The End

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Never

*Sigh*

That's what books are for. Opinions were called for...opinions were given.

Yes I love "facts". That is why I read all day. I also like to speculate based on what I know. My reasoning leads me to several possibilities, and several impossibilities. This is called philosophy.

---

Oh, so that's what books are for! Thanks for clearing that up.

But if you don't want facts on the board, you might want to refrain from presenting your own opinions as such. This started with your comment "I'll only say that ceasing to exist is impossible," which isn't an opinion, but an assumption declared as fact. There's nothing wrong with Neruo pointing that out, even if he did it with the intention to provoke.

So yes, let's stick to opinions and identify them as such. It would have been much clearer to all of us if you had said "I believe that ceasing to exist is impossible."

I see your point; misunderstandings are usually the source of every problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Never

*Sigh*

That's what books are for. Opinions were called for...opinions were given.

Yes I love "facts". That is why I read all day. I also like to speculate based on what I know. My reasoning leads me to several possibilities, and several impossibilities. This is called philosophy.

---

With the 'several possibilities' you came close, but you just Crashed-and-burned with the 'impossibilities'. The opposite of 'possibility' isn't 'impossibility'. 'Fact' and 'impossibility' are opposites. I personally thing dealing with such absolute "THAT is impossible", is quite un-philosophical. Nothing is ever impossible. (just sometimes, very very very very unlikely).

I mean, you can personally conclude that you find it very very very very very improbable that there Isn't a soul/afterlife. But you can't really be sure. You could be in The Matrix (Oh no!:0) And be tricked into thinking there certainly was an afterlife, while there actually wasn't :0

Nothing is impossible. Maybe I am actually a grizzly-bear. :0

-

Conclusion: Absolutes are bad :0 (yet sometimes hard no to use. It's fun. "YOU SUCK", is my favorite absolutists statement, I would have to say. ^_^)

You are impossibly picky about words, lol.

Okay, so the actuality that "nothing" can exist is very very very very very very unlikely "in my opinion" because if it did exist, it would probably be something. I hope I said, I mean typed, it right that time.

I am just being a smartass BTW. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Never

You are impossibly picky about words, lol.

Okay, so the actuality that "nothing" can exist is very very very very very very unlikely "in my opinion" because if it did exist, it would probably be something. I hope I said, I mean typed, it right that time.

I am just being a smartass BTW. :P

---

It is my general interpretation of what I deem to be the facts that yes, yes you are being a smartass. : )

-

Besides your somewhat... confusing argument against 'nothing':

How does dieing even cause 'nothing'? The atoms still remain. Being conscious is just the result of some electric signals in your brain. if your brain it, lets say, splattered over the pavement, you ain't gonna being very much conscious anymore :)

I mean, I don't really see a difference between that, and pulling the plug out of a computer... and splattering it over the pavement. Besides that the stuff that goes on in a brain is more complicated.

It is my belief that our conscious, our being doesn't really materialistically exist, yet it includes nothing meta-physical: Our conscious is electric signals, it is matter acting in a certain way, it just comes forth out of our mind's activities. It's pretty hard to explain, while actually it's really simple...

Anyhow.

If you 'just feel' like there is an afterlife, there isn't much I can say that is going to change that any time soon ^__^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neruo

It is my general interpretation of what I deem to be the facts that yes, yes you are being a smartass. : )

-

Besides your somewhat... confusing argument against 'nothing':

How does dieing even cause 'nothing'? The atoms still remain. Being conscious is just the result of some electric signals in your brain. if your brain it, lets say, splattered over the pavement, you ain't gonna being very much conscious anymore :)

I mean, I don't really see a difference between that, and pulling the plug out of a computer... and splattering it over the pavement. Besides that the stuff that goes on in a brain is more complicated.

It is my belief that our conscious, our being doesn't really materialistically exist, yet it includes nothing meta-physical: Our conscious is electric signals, it is matter acting in a certain way, it just comes forth out of our mind's activities. It's pretty hard to explain, while actually it's really simple...

Anyhow.

If you 'just feel' like there is an afterlife, there isn't much I can say that is going to change that any time soon ^__^

---

I know exactly what you mean, and i think most atheists do. Since i would portray religious people of being incapable of thinking outside the box, it is very hard to explain. The atheists see a human as a compilation of matter, whereas the religious see us as a spiritual being. Its all about perspective. You had a good explaination, though.

Quote:

---

How does dieing even cause 'nothing'? The atoms still remain. Being conscious is just the result of some electric signals in your brain. if your brain it, lets say, splattered over the pavement, you ain't gonna being very much conscious anymore

---

Indeed to understand where I am coming from you need to believe that part of what we call the mind and the self is actually made up of something real. While it is completely true that the brain is like an advanced computer, I do not believe it is the source of everything we experience; just as the radio is not the source of what it recieves.

The visible light spectrum is about .00001% of the actual span. We can measure a bit more than that, but for the most part it is a mystery. This has not much to do with what I am saying except that light is a great example of what I am talking about; a nearly nonphysical item. To actually explain my reason for what I conclude would take too long and mean nothing to anyone other than me.

That said, I think much of our mind is an illusion created by the brain, but this is only scratching the surface. Anyhow, if you take what I say as theory, then in this theory what is real cannot be truly destroyed but converted into something else or "scattered", just as our bodies return to the elements they came from.

On a side note, I am not religious either, and the thought of non existence would not be a motivation for making my self feel better even had I believed in it. In fact, it would be much easier to just not be than it would be to continue forever (not that such is what I am implying), I just cannot dismiss what I believe to be a multitude of personal evidence to the contrary. I think we do continue, but as far as identity is concerned, I am not so sure that is maintained at all. Perhaps this can be considered "death" to some, to me it is just nature. This would also explain our lack of awareness before birth.

I see another situation where words such as consciousness and self can be seen a few different ways. If the death of "identity" constitutes "ceasing to exist" in this case, then perhaps we are actually in agreement. As you can see, there is still a big question mark as to what the hell the "self" really is. Much of what we think of ourselves is nonsense and only a passing illusion.

Never, i agree with you on some parts. I have always doubted that 2 people can percieve the world the same. I think this probably stems fromt the fact that no 2 people have lived the exact same lives. Even biologically identical twins are often dramatically different from eachother.

Hmmmm. Well. I think now we live on, and the choose when to be recycled into another consciousness, or cease to exist.

Altough, now that I really think about it, it's quite pointless to think about all of this now. Just make the most of what you have an truly be happy to be alive. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liquid Skill

How can you come to terms with something so... Melancholy.

---

Because it's true. It doesn't matter how melancholy it is. What am I supposed to say? "Well, it's true, but I don't like the sound of it, so I'll just pretend it's not"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Never

I'll only say that ceasing to exist is impossible. We simply change into something else.

---

Yes, we change into decaying organic matter. The matter that composes my body won't stop existing, but eventually my body will. My body is made of matter, but not itself matter, but rather an object. Objects can be created and destroyed. My body and my consciousness are both objects. (clue: both my body and consciousness were created)

I think death is like a coma, and that when it happens there is just black, no thoughts, senses, memories, etc. Of course no one knows so I wouldn't worry about it.

I think death is exactly the same as life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Never

Indeed to understand where I am coming from you need to believe that part of what we call the mind and the self is actually made up of something real. While it is completely true that the brain is like an advanced computer, I do not believe it is the source of everything we experience; just as the radio is not the source of what it recieves.

---

What if you though the radio was playing, but it was actually playing from the CD? I see no reason to believe anything of the human mind lies outside of it.

Have I gone into the evolution-side of this already? You believe in evolution, right? Where in evolution would a mammal, fish or bacteria start to receive this 'radio signal', this mind-outside-the-physical-brain?

Quote:

---

The visible light spectrum is about .00001% of the actual span. We can measure a bit more than that, but for the most part it is a mystery. This has not much to do with what I am saying except that light is a great example of what I am talking about; a nearly nonphysical item. To actually explain my reason for what I conclude would take too long and mean nothing to anyone other than me.

---

Is it a mystery? Light, infra-red and all those kind of waves and such really aren't much of a mystery any more. The 'mind' is like light? Strange, light ar just small particles moving in a wavy motion...

Quote:

---

That said, I think much of our mind is an illusion created by the brain, but this is only scratching the surface. Anyhow, if you take what I say as theory, then in this theory what is real cannot be truly destroyed but converted into something else or "scattered", just as our bodies return to the elements they came from.

---

Well, here you do have a point. The mind, and everything we see IS a creation by the brain. All that what I see, does actually not exist in the way I see it. That clock on the wall isn't grey, I just call it gray. It isn't even round. Actually, the clock isn't all that much different from the wall, it both are a bunch of Neutrons, Protons and Electrons flying around.

Anyhow, yes, matter or energy can not be destroyed, just scattered. However, here I think your reasoning is wrong. The 'mind' and such doesn't exist in the Atoms and Particles and Energy, it IS the configuration of those Atoms and Particles and Energies. I recognise that clock, not because of it's atoms and energies, but because of the configuration of them. That means, that if you blend all the atoms, particles and energy , there isn't a Clock any more. The clock hasn't diluted or changed into particles, the clock as left, has turned completely non-existent in the subjective human spectrum of mind.

It's kind of hard to explain. I hope you understand. All I am saying is that qualities of all things do not reside within their particles, but exist only within their configuration, their setting, when seen by an organism that has a certain way to observe those configurations as things.

Quote:

---

On a side note, I am not religious either, and the thought of non existence would not be a motivation for making my self feel better even had I believed in it. In fact, it would be much easier to just not be than it would be to continue forever (not that such is what I am implying), I just cannot dismiss what I believe to be a multitude of personal evidence to the contrary. I think we do continue, but as far as identity is concerned, I am not so sure that is maintained at all. Perhaps this can be considered "death" to some, to me it is just nature. This would also explain our lack of awareness before birth.

---

Yay. Kind of mainstream 'we never really die' kind of pantheistic world-view. Sounds really nice, and better than religion, but utterly distanciated from proof.

Quote:

---

I see another situation where words such as consciousness and self can be seen a few different ways. If the death of "identity" constitutes "ceasing to exist" in this case, then perhaps we are actually in agreement. As you can see, there is still a big question mark as to what the hell the "self" really is. Much of what we think of ourselves is nonsense and only a passing illusion.

---

Well, I think that at the very core we do agree. You just see the living on of everything a person once was, all his atoms and 'mind-stuff' as an extension of that persons life and/or mind. I draw the line there, and stop calling it 'life' or 'existence', with or without identity. And no longer call 'mind' what is not physically connected and thus probably not active.