Innately Evil

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Originally Posted by Abra

I don't know, but 'dark' lucid dreaming reminds me of original sin, the idea that humans are innately evil. People who kill in their lucid dreams, they still want it to happen. As realistically as possible, too.

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That was posted by Abra on a topic on the "General Lucid Discussion" Board and it got me thinking. This was in reponse to a question about doing evil things in your dream. If you dream or lucid dream (with or without control) of you doing things that are considered truly evil, does it come back to this idea that at the core, humans are evil beings?

Don't get me wrong, we all know humans are capable of doing great good as well. But at our core, our very heart, we are always tempted to do the wrong thing. This might not be a 'major evil', but it still comes down to this basic idea of our core being "rotten". That even if we hold certain morals while we're are awake, that these can disintegrate by us doing something as simple as dreaming.

So do you think humans are Innately Evil? If you do, why? I just want to see what other people think about this as well. If you don't, what are your arguments?

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

Also, humans are simply byproducts of their environments. A person that is born into a (subjectively) "good" environment is most likely to be a "good" person - to the point were even the thought of doing anything evil is so far beyond the person's scope of reasoning as to render the act itself impossible, without the proper motivation (which is, again, a factor of his/her environment).

I don't think we are born either way.

We aren't innately evil. There are indeed dark recesses that hide the darkest desires within the depths of one's mind but that isn't the "core".

In essence, everyone is different. Regular dreams don't necessarily reflect one's desires at all. We dream of what concerns us or what we simply have on our minds. Doing something immoral in a lucid dream however is a different story. It means that a person can actually bring him/her self to doing that for someone with truly strong ideals and principles is disgusted by things that he/she finds evil/bad/immoral; truly naturally disgusted, and thus would never do such a thing, in an illusion or in reality.

Apathy is rampant nowadays but it doesn't necessarily lead to becoming evil, it leads to become savage and all that it entails.

All in all, being evil implies being completely self-consumed and self-centred, yearning for self-gain at any cost. But very few people live with such a mindframe, I imagine. We're social beings, we aren't meant to be alone.

i said yes. i believe that most people are deep down inherently evil and the only thing that's keeping most people from showing it are the consequences.

I side with H.H. The Dalai Lama--humans are essentially compassionate, but fear and craving twist us out of true. We're fascinated by violence because it's unusual, and perplexing.

I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word. We still have animal instincts such as greed, selfishness, and aggressiveness. We can suppress them, but down inside we still have those animal impulses. This is why communism doesn't work, because we are greedy.

i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"

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Originally Posted by freefire

i said yes that humans are innately evil. We just are. However i do believe that we can change if we want to. If you decide you want to be good, then i believe that its possible to change yourself all the way through. Even to this "rotten core"

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I don't think so. An individual can't evolve.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

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My thoughts exactly. Evil is what you make of it.

Humans aren't innately evil -
they're innately misguided.

It's interesting how close the poll is so far. Still not sure who I agree with, but I think i'm leaning towards a "No" note. I think Alban summed it up well.

The idea of humans being innately evil is incredibly misguided.

You are combining two of the biggest philosophical problems here:

1. What is human nature?
2. What is right and wrong?

So it's really no wonder that you get extremely mixed views. My view in short is that human nature is inherently nice, compassionate and cooperative (result of evolution) and things such as selfishness are NOT evil but good (also the result of evolution). Since I believe that evolution is not inherently evil, but inherently awesome, I also conclude that humans are inherently awesome, since they're the best evolution has come up with so far.

P.S. Nice Guys Finish First (doesn't hold true for dating though)

If you define evil as "willing to hurt innocent others for selfish reasons", then I would say that all people have evil in them on some level, some more than others. I also think we are probably all born evil and that it is up to upbringing and other environmental factors to steer us away from our natural evil tendencies. If you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him/her except to give the baby food and water until the baby is able to get food and water on its own, the baby is going to grow up to be one evil menace. If a human is not taught to be good, he/she will be evil. However, a person does not have to be taught to be evil. A person's initial nature that will remain unless molded away from it is, "I want that! I must get it! Me me me!"

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Originally Posted by Korittke

2. What is right and wrong?

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Originally Posted by Grod

I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word.

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Yeah, I said I'm not sure, simply because "evil" as a concept is man-made (some might think God made it up, but if you ask me, stated in the bible == man-made, so there :P). Everyone has different definitions.

Also, with the power of framing, you make good deeds sound "evil" and evil deeds sound "good". Ever notice that in most heated political debates, most people feel like the other side is doing obviously evil/harmful things? Eeeexactly :)

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Originally Posted by Grod

I think that humans are innately evil, in the rational sense of the word.

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What is the rational definition of evil, please?

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We still have animal instincts such as greed, selfishness, and aggressiveness. We can suppress them, but down inside we still have those animal impulses. This is why communism doesn't work, because we are greedy.

I don't think so. An individual can't evolve.

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I think you image of human nature is very negative. Certainly you yourself have never changed in groundbreaking ways, otherwise you would know that this is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature.

I believe we are born with sin, however with the help of Jesus christ we can get rid of sin. So prey to jesus and be born again. You have two choices burn in hell or except jesus and live for ever.

Jesus Christ loves you.

I am going to have to disagree with most people here. I believe humans are Innately good. That most people are friendly, and wish to get along with each other and even want to help one another.

I think its how and where they grow up which leans them down the wrong path however. For example if you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him, he will turn out evil. I agree with him on that, but thats because its not natural. Basicly the baby would have to do anything it needed to survive and so it would learn to be evil in order to live. If the baby grows up in a good family, it will be a good person, not because the family molds him to be good, but because its the natural way for things to work.

I guess I just view things differently. People naturally want to survive, they will do anything to survive. I believe once they have taken care of themself however, they will be happy to help the person next to them. People are not greedy, they are only trying to take care of themself. So its not so much what they do first, its what they do next. Once they have taken care of their own needs, do they continue to act selfish, or do they help others? I think deep down, most people will help others.

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For example if you drop a baby off in the deep wilderness and do absolutely nothing to raise him, he will turn out evil.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child
Sorry, but feral children do not turn out evil.

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Basicly the baby would have to do anything it needed to survive and so it would learn to be evil in order to live.

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Feral children are not evil.

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If the baby grows up in a good family, it will be a good person, not because the family molds him to be good, but because its the natural way for things to work.

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Their are many factors that make people good, not just family. If you live in a violent family or live with a greedy family it does not mean you will turn out greedy. A good example was Hitler he lived with a normal family and he turned out evil, however his farther was a good person and his mother.

Again, goodness is complex and involves many factors.

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People naturally want to survive, they will do anything to survive.

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Not really. Again, people do sacrifice their lives to help save people. For example on Newnight(BBC news) they had a story about a old man risking his life to save a young girl. And the evolutionary biologist says that we have evolved past just thinking about ourselves and our own survival. Funny enough most people who sacrifice their lives say they think about their own family(the person in that case said he thought about his daughter when she was young). Another example is suicide bombers, note sucide bombers have the same motivitaion as people who sacrifice their lives i.e. a sense of belonging and family.

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Originally Posted by Korittke

What is the rational definition of evil, please?

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Seriously. You know what I'm talking about, but you're just being difficult. Of course good and evil are subjective. I'm talking about "evil" in the sense of classic villians, like James Bond, and Indiana Jones, stuff like that. I'm using examples for lack of a definition. The way everyday people view "evil".

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Originally Posted by Korittke

I think you image of human nature is very negative.

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by Korittke

Certainly you yourself have never changed in groundbreaking ways, otherwise you would know that this is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature.

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Where are you coming up with this?

Evil villains in fiction and thus evil people in general have perfectly good reasons to be evil and are not evil in their own eyes. They are either hurt by loneliness or by society in some way and want revenge, or they're greedy and power hungry in general, thus not caring who they harm or what they destroy on their way to their goals.

People aren't like that naturally or else it would be the good people that would be rare like the villains and constantly overpowered by those that are evil. But malice arises from the innate nature of compassion and yearning for friendship/love.

And it is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature to change in a groundbreaking manner. Which is how anyone "evil" comes to be in the first place. After all, it takes a serious mental/emotional tremor for someone to turn genuinely evil. To turn from wanting friends and someone to love to wanting power and influence over others.

Well there you go, you just gave even more example saying how people are naturally good.

Ofcourse we're evil. Humans have done these things in the past:

• Eat animals
• Eat our own species
• Rape our own species, sometimes our young
• Kill animals
• Kill our own species, sometimes our young
• Stalk other animals (webcam)
• Fight with ourselves in war
• Hang other evil people
• Watch Big Brother (watch people locked in a house)
• Make Global Warming
• Play violant Video Games
• Watch other people pretend to kill each other on TV
• Still exist

But if we're talking about lucid dreaming, then I just think it's something about freedom and us wanting to do stuff we coudn't do in real life, possible or not.

Also "Original Sin" is something that jumped out at me. Just because it's the name of the final boss soundtrack from Final Fantasy X. :D

All those things are exceptions. At this moment in time within our modern society with our morals and conscious principles, we are not innately evil and the above list of things happen as violent exceptions from the norm. Hence, criminals.

Evil will always be an exception. We are first and foremost social beings of compassion and care, which we yearn for of course but give out as well in return.
Evil arises from being good. When someone good is hurt emotionally and grows bitter, vengeful, hateful. But that tendency doesn't make us innately evil.

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Originally Posted by Grod

classic villians, like James Bond, and Indiana Jones

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I'm not entirely sure we've seen the same movies here. Or I missed something.

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Where are you coming up with this?

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If you had experienced for yourself the possibility of personal change and growth you'd know from first-hand experience that your statement "An individual can't evolve" does not hold true.

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Originally Posted by Merlock

Evil villains in fiction and thus evil people in general have perfectly good reasons to be evil and are not evil in their own eyes. They are either hurt by loneliness or by society in some way and want revenge, or they're greedy and power hungry in general, thus not caring who they harm or what they destroy on their way to their goals.

People aren't like that naturally or else it would be the good people that would be rare like the villains and constantly overpowered by those that are evil. But malice arises from the innate nature of compassion and yearning for friendship/love.

And it is indeed a perfectly possible aspect of human nature to change in a groundbreaking manner. Which is how anyone "evil" comes to be in the first place. After all, it takes a serious mental/emotional tremor for someone to turn genuinely evil. To turn from wanting friends and someone to love to wanting power and influence over others.

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I know they have reasons to be evil. They view themselves as good, but normal people think of them as evil.

If you believe in the theory of evolution, you would agree that humans evolved from animals. Since we did, we still have animal instincts and characteristics, like aggresive behavior and greed, which in extreme forms are viewed as evil.

Of course people can change in different ways, but to get of these instincts, you would have to evolve, which can not be done by an individual but as a species.

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Originally Posted by Korittke

I'm not entirely sure we've seen the same movies here. Or I missed something.

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:roll:

Morals and principles are of the mind, not of the body. So whether our physical bodies evolved from beasts or not, our minds are nothing like the unaware consciousness of animals.

But it doesn't take removing these instincts to be remain good. It simply takes self-discipline and strong morals and ideals, which sorely lack in our society nowadays.
Apathy is like a plague. Less people are willing to stand up for their morals and principles. Everyone aims towards being tolerant of absolutely everyone and everything that does no harm, etc.

So, truly, even though our body doesn't hold ultimate sway over our mind, it may very well be allowed to do so if we fall into a state of apathy and lack the needed morals and ideals to uphold the goodness inside us. But then we wouldn't turn evil either, for evil is also a conscious effort, when one has strong ideals and ambitions. With apathy taking over, we'll simply degrade to savages.

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Originally Posted by Merlock

Morals and principles are of the mind, not of the body. So whether our physical bodies evolved from beasts or not, our minds are nothing like the unaware consciousness of animals.

But it doesn't take removing these instincts to be remain good. It simply takes self-discipline and strong morals and ideals, which sorely lack in our society nowadays.
Apathy is like a plague. Less people are willing to stand up for their morals and principles. Everyone aims towards being tolerant of absolutely everyone and everything that does no harm, etc.

So, truly, even though our body doesn't hold ultimate sway over our mind, it may very well be allowed to do so if we fall into a state of apathy and lack the needed morals and ideals to uphold the goodness inside us. But then we wouldn't turn evil either, for evil is also a conscious effort, when one has strong ideals and ambitions. With apathy taking over, we'll simply degrade to savages.

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If the theory of evolution holds true, then everything evolved from other animals. Including our brains. Animals who had these characteristics used them to survive in the wild. The ones who had these characteristics survived, and they passed them on to us.

We can try to keep these instincts under control, yes... but they won't ever disappear. Not until we evolve, that is.

First, the mind isn't the brain.
Second, we don't need to get rid of our instincts. They're what add to who we are. We simply need to upkeep our ideals and principles to have control over our instincts.

thegnome54
Changes in brain function over time are a manifestation of cerebral plasticity. These changes occur as a mechanical effect of the data being input into the system - as you mentioned, a different world (different inputs) would create a different brain.

That being said, I see no reason to separate the brain and "mind". It seems like a false dichotomy, or worse - an invention (what is this 'mind' thing, anyways?). The brain as a biological machine is capable of undergoing all of the changes mentioned, as well as producing emotions and higher thought.

Under my definitions, your question can be rephrased as 'can the brain control the brain'? I suppose the answer would be 'yes', then, although it's very likely that the idea of 'control' is an illusion created by the brain - the brain's mechanical functioning (which results in your actions) is not really the result of conscious decisions, but rather the other way around. (Yes, that means that I believe free will is an illusion)

I don't want to get into a mind vs. the Brain - that's for another thread.

Oh, yes, I'm all for keeping our instincts. Easily exploited. If you can have complete self control over them then you would be good.

Grod

1. James Bond is a hero, for all I know.

2. You're missing the point of what Merlock said.

And for the mind/brain thing... it's a whole different spoon of soup. When Merlock says 'mind' he means the subjective phenomenological experience of existing (qualia). That which remains if you take out certain parts of your brain. That which you can't cut in half.

Also, copy/pasting a post from someone smarter than you isn't cool.

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Originally Posted by Korittke

Grod

1. James Bond is a hero, for all I know.

2. You're missing the point of what Merlock said.

And for the mind/brain thing... it's a whole different spoon of soup. When Merlock says 'mind' he means the subjective phenomenological experience of existing (qualia). That which remains if you take out certain parts of your brain. That which you can't cut in half.

Also, copy/pasting a post from someone smarter than you isn't cool.

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1. Your attempt to be clever isn't working.

2. No, you are. He clearly referred to the mind as some sort of existence of the brain. I quoted gnome on a post he made. What are you talking about?:?

I gave him the due credit he made for creating that post. Have you ever used a source before?

What kind of argument is "animals are evil?" The prevailing view is more like animals are innocent.

Regardless, we evolved from social animals, not solitary predators. Our ancestors have very likely been social animals much farther back than the primate phase of our evolution. Love and compassion are our survival instincts. Maintaining social bonds and helping one another are our survival instincts. Most often you see these instincts distorted in individuals who were 'cut off from the pack' in childhood, isolated in a loveless situation, or given distorted models of love.

Yes, bad things happen. We do what we can, as a society, to correct the situation, but we still have a lot of work to do.

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

What kind of argument is "animals are evil?" The prevailing view is more like animals are innocent.

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I don't know. Who's saying that?:?

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Originally Posted by Taosaur

Regardless, we evolved from social animals, not solitary predators. Our ancestors have very likely been social animals much farther back than the primate phase of our evolution. Love and compassion are our survival instincts. Maintaining social bonds and helping one another are our survival instincts. Most often you see these instincts distorted in individuals who were 'cut off from the pack' in childhood, isolated in a loveless situation, or given distorted models of love.

Yes, bad things happen. We do what we can, as a society, to correct the situation, but we still have a lot of work to do.

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Can an animal "love"? Can an animal be compassionate? Animals can't think enough to be "evil" or "good". They are just trying to survive. We get these survival instincts from them. We did evolve from social animals... but this doesn't make us good. Apes and monkeys are aggressive to defend their territory... they used these characteristics and innate traits to be dominant in their group and control. These were passed down to us.

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Originally Posted by Grod

I don't know. Who's saying that?:?


Can an animal "love"? Can an animal be compassionate? Animals can't think enough to be "evil" or "good". They are just trying to survive. We get these survival instincts from them. We did evolve from social animals... but this doesn't make us good. Apes and monkeys are aggressive to defend their territory... they used these characteristics and innate traits to be dominant in their group and control. These were passed down to us.

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So you're saying neither humans nor other animals are innately evil?

I was talking about animals other than us, but I think you already knew that.

Bringing this back to lucid dreaming. In another thread, people say that if you have sex in a lucid, it is very much like cheating on your real-life lover. How is the concept of doing other immoral deeds in a lucid dream different?

I'm not saying that humans are or aren't innately evil. I'm not saying that people can't control their selfishness through altruism. I'm saying that when stripped of societal boundaries, people are also stripped of this control (however gradual or fast this may occur, it will occur to some degree). Lucid dream acts such as rape and murder tend to confirm this postulate.

Also, I really like the book Lord of the Flies. <3

From my understanding, human beings are only born with two fears...the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. Everything else is learned/programmed.

Hello CrimsonWolf.

I think it would be foolish to label yourself naturally evil. Unless you think it's kool or an easy way out of having to make an effort. Before asking why something is evil, first investigate it's psychology. When you understand the psychology of something. It's much less of a mystery and a lot more useful. Then questioning wether it is good or not will not concern you at all.

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Originally Posted by Mystic7

Hello CrimsonWolf.

I think it would be foolish to label yourself naturally evil. Unless you think it's kool or an easy way out of having to make an effort.

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Lol, I think you're missing the point. I just wanted to know what you all thought.

I think Mystic was using "you" in general, not meaning you in particular. :P
(This is why I tend to use "one" instead of "you". *cough*)

Merlock correct. CrimsonWolf read more carefully I am not missing a point. You wanted to know what we thought. That's obviously what I think. So what is wrong with you.

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Originally Posted by Mystic7

Merlock correct. CrimsonWolf read more carefully I am not missing a point. You wanted to know what we thought. That's obviously what I think. So what is wrong with you.

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That was a bit harsh. I just misread the post, give me a bit of breathing space!

In the words of Shakespeare:

"There is no good or bad,
but thinking makes them so."
- Hamlet 2:2

~

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Originally Posted by CrimsonWolf

That was a bit harsh. I just misread the post, give me a bit of breathing space!

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lol, sorry CrimsonWolf. Patience is thin amongst foolishness and people with monkeys in their avatars. Thank mark75, grod and other friends for the no patience thing.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I chose no for a few reasons. I think evil is, in itself, a human label. I don't think that there is anything that is objectively evil, and we are simply what we are. The things that we do that can be labelled as "evil" are only "evil" because of how we've come to define the word.

Also, humans are simply byproducts of their environments. A person that is born into a (subjectively) "good" environment is most likely to be a "good" person - to the point were even the thought of doing anything evil is so far beyond the person's scope of reasoning as to render the act itself impossible, without the proper motivation (which is, again, a factor of his/her environment).

I don't think we are born either way.

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Very good points. My view is similar.

There are no inherantly good or bad people. We judge a person's goodness and wickedness by their actions, which are decided on by our mental states which are in turn decided by our situations (and some wider infulences). The situations we are in create our actions, which will be the best actions to do in that situation.

Everyone, every single one of us has done and will do good and bad things in their lives. In any situation, we are affected by different levels of desperation (brought on by duress and necessity) and clearness of mind (as well as many, more minor, other factors), and other wider factors such as moral code, upbringing etc. In some situations, the best way to deal with things would be to act in a way that is deemed good. In others, the best or only way to deal with a situation is in a way that is deemed bad.

We don't do bad things because we are inherantly bad - "bad" actions are simply drawn out from us, sometimes willingly and sometmes unwillingly by the situation we're in. Good and bad are labels we've created to build up a happy little naive world of good guys and bad guys and disgiuse the fact that, no matter how "evil" an action is, under extreme circumstances anyone would do it.

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Originally Posted by wendylove

I believe we are born with sin, however with the help of Jesus christ we can get rid of sin. So prey to jesus and be born again. You have two choices burn in hell or except jesus and live for ever.

Jesus Christ loves you.

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If you ask me, that's just creepy. Who needs a religion that works by coercion?

Most people I've seen who are religious do good things because they're scared of the consequences of not being good, not saying grace, not helping beggars, instead of doing good because they think it's right. What sort of good is that?

I think wendylove was gracing us with a bit of sarcasm

Oh yeah. Only I didn't realise seeing as there are plenty of peoplw here who can say that seriously.

Heh, well, my points still stand.

But anyway, a bit off topic.