Does Michelle Obama overestimate Americans?

**Taosaur** · 06-13-2008 04:25 AM

With Hillary out of the race, a lot of GOP attention is shifting to Michelle Obama. I won't repeat the memes, but the remains of Rove's smut-factory are trying to paint her as a cross between their depictions of Hillary and of Jeremiah Wright--in other words, an America-hating black bitch.

It's nice to see Republicans recycling, but could some of the mud stick? Their sound byte of choice is of course the "For the first time in my life, I'm proud to be an American," but they've also cobbled together some open criticisms she's made about American policy and culture, for instance (paraphrasing here) that there's a lot of meanness in our culture.

I think it's fair to say that both Obamas have been more open in their views about what needs changing in the U.S. and where we need to move forward than any serious candidate in most of our lifetimes. To me, that jibes pretty well with the message of "hope and change." I for one prefer a president who talks to me like a grown-up and calls a smear campaign for what it is, as opposed to our current one who conflates Hussein with 9/11 and expects me not to notice, requisitions aircraft carriers for photo-ops, and takes every serious issue from health care to fuel costs as an opportunity to cut a check to corporate backers, his underlings dropping misinformation through back channels and lighting fires like the Plame case to distract us the whole time.

So, can we take it? Can we deal with honest rhetoric balancing criticism with praise? Can we accept any answers other than, "We are the chosen nation of Gawd!" and random permutations of "freedom...democracy...9/11?"

**Universal Mind** · 06-13-2008 04:30 AM

Michelle Obama is not running for president, and she is not Barack's philosophical advisor or his terrorist friend. She is just his wife who hasn't hurt anybody. I don't think her comment about never having been proud of her country until this year is going to hurt Barack too much or be talked about too much more. She just comes across as a harmless and not too significant person who doesn't appreciate how many people have gone through nightmares and death to give her and much of the rest of the world the things she takes for granted.

**Taosaur** · 06-13-2008 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Michelle Obama is not running for president, and she is not Barack's philosophical advisor or his terrorist friend. She is just his wife who hasn't hurt anybody. I don't think her comment about never having been proud of her country until this year is going to hurt Barack too much or be talked about too much more. She just comes across as a harmless and not too significant person who doesn't appreciate how many people have gone through nightmares and death to give her and much of the rest of the world the things she takes for granted.

It's interesting that you find someone who's very likely to live in the White House with Barack next year "not too significant," in comparison to a minister he saw occasional Sundays and a local celebrity who invited him to some dinner parties. She's stated that her main role in the White House will be taking care of the kids, but she's also spoken extensively on her husband's behalf, demonstrating a shared mission as well as a personal bond. It would be nice to believe that people won't be putting words in her mouth as you just did for the remainder of the campaign, but if the past few days are any indication, odds are slim.

As far as pride and taking things for granted, a great many Americans have had very little to feel proud about since the moon-landing, while others have used flag-waving as a smokescreen to take quite a lot for granted. I think what Mrs. Obama was talking about and what a lot of citizens are feeling for the first time is involvement in a worthwhile American endeavor. Some of us just aren't temperamentally suited to manufacture needs and pass the money from hand to hand until it's gone or gear up and go kill brown people overseas. Some of us don't consider children with guns scarring each other for life as the epitome of the American way. We don't buy the Cold War logic that if you just go to war long enough, eventually you'll secure peace, or that profiting from others' pain while siphoning off their resources will somehow lead to prosperity for all.

We don't believe that this country sucks and we don't hate America, but we hope and many of us believe we can do better and be better. We're not content to stand on pride while the house falls down around us.

**Universal Mind** · 06-13-2008 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

It's interesting that you find someone who's very likely to live in the White House with Barack next year "not too significant," in comparison to a minister he saw occasional Sundays and a local celebrity who invited him to some dinner parties. She's stated that her main role in the White House will be taking care of the kids, but she's also spoken extensively on her husband's behalf, demonstrating a shared mission as well as a personal bond. It would be nice to believe that people won't be putting words in her mouth as you just did for the remainder of the campaign, but if the past few days are any indication, odds are slim.

What words did I put in her mouth? Please tell me. I really want to know.

Michelle is not Barack's philosophical advisor. I already explained that. Don't respond to my posts unless you read them first.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

As far as pride and taking things for granted, a great many Americans have had very little to feel proud about since the moon-landing, while others have used flag-waving as a smokescreen to take quite a lot for granted. I think what Mrs. Obama was talking about and what a lot of citizens are feeling for the first time is involvement in a worthwhile American endeavor. Some of us just aren't temperamentally suited to manufacture needs and pass the money from hand to hand until it's gone or gear up and go kill brown people overseas. Some of us don't consider children with guns scarring each other for life as the epitome of the American way. We don't buy the Cold War logic that if you just go to war long enough, eventually you'll secure peace, or that profiting from others' pain while siphoning off their resources will somehow lead to prosperity for all.

Speaking of the Cold War, we won it. Now the Soviet Union does not exist, and they cannot take over the world. We landed a remote control robot on Mars, have consistently led the entire world in giving foreign aid, give more than half of the world hunger relief food, and have given two nations the ability to vote for their representatives, which they do in higher percentages than we do. That is some of the stuff to be proud of. If none of that means anything to Michelle, then screw her. Maybe she just doesn't know. But like I said, Michelle Obama is not significant. She is Barack's wife, not his mentor, and she has not hurt anybody. I am attracted to bimbos too, so I am not going to hold that against Barack.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

We don't believe that this country sucks and we don't hate America, but we hope and many of us believe we can do better and be better. We're not content to stand on pride while the house falls down around us.

What does that have to do with anything?

**The Enterer** · 06-13-2008 06:53 AM

The Republicans are going to need to be very careful with how they slime the Obamas.
Here is an interesting opinion piece, and I couldn't agree with it more.

**Taosaur** · 06-13-2008 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by The Enterer

Here is an interesting opinion piece, and I couldn't agree with it more.

Great link, thank you. I'd do some cut and paste if I weren't on my phone. The relevant angle for me is that Americans are tired of schoolyard politics and the image it creates for us.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What words did I put in her mouth? Please tell me. I really want to know.

"never having been proud of her country." Rather than make any effort to understand in context what she was expressing, you let the vultures at Fox News, The Drudge Report et al. carve out a sound-byte and tell you what it means. I can just as easily truncate it a little further and preserve more of the intent: "I am proud to be an American."

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Michelle is not Barack's philosophical advisor. I already explained that. Don't respond to my posts unless you read them first.

Michelle Obama is not significant. She is Barack's wife, not his mentor, and she has not hurt anybody. I am attracted to bimbos too, so I am not going to hold that against Barack.

The person you just described as "bimbo" went from sharing half the living room of a one-bedroom with her brother growing up to graduate cum laude from Princeton and move on to Harvard Law. She could own you in any debate and beat you out for any job she'd be willing to take. It leads me to wonder whether your statement came out of specific ignorance or general misogyny.

What's more, she took that education back to work in her community, specifically in healthcare and education, fields presently commanding the people's attention and always vital to the national interest. I guarantee you she has more influence with Obama than either his ex-pastor or an acquaintance on the Chicago political scene.

You might excuse her if she hasn't been sufficiently misty over Old Glory while working actively to improve the lives of the people. What you're asking for is politics as usual: obeisance paid to the priests and soldiers in exchange for a hand in the public coffers on behalf of past and future employers.

**Sornaensis** · 06-13-2008 05:54 PM

Barack shut his wife up.

Therefore she is not a significant character.

**lysergic** · 06-13-2008 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

With Hillary out of the race, a lot of GOP attention is shifting to Michelle Obama. I won't repeat the memes, but the remains of Rove's smut-factory are trying to paint her as a cross between their depictions of Hillary and of Jeremiah Wright--in other words, an America-hating black bitch.

It's nice to see Republicans recycling, but could some of the mud stick? Their sound byte of choice is of course the "For the first time in my life, I'm proud to be an American," but they've also cobbled together some open criticisms she's made about American policy and culture, for instance (paraphrasing here) that there's a lot of meanness in our culture.

I think it's fair to say that both Obamas have been more open in their views about what needs changing in the U.S. and where we need to move forward than any serious candidate in most of our lifetimes. To me, that jibes pretty well with the message of "hope and change." I for one prefer a president who talks to me like a grown-up and calls a smear campaign for what it is, as opposed to our current one who conflates Hussein with 9/11 and expects me not to notice, requisitions aircraft carriers for photo-ops, and takes every serious issue from health care to fuel costs as an opportunity to cut a check to corporate backers, his underlings dropping misinformation through back channels and lighting fires like the Plame case to distract us the whole time.

So, can we take it? Can we deal with honest rhetoric balancing criticism with praise? Can we accept any answers other than, "We are the chosen nation of Gawd!" and random permutations of "freedom...democracy...9/11?"

that... was beautiful.

**Universal Mind** · 06-13-2008 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

"never having been proud of her country." Rather than make any effort to understand in context what she was expressing, you let the vultures at Fox News, The Drudge Report et al. carve out a sound-byte and tell you what it means. I can just as easily truncate it a little further and preserve more of the intent: "I am proud to be an American."

She said it was the first time in her life to be proud of her country. In other words, before that, she had never been proud of her country. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

The person you just described as "bimbo" went from sharing half the living room of a one-bedroom with her brother growing up to graduate cum laude from Princeton and move on to Harvard Law. She could own you in any debate and beat you out for any job she'd be willing to take. It leads me to wonder whether your statement came out of specific ignorance or general misogyny.

The comment she made was bimboish. It was terrible for her husband's campaign. It was idiotic to make that comment, and it was an idiotic comment. A lot of bimbos have books smarts. I don't think she could take me in a debate. Based on the political stances she takes, I know I could beat her on a lot of issues. Your point about misigyny involved major speculation. I said nothing about all women being bimbos. In fact, I am far from thinking that. It makes me wonder if you put your penis in tree holes.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

What's more, she took that education back to work in her community, specifically in healthcare and education, fields presently commanding the people's attention and always vital to the national interest. I guarantee you she has more influence with Obama than either his ex-pastor or an acquaintance on the Chicago political scene.

Your guarantee is worth very little to me. If Barack too had never been proud of his country until this year, that is even more reason he needs to stay out of the presidency.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

You might excuse her if she hasn't been sufficiently misty over Old Glory while working actively to improve the lives of the people. What you're asking for is politics as usual: obeisance paid to the priests and soldiers in exchange for a hand in the public coffers on behalf of past and future employers.

Uh, you are really pulling things out of your ass. What I want is intelligent economic policy that improves the country accompanied by awareness of the great things the United States has done and is doing. However, as I said, Michelle Obama is insignificant. I don't know why you are acting like an offended cult member. Do you have anybody important you would like to talk about? Maybe Hillary Clinton or Condoleeza Rice?

Originally Posted by lysergic

that... was beautiful.

Would you like to debate this, or do you just want to be a sidekick?

**Taosaur** · 06-14-2008 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The comment she made was bimboish. It was terrible for her husband's campaign. It was idiotic to make that comment, and it was an idiotic comment. A lot of bimbos have books smarts. I don't think she could take me in a debate. Based on the political stances she takes, I know I could beat her on a lot of issues. Your point about misigyny involved major speculation. I said nothing about all women being bimbos. In fact, I am far from thinking that. It makes me wonder if you put your penis in tree holes.

Okay, that made me lol, but I still find your 'bimbo' statement pretty inherently misogynistic, moreso when directed at someone of Michelle Obama's qualifications.

And no, I don't find her statement 'bimboish'--she certainly didn't let slip anything dumber than you did calling her a bimbo. The fact that she and Barack speak honestly to the historical moment, rather than parroting the nationalism and piety of recent campains, is what this thread is about.

This country has given at least half the people quite a lot of disappointment over the last eight years. The unprovoked and ill-informed invasion of Iraq shamed us; the regressive Dibs on Marriage Acts shamed us; Bush's re-election shamed us; the conduct of our contractors in Iraq shamed us. More and more Americans are coming to understand that the same people wagging fingers at Barack for not wearing a lapel pin have been smearing shit on the flag and making fools of us all for years.

My hope is that when the Obamas make direct statements addressing present realities, the majority of Americans will forgive politically incorrect phrasing. If the Obamas' faith in Americans is justified, it may turn out that what the sniping jingoists at Fox News insist are gaffs will end up being just enough rope for the neo-con noise machine to hang itself.

**Universal Mind** · 06-15-2008 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Okay, that made me lol, but I still find your 'bimbo' statement pretty inherently misogynistic, moreso when directed at someone of Michelle Obama's qualifications.

And I find your support for Michelle Obama to be an indication that you have sex with farm animals. You did an Evel Knievel style jump to your bizarre conclusion. Bimbos do exist, and making such an asinine comment about the United States when your husband is running for president is a severely stupid thing to do. This thing about having the same opinion of all women is just ludicrous, and I would even say dishonest.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

And no, I don't find her statement 'bimboish'--she certainly didn't let slip anything dumber than you did calling her a bimbo. The fact that she and Barack speak honestly to the historical moment, rather than parroting the nationalism and piety of recent campains, is what this thread is about.

This country has given at least half the people quite a lot of disappointment over the last eight years. The unprovoked and ill-informed invasion of Iraq shamed us; the regressive Dibs on Marriage Acts shamed us; Bush's re-election shamed us; the conduct of our contractors in Iraq shamed us. More and more Americans are coming to understand that the same people wagging fingers at Barack for not wearing a lapel pin have been smearing shit on the flag and making fools of us all for years.

My hope is that when the Obamas make direct statements addressing present realities, the majority of Americans will forgive politically incorrect phrasing. If the Obamas' faith in Americans is justified, it may turn out that what the sniping jingoists at Fox News insist are gaffs will end up being just enough rope for the neo-con noise machine to hang itself.

That is a lot of hate you just spewed, but it does not get around the fact that Michelle Obama is an idiot for saying what she said. Just look at the negativity it stirred up, and just look at the list of things I said she has to be proud of our country for doing since she was born. She said something very idiotic. That does not mean I think everybody who lives in Chicago is an idiot, or whatever strange conclusion you want to jump to.

**Taosaur** · 06-15-2008 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

That is a lot of hate you just spewed, but it does not get around the fact that Michelle Obama is an idiot for saying what she said. Just look at the negativity it stirred up, and just look at the list of things I said she has to be proud of our country for doing since she was born. She said something very idiotic. That does not mean I think everybody who lives in Chicago is an idiot, or whatever strange conclusion you want to jump to.

How's this one? While you're not saying everyone in Chicago is an idiot, you are saying 71% of Americans are idiots according to this poll:
http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm

81% according to this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us...hp&oref=slogin

and 80% according to this one:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=90451351

Maybe some of those people did feel a little warm and tingly about America at some point in time, but the consensus since right around '05 (and for a lot of us more like '85) has been a resounding "WTF?!?"

I can tell you what I'm proud of: The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution. Common Sense. These documents introduced some truly radical, revolutionary ideas that we haven't been honoring for shit in the thirty years I've been alive. Moreover, they are the foundation of an experimental and progressive nation, a nation loyal to principles, not persons, symbols or aristocracies. I'm proud of America when I see some sign that it still exists or ever did; those signs are few and far between these days, and Barack Obama is one.

**Universal Mind** · 06-15-2008 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

How's this one? While you're not saying everyone in Chicago is an idiot, you are saying 71% of Americans are idiots according to this poll:
http://www.pollingreport.com/right.htm

81% according to this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/us...hp&oref=slogin

and 80% according to this one:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=90451351

Maybe some of those people did feel a little warm and tingly about America at some point in time, but the consensus since right around '05 (and for a lot of us more like '85) has been a resounding "WTF?!?"

I can tell you what I'm proud of: The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution. Common Sense. These documents introduced some truly radical, revolutionary ideas that we haven't been honoring for shit in the thirty years I've been alive. Moreover, they are the foundation of an experimental and progressive nation, a nation loyal to principles, not persons, symbols or aristocracies. I'm proud of America when I see some sign that it still exists or ever did; those signs are few and far between these days, and Barack Obama is one.

Do I really need to explain this? Michelle said that she had NEVER been proud of her country until earlier this year. She did not say, "I have a pessimistic view of which direction the country is going in presently." I know you know the difference, considering how enormous it is. So now admit that I didn't call 71-81% of the country idiots. While you are at it, admit that you had no basis in reality for calling me masogynistic. This is silly. It is so silly that I am pretty close to posting the troll statue.

**RedfishBluefish** · 06-15-2008 11:10 AM

What's the point of being proud of a piece of dirt? It's not like the lines on the map mean anything. If anything, it's the ideals of the country one should be proud of, and if they're going to shit - then, well, screw them.

**Universal Mind** · 06-15-2008 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

What's the point of being proud of a piece of dirt? It's not like the lines on the map mean anything. If anything, it's the ideals of the country one should be proud of, and if they're going to shit - then, well, screw them.

We're talking about the system and its history, not the land.

**Taosaur** · 06-15-2008 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Do I really need to explain this? Michelle said that she had NEVER been proud of her country until earlier this year. She did not say, "I have a pessimistic view of which direction the country is going in presently." I know you know the difference, considering how enormous it is. So now admit that I didn't call 71-81% of the country idiots. While you are at it, admit that you had no basis in reality for calling me masogynistic. This is silly. It is so silly that I am pretty close to posting the troll statue.

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country" [emphasis added]

It's pretty strongly implicit there that she's been proud of her country before, but not this proud as an adult. It's not "bimboish," it bears no resemblance to your paraphrasing, and it's a positive statement on the singular, historic import of present events and the sense of fellowship they engender in her. I've witnessed the same thing in random encounters with my neighbors--a tendency for the tired conversations about how far we've gone astray to swing around to, "but people are starting to come around and there's real grassroots change here and here and here, and wow, what about Obama?" A lot of people who have come to see the American Dream as a bad joke under Bush are feeling real commonality with their fellow citizens and personal involvement in the entity that is the USA for the first time.

I hope and believe that most Americans--at least a slim majority--can see the harping of Fox News commentators on this and other quotes for the petty, desparate sniping it is.

If you want to go on perceiving her statement as ungrateful and out-of-touch, feel free, and I'll go on seeing your 'bimbo' statement as betraying a general disrespect-verging-on-contempt for women.

**The Enterer** · 06-15-2008 10:14 PM

As annoying as all the little petty snipes are I am starting to see it as the talking heads on the right admitting they got nothin'.

**Universal Mind** · 06-15-2008 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country" [emphasis added]

It's pretty strongly implicit there that she's been proud of her country before, but not this proud as an adult. It's not "bimboish," it bears no resemblance to your paraphrasing, and it's a positive statement on the singular, historic import of present events and the sense of fellowship they engender in her. I've witnessed the same thing in random encounters with my neighbors--a tendency for the tired conversations about how far we've gone astray to swing around to, "but people are starting to come around and there's real grassroots change here and here and here, and wow, what about Obama?" A lot of people who have come to see the American Dream as a bad joke under Bush are feeling real commonality with their fellow citizens and personal involvement in the entity that is the USA for the first time.

I hope and believe that most Americans--at least a slim majority--can see the harping of Fox News commentators on this and other quotes for the petty, desparate sniping it is.

If you want to go on perceiving her statement as ungrateful and out-of-touch, feel free, and I'll go on seeing your 'bimbo' statement as betraying a general disrespect-verging-on-contempt for women.

Now look at how you have been deceived.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EGjR81pFJI4

What you are saying shows that you have a contempt for Mississippians and classic rock fans.

Originally Posted by The Enterer

As annoying as all the little petty snipes are I am starting to see it as the talking heads on the right admitting they got nothin'.

As I have said several times, Michelle Obama is small potatoes. However, it is one more little piece of the puzzle that shows what kind of people Obama connects with. But as I also said, his bimbo wife is far less significant than his philosophical advisor and his partner in public speaking.

**Taosaur** · 06-15-2008 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by The Enterer

As annoying as all the little petty snipes are I am starting to see it as the talking heads on the right admitting they got nothin'.

Hopefully they'll realize at some point that blowing up non-issues to fill a 24-hour news cycle is digging their own grave. To McCain's credit, he seems to be sticking mostly to the issues and giving straight answers, even if he's also employed or been endorsed by every whackjob and grifter in the GOP. This election is shaping up to be the most substantive campaign in televised history, talking heads notwithstanding.

**The Enterer** · 06-15-2008 10:36 PM

Issues? What a concept!

**Taosaur** · 06-15-2008 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Now look at how you have been deceived.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EGjR81pFJI4

Oh noes, variation! The substance remains the same.

**The Enterer** · 06-15-2008 10:42 PM

UM- McCain has been making a LOT of gaffs. Does this make him ignorant in regards of foreign policy? Because if we are taking this statement as an indication of how anti American the Obamas are then it would be hard to defend McCain as anything but completely uninformed. Or do you think you can have it both ways?

**Universal Mind** · 06-15-2008 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Hopefully they'll realize at some point that blowing up non-issues to fill a 24-hour news cycle is digging their own grave. To McCain's credit, he seems to be sticking mostly to the issues and giving straight answers, even if he's also employed or been endorsed by every whackjob and grifter in the GOP. This election is shaping up to be the most substantive campaign in televised history, talking heads notwithstanding.

The state of mind of a president is an issue.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Oh noes, variation! The substance remains the same.

Oh, you didn't make major significance of the word "really"? Nice backpedaling.

Originally Posted by The Enterer

UM- McCain has been making a LOT of gaffs. Does this make him ignorant in regards of foreign policy? Because if we are taking this statement as an indication of how anti American the Obamas are then it would be hard to defend McCain as anything but completely uninformed. Or do you think you can have it both ways?

Oh, so now Michelle's comment was just a matter of accidentally misspeaking? What will you make up next?

Let me remind both of you that I said Michelle Obama is insignificant. The way you are taking up for her relentlessly any way resembles cult behavior.

**Taosaur** · 06-15-2008 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Let me remind both of you that I said Michelle Obama is insignificant. The way you are taking up for her relentlessly any way resembles cult behavior.

You'd think the thread was about her or something.