LONG time. It hasn't increased as much as you think. It's just been getting more media overexposure. More decent leaders have fought them silently (which makes it easier to catch them), but now, they're using the media to make people scared of something that has been around for decades.

Hmm how long has it been and already the story is already looking to be total crap. The police said they knew about the plan since January last year. In all that time the group still had no money to even try to set anything up. They say the plan isn't even physically possible. The group had no connections to al qaeda.

Fact is best case scenario you had some morons who could never had pulled off an attack. This just wasn't a threat at all. Worst case, they entire thing is crap and they weren't planning anything. For an attack that isn't even possible, that the police knew about over a year in advanced and was still in the 'planning' stages. This story has been nothing but hype. I don't see how you can possibly believe that the media tries to downplay terrorists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

This story has been nothing but hype. I don't see how you can possibly believe that the media tries to downplay terrorists.

---

Two three comments:

1) So, because not every single threat pans out to be of highest priority we should just throw in the towel? What if the plan wasn't "foiled"? Even if it hadn't gone as planned or had the devastating outcome hoped for doesn't mean the plan couldn't have still caused great harm or evolved into a far worse scenario.

When some one says they intend to kill you you're going to make it top priority to stop them. Even when you find out the their plan involved beating you with a large cactus. Sure, that cactus may not kill you but the intention means that things can evolve very quickly as the "killer" gets more and more desperate. Plus, when other people are involved in a scheme like that things can turn very ugly, very quickly.

2) Sadly, we live in a time when the world is full of politically correct cry babies who cry foul if every little detail isn't broadcast in the media.

3) Every terrorism plot is of the most serious nature. It doesn't matter how competent the ones doing it are.

I never said we shouldn't arrest criminals. My point was, why are we going all around the world starting wars and bankrupting our country when none of them are a threat? We would be far better off if we used the money instead to hire a few more police in every city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

Hmm how long has it been and already the story is already looking to be total crap. The police said they knew about the plan since January last year. In all that time the group still had no money to even try to set anything up. They say the plan isn't even physically possible. The group had no connections to al qaeda.

Fact is best case scenario you had some morons who could never had pulled off an attack. This just wasn't a threat at all. Worst case, they entire thing is crap and they weren't planning anything. For an attack that isn't even possible, that the police knew about over a year in advanced and was still in the 'planning' stages. This story has been nothing but hype. I don't see how you can possibly believe that the media tries to downplay terrorists.

---

The police didn't have enough information to arrest them until recently. The terrorists were under surveillance. The terrorists, like most terrorists, waited until the very last stage to get their hands on the money, an event that had a lot to do with the arrests. They almost always wait until the last stage to get the money necessary because, as in this case, it makes them look very suspicious. If they had not been followed for a year and a half, there would be a lot more innocent dead people right now. Their plan involved blowing up a forty mile fuel line, and that is the one part the experts are saying the terrorists could not have accomplished. Their plan would have still resulted in a whole lot of innocent dead people.

The fact that they are not members of Al Qaeda is not evidence that they should not have been followed and arrested. We are dealing with terrorists groups other than just Al Qaeda, as evidenced by this situation.

Imagine having a plan to fly somewhere this weekend and having to have a layover at the JFK Airport. Do you want suspected terrorists there to be under surveillance, or do you want them to be ignored?

You thinking about it backwards. Its not that we shouldn't watch them because their not al Qaeda. Its that al qaeda is never linked to any of the random criminals we catch so we should be starting wars over in other countries looking for them. Especially when the countries don't have anything to do with al qaeda OR the criminals anyway.

No way, when you join the army, it is not to kill, it is to defend your country from death. Those who served in the military by a non-draft deserved to be praised every day, not just on memorial day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xcrissxcrossx

No way, when you join the army, it is not to kill, it is to defend your country from death. Those who served in the military by a non-draft deserved to be praised every day, not just on memorial day.

---

I like your thinking. They should all be thanked though.

There is no question about it, when you join the arm its to kill. Now hopefully your defending your county at the same time but its still your job to kill people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

There is no question about it, when you join the arm its to kill. Now hopefully your defending your county at the same time but its still your job to kill people.

---

Alright, you obviously don't at all understand what you're talking about, which has suddenly put your previous posts in perspective.

I don't? What do you think the job of a soldier is? To dance around and plant flowers? No, your job is to kill people. You can say its 'defense' but how do you defend yourself? By killing the enemy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alric

I don't? What do you think the job of a soldier is? To dance around and plant flowers? No, your job is to kill people. You can say its 'defense' but how do you defend yourself? By killing the enemy.

---

Some one bring in the cowbell

:cowbell:

Now I feel better.

There's an important concept called "deterrence". If you are weak and defenseless then you invite intrusion. There's also something called preparedness.

You might have a point, if we hadn't been at war near constantly for the past 50 years. And before you say no we havn't. yes I am counting any kind of conflict where we send people over to fight, even if it wasn't offically declared a war. The fact is you join the army your going to be sent out to fight and yes kill people.

I think you are doing a grave injustice to the military forces when you say that the job is to kill.
You are correct that some regiments are indeed trained to kill. However the many many other things that our military and armed forces do on a daily basis is totally over looked with your perspective.
Also, Because your job is to train to defend your country, which like you had said, is often is to kill the enemy.
Do you think that most of those men or woman want to actually kill another person?