Right to Commit Suicide?

This thought popped into my head out of nowhere today. I have absolutely no history of suicidal thoughts, nor do I plan to. It is merely something to think about. Should people be allowed to commit suicide if they want? I've heard these stories of someone about to jump off of a bridge to commit suicide and then a random police officer doesn't let him/her. Or similar stories like that.

Should the government really label you as mentally unstable because you're choosing to bring a death to yourself now that you will experience one day anyways?

Suicide has had many different lights shed on it by legal systems of different countries.


Here's a bit I pulled from Wikipedia:

Spoiler for Suicide laws:

Australia (Victoria)

In the Australian state of Victoria, while suicide itself is no longer a crime, a survivor of a suicide pact can be charged with manslaughter. Also, it is a crime to counsel, incite, or aid and abet another to attempt or commit suicide, and the law explicitly allows any person to use "such force as may reasonably be necessary" to prevent another from committing suicide.

England and Wales

Suicide (and thus also attempted suicide) was illegal under English Law but ceased to be an offence with the passing of the Suicide Act 1961; the same Act makes it an offence to assist a suicide. While the simple act of suicide is lawful the consequences of committing suicide might turn an individual event into an unlawful act, as in the case of Reeves v Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis [2000] 1 AC 360 [3], where a man in police custody hanged himself and was held equally liable with the police (a cell door defect enabled the hanging) for the loss suffered by his widow; the practical effect was to reduce the police damages liability by 50%.

India

In India, attempted suicide is a punishable crime by up to one year in prison and/or fine. For a brief while, the courts had repealed the section of the penal code which prohibited suicide but a recent decision of the Indian Supreme Court has upheld the constitutional validity of prohibiting suicide.

Ireland

Attempted suicide is not a criminal offence in Ireland. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are illegal however. Under Irish law self-harm is not generally seen as a form of attempted suicide.

Netherlands

In the Netherlands, being present and giving moral support during someone's suicide is not a crime; neither is supplying general information on suicide techniques. However, it is a crime to participate in the preparation for or execution of a suicide, including supplying lethal means or instruction in their use. (Euthanasia may be an exception. See Euthanasia in the Netherlands.)

Russian Federation

In Russia, inciting someone to suicide by threats, cruel treatment or systematic humiliation is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. (Article 110 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation)

Scotland

Suicide is not an offence under Scots Law thus there is no offence committed by attempting suicide as there is in England and Wales. A person who assists a suicide might be charged with murder, culpable homicide or no offence at all depending upon the facts of each case.

Singapore

In Singapore, a person attempting to commit suicide can be imprisoned by up to one year.

United States

In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5]

In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.

I'm not sure where I stand on it as I've never actually thought about this before.

I think people should be able to. Of course no person in their right mind would commit suicide out of the blue, but those who have been really screwed over in life should have the option. This is not to say I think they SHOULD commit suicide, as I would suggest some type of counseling/advice first, but making it illegal is ridiculous.

Everything is suicide.

It is beautiful.

Why the **** is it even a crime? someone else, YES, but yourself? retarded.

I must take the opportunity to quote Terry Pratchett:

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Suicide was against the law. Johnny had wondered why. It meant that if you missed, or the gas ran out, or the rope broke, you could get locked up in prison to show you that life was really very jolly and thoroughly worth living.

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What Kiza said... That quote is made of win.

And no, it should not be against the law. If a police officer tried to arrest me for doing it, I'd assault him/her on purpose in the hopes that they shoot me out of self defense.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue either, but, just to bring up an argument from the other side:

Homicide is illegal for a very good reason, and that is to promote a functional society. And suicide is just a very special case of homicide.

If suicide were legal, that would be like saying: Listen folks, it's NOT okay to kill people, but it's okay to kill YOURSELF. (Why? Am I not a person, too?)

Homicide being illegal and suicide being legal would be very contradictory. If something's going to be against the law, it may as well be against the law evenly across the board.




But obviously there's no easy solution because Terry Pratchett's quote there sums up the problem quite well! :lol:

It's your life, it's your decision. But, it's not in the human's nature to kill themselves, so in that case they are mentally unstable.

It's supposed to be in our nature to survive, not die.

I have to counter that, Mes. Y'see, homicide is impinging on the freedom of another person. Namely, the freedom to not be killed. It may not be a very sophisticated freedom, but it's a pretty big one. Suicide, though, is in your hands. You're not impinging on anyone elses freedom except your own. And your freedom is completely yours, as is your life, and both are decided by you as to what to do with them.

I don't necessarily support suicide. Sometimes, there are better way of resolving things. But the point remains valid.

Also,

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Originally Posted by ClouD

Everything is suicide.

It is beautiful.

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:/ Explain.

^^ I agree with that argument, although I doubt it would convince law-makers. Whenever I hear the it's your life argument, I think of some 14 year old boy shouting at his mom, "It's MY life, I can do whatever I WANT!" and slamming his bedroom door.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

^^ I agree with that argument, although I doubt it would convince law-makers. Whenever I hear the it's your life argument, I think of some 14 year old boy shouting at his mom, "It's MY life, I can do whatever I WANT!" and slamming his bedroom door.

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It is his life, and he can do whatever he wants. Even though his decision may be stupid, since he is more than likely stupid.

People make dumb decisions, suicide *in most cases* is one of them.

Surely there must be a more eloquent argument than "it's my life and I can do what I want with it." I mean... surely! Come on!

Maybe one reason why that argument is really only used by kids is because adults understand that it's not always about your life.

So, basically what you're saying, nitsuJ, is it's his choice. Free will, right? Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Yes, there is free will. And, if through his suicide he doesn't impinge on anyone else, I kind of agree with that.

Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want. I'll have to pinch another quote from Terry Pratchett for this (somewhat paraphrased):

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"There is always a choice."
"You mean I could choose certain death?"
"A choice nevertheless, or perhaps an alternative. You see I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the other are based."

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Basically, that's free will for me. Yes, you can do whatever you want, but you're going to have to face the consequences if you really believe it's an excuse to do whatever you want.

I realise that was a bit of a tangent. I just wanted to get that out.

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Originally Posted by Kiza

So, basically what you're saying, nitsuJ, is it's his choice. Free will, right? Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Yes, there is free will. And, if through his suicide he doesn't impinge on anyone else, I kind of agree with that.

Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want. I'll have to pinch another quote from Terry Pratchett for this (somewhat paraphrased):



Basically, that's free will for me. Yes, you can do whatever you want, but you're going to have to face the consequences if you really believe it's an excuse to do whatever you want.

I realise that was a bit of a tangent. I just wanted to get that out.

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So you disagree that suicide should be a person's choice, because I'm talking about free will to commit suicide, and you've kind of confused me with the "Free will, though, is not an excuse to whatever the hell you want." statement! :p

Everyone knows the consequences of suicide, death. That's the only thing they'll have to face if they succeed.

Yeah, that probably was confusing. Really, I was agreeing with you. The other freewill bit was just a random tangent, because I'm a pretentious bastard. Yes, the only consequence of suicide is death. I was just ranting on about people who use "free will" as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want. Once again, to me, most of the time suicide is the wrong choice. They have the right, but that doesn't mean they're right to do so.

Heh. I'm hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Kiza

Yeah, that probably was confusing. Really, I was agreeing with you. The other freewill bit was just a random tangent, because I'm a pretentious bastard. Yes, the only consequence of suicide is death. I was just ranting on about people who use "free will" as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want. Once again, to me, most of the time suicide is the wrong choice. They have the right, but that doesn't mean they're right to do so.

Heh. I'm hilarious.

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I agree with what you've said. I think suicide is dumb, and a coward's way out.

I believe if some people just sat and thought to themselves, "is suicide really worth it," they'd change their minds. Most of the time people commit suicide because of relationship problems, probably. That's the majority of suicide reasons I've heard of. Relationship problems, seriously? You must be kidding me. Think of all the kids/adults that's abused physically/verbally every day by their parents/spouses/partners. The people starving each day not knowing when the next time they'll get a meal. The people laying in a hospital bed somewhere slowly dying and in extreme pain. Not to mention other problems. Does that relationship problem look as bad as these others now? I doubt it does.

Some people are just spoiled and come to dumb conclusions. Suicide is never the answer, it doesn't really solve your problems if you really think about it. Suicide does more harm than good the majority of the time anyways.

Right.

Maybe one more obvious reason why suicide is illegal is to try to discourage people from trying it. That is, you can try it, but you'll be in big trouble if you fail.

I do wonder what the general public's reaction would be if suddenly it was announced that suicide is legal.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Right.

Maybe one more obvious reason why suicide is illegal is to try to discourage people from trying it. That is, you can try it, but you'll be in big trouble if you fail.

I do wonder what the general public's reaction would be if suddenly it was announced that suicide is legal.

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Probably be a huge outcry!

I wonder if it became legal would all of the kids that cry "suicide" for attention still do it?

It may just be my severe sleep deprivation . . . but isn't it?

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United States

In the United States, suicide has never been punished as a crime nor penalized by property forfeiture or ignominious burial.[citation needed] Historically, various states listed the act as a felony, but all were reluctant to enforce it. By 1963, six states still considered attempted suicide a crime (North and South Dakota, Washington, New Jersey, Nevada, and Oklahoma that repealed its law in 1976). By the early 1990s only two US states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification. In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," that is, a crime based on the law of old England as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in Wackwitz v. Roy in 1992.) As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the family of the suicidal person in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary, not voluntary, act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded money damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[4] Some legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[5]

In many jurisdictions medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment. See Code 5150 for example.

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Originally Posted by nitsuJ

It is his life, and he can do whatever he wants. Even though his decision may be stupid, since he is more than likely stupid.

People make dumb decisions, suicide *in most cases* is one of them.

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I've always thought that too. Hearing about suicide has always angered me because it seems like a selfish thing that only leaves the person's loved ones in pain.

But...

Is it really a stupid decision? Is he really more than likely stupid? I mean, considering we don't know the circumstances of a person's suicide. We don't know why or what reasons they have for committing the act.

It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest.

If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb?

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Originally Posted by De-lousedInTheComatorium

It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest.

If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb?

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Abortion is an entirely different situation because the fundamental conflict of abortion is if/when the fetus is considered a human life. Such a conflict does not exist with suicide.

If you killed someone today, it would seem dumb under any circumstance because if you kill someone today, maybe you will kill someone tomorrow, and then somewhere down the line maybe you will kill an innocent person.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Abortion is an entirely different situation because the fundamental conflict of abortion is if/when the fetus is considered a human life. Such a conflict does not exist with suicide.

If you killed someone today, it would seem dumb under any circumstance because if you kill someone today, maybe you will kill someone tomorrow, and then somewhere down the line maybe you will kill an innocent person.

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I mean in terms of "Well it depends..." kind of stuff. The same way people think abortion is okay under certain conditions, can't suicide be the same way? Not legally, but logically.

Yeah I suppose. Like if you're slowly dying at the hospital from 80% burns or something, and you just want to speed up the process.

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Originally Posted by Kiza

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Originally Posted by ClouD

Everything is suicide.

It is beautiful.

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:/ Explain.

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We are running our selves into the ground.
That is the only thing to do.
With every breath, dying, expending.

We all have 'right'. By birth, we have every right.
We can kill another person with that birthright, restrict them from killing themselves, proclaim laws.

We are animated soil, waves of the ocean overlapping into ourselves.
Yes, I say this dance is beautiful.

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Originally Posted by De-lousedInTheComatorium

I've always thought that too. Hearing about suicide has always angered me because it seems like a selfish thing that only leaves the person's loved ones in pain.

But...

Is it really a stupid decision? Is he really more than likely stupid? I mean, considering we don't know the circumstances of a person's suicide. We don't know why or what reasons they have for committing the act.

It's like abortion. People say it's dumb unless under the circumstances of rape or incest.

If I said, "I killed someone today." You may be horrified and disgusted. What if I said, "I killed a well-known serial killer, child rapist, and bank robber."? Now that you actually know the situation, does it really still seem dumb?

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That's why I said in most cases suicide is dumb, I can see some reasons a person would consider suicide and it'd be a decent decision. Like someone with cancer so bad that they're going to die soon anyways, and they're in constant pain, or something terrible like that. But, people killing themselves because their girlfriend/wife, or boyfriend/husband leave them, or some other stupid reason like that is just dumb.

Those people should be punched square in the face by kangaroo.

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Originally Posted by nitsuJ

That's why I said in most cases suicide is dumb, I can see some reasons a person would consider suicide and it'd be a decent decision. Like someone with cancer so bad that they're going to die soon anyways, and they're in constant pain, or something terrible like that. But, people killing themselves because their girlfriend/wife, or boyfriend/husband leave them, or some other stupid reason like that is just dumb.

Those people should be punched square in the face by kangaroo.

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Would me making an F on a test affect you in any way like it would affect me?

I think from a legal persepective, attempting suicide shouldn't give doctors or the police the right to violently keep you from doing it by restraining you physically, taking stuff away from you, taking you into custody etc. However, they should be required to talk to you in ways that would keep you from doing it. Also, if the person is physically unable to commit suicide, he should get assistance. It should be illegal to encourage someone to commit suicide.

The connection to mental stability and health is very important here. The question is whether being mentally sane and stable and wanting to commit suicide are mutually exclusive. Because if they are, my argument is shit because (a) you can't make an informed decision about ending your life and (b) doctors and police should then be required to protect your life by using physical force.

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Originally Posted by De-lousedInTheComatorium

Would me making an F on a test affect you in any way like it would affect me?

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No. Are you trying to tie that comparison in with the boyfriend/girlfriend thing? Because it's dumb for anyone to kill themselves over losing a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife. RE to the TARDED. Life goes on, get over it.

Do we not own our bodies?

Not if you have a government.

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Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Not if you have a government.

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Har har.

But still, to the people that think suicide should be "illegal". Do we not own our bodies?

Suicide shouldn't be illegal, but interfering with someone else's suicide attempt(s) shouldn't be illegal either. I think that's what's basically understood in most of today's society.

It doesn't matter if suicide is illegal because no one is gonna punish you when you're dead. If the police catches you the first time, then try, try again.

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Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

but interfering with someone else's suicide attempt(s) shouldn't be illegal either. I think that's what's basically understood in most of today's society.

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I disagree. To actually "interfere" requires violence in the form of restraining them.

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Originally Posted by esfx

I disagree. To actually "interfere" requires violence in the form of restraining them.

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So?

You mean, say, elbowing someone to stop them committing suicide is worse than someone actually dying?

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Originally Posted by esfx

I disagree. To actually "interfere" requires violence in the form of restraining them.

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Uhm, not all.

If someone tries to overdose on pills, and is found in enough time, they get sent to the ER where they pump their stomach out. That's not violence at all. Really, if they had a gun about to shoot themselves, a person would probably fight and try to get the gun away. So I don't think there would be much violence in interfering with a person trying to commit suicide.

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Originally Posted by NightLife

It doesn't matter if suicide is illegal because no one is gonna punish you when you're dead. If the police catches you the first time, then try, try again.

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Yeah, but the whole point of suicide being illegal is that they can still prosecute if you attempt suicide.

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Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Uhm, not all.

If someone tries to overdose on pills, and is found in enough time, they get sent to the ER where they pump their stomach out. That's not violence at all. Really, if they had a gun about to shoot themselves, a person would probably fight and try to get the gun away. So I don't think there would be much violence in interfering with a person trying to commit suicide.

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In that situation, you're incapacitated so it's never clear what your intention was. But I'm talking about if a person says they will, and then you restrain them to prevent it.

I think suicide is definately wrong (I think it's an affront to God and the universe, but that's a whole other concept), I'd stop short at saying it should be illegal though. Discouraged as much as otherwise possible, yes. Illegal...not so sure.

There are enough laws in this life without one that governs whether or not one chooses to be a part of it.

Besides, making it illegal wouldn't stop people from doing it anyway. Logical fallacy? Yes. How I feel? Yes again.

there are too many teens out there trying to commit suicide

we would be doing them an injustice by not trying to stop them, and allowing them to grow up or get help. my sister had a friend who committed suicide because his girl friend dumped in. OVER A TEENAGE GIRLFRIEND. teenagers are idiots. please, lets help them grow up. . .

we are a community, we share a government and a way of life. we have an obligation to our poor and mentally unstable. we should be asking why people are trying to commit suicide, and curing that disease rather than allowing them to off themselves and turn a blind eye on what created their suffering.

there are those who are suicidal for medical reasons, crippled from neck down. should it be legal? these cases I find, are personal. I am a hopeful person, but hope is not something you can give to another person. who am I to tell a crippled, cheer up? but even if this person, gives up on them self, does that give us the right to give up? or should we be trying to do everything to give this person back their life?

there are those who are suicidal for mental reasons, they are miserable people. its these we need to stop the most. they are suffering from a disease that makes them overwhelmed with what makes them unhappy. And that can mean, being self absorbed in their own misery. Now there are many suicidal folk in this category who are concerned about the way the world is going, and they use this as a reason for being suicidial. And argue that because its the way the world is that makes them suicidal, that their desire to off them self is not self absorbed

if you know someone is suffering, like from starvation, and their suffering hurts you, how does killing yourself solve THEIR problem? It doesn't. It just solves YOUR problem of having to feel sympathy for another. A better solution is to reach out to those you can help

there are others who are suicidal because they have lost everything they have loved. maybe war has taken away all their loved ones. or a tsunami, or a hurricane, who knows - there are many tragedies

sometimes, its not what we do after, but what we do before

we live our lives naively believing things belong to us. that your parents belong to you. that your lover or your children, or your home, belongs to you. but the reality is, nothing outside of yourself belongs to you. You can't stop a storm from taking away your home. It was never yours to keep. You can't stop death from taking away a loved one. They were never yours to keep.

YOU OWN NOTHING.

This is partly why we are suffering so much. We have lost sight of REALITY. We have this imaginary world, of who owns what and who owns this, and nature doesn't give a fuck!

and that might sound miserable in itself, but its a call to be grateful. Gratitude is missing in the western world. When you express gratitude, you express happiness.



my answer is no, suicide should not be legalized. nor am I saying it is illegal. it is like a disease that needs to be cured

It's their life. Who's to say they can't end it if they want? Who would even be there to stop them? And why would they care if it was illegal? They would be dead so it's not like they'd go to jail. I think failed public suicide attempts should be punishable though. Like jumping off of a building into a crowd and surviving or something like that.

Of course anyone thinking about suicide should seek some medical attention.

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Originally Posted by blahaha

It's their life. Who's to say they can't end it if they want?

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Originally Posted by blahaha

Of course anyone thinking about suicide should seek some medical attention.

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I don't see how you can put those two things together.

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Originally Posted by De-lousedInTheComatorium

Should the government really label you as mentally unstable because you're choosing to bring a death to yourself now that you will experience one day anyways?

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Definitely.