• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 26
    1. #1
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24

      The curious thing about natural selection

      Is that everyone thinks they understand it. When they obviously [probably] don't.

      So I just wanted to see if this was true. Describe to me in the highest detail you can without looking it up how natural selection and thus evolution works. I suppose you don't have to believe in natural selection and evolution in order to join in.
      Last edited by Sandform; 05-25-2008 at 03:40 PM.

    2. #2
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      1,691
      Likes
      68
      god did it, you athiest scum!!!! jk~~

      how about I give you the briefest def? species get random mutations, some mutations are better suited for the enviroment they live in, thus the ones with these mutations live on to reproduce and pass on the mutation. Over time this process can create a new species instead of just variation in one species. so, mutations are random, who survives is not.
      <img src=http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q50/mckellion/Bleachsiggreen2.jpg border=0 alt= />


      A warrior does not give up what he loves, he finds the love in what he does

      Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the impossible.

    3. #3
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Go further if you can, into the branches as they go.

      Natural selection and evolution have strange things that go together for example (I'll have to go and create a picture with lines N stuff to show what I'm trying to communicate.)

      Here is sort of what I'm talking about. This picture isn't of "species" but of "traits." I made it myself in a rush so it is pretty crappy.

      It doesn't say what I'm trying to convey accurately but let me see...



      Alright, consider each trait being passed on is being passed on with other traits...now though the trait still exists...this same trait will have been passed on to other organisms (most likely) and even though it had this trait it still died. A species itself isn't really classifiable in a common sense because at what point and at what combination of genes does the animal stop being able to reproduce?

      If we separate the beings into A B and C. If species can only reproduce with the same species, and A can reproduce with C but not be, however C can reproduce with both A and B does that mean that C is in both species category? Its complicated lol.
      Last edited by Sandform; 05-25-2008 at 04:22 PM.

    4. #4
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Posts
      2,609
      Likes
      2
      That was confusing... not very blandly put.

      Species is just a way to group similar organisms. It's basically arbitrary, but it's based on a common set of rules among biologists and stuff so it's not really that arbitrary. It's still all in your head though.

      That's where any ID-argument fails... They say "well, how did a monkey turn into a human?" so they assume that "species" is something external when it's not. The monkey just developed new traits, it's not really a monkey even, it's just a hairy thing walking around.

      If I understood anything in your post, you're not asking about natural selection but how biologists classify organisms.

      Really I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

      Ich brauche keine Waffe.

      Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

    5. #5
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4140
      DJ Entries
      11
      Here's a good example of Natural Selection in the modern world so people can understand it.

      In the UK peppered moths used to be as white as the bark of the trees they made their habitat, however every generation a few peppered moths mutated to have darker pigments, thus causing them to be more easily seen by birds and gobbled up so the pigment coloration remained in a pretty narrow range for millions of years simply because outside of that range, they were targets.

      Then the UK industrialized and coal turned the treebark black for this particular tree. Now, if you go back to those forests, all the peppered moths are dark and the lighter ones are getting eaten up.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    6. #6
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by Korittke View Post
      That was confusing... not very blandly put.

      Species is just a way to group similar organisms. It's basically arbitrary, but it's based on a common set of rules among biologists and stuff so it's not really that arbitrary. It's still all in your head though.

      That's where any ID-argument fails... They say "well, how did a monkey turn into a human?" so they assume that "species" is something external when it's not. The monkey just developed new traits, it's not really a monkey even, it's just a hairy thing walking around.

      If I understood anything in your post, you're not asking about natural selection but how biologists classify organisms.

      Really I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

      The post is about natural selection and "evolution." Most people deem evolutio as the rising of new species.

      Meanwhile what I was saying was that there is no one point when a new species evolves...which is what most people who think of natural selection and evolution seem to misunderstand.

      I have seen many video's online that show "evolution" sort of. But the one thing that every one i've ever seen fail to do is to show the fact that...


      6 generations of new and combined traits usually mix with another 6 generations of such and such traits.

      A^256 mixes with B^367


      Most people think of it as here was this animal, and then its babies kept having random mutations until bamo it became a new species...

    7. #7
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      1,691
      Likes
      68
      yeah, I get what you are saying. Im no expert on the "branches" as you say, but I do understand the abitrary nature of species. probably one of the best examples also is the dinosaur show on not too long ago where they could give a chicken more reptilian traits by tinkering with its genes. The succeeded in giving it a long tail and giving it teeth and more scales, it was quite interesting.
      <img src=http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q50/mckellion/Bleachsiggreen2.jpg border=0 alt= />


      A warrior does not give up what he loves, he finds the love in what he does

      Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the impossible.

    8. #8
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by tkdyo View Post
      yeah, I get what you are saying. Im no expert on the "branches" as you say, but I do understand the abitrary nature of species. probably one of the best examples also is the dinosaur show on not too long ago where they could give a chicken more reptilian traits by tinkering with its genes. The succeeded in giving it a long tail and giving it teeth and more scales, it was quite interesting.
      DINOCHICKEN! I want one.

    9. #9
      Call me Dw Dreamworld's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2007
      Gender
      Location
      The bottom.
      Posts
      977
      Likes
      1
      Well if you fail at life, your genes wouldn't want your kids to fail at life.

    10. #10
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Skypedia
      Posts
      1,903
      Likes
      71
      According to evolution all life origanted from the first organism right? Where did this first organism come from then? Did it evolve out of rock?

      @Chicken with teeth.. sounds pretty cool, got any pics?

    11. #11
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      Did it evolve out of rock?
      Uh, no. This isn't technically about natural selection, it's a subject called 'abiogenesis', and it's really interesting. It's been demonstrated that if you apply an electrical impulse to an atmosphere like the early Earth's you get some of the essential compounds for life. It's possible that a blob of oil slowly grew in the ocean and formed some kind of self sustaining set of chemical reactions, but there's a lot of speculation...

      Describe to me in the highest detail you can without looking it up how natural selection and thus evolution works.
      What do you think the main misconception is? Natural selection is a fairly simple concept, some members of a population have mutations which favour their environments and hence they have a greater chance of surviving to reproduce and pass on that mutation.

      You have not fully grasped the subject though. To say 'natural selection and hence evolution' is wrong; there are some other mechanisms of evolution.

    12. #12
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      1,691
      Likes
      68
      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post

      @Chicken with teeth.. sounds pretty cool, got any pics?
      lol, they didnt let it live, they developed the embryo, but Ill see if I can find it, seeing as it was a discovery show
      <img src=http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q50/mckellion/Bleachsiggreen2.jpg border=0 alt= />


      A warrior does not give up what he loves, he finds the love in what he does

      Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the impossible.

    13. #13
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4140
      DJ Entries
      11
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post

      You have not fully grasped the subject though. To say 'natural selection and hence evolution' is wrong; there are some other mechanisms of evolution.
      Like what?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    14. #14
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2007
      LD Count
      WhoIsJohnGalt?
      Gender
      Location
      Denver, CO Catchphrase: BullCockie!
      Posts
      5,589
      Likes
      930
      DJ Entries
      9
      The interesting thing about new speciation through natural selection is that it is counter intuitive. Beneficial mutations do not lead to new species, as anything that is more desirable than the norm will quickly be mixed into the existing gene pool.

      It is negative but sustainable mutation that causes new speciation. The mutation is shunned, or it is simply incapable of surviving in its current niche and is forced to find a new niche away from its kind. In this way it adapts to the change and becomes something new. (all of this takes place over long time periods but its easier to talk about as if it happens in a single generation)

      Its easy to see how homo sapiens developed in this manner. Most likely, our decrease in jaw size and strength came (slightly) before our increase in cranial capacity. Our ancestors were unable to chew and digest the foods that their ancestors were eating, and had to learn (genetically speaking) how to reach higher to get the soft fruit out of the trees.
      Last edited by Xaqaria; 05-27-2008 at 09:12 AM.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
      Art
      Dream Journal Shaman Apprentice Chronicles

    15. #15
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      The interesting thing about new speciation through natural selection is that it is counter intuitive. Benefitial mutations do not lead to new species, as anything that is more desirable than the norm will quickly be mixed into the existing gene pool.

      It is negative but sustainable mutation that causes new speciation. The mutation is shunned, or it is simply incapable of surviving in its current niche and is forced to find a new niche away from its kind. In this way it adapts to the change and becomes something new. (all of this takes place over long time periods but its easier to talk about as if it happens in a single generation)

      Its easy to see how homo sapiens developed in this manner. Most likely, our decrease in jaw size and strength came (slightly) before our increase in cranial capacity. Our ancestors were unable to chew and digest the foods that their ancestors were eating, and had to learn (genetically speaking) how to reach higher to get the soft fruit out of the trees.
      Interesting.

    16. #16
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      Mrs. Garrison explains it very well, even better than most creationists.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ2o0FP3ESY&NR=1
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    17. #17
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Mrs. Garrison explains it very well, even better than most creationists.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ2o0FP3ESY&NR=1
      I love that episode.

    18. #18
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      Like what?
      Genetic drift is one of the main ones.

    19. #19
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Xei. My statement of "hence evolution" doesn't sound incorrect to me.

      What if I were to say electricity and hence the light bulb is able to work...

      Natural selection and hence evolution gets to work.

    20. #20
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      Describe to me in the highest detail you can without looking it up how natural selection and thus evolution works.
      Because you can't explain evolution just by explaining natural selection, there are other things apart from natural selection. 'Thus' suggests that by describing natural selection you would be describing evolution.

      But that's really just semantics, as long as you know that there are other mechanisms then it's really not worth talking about.

      I'd like to know why you think people have a warped view of natural selection though. What kind of things have people said to you? Most people who I've heard from understand it pretty well.

    21. #21
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Because you can't explain evolution just by explaining natural selection, there are other things apart from natural selection. 'Thus' suggests that by describing natural selection you would be describing evolution.

      But that's really just semantics, as long as you know that there are other mechanisms then it's really not worth talking about.

      I'd like to know why you think people have a warped view of natural selection though. What kind of things have people said to you? Most people who I've heard from understand it pretty well.
      I don't really hold the belief, I wanted to see if it was true. A French biologist said it...and I wanted to test his hypothesis hehe.

      The only misconception I've really found is the one where they don't realize that survival rate is the actual key to natural selection. Lol.

      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...0/misconcep_01

      Google is my friend. I am excluded from the not looking up clause because I'm trying to explain the reason for me asking the explanation X.X.

    22. #22
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      In my last post, I linked a website.



      This image from that site shows a common misconception. The bear needs a coat so he gets one. Nope.

    23. #23
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      'Common' is the new synonym for 'creationist', I suppose?

    24. #24
      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      4,298
      Likes
      24
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      'Common' is the new synonym for 'creationist', I suppose?
      ? I'm not certain that it is. I mean...I'm sure its as common in creationist as any other. If you have a misconception, then this is probably one of them.

      Like for example on that 70's show Kelso said that eventually the coyote from the roadrunner would develop rocket feet or something like that. That is a misconception.

    25. #25
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      Only idiots think that.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •