Why are drugs illegal?

WOwo..
Actually discussing a "bigger" issue. ( although on a quantum level a golf ball's molecules may be able to be manipulated as such to ..eeh never mind. ;) )

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Originally Posted by Tjoe

Unfortunately, this country has become so dependent on having the government nanny its' citizens, that parents are depending on laws and legislation to 'protect' their kids - rather than do this thing that most middle-aged and older folk remember as "parenting."

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Very well put. It should be apparent to all of us. :P
So Joe you see this lack of parenting coupled with the fact that more and more dangers surface daily.
It IS not the government's role to handle this, parents are not, Who should?

I feel many people argue blind about many civil liberties. It is the nature of us having them. The risk of them being taken away often results in that. The same would be for me and gun rights. I however recognize problematic issues. Many are simply not pertinent to the actual issue. That is what the anti drug, gun, abortion advocate wishes. To pick up where the weaknesses stem, like salvia for example or high cap magazines. Not really the issue. But it gets the "ANIT's" foot in the door.

So what then of a real threat? When is something determined as such?
Does salvia lead to harder drugs? is it used irresponsably? Is it harmful? It seems not enough to justify a felony does it.
Is it rhetorical questions or a substantial questions? Are we better off with drugs? With guns? If not now, when? Ever?
Should a preemptive process ever be an issue or should the issue result in the process, or should it still not because it is our god given right?
By process I mean legislative action.

~thoughts?

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Never does a man think he is more right than when he is engaged in a debate. Never does a man need to question his own motives more when debate turns to quarrel.

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Originally Posted by Howie

WOwo..
Actually discussing a "bigger" issue. ( although on a quantum level a golf ball's molecules may be able to be manipulated as such to ..eeh never mind. ;) )

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You know I used a lot of analogies. I discussed the dangers of recreational driving, skateboarding, hang gliding, roller blading, and other things you think should be legal. I used that perspective to try to get you to understand/admit why salvia should similarly be legal. I focussed mainly on golf because it served the same analogical purpose as the other activities I kept mentioning. I couldn't get you to go very far. You kept focussing on an element (impairment) that is often associated with danger, yet you would not EVER translate that into how the element makes salvia more dangerous than those other activities, ones you think should be legal. You have a double standard, and your double standard is the same as the one those state legislators have. I know you get that by now. You have been in checkmate for a while, but if you want to try again, you can start by responding to those points I posted repeatedly and you kept dodging. If you are not going to do that, then don't waste my time by communicating to me directly or indirectly about this subject.

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

My stance on #1
"People who know the basics..." - yes, I would think that's usually the case. Being new to Salvia I took a ridiculously amount of precautions when first trying it. So far it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I consider myself still 'unexperienced' with it.

"unless they are like those kids in the video..." (forget the damn golf ball for a minute) Let's just say kids that don't know the basics and misuse it (i.e at a party, with alcohol, or as a substitute for marijuana). The undisputed fact is that these kids ARE a threat to themselves and likely those around them. Now, is Salvia the root of the problem? Only in the same extent as a bullet is to a gun in the hands of a person who doesn't respect or understand the dangers of a loaded gun. A bullet by itself is pretty useless - as is an empty gun.

Unfortunately, this country has become so dependent on having the government nanny its' citizens, that parents are depending on laws and legislation to 'protect' their kids - rather than do this thing that most middle-aged and older folk remember as "parenting".

Education about these drugs would be the most potent and effective solution IMO.

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Yes, education would do the trick, and so would just putting a short warning label on the packages. So would putting a little pamphlet in the packages. Banning it will do what it does with the other drugs. It will guarantee that warning labels and pamphlets do not come with the packages, and a lot of kids will get their hands on it and have no idea what they are doing. Extra ingredients which may or may not be dangerous can easily get mixed in with the salvia, and people will be in legal trouble for getting caught with it. As it is in several states, possession is a felony, which means people can go to prison for it and be in all kinds of danger. People get hurt in prison.

Keep in mind that nobody in this thread has come up with a case of where salvia actually got somebody hurt or killed. No jumping out of windows, no wrecking cars because they saw a demon, no walking into traffic, no out of the ordinary whims to jump on a roof with a pogo stick leading to a broken neck, nothing. But golf on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

My stance on #2
I don't play golf.

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

My stance on #3
See stance on #2.

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You don't have to play golf to understand the analogy. The analogy proves double standard. It would have worked the same way if I had used recreational driving, hang gliding, skateboarding, and other activities pretty much nobody wants to ban. Recreational driving is probably the analogy I should have used because it results in a whole lot more death than golf does. Who wants to ban it?

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

So, you got a depressed kid who killed himself. Parent wouldn't dare blame herself for not helping her son, so why not a substance which he used. Could have just as easily been a bottle of Jack, or a case of Heineken. You'd never see a law passed to ban those.

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If you are talking about the guy who inspired the passing of salvia bans, I think that is basically what happened. The mother would not accept that her son killed himself because he was drunk and depressed. She had to use some rarely known hallucinogen to blame everything on. The parents of people who commit suicide experience what is probably the worst pain possible. It is an awful situation. In my experience, they have an excuse or alternate explanation to run with in every case. In this case, it is salvia.

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Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

13 year-old + shotgun! Parenting?

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Getting that kid to understand the gun that was in the house would have made the difference. Blaming the situation on salvia is outlandish.

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Yes, education would do the trick, and so would just putting a short warning label on the packages.

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Well, really that's mainly to cover the seller's ass from lawsuits and such. But, I think putting the label on the package requires it to go through the FDA, DEA and whatever other "A's" out there whom would be relevant to it's continued (in most cases so far) legal status. Good luck with that. :?

Yes impairment. Impairment/not impaired - action = big difference.

Salvia already comes with pamphlets; and more warnings than a ladder, Or at least the stuff I have scene.
What you seek is a win Universal, that is all.
You know deep down that your Recreational analogy will not hold up when push comes to shove. It does not hold up here and it would not stand in a court.
So I would revise your end game strategy friend.

Until you can stifle those stories and clips that horrify parents, kids flailing around in "another dimension" then you will loose. Tell me what else kills people. it's moot.

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Originally Posted by Howie

Yes impairment. Impairment/not impaired - action = big difference.

Salvia already comes with pamphlets; and more warnings than a ladder, Or at least the stuff I have scene.
What you seek is a win Universal, that is all.
You know deep down that your Recreational analogy will not hold up when push comes to shove. It does not hold up here and it would not stand in a court.
So I would revise your end game strategy friend.

Until you can stifle those stories and clips that horrify parents, kids flailing around in "another dimension" then you will loose. Tell me what else kills people. it's moot.

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Another dodge. Congratulations. :breakitdown: Maybe you can post fifty more such empty posts and pretend they amount to anything more than dodgy assertion.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.

1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society.

2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy in reality. Golf has.

3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.

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Come on, Howie. What are you afraid of?

Should the law require that driving automobiles be limited to necessary business and needs fulfillment? In other words, should recreational driving be banned?

http://www.safecarguide.com/exp/stat...statistics.htm

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Noam Chomsky on Marijuana