Thread: Grr... Stupid people and Medicine

Countries without national healthcare have always seemed to me as underdeveloped. Britain has had such a system for half a century, and it seems very strange from here that a country as mighty as America still does not care for the poor and ill.

Britain is too socialist at the moment though. We are currently in a situation where we give houses to people so long as they don't go to work (in which case their income will be too high and we'd have to take them away), which is obviously fucked up; however our current government is going to be gone in less than a year.

The opposition would never remove the NHS though. It's such a necessity that it isn't really even considered under the socialist umbrella. It's like education.

The US is a very underdeveloped country, that's why we're in trouble right now. We have a conservative problem. They are interested in short term monetary gains for themselves. It's why our social security will collapse soon and why the stock market recently turned upside down.

I understand neither arguement.
I was a military brat all my life, then I married and had nothing. I moved and received State Assistance. From experience, HMO's suck. For the most part, they treat patients as numbers only and it feels like you're in a cattle line being pushed along for the slaughter.
As soon as I obtained insurance through my new hubby, it was like a new world opened up to me. And when they learned I was the wife of a fellow Doctor, I was treated as if royalty.
Or so I've felt. I stood back a few times to watch people processed. Those on HMO's are definitely treated more poorly but it's with an almost (seemingly) ignorant mindset. It's not maliciously done in all cases.

I would be terrified to lose my insurance, especially to receive State assistance or some other form of government operated/controlled program.

Originally Posted by Richard Nixon

Not bad.

omigosh nixon is a DV member? heehe

i agree with you, ninja for the most part. you should see the movie 'sicko' if you haven't already... that reifies a lot of what you're getting at.

I saw part of it. I find Michael Moore kind of annoying. I remember watching it after I watched him lash out at CNN for spreading lies about him.

Do you think nationalization of healthcare is a good thing during this economy? The whole thing is about increased power for the national government. The more areas of your life they can control, the better for them. And some people do not want or need healthcare (think about the college students that need to save money and are healthy). Recently the fed gov nationalized (at least to some extent) the car industry with GM, the banking industry with the buyouts, and now healthcare. You cannot seriously tell me that this is good time for this. For them, it is a great time, since they are hitting us with so much at once. The American people cannot tell all of what is happening and focus on the problems of it. Can't wait for a leftist response.

Originally Posted by Exhalent

Do you think nationalization of healthcare is a good thing during this economy?

Instead of spending all their money on outrageously priced medical care, patients would have more money to inject into the economy.

I wouldn't be in one piece today if it wasn't for socialized health care.

If you follow that same logic, it would have been a good idea to give people tax cuts and lower the capital gains tax... which did not happen because apparently paying off a credit card with another credit card (metaphorically) is somehow logical to this government . Oh well, before we know it USA will drop in power and China or India will become the world superpower. It is a bad day when China is more American than America (even they do not like some of the things we did recently like Cap n Tax, but that is for a different thread). In the end, all it takes is a matter of time for corruption to occur. Cheers.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Any other right-wing propaganda arguments that people would like to throw at me?

Yes, tell me again how great Obama's plan is going to be????????

So lets see....there are 44 million Americans that do not have insurance and perhaps have postponed their health care needs for this reason. Not considering these newly insured individuals into the following equation, the American Nurses Assoc, states that over 1,000,000 new nurses will be needed by the year 2016. Adding the newly insured into the equation will increase the demand by an additional 10-15 percent. So lets see there will be a need for 1,150,000 additional nurses in 7 years. There is currently a vacancy rate of around 9% in all acute care hospitals for nurses. With Obama’s health care plan this nurse vacancy rate will increase an additional 14.4% making the vacancy rate for acute care nurses at 23.4%..........omg! This means if you are deathly ill and there are not enough nurses to staff the hospital, you will either lie in your hospital bed and die without care or not even be admitted to the hospital. Oh, and this will only occur if the hospital HAS any open beds since hospitals were not put on notice 5 years ago to start massive building-expansion programs which are needed to provide rooms for a 14% increase in patients.

I could go on for hours with EVERY medical specialty including primary care physicians.
My point is: No type of medical plan that our government shoves upon us will succeed UNTIL there is a ten year plan to pay for and educate health care providers into university professors THEN open massive numbers of additional health care provider programs in universities AND PAY for their education. The process of socializing medical care in the USA will be wretched because our government hasn’t realized that there are not enough health care providers to provide care for an additional 44 million people. The waiting lines for most inner city ERs are now over 12 hours long. With an additional 44 million people suddenly dumped into the medical system......we are all fugged because the lines will be 3 weeks long. There are not enough medical providers! There WILL be rationing of health care in Obama’s plan but it will come through the OUTRAGEOUSLY LONG LINES .

There are already long waiting lines in inner-city hospitals for every department and a dangerous shortage of health care professionals. Get healthy now, man, cause the new Obama plan is going to make you really sick.

Originally Posted by Exhalent

Do you think nationalization of healthcare is a good thing during this economy? The whole thing is about increased power for the national government. The more areas of your life they can control, the better for them. And some people do not want or need healthcare (think about the college students that need to save money and are healthy). Recently the fed gov nationalized (at least to some extent) the car industry with GM, the banking industry with the buyouts, and now healthcare. You cannot seriously tell me that this is good time for this. For them, it is a great time, since they are hitting us with so much at once. The American people cannot tell all of what is happening and focus on the problems of it. Can't wait for a leftist response.

I am a liberal, I am dead-set against government controlling people. That is a very conservative idea. Liberals believe in government serving the people, not controlling them.

Do you honestly think that the current economic problem is going to be fixed by leaving the health care system the way it is, with costs rising 5x faster than inflation? We pay more indirectly to the health insurance companies than we would in taxes, but a large amount. Did you read the short about money? It's pretty short. Buyouts are stupid. And no, the timing isn't right yet, just the plan is. The democratic congress need to stop bailing out the big companies and fix the things that Bush fucked up first. BTW, a few hundred billion dollars is nothing compared to the cost of the Iraq war. The idiot democrats need to pull their heads out of their asses, then pull the troops out of Iraq to fix the economy. You can't have an economy if all of it's money goes overseas.

Originally Posted by Liz

Yes, tell me again how great Obama's plan is going to be????????

So lets see....there are 44 million Americans that do not have insurance and perhaps have postponed their health care needs for this reason. Not considering these newly insured individuals into the following equation, the American Nurses Assoc, states that over 1,000,000 new nurses will be needed by the year 2016. Adding the newly insured into the equation will increase the demand by an additional 10-15 percent. So lets see there will be a need for 1,150,000 additional nurses in 7 years. There is currently a vacancy rate of around 9% in all acute care hospitals for nurses. With Obama’s health care plan this nurse vacancy rate will increase an additional 14.4% making the vacancy rate for acute care nurses at 23.4%..........omg! This means if you are deathly ill and there are not enough nurses to staff the hospital, you will either lie in your hospital bed and die without care or not even be admitted to the hospital. Oh, and this will only occur if the hospital HAS any open beds since hospitals were not put on notice 5 years ago to start massive building-expansion programs which are needed to provide rooms for a 14% increase in patients.

I could go on for hours with EVERY medical specialty including primary care physicians.
My point is: No type of medical plan that our government shoves upon us will succeed UNTIL there is a ten year plan to pay for and educate health care providers into university professors THEN open massive numbers of additional health care provider programs in universities AND PAY for their education. The process of socializing medical care in the USA will be wretched because our government hasn’t realized that there are not enough health care providers to provide care for an additional 44 million people. The waiting lines for most inner city ERs are now over 12 hours long. With an additional 44 million people suddenly dumped into the medical system......we are all fugged because the lines will be 3 weeks long. There are not enough medical providers! There WILL be rationing of health care in Obama’s plan but it will come through the OUTRAGEOUSLY LONG LINES .

There are already long waiting lines in inner-city hospitals for every department and a dangerous shortage of health care professionals. Get healthy now, man, cause the new Obama plan is going to make you really sick.

If you recall from debates a long time ago, I never supported Obama's health plan. Obama has little experience in this field. This is Kennedy's plan. Kennedy has worked on this with the best experts in the field for 25 years. Obama's plan is Universal Health Care, which will only work in the wealthy states. It's working great in Massachusetts, that's only because it's a very liberal and therefore very wealthy state. It won't work in Alabama or Texas.

I don't understand your argument about long lines. Socialized vs Capitalized has nothing to do with how many providers there are, it has to do with where the money comes from, that's it. Instead of a for-profit insurance company paying for your treatment, it's the government. Like in all hospitals, they still treat things in order of severity. Emergencies come first, some redneck with a fishing lure stuck in his mouth is last.

Just so that everyone knows, this already exists in the US. Medicare is socialized medicine at a very low level. It just needs to be changed a little bit and expanded.

The principle cause of ER waiting lines is because the acute care hospital beds are FULL and/or there are NOT any nurses to take care of more patients in any empty beds. Yes, ‘tards coming into the ER for minor problems are a tiny part of the overcrowding but not the major cause. Very ill patients are trapped in the ER because they cannot be sent to full hospital beds or empty beds where there are not nurses to care for them. Therefore, there are no exam rooms left in the ER.....because they are full of patients waiting to go “upstairs”. At the inner city hospital where I practice, if a patient makes it out of the ER and upstairs within 16 hours, we contact the Pope..... a miracle has occurred. This is true for every specialty/department.

The ER is not the only department that has long lines. How many non-emergent appointments have you made lately with a physician and received an appointment within 4 months? When 44 million people are dumped into the medical system, the lines will dramatically and dangerously lengthen because there are not enough health care providers at this time....the people who have never had any health insurance may be harboring diseases in EVERY organ system...affectionately known as "train wrecks". There were not any studies to exam the diseases that the 44 million uninsured are experiencing. The newly insured will want to use their new insurance immediately. Who knows the wretched effects this new plan will bring? Not our govenment for sure, they didn't bother to study it. It may be a lot worse than I can even fathom. Let's pray some damned epidemic doesn't strike at the same time as the "new, non-investigated plan" is implemented.
Start the Lord have mercy chants.

Originally Posted by Liz

"new, non-investigated plan".

How is socialized medicine new and non-investigated. Every civilized country in the world other than the US and Australia have it. New Zealand has had it for over 70 years.

My reference to "non-investigated plan"=providing an insurance plan to the chronically uninsured or under-insured Americans that have unknown health statuses. Who knows what this group will bring to the "table" when they finally arrive. Perhaps they are all 100% healthy. Perhaps a huge percentage are "train wrecks". This new plan is inviting individuals that may "immediately gulp down most of the food". Before this plan was even suggested, our government should have investigated this subject and then taken action to resolve problems.......train more health care providers immediately.

The National Institute of Mental Health has stated that 1 in 4 Americans has a mental health disorder. Most of these disorders are treatable. Without treatment America loses some 40 BILLION dollars in lost work days each year.

So....on day one of the new, non-investigated health plan, I estimate that the surge in people seeking treatment will far exceed this facility’s capacity. If those individuals actually show up at this facilityas opposed to harassing us on the phone, they will overwhelm it and possibly SHUT IT DOWN. We are not prepared for the flood of new patients. There are zero extra nurses to hire and our facility is already too small.

Oh yea, best of all, Obama’s non-investigated plan calls for the MANDITORY mental health screening of ALL AMERICANS. Yippee! Your mental health evaluation will supposedly be kept VERRRRRRRRRY SECRET! Only every health-care worker in America, that can operate a computer at his/her employment, will be able to VIEW it.

I’m gonna look up everyone on DV......hehe.

Every time I go to the doctor I think about what it would cost if I lived in the United States. I feel so thankful to be Canadian in this respect.

If socialized healthcare is so great, then why do so many of the people living under those systems come to the US to get surgery?

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I am a liberal, I am dead-set against government controlling people. That is a very conservative idea. Liberals believe in government serving the people, not controlling them.

This is off topic but I thought I should mention:
The problem is both conservatives and liberals are too much for government, both have become corrupt over the years. Be a constitutionalist as it hardly changes (because it is hardly amended)
Modern liberalism is full of socialists, communists, etc but conservatives also have problems. It is only classical liberalism such as the founding fathers of my country that are more towards smaller gov and somewhat near the middle.

Originally Posted by Exhalent

If socialized healthcare is so great, then why do so many of the people living under those systems come to the US to get surgery?

They don't. If they need to go overseas, it's because that's where the specialists that they require happen to be. The US is one of the largest countries in the world, a higher population means a higher number of doctors, which means more specialists. There are also people traveling out of the US for surgery. Again, why do you think that the fact that the money comes from the government instead of an HMO has anything to do with the doctors themselves?

Liz, the reason that there will be a flood is because of the capitalized medicine that we have. People don't get the treatment that they need because they can't afford it. When I broke my leg, I set it with a brook stick and an ace bandage. People should be able to go to the hospital if they need to. The backing up of people is because of the huge cost.

Liberals are never for a bigger government. Liberals are for more services provided by the government, but less controlling the people.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Liz, the reason that there will be a flood is because of the capitalized medicine that we have. People don't get the treatment that they need because they can't afford it. When I broke my leg, I set it with a brook stick and an ace bandage. People should be able to go to the hospital if they need to. The backing up of people is because of the huge cost.

You're not addressing the point she made. There quite possibly may be a flood. This is a problem. If the government is going to do anything, then they should take into account possible problems that may arise from the changes they make. If they are going to give us all free health care, then they should do so in a responsible manner.

Unfortunately, there is no way to do that except take the flood with grace. Things will be backed up for a while, but it will eventually calm down. There are a lot of people who need medical care that aren't getting it, if it goes free or cheaper, they are going to seek the help that they need. It would be best to do this switch in the spring or summer, because less people tend to be sick then.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

The only reason that conservative senators and such are against socialized medicine is because they have stock in the HMOs.

The "only" reason? Come on, Ninja. Is that really the best you can do? The other reasons are out there. Do some research.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

All of the crap that I hear about socialized medicine from the extreme right is completely wrong.

1. There is less incentive to be a doctor because of lower salaries: While the US does have the highest income for doctors in the world, we also have the highest salaries for almost all fields. Doctors still make well more than the average salary and private practice doctors usually make more than a million dollars a year in socialized medicine countries.

Well, at least you found a list of some reasons for opposition. Congratulations on your willingness to learn for a few seconds.

We have the highest salaries... now. We are not under a socialist system yet. Go figure. When the salaries go down, people of lower potential will become doctors and the people of higher potential will find other fields. Think about it. When the government controls, the government decides.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

2. It's more expensive because of taxes. Most countries have a about 2% higher tax than the US. But people pay absolutely nothing for health care. At $50,000 / year, 2% is $1000. The average cost of American health care is about $4000 (it's indirect, it comes out of your income usually, but for those who aren't provided health care by their provider, this comes out of their pocket) The cost of health insurance is rising 5x faster than inflation.

The government, with its extra bureucracy and lack of profit incentives, will make medicine cost a great deal more than before. Why in the world would the government make it cost less? You trust government WAY too much. That is naive.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

3. Poorer quality. For some reason the extreme right keeps saying that doctors aren't as careful because their money comes from the government. I don't even understand their logic for this. Doctors get paid for their patients. Patients are free to switch doctors at any time if they do a poor job (unlike some HMOs.) And hospitals are free to fire doctors at any time if they do a poor job. Perhaps someone would like to explain the right wing's logic here?

Yeah, every person who disagrees with you on anything political is "extreme right". You know I am, don't you?

The poorer quality would come from government and its pathetic ways. Financial greed makes things happen while government power just makes politicians want to look and sound pretty.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

4. Longer wait. Everyone always cites England's waiting for surgery as a downside of socialized medicine. That's english law, it has nothing to do with socialized medicine, and it's for non-emergency surgery only. Most countries will do surgery within a week or two, just like the united states.

Canada has the same problem. When the masses have anything free, they will abuse it.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

5. Less medical advances. I also don't understand this one. Insurance companies don't fund research centres, the government and universities do. The funding for this type of research is exactly the same in capitalized and socialized medical systems

No, we lead medical technology. The reason for that is capitalism.

When the government pays for health care, they get the idea that they can control it because they are paying for it. Then health care turns into what is like an American public school. Think about that one when you are trying to go to sleep tonight.

Also, if you give the government an inch, they will go a mile. Don't think the light socialism you preach is what would remain the reality. Politicians LOVE power. It is what gets them into politics.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

6. It'll lead to socialism. I never heard this one until UM and I debated about this during the last election. We already have socialized schools, police, fire departments, and a few other public services. Those didn't lead to socialism, providing health care won't either. Saying this is stupid.

No, you're stupid. Look at what you just did. You just used present socialism to argue for future socialism. What was my argument? That people will take present socialism to argue for future socialism. What a crazy idea. It's not like you just did it or anything. By the way, how is our socialized school system working these days? Do you really want to do THAT to our health care system? What a horrifying nightmare that would be.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

7. Higher prescription costs. The people that say this has never looked at anything other than Fox News. Prescriptions are up to 100x more expensive in the United States than socialized medicine countries because they can jack the prices because insurance companies will pay for them

I don't know about that one, but I will say that since the government flips the bill, they will decide what is available for prescription. In England and Canada, some very effective drugs are completely unavailable to EVERYBODY because THE GOVERNMENT thinks they cost too much. That's freedom for you.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

8. Unnecessary visits. While it's true that people will get medical care for more things because it's free, they are treated in order of severity, not first come first serve. Going to the hospital for a migraine might make someone wait a while if there are other people there.

It doesn't matter. The resources and availability will get used up by abusers, and that is huge.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Any other right-wing propaganda arguments that people would like to throw at me?

Sure. Legalize all drugs, legalize gay marriage, legalize prostitution, allow American flag desecration, and keep religion from ever being a government function. How right wing am I?

The fact remains that the buck can only be passed so far before it comes back to the federal government. If the private sector were doing its job, we wouldn't be having this debate.

The Obama plan is far too little, too late. It grafts an extra insurance company onto the existing abominations. Fortunately, I think debate over this plan is polarizing Americans, and driving more into the camp of genuine Socialized medicine, a single payer plan with a single, justice-bound source for regress of grievance. An America in which citizens seek out help for injury and illness as a matter of course rather than a last resort strikes me as a better America, in direct opposition to the nation in which my family has lived, with our heritage from this land's first conquered peoples. I understand that some see such a nation as the removal of a physical advantage over those they have dominated in the past.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The "only" reason? Come on, Ninja. Is that really the best you can do? The other reasons are out there. Do some research.

I know it wasn't the only reason, but it's like the war in Iraq. There were lots of little reasons, but one big one and that one happened to be personal.

We have the highest salaries... now. We are not under a socialist system yet. Go figure. When the salaries go down, people of lower potential will become doctors and the people of higher potential will find other fields. Think about it. When the government controls, the government decides.

Doctors don't have the same percentages as they do in other countries for general practice doctors. For specialists, The Netherlands and the Australian doctors have by far the largest salaries. Those two happen to be the most socialized.

The government, with its extra bureucracy and lack of profit incentives, will make medicine cost a great deal more than before. Why in the world would the government make it cost less? You trust government WAY too much. That is naive.

Is that why we pay so much for our Fire Department, Police Protection, and School Teachers? I guess you're right, I wasn't thinking of the little girl who had to pay six hundred dollars for the fire department to get her kitty out of a tree.

The poorer quality would come from government and its pathetic ways. Financial greed makes things happen while government power just makes politicians want to look and sound pretty.

What makes American politicians different than British, Canadian, Austrialian, Dutch... politicians? They have just as good quality as the United States.

Canada has the same problem. When the masses have anything free, they will abuse it.

Where did you get this information? I've gotten health care in Canada for a minor problem, was in and out in 15 minutes. My step-grandmother had major surgery in Canada and waited about a week.

No, we lead medical technology. The reason for that is capitalism.

The money for those breakthroughs come from the government and universities. How exactly does capitalism play a factor here, when the money already comes from the government? I still don't understand.

When the government pays for health care, they get the idea that they can control it because they are paying for it. Then health care turns into what is like an American public school. Think about that one when you are trying to go to sleep tonight.

It's not an automated thing, it has to be upkept. The reasons the schools fail is because they aren't... didn't you support the No Child Left Behind act? Still, I don't like when people make claims that the numbers don't back up. Other countries have their health care systems working fine.

Also, if you give the government an inch, they will go a mile. Don't think the light socialism you preach is what would remain the reality. Politicians LOVE power. It is what gets them into politics.

Aren't you the one who supported the undermining of the constitution under the Bush administration? Again, this full-fledged socialism that you're afraid of never took hold under other countries, even when there was more pressure to do so from the Soviet Union.

No, you're stupid. Look at what you just did. You just used present socialism to argue for future socialism. What was my argument? That people will take present socialism to argue for future socialism. What a crazy idea. It's not like you just did it or anything. By the way, how is our socialized school system working these days? Do you really want to do THAT to our health care system? What a horrifying nightmare that would be.

No, I want the Canadian Health Care System to be our Health Care System. I moved about six months ago, I'm too far from Canada to drive up there if I need medical attention.

I don't know about that one, but I will say that since the government flips the bill, they will decide what is available for prescription. In England and Canada, some very effective drugs are completely unavailable to EVERYBODY because THE GOVERNMENT thinks they cost too much. That's freedom for you.

Because of our capitalist system, marijuana, a useful drug for recovery from ocular surgery is unavailable because the logging industry is concerned that it will replace them as the dominate means of making paper. Name one of those drugs please, and show that there aren't better alternatives, not just that it's expensive.

Sure. Legalize all drugs, legalize gay marriage, legalize prostitution, allow American flag desecration, and keep religion from ever being a government function. How right wing am I?

Supporting big government, big military, no gun control, ignoring climate change, are much bigger issues than those that you mentioned. On a scale of 1 to 10, ten being Dick Cheney and one being Teddy Kennedy, you're about a 9. I'm about a 2, but at least I don't deny that.

Of the people, by the people, for the people... The right wing seems to have left something out. Was the enormous wiretapping and unlimited jailtime of Americas under the Bush administration for the people? Come to think of it "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free has kind of lost it's meaning among some right wingers too.