October 14, First Contact

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juroara

I realize you are being sarcastic here, but I always found the idea that aliens MUST be using radio waves extremely ignorant

what else are we going to say, they must have TVs?

radio waves are just far too slow for any civilization traveling in space. it would take thousands of light years to transmit any idea! if there are ETs up there, inter stellar travel, don't you think they would be using a means of communication more advanced than anything we have ever seen?

---

You are well aware light years is a distance, not time?

If you are, then you're aware that the speed of sound would take a long time to reach earth if it's thousands of light years away, and so far traveling at the speed of light is impossible by Einstein's theory. So how are the aliens getting here now? If they travel at the speed of sound, that's too slow, and there's about a 99.998% chance they're not traveling at the speed of light (actually I think it's 100%, but I'll give you a chance), so the questions is still-- HOW THE HELL ARE THEY GETTING TO EARTH?

Are they pulling a Stargate SG-1 and going through portals? Are they somehow teleporting without being destroyed in the process? Have they learned how to make two black holes that they can make connect to each other and form a wormhole?

It all seems like a big fat bag of BS (BULLSHIT) too me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

You are well aware light years is a distance, not time?

If you are, then you're aware that the speed of sound would take a long time to reach earth if it's thousands of light years away, and so far traveling at the speed of light is impossible by Einstein's theory. So how are the aliens getting here now? If they travel at the speed of sound, that's too slow, and there's about a 99.998% chance they're not traveling at the speed of light (actually I think it's 100%, but I'll give you a chance), so the questions is still-- HOW THE HELL ARE THEY GETTING TO EARTH?

Are they pulling a Stargate SG-1 and going through portals? Are they somehow teleporting without being destroyed in the process? Have they learned how to make two black holes that they can make connect to each other and form a wormhole?

It all seems like a big fat bag of BS (BULLSHIT) too me.

---

Why are you bringing up the speed of sound? Radio travels at the speed of light. Hell, even primitive human rockets regularly do 20 times the speed of sound.

I also know that this is bullshit, but you're not helping by bringing up irrelevant information. A simple relativistic rocket can easily get to any fraction of the speed of light given enough fuel.

As i heard from the mist, some people wont be convinced even when they are on fire. I'm still skeptical but some of you guys are complete idiots.:roll:

Even if they did all that "speed of light" travel, wouldn't there be problems with time dialation? What's the point of sending a ship somewhere 1000 ly away if they (or any info) won't be back for another 2000 years. Isn't this a valid problem?

The only solution I see for "ET" or our space travel is with wormholes or some other way of bending the fabric of space which would allow quick jumps from one point to another. I read about this Warp drive idea, which was apparently theoretised by some Mexican physicist. Wiki about faster-than-light and warp drive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Even if they did all that "speed of light" travel, wouldn't there be problems with time dialation? What's the point of sending a ship somewhere 1000 ly away if they (or any info) won't be back for another 2000 years. Isn't this a valid problem?

---

If the trip is for colonization purposes, the trip need only be one way.

Quote:

---

The only solution I see for "ET" or our space travel is with wormholes or some other way of bending the fabric of space which would allow quick jumps from one point to another. I read about this Warp drive idea, which was apparently theoretised by some Mexican physicist. Wiki about faster-than-light and warp drive.

---

Alcubierre drive is a useless metric. There's no way to get in or out of a "warp bubble". There's actually a real way to have nearly instantaneous travel, and that's by using relativistic ships that occasionally fly into the ergosphere of a spinning black hole and use it to travel back in time to counteract special relativity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

If the trip is for colonization purposes, the trip need only be one way.



Alcubierre drive is a useless metric. There's no way to get in or out of a "warp bubble". There's actually a real way to have nearly instantaneous travel, and that's by using relativistic ships that occasionally fly into the ergosphere of a spinning black hole and use it to travel back in time to counteract special relativity.

---

Bah, you're just saying that to appear smarter than me :(.

Whats an ergosphere (And does a spinning black hole produce the "torus"/ring shaped singularity?). What's special relativity and why would you travel back in time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Why are you bringing up the speed of sound? Radio travels at the speed of light. Hell, even primitive human rockets regularly do 20 times the speed of sound.

I also know that this is bullshit, but you're not helping by bringing up irrelevant information. A simple relativistic rocket can easily get to any fraction of the speed of light given enough fuel.

---

Do you know any ships that travel at the speed of light? No? Then that's why I brought up the speed of sound.

According to Einstein's theory, traveling at or faster than the speed of light is impossible because the mass at those speeds would be infinite.

Also, if they traveled at the speed of light, or faster, it'd seem that time reverses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Bah, you're just saying that to appear smarter than me :(.

---

I am smarter than you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Whats an ergosphere (And does a spinning black hole produce the "torus"/ring shaped singularity?). What's special relativity and why would you travel back in time?

---

The ergosphere of a spinning black hole is the region of space around the black hole in which frame dragging causes spacetime to move at or above the speed of light, in laymen's terms. A ship in such a region would be traveling backwards in time with respect to flat space.

The singularity of a spinning black hole is a torus in a sense, but you can't picture it.

Special relativity basically says that you can't travel anywhere faster than light would. So if you took a round trip to a star 100 ly away, you can't possibly arrive back on Earth sooner than 200 years after you left. But if, on the way back, you swung around a spinning black hole and traveled a couple hundred years back in time, that would allow you to arrive just after or even before you left. For the sake of continuity, it would make sense to arrive after the time you left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Do you know any ships that travel at the speed of light? No? Then that's why I brought up the speed of sound.

---

Ships can travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light, and I still don't see what sound has to do with this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

According to Einstein's theory, traveling at or faster than the speed of light is impossible because the mass at those speeds would be infinite.

Also, if they traveled at the speed of light, or faster, it'd seem that time reverses.

---

Your comment about mass is wrong. Momentum approaches infinity, not mass. In classical physics, momentum is just the product of mass and velocity, but in both special relativity and quantum physics, momentum is a fundamental property of an object, just like mass. In fact, the mass of a moving object is invariant, meaning it never changes.

God, I hate having to correct people that haven't taken university courses on relativity, like me.

ppssssttt.......... >_>

they say they travel in another layer of the physical unseen to the human eyes. where you travel at the speed of thought. the only way to inter stellar travel and get anywhere on time is to get, dimensional!

awesome my b-day is on oct7, it would be nice to see a ufo lol. also a perfect alien manipulation on the human race movie is john carpenter's - "they live" that movie is boss! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerheimer

awesome my b-day is on oct7, it would be nice to see a ufo lol. also a perfect alien manipulation on the human race movie is john carpenter's - "they live" that movie is boss! :D

---

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/...s/griffin5.jpg

Justin Blair Spaeth is a real person (who bears a physical similarity to the Peter Griffin character but does not share his name), as evidenced by this snapshot of a Back Stage Blue (the thespian troupe of Notre Dame High School) production of West Side Story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

I am smarter than you.



The ergosphere of a spinning black hole is the region of space around the black hole in which frame dragging causes spacetime to move at or above the speed of light, in laymen's terms. A ship in such a region would be traveling backwards in time with respect to flat space.

The singularity of a spinning black hole is a torus in a sense, but you can't picture it.

Special relativity basically says that you can't travel anywhere faster than light would. So if you took a round trip to a star 100 ly away, you can't possibly arrive back on Earth sooner than 200 years after you left. But if, on the way back, you swung around a spinning black hole and traveled a couple hundred years back in time, that would allow you to arrive just after or even before you left. For the sake of continuity, it would make sense to arrive after the time you left.



Ships can travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light, and I still don't see what sound has to do with this.

---

This is only true when the space ships you are talking about have access to an arbitrarily large amount of energy. As the ship accelerated towards the speed of light, it would take exponentially larger amounts of energy to continually accelerate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Your comment about mass is wrong. Momentum approaches infinity, not mass. In classical physics, momentum is just the product of mass and velocity, but in both special relativity and quantum physics, momentum is a fundamental property of an object, just like mass. In fact, the mass of a moving object is invariant, meaning it never changes.

---

Actually, Momentum remains constant in any closed system, but the mass does approach infinity as the object approaches the speed of light. If you want me to explain relative momentum to you I will, but it is a bit indepth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

God, I hate having to correct people that haven't taken university courses on relativity, like me.

---

I hate having to correct bratty little kids who think taking a first year physics class makes them the smartest person on the internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

This is only true when the space ships you are talking about have access to an arbitrarily large amount of energy. As the ship accelerated towards the speed of light, it would take exponentially larger amounts of energy to continually accelerate.

---

My point is that to reach any arbitrary fraction of c requires a finite amount of energy. Getting to 0.9999c requires certain energy, and getting to 0.999999c requires more, but also a certain amount. Now where you draw the line between "a lot" and "too much" depends on your power source, ship design, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Actually, Momentum remains constant in any closed system,

---

Yes, but then you must include the momentum of the reaction mass used to reach said relativistic velocity. The momentum of the ship alone is then not a closed system and does increase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

but the mass does approach infinity as the object approaches the speed of light. If you want me to explain relative momentum to you I will, but it is a bit indepth.

---

No, mass is invariant. Momentum is given by gamma_u*m*v, where gamma_u is the Lorentz factor, m is invariant mass, and v is velocity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I hate having to correct bratty little kids who think taking a first year physics class makes them the smartest person on the internet.

---

All your points were incorrect.
I suggest you educate yourself, if you can:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Ships can travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light,

---

I don't know of any ship that will ever reach near 186,000m/s, and where are they going to get the immense power to do it and not run out before hand? Do you really think there's something out there with the power needed like you state that can travel at light/superluminal speeds?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

and I still don't see what sound has to do with this.

---

You don't know what sound has to do with this? Well, you're either going to have to travel at the speed of sound/supersonic/hypersonic or light/superluminal speeds to get anywhere light years away at a fast pace. So far we don't know of any ships that travel at the speed of light or superluminal speeds, so obviously they're traveling at supersonic or hypersonic speeds. I really don't know what the speed of sound has to do with supersonic or hypersonic speeds either, LOL. Just kidding. Unless you think aliens are capable of traveling with a HEMI in their space ship to get here lightyears away, then I suspect you believe they're going at the speed of sound or faster since we know that's actually possible.

On the other hand, they could use wormholes, which once again is VERY unlikely. Unless they've learned how to make two black holes from their galaxy to ours and connect them and keep them open long enough for them to travel from there to here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Your comment about mass is wrong. Momentum approaches infinity, not mass. In classical physics, momentum is just the product of mass and velocity, but in both special relativity and quantum physics, momentum is a fundamental property of an object, just like mass. In fact, the mass of a moving object is invariant, meaning it never changes.

---

Then Einstein was wrong, poor guy. You better go back and fix Einstein's theory since he's wrong. Even if Einstein was wrong about mass being infinite, or the scientists that looked at his theory and gathered that mass is infinite are wrong, he still believed traveling at light or faster is impossible, at least in our time.

This is from a "time travel" article.

Quote:

---

According to Einstein's theory, approaching the speed of light would theoretically slow time, traveling at the speed of light would make it stand still and traveling faster than the speed of light would reverse time.

But Einstein also showed that traveling at or faster than the speed of light is impossible because mass at these speeds becomes infinite.

---

Quote:

---

A law of science, determined by Albert Einstein, says nothing can travel faster than the speed of light -- 186,000 miles per second. The fastest object made by man, the Voyager spacecraft is travelling along at 11 miles per second. At that rate, the scientific probe Voyager, launched in 1977, would take 73,000 years to reach the nearest star.

---

If aliens can visit, how did they get here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by juroara

ppssssttt.......... >_>

they say they travel in another layer of the physical unseen to the human eyes. where you travel at the speed of thought. the only way to inter stellar travel and get anywhere on time is to get, dimensional!

---

Right. Like Abraxas from Fantastic 4?

I think any question as to how they are getting here is completely irrelevant. We simply don't have the knowledge to know if quick space travel is possible. Our science is too limited to possibly understand any method of travel space-faring extra terrestrials might use.

If they can't get here, it's impossible for them to be here. You need to question how they're getting here and if it's found impossible, then they're obviously not coming here. Most scientists believe if they are traveling here, they're millions of years more advanced than us.

They're definitely either traveling through worm holes or light/superluminal speeds. Anything else, they're not getting here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

I don't know of any ship that will ever reach near 186,000m/s, and where are they going to get the immense power to do it and not run out before hand? Do you really think there's something out there with the power needed like you state that can travel at light/superluminal speeds?

---

It's been shown through technical studies that a ship propelled by nuclear blasts can reach at least 0.1c with a reasonable amount of bombs. Add fusion into the mix and I don't see why higher speeds wouldn't be possible. Also, you're arguing about feasibility with our current technology, which isn't relevant when discussing advanced aliens. All we can say is, according to the known laws of physics, they can go close to the speed of light if they have the fuel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

You don't know what sound has to do with this? Well, you're either going to have to travel at the speed of sound/supersonic/hypersonic or light/superluminal speeds to get anywhere light years away at a fast pace. So far we don't know of any ships that travel at the speed of light or superluminal speeds, so obviously they're traveling at supersonic or hypersonic speeds. I really don't know what the speed of sound has to do with supersonic or hypersonic speeds either, LOL. Just kidding. Unless you think aliens are capable of traveling with a HEMI in their space ship to get here lightyears away, then I suspect you believe they're going at the speed of sound or faster since we know that's actually possible.

---

No orbital rocket in the history of mankind has ever gone less than several times the speed of sound. Again, I ask what the speed of sound has to do with anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

On the other hand, they could use wormholes, which once again is VERY unlikely. Unless they've learned how to make two black holes from their galaxy to ours and connect them and keep them open long enough for them to travel from there to here.

---

Or, they could just go really close to c and have an on-ship travel time of mere years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Then Einstein was wrong, poor guy. You better go back and fix Einstein's theory since he's wrong. Even if Einstein was wrong about mass being infinite, or the scientists that looked at his theory and gathered that mass is infinite are wrong, he still believed traveling at light or faster is impossible, at least in our time.

This is from a "time travel" article.

---

Ok, so your source is ABC news. Hmm. Here's my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity
Educate yourself, please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

It's been shown through technical studies that a ship propelled by nuclear blasts can reach at least 0.1c with a reasonable amount of bombs. Add fusion into the mix and I don't see why higher speeds wouldn't be possible. Also, you're arguing about feasibility with our current technology, which isn't relevant when discussing advanced aliens. All we can say is, according to the known laws of physics, they can go close to the speed of light if they have the fuel.

---

Why should one expect there's a race as advanced as ours out there? If there is, they've been here for millions of years longer than ours, I'm sure.

What type of fuel are they using? It must be something we've never came into contact with since most UFO sightings seem to be small aircrafts. Either that, or it burns REALLY slow. Maybe they get about 1,000,000 lightyears to the gallon?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

No orbital rocket in the history of mankind has ever gone less than several times the speed of sound. Again, I ask what the speed of sound has to do with anything.

---

Ok, if aliens are flying in ships to get here (I.E. NOT USING WORMHOLES, OTHER DIMENSIONS, ETC. ETC.), they're traveling at the speed of light or faster. If the speed of light is impossible for them, they're traveling at the speed of sound or faster. If they're traveling at the speed of sound, which is more logical to think right now, they're not getting here. If they are, then they're immortal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

Ok, so your source is ABC news. Hmm. Here's my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity
Educate yourself, please.

---

ABC's source was scientists. So I guess the scientists need to educate themselves? Why are you telling people to educate themselves, then posting Wikipedia articles? Last time I checked, anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. I've even went on there and edited a few in my days.

I don't see why the mention of the speed of sound or hypersonic either... Speed of sound is 767.3 mph, and the speed of light is 670,616,629.2 mph. The speed of sound is so slow on a stellar scale that you might as well say "faster than zero" instead of "hypersonic". lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Why should one expect there's a race as advanced as ours out there? If there is, they've been here for millions of years longer than ours, I'm sure.

---

Maybe. But the speed of light won't necessarily ever be broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

What type of fuel are they using? It must be something we've never came into contact with since most UFO sightings seem to be small aircrafts. Either that, or it burns REALLY slow. Maybe they get about 1,000,000 lightyears to the gallon?

---

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't believe in that UFO nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Ok, if aliens are flying in ships to get here (I.E. NOT USING WORMHOLES, OTHER DIMENSIONS, ETC. ETC.), they're traveling at the speed of light or faster. If the speed of light is impossible for them, they're traveling at the speed of sound or faster. If they're traveling at the speed of sound, which is more logical to think right now, they're not getting here. If they are, then they're immortal.

---

So, what you're saying is, if they're not going faster than light, then they're going at exactly the speed of sound. For some reason, you can only imagine them going either faster than light, or 767 mph. Nowhere in between.

But let's for a moment entertain the possibility that they can go a significant fraction of c. Were you aware that travel times for a traveler going close to c are significantly shortened due to relativity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

ABC's source was scientists. So I guess the scientists need to educate themselves? Why are you telling people to educate themselves, then posting Wikipedia articles? Last time I checked, anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. I've even went on there and edited a few in my days.

---

Scientists talking to the media usually dumb things down a lot. I know that if I was talking to ABC, I wouldn't bother mentioning the difference between mass and momentum.

Wikipedia is actually quite reliable more than a few hours after someone like you edits something.

Quote:

---

Wikipedia is actually quite reliable more than a few hours after someone like you edits something.

---

Concurred. People are always like "wikipedia isn't accurate, anyone can edit the shit"

Yeah, exactly, the only form of censorship it has is verification. Nonsense gets removed usually within 10 minutes or at least given a big "this article is bs" slogan and a bunch of [citation needed]s.

But anyway, we don't know enough about the universe to make claims how it works quite yet. We're still just beginning to learn about it. Einstein was not content with his theories, he thought they were incomplete. I can't verify this, I heard it in a documentary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

So, what you're saying is, if they're not going faster than light, then they're going at exactly the speed of sound. For some reason, you can only imagine them going either faster than light, or 767 mph. Nowhere in between.

---

I've mentioned supersonic and hypersonic. If they're not traveling at the speed of light, or near it, they're not going to get here anytime soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drewmandan

But let's for a moment entertain the possibility that they can go a significant fraction of c. Were you aware that travel times for a traveler going close to c are significantly shortened due to relativity?

---

I already know due to relativity, theoretically, if you get near the speed of light, time seems to slow down, if you go the speed of light, time seems to stand still, and if you go faster time goes in reverse.

I seriously don't think anything out there is that advanced yet. Sure, there may be lifeforms out there like us, or more advanced, but I doubt they're advanced enough to create air crafts the size of a bus (since that's about the size of them or smaller on videos and pictures) or so that can go light speeds. Unless they have some type of weird material that is powering their air crafts. Every video I've ever seen, except one, shows the aircraft blasting off at some high speed, I've never heard a sonic boom or anything on the videos. I've seen one video of an aircraft "teleporting," but it looked like a cheap edit something could easily do with a program.

nitsuj, you come off as a very negative person that only thinks of things as being impossible unless it is already possible today

if everyone thought like you there would be no progress. we would just stick our heads in the mud and shit on it

someone has to think outside of the box. someone has to imagine the impossible. scientists, inventors have to dream of impossible things for progress to be made

earthlings are tiny little specks of dust in the greatness of the universe. its a extremely naive to think our tiny little specks of scientists have discovered everything there is to be known - and that we understand all there is and ever will be to space travel. to say its impossible for any alien race to travel great distances at great speeds, in RELATIVE short times - is NAIVE.

you are saying you know for a sure of that which we do not know. its just soo much more honest to just be open and say "I don't understand it"

just let go. think OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX. its okay. its funner on the other side of possibilities. life is more positive. the future has a brighter outlook. you see more options in life.

can you or can you not accept, that something you don't currently understand can still be possible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

I seriously don't think anything out there is that advanced yet. Sure, there may be lifeforms out there like us, or more advanced, but I doubt they're advanced enough to create air crafts the size of a bus (since that's about the size of them or smaller on videos and pictures) or so that can go light speeds. Unless they have some type of weird material that is powering their air crafts. Every video I've ever seen, except one, shows the aircraft blasting off at some high speed, I've never heard a sonic boom or anything on the videos. I've seen one video of an aircraft "teleporting," but it looked like a cheap edit something could easily do with a program.

---

Again, I don't believe those things in the videos are aliens. I think most of them are frisbees. When I envision a ship that goes 0.99c, I think of a ship miles long that is mostly fuel.

Your skepticism is good, and brings relevant questions to mind. However, you must also think outside the box to search for other possibilities for physical limits and what have you.

As far as advancement goes, I think considering our species has been on this planet for less than the bat of an eyelash, we have just barely started to carve a path for ourselves when it comes to technology. 100 years ago, most people still didn't have electricity. 50 years ago, the interweb was just Al Gore's pipe dream. The only reason it's leveled off now is because our economic system does not support the technological advancement of mankind or anything that can make their lives easier and increase abundancy.

All I'm saying is I think most intelligent species in the galaxy think of us like some sort of guatamala.