Thread: False Witchhunt on the Sacred Mushroom

I have been wrestling with the illogic and inconsistency with drug attitudes for a long time. Tobacco is an addictive killer substance (kills 1/3 of its users and hooks practically everybody who tries it), alchohol is a big time addictive killer substance, and psilocybin is not a killer substance or addictive. But guess which one the religious fanatics go after. That is why I think public drug attitudes have a lot to do with religion. Alcohol and tobacco don't have anything to do with "spirituality", but psilocybin mushrooms and marijuana do. They are seen as "false idols", and that is why they are illegal in the United States and hated by religious fanatics in Holland. It's all about whether a drug supposedly makes God jealous, not how deadly it is.

Hey SKA. Yeah, every time I read something about some idiot foreigner on magic mushrooms I am like "ahh, some bigot is going to make a big deal out of this".

They have NO ground to stand on. Alcohol causes a THOUSAND time more cases stupid behavior then mushrooms (idiots beating each other up drunk). Tobacco kills thousands more.

I am thinking about writing a letter to "metro" or "Spits" (free papers in the Netherlands they give out on train stations and such). I however hope we have enough un-biased people in the government that actually want factual evidence before they ban something : /

Gawd, I hate the CDA and the CU.. And the VVD of course... and the PvdA lately... (Hating the SGP is like, without a doubt).

*political parties in the Netherlands*

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And UV is right, Christian-fascists don't want people to think differently. Tobacco and alcohol don't take people out of their little bubble of close-mindedness, marijuana and psychedelics do. That, and you can make far more money off tobacco and alcohol.. : /

I can't believe that people can't see how illogical it is that tobacco and alcohol are legal but marijuana and other things aren't. And if someone dies of a 'drug': OH NOE! If someone dies of alcohol (totally not a drug of course, becauseee... people decided not to call it a drug :/), then it's just their fault or something, not the substance's. It never is the substance's fault.

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Also, there is a passage in the bible that goes like "All herbs and plants are put upon this earth for all of mankind" or something like that... Christians can't be for banning mushrooms and marijuana, or they would be greatly hypocritical.. oh, they are : / =)

Exactly. That is exactly what it is: a war on other people's value. Don't revear YOUR God. Revear MY God. That's it really.

And they would probably die from disappointment and terror if they found out just HOW far out of God's intent they are acting. God = Nature = The Source of Consciousness = Jah = Gaia...etc. They are burning and banning plants of God. As if they disagree with God.

How silly is this: American, armed officers being busy with what? Busting armed and dangerious criminals? Protecting Civilians from Mafioso? Evacuating Civillians out of harms way when rivers have flooded the land?

No, American Armed officers BURNING a field of plants because they think these plants are "BAD PLANTS". Why don't they tell the mushrooms not to grow?

Originally Posted by SKA

Exactly. That is exactly what it is: a war on other people's value. Don't revear YOUR God. Revear MY God. That's it really.

And they would probably die from disappointment and terror if they found out just HOW far out of God's intent they are acting. God = Nature = The Source of Consciousness = Jah = Gaia...etc. They are burning and banning plants of God. As if they disagree with God.

How silly is this: American, armed officers being busy with what? Busting armed and dangerious criminals? Protecting Civilians from Mafioso? Evacuating Civillians out of harms way when rivers have flooded the land?

No, American Armed officers BURNING a field of plants because they think these plants are "BAD PLANTS". Why don't they tell the mushrooms not to grow?

They could just shoot the plants:p.

This is a very tricky subject. I personally dont believe the American population can handle the legalization of drugs. It would just raise a generation of drug addicts. Now, since i dont believe in god, i am free to say that a plant can be a terrible thing. Look at the coca and poppy plants.

Moderation is the key. I would still be doing blow if i thought i could moderate it. If we could use drugs just to get a break, it would be fine.

I feel like if you are doing drugs, you are creating artificial happiness, instead of creating your own happiness. I think that may be the reason why i grew to hate drugs, especially weed. I know, i'm a turncoat.

FREEDOM!!! You should have the freedom to do these plants, even if they can do damage. Americans have the right to own guns, right? Why not own plants, all of them? Tobacco and alcohol should be illegal either. Those who are going to be stupid with them are going to die. Let them!! The smart people will raise smart kids, but they will also have the freedom to get high.

The biggest problem is the transition period. We cant just make drugs legal overnight.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

The biggest problem is the transition period. We cant just make drugs legal overnight.

Maybe we could trade alcohol for marijuana for a while so people can get adjusted. Congress could pass a bill that says that at 12:00 a.m. on September 1, 2008, alcohol is illegal nationwide but marijuana is completely legal. After society gets used to legal pot, we make alcohol legal again. We could do a similar trade with mushrooms and tobacco. Do you think Republicans would be ready to put down their beer and cigarettes for a few years to make way for pot and mushrooms?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Maybe we could trade alcohol for marijuana for a while so people can get adjusted. Congress could pass a bill that says that at 12:00 a.m. on September 1, 2008, alcohol is illegal nationwide but marijuana is completely legal. After society gets used to legal pot, we make alcohol legal again. We could do a similar trade with mushrooms and tobacco. Do you think Republicans would be ready to put down their beer and cigarettes for a few years to make way for pot and mushrooms?

I dont think the legalization of pot would do much damage. It would sure keep a lot of people out of jail. Waste of tax dollars if you ask me. But you're definately not taking away my Steel Reserve and Camel Mellows

As to your question, definately not. The Republicans are to religiously motivated (or at least they say they are) to "allow drugs to poision our pure children". They keep cigs and booze legal because they have pretty much always been legal (hence, "conservative") But, afterall i couldnt say i would give up beer and cigarettes for shrooms and pot, considering i dont like pot.

At this point in American culture, i see the liberal movement as the main problem, but, there will be a time when conservatives will need a serious change. The problem is that neither party is willing to budge. Hopefully this will be their downfall that leads to a moderate party.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Maybe we could trade alcohol for marijuana for a while so people can get adjusted. Congress could pass a bill that says that at 12:00 a.m. on September 1, 2008, alcohol is illegal nationwide but marijuana is completely legal. After society gets used to legal pot, we make alcohol legal again. We could do a similar trade with mushrooms and tobacco. Do you think Republicans would be ready to put down their beer and cigarettes for a few years to make way for pot and mushrooms?

The tobacco companies and the alcohol companies would not be happy about that, and our politicians would probably be bought by them if some one ever tried to pass a law.

Hey, Nerou, didn't you leave DV a little while ago?

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

They could just shoot the plants:p.

This is a very tricky subject. I personally dont believe the American population can handle the legalization of drugs. It would just raise a generation of drug addicts. Now, since i dont believe in god, i am free to say that a plant can be a terrible thing. Look at the coca and poppy plants.

Moderation is the key. I would still be doing blow if i thought i could moderate it. If we could use drugs just to get a break, it would be fine.

I feel like if you are doing drugs, you are creating artificial happiness, instead of creating your own happiness. I think that may be the reason why i grew to hate drugs, especially weed. I know, i'm a turncoat.

FREEDOM!!! You should have the freedom to do these plants, even if they can do damage. Americans have the right to own guns, right? Why not own plants, all of them? Tobacco and alcohol should be illegal either. Those who are going to be stupid with them are going to die. Let them!! The smart people will raise smart kids, but they will also have the freedom to get high.

The biggest problem is the transition period. We cant just make drugs legal overnight.

Wow! I disagree, agree, disagree and agree with you

I believe in God, but in a very Individual, abstract and openminded manner: I am just as Free to say plants can be pure evil: What about Datura? In my view God is the source of all creation. The Creator. But Good and evil A.K.A. Morals are a human concept and has got nothing to do with God IMHO.

I half agree half disagree with you on the Artificial happyness thing: This lies in the point of Moderation and Self-responsibility you mentioned with which I really agree: Some people seek to escape their problems and try to find happyness and peace in "drugs" They will not find it untill they face their problems and solve them, not run away from them. These people usually don't mind doing heavily toxic and mentally depleating drugs and are very careless and wreckless with their own physical and mental health.
Other people on the otherhand, like myself, do "drugs" as a means of Mental/Spiritual exploration and enlightenment. And they DO find Enlightenment in it. And what a pleasure it is ; a Sincere, Integre and pleasure. They only do drugs in moderation and drugs which are responsible to take in being non- or not significantly-toxic, and stay away from harmfully toxic, mentally depleating drugs.

WEED actually is one of those responsible, nonharmfull, mentally enriching drugs. However it has a great potential for abuse by people who do not wish to face and deal with their problems.
Alcohol is the most toxic, mentally depleating and addictive of them all and yet it is so socially accepted and widely available that this harddrug has the greatest potential for abuse.

Responsibility and awareness are the Key: Someone who is Conscious of his/her actions, their consequences and beares the full responsibility of them would never use "Bad drugs" or even "good drugs" in an ashaming, abusive manner: Escapism


I can't stress enough that there's Drugs and there's "Drugs"
And no You shouldn't ban any of them, unless they are as serious as Heroin, cuz it would lead to a huge rise of drug related criminality, people ingesting fraudulent drugs mixed with very dangerious additives, people picking poisonous wild mushrooms that are magic mushroom-look a likes and people being uninformed of the facts leading to overdoses and dehydration.

Instead acceptable, responsible drugs should be legalised, but then the public should be properly informed of the facts and thoroughly made conscious of the Risks of Irresponsible drugs and Irresponsible use of responsible drugs.

That and STRICT regulations on the sale of these drugs. Smartshops should not allow anyone under certain ages to buy their products, they should provide ALOT of information on their products for curious people who are new or otherwise uneducated on the drugs sold there.

Maybe this would be an awesomely good plan:
If people are interrested in doing Drugs, they should first follow a series of Educational classes that extensively explain the effects, risks, abuse potential, physical effect..etc of each and every individual drug. Once they finish this Education they have to pass an exam that sais a whole lot about a person's responsibility and knowledge of the educated facts. Once they pass they receive a card with their ID stored in a magnetic strip. These cards can be used to allow access into smartshops. This way you make sure that people don't do drugs, even acceptable drugs, when they are clearly not responsible or educated enough. Such a card should be the only access into a smartshop.

How about that people

I had one experience with mushrooms at a low dose many years ago when I was in college. It was a positive, pleasant experience that I felt was overall beneficial to me as an individual. What a shame that I can't do this legally here in the States.

Good stuff SKA. The bold makes it easy to respond.

Moderation and Responsibility are 2 things that dont come easily for me. If it does for you, then you are a lucky man. But, yes, they are key for correct drug use.

WEED: Got boring to me. Like, remember when you first started smoking, and you wanted to go on adventures and shit? Everything was meaningful and funny? That all stopped for me.

ALCOHOL: Really is a poision. I still love it though. Now that does make everything fun. Especially rafting down the Chattahooche.

RESPONSIBILITY and AWARNESS are the two biggest problems with drugs in America. First of all, drug education here is absolutely stupid. They dont tell us the real truth about what drugs do, and they just over-emphasize the negatives. For example, they dont explain that cocaine is addictive because it is SO awesome when you are high and SO bad when you are not, which throws off brain chemistry. They dont say this because they dont want you to know that it feels good. Instead they just say "Its bad and will take all your money". Proper drug education is key to AWARNESS. RESPONSIBILITY, on the other hand, comes from being wise. For someone like me, responsibility means not doing drugs.

SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT: By drugs is suspect to me. I believe drugs can create artificial beliefs, or delusions. When i smoked pot, i loved that it helped me think outside the box. It really opened my mind. BUT, i started realizing that i would believe stupid stuff when i was high that made perfect sense to me. Its those artificial beliefs involved with drugs that you have to watch out for.

I dont know about your "drug school" idea. It just seems a little far-fetched. Buut maybe it could work.

http://www.cannabis.net/weblife.html

This is an interesting experiment using spiders that have been given certain substances and allowed to build a web under the influence. It doesn't use mushrooms, but I thought it was pertinent because of your comment on how some legal substances are more harmful than the illegal ones. Take a look at the caffeine web for a good example of that.

Fascinating link about the spiders, Xaqaria. I'd be interested to see just how varied "sober" spiders' webs can be, which would further illustrate the influence these substances have on them.

It's quite interresting to see the spider webs under influence allthough it doesn't really say jack shit about the relation to what these substances do to humans: Spiders have completely different brain chemistry which is uncompairable to the human brain chemistry. Needless to say the effect on spiderwebs will not represent the effect it has on people.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Good stuff SKA. The bold makes it easy to respond.

Moderation and Responsibility are 2 things that dont come easily for me. If it does for you, then you are a lucky man. But, yes, they are key for correct drug use.

Yeah you see people will continue using drugs anyways: It'd rather see that people are properly educated and drugs strictly regulated instead of banning everything that might make people high, propagating unfactual messages and suggestions based on crude lies and corny musicians singing corny songs in schools about how to say no and drugs are bad hmmmkay. We've all seen how well that works
Harmreduction always works better. If you know where you can find sources on this information why don't you take a look at the percentages of drug use amongst the population in the Netherlands where drugs are much less taboo and many natural psychedelics are legal. Now take a look for the percentage of use of these same substances in the UK, the US, France and Germany. And many more countries with similair zero tolerance drug-laws. Beforehand put a pillow on the ground to soften your jaw's fall.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT: By drugs is suspect to me. I believe drugs can create artificial beliefs, or delusions. When i smoked pot, i loved that it helped me think outside the box. It really opened my mind. BUT, i started realizing that i would believe stupid stuff when i was high that made perfect sense to me. Its those artificial beliefs involved with drugs that you have to watch out for.

Well I don't know what exactly you mean by "artificial beliefs" and delusions, but I'm guessing you mean all the creative, great ideas that arise in you while high. Most people get sober and think: "Gee that was a really stupid idea. I was out of my head" when becomming sober again. Not me though. When I get high I look outside of the box, pick one of these really great ideas and then I crawl back inside the box to make a drawing, painting or clay/cartboard model of what I've just "seen". It's really beneficial if Creativity is what you plan on doing for a living. Turning "Artificial beliefs" A.K.A. Fantasy into Concrete Reality; That would describe in a nutshell what the work of an Artist is

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

I dont know about your "drug school" idea. It just seems a little far-fetched. But maybe it could work.

Hey; If it's stupid, but it works, it ain't stupid.

Could somebody who supports the current U.S. drug laws please fill in these blanks? Psychedelic mushrooms and marijuana should be illegal because ___________________________, but alcohol and tobacco should be legal because _________________________________. That is what I can never get answered. Every time politicians are asked questions like that, they talk about how bad "drugs" are and never get to the point.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could somebody who supports the current U.S. drug laws please fill in these blanks? Psychedelic mushrooms and marijuana should be illegal because ___________________________, but alcohol and tobacco should be legal because _________________________________. That is what I can never get answered. Every time politicians are asked questions like that, they talk about how bad "drugs" are and never get to the point.

Before anyone gets angry at my reply and starts throwing stones, rotten tomatoes, eggs, dead kittens, pitchforks, surly remarks and a host of other assorted projectiles, I ask that you bear in mind I am not saying I agree with the sentiment below. I'm simply explaining the logic (or lack thereof) behind the enforcement of drugs within the U.S.

A man (or woman) can be an alcoholic, he can beat his children and be an otherwise unsavoury and unscrupulous bastard. But he is still perceived to be a benefit to society because he goes to work and pays his taxes (which is the key difference here between him and pot smokers), he is believed to be a productive member of his community despite the fact that he regularly decorates his children and spouse in bruises.

The pot smoker on the other hand (again, I'm not saying this is how I view this, I'm simply explaining the government's overall viewpoint) is wasting away, he's a lazy unproductive member of society, even if he wouldn't harm a flea. Consequently, there's a very good chance he isn't paying taxes.

It's purey about perception here. The government isn't concerned with statistics or scientific differences between one drug and the next. Smoking marijuana places people in a certain social bracket. If you smoke pot you are thought to have a certain predisposition; you're "one of them". Whether that's true or not isn't important to the U.S. government.

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just explaining the rationale.

Pwcca, that is probably the best explanation possible. My brother has argued that point, and it probably has a lot to do with the government's rationale. It probably has something to do with the overall productivity of our capitalist system. If everybody turned into a lazy ass pot-head, our big system of business and wealth production would collapse. Where I disagree with the rationale is that I think pretty much everybody who would be a pot-head if pot were legal is one right now. It's a very easy drug to find, and everybody knows what it does. But it is true that if everybody smoked pot every day, a whole lot of ambition in American society would be lost. Mushrooms are probably viewed as something so related to pot that they are illegal too. My other problem with the whole thing is that politicians never make points like yours. All they say is, "Uh, drugs are bad. Pot should be illegal because, uh, just look at what crack does. Drink responsibly."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My other problem with the whole thing is that politicians never make points like yours. All they say is, "Uh, drugs are bad. Pot should be illegal because, uh, just look at what crack does. Drink responsibly."

Any "responsible" politician (and note the use of quotation marks which suggests sarcasm here) could not make statements like my own. Doing so would peel the impenetrable layer of wool from the eyes of the masses and consequently reveal themselves to be hipocrates. They need falsehoods as in your example, "drugs are bad", because it helps to support their agenda and give meaning to an otherwise meaningless affair.

Marijuana and other associated narcotics (psilocybin, peyote, et al) are thought by right-winged conservatives to be for people who wear tie-dye teeshirts, protest against governements (this one is very important here), invest in "unsavoury" pursuits such as occultism and so on. If you smoke pot, you fall under this category (according to the government) and therefore make a poor representation for the country.

Alcohol has none of these connotations.

But we can't exactly expect the government to casually say "Well folks, pot has a bad image and beer doesn't so we're keeping the former illegal and the latter not." They'd be openly calling themselves hipocrates, stating that the only reason something is enforced (and that people who sell a plant go to prison longer than an alcohol-consuming rapist) is based purely on labels, on images, on the perceptions of lemmings and cattle. And so it goes, year after year, decade after decade, we are brain-fed blatant misinformation about the consequences of drugs. I watched a T.V. series not long ago (Prison Break) where in it one of the main characters describes how we was en route to kill someone. "I got high that night", he said as we see a picture of him toking on weed before drawing out his pistol. "It was the only way I could go through with it." Here's a perfect example of the propoganda and misinformation surrounding marijuana. If I were going to go kill someone, the absolute LAST thing I would do prior to the act is smoke a joint! Isn't it convenient that the character did not say "I got wasted (alcohol) that night -- it was the only way I could go through with it"?

It isn't difficult to wonder where propogandists like the U.S. government get their influence from.

"The great masses of the people... more easily fall victims to a big lie than a small one"

— Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf

Hehe, good point Pwcca. I think hippies gave a bad name to pot and the varied psycadelics. Conservatives are probably scared that these drugs make people touchy-feely-liberals, but we all know this isnt true.

Keep in mind that the people in charge of our country are from a different generation. They hold more "values" than we do. I think this stuff will change in about 20 or 30 years.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

http://www.cannabis.net/weblife.html

This is an interesting experiment using spiders that have been given certain substances and allowed to build a web under the influence. It doesn't use mushrooms, but I thought it was pertinent because of your comment on how some legal substances are more harmful than the illegal ones. Take a look at the caffeine web for a good example of that.

Awesome info. You can also see a video about the same thing here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

About the main discussion here; I do find it strange. In Britain, there's a huge problem with massive numbers of binge drinkers forming mobs and whatnot. And somebody was shot just today over cigarettes. Yet I never hear of a single incident involving other drugs. It does seem to me that there is a strange bias.

What I do not understand is why people have this bias and why it came to be. Could anybody explain?

Oh. I suppose it's just that you're all raving then. :0

They keep cigs and booze legal because they have pretty much always been legal (hence, "conservative")

So has weed, psychedelics, coke, smack etc...until approximately this century.

Potheads don't have jobs? I don't know one who doesn't have a job, and they all pay their taxes. Loss of ambition? The only one I know who is lazy was just as lazy before he ever took his first toke. I know plenty of sober peeps who are the laziest slackers on the face of the earth. You sure you guys weren't talking about smackheads?

Marijuana got put down relatively fast. Things like LSD and shrooms didnt even get popular until the 70's. Tobacco and alcohol have been around for thousands of years (atleast for alcohol). For cigarettes, nobody knew they were bad for you until the 40's. Thats the difference between cigs/booze and psycadellics.

Originally Posted by Lamneth-25

Potheads don't have jobs? I don't know one who doesn't have a job, and they all pay their taxes. Loss of ambition? The only one I know who is lazy was just as lazy before he ever took his first toke.

Stick around.

Smoking pot doesn't make you lazy. At least, it doesn't make most people lazy, I am sure that some people do become lazy for it. I think lazy in general just use more pot.

The 'omg pot ruins teh society'-argument is just silly.

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By the way, Just redicoulous: This weekend, I saw om some internet news site something like

"German man found unconscious in hotel room in Amsterdam. The man smoked Weed, Hash, drank alcohol, took magic mushrooms and shot herion. The man had to be taken to the hospital."

Okay, fine tourists do fucked up stuff in Amsterdam.

But then the report goes on "there have been more incidents with Magic Mushrooms the past few months..blabla".

What the fuck? What does this still have to do with Magic Mushrooms? Just taking Heroin is stupid and can get you in a Hospital, and even just drinking and doing weed can fuck you up. Still, they act like this has anything to do with Magic Mushrooms. Just bad, biased reporting, if you ask me.