Why not work with the subconscious?

I see a prevalent mindset among a lot of lucid dreamers, and really, a lot of people working to change the way they think for any reason. The mindset I'm seeing, for the most part, is that the subconscious is something that is very creative, very intuitive, but at the same time tends to get in your way. Many induction techniques I see involve what people call "tricking" the subconscious, so that, for example, you stay awake through the falling-asleep process. I see things like FILD and WILD viewed as pitting yourself against your subconscious. I've even seen people say that the lucid dream state itself puts you at odds with your subconscious, as if it doesn't "want" you to be lucid.

I understand that these things are difficult, and I know that many times your subconscious does get in the way, but I don't see why we can't work WITH our subconscious, rather than against it. If we can learn to "speak its language", to more effectively communicate, perhaps even negotiate, with it, would that not be easier that trying to work against it? I don't know how we'd actually go about doing that, but it's food for thought. I know that when I do get a lucid dream, trying to establish such a connection would be on my list of things to do. Anyway, I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on the matter. :)

i don't think i work against my subconscious... it often brings up really interesting things that i had no idea were there. if anything, its deeper elements are there to be explored in dreams.

in terms of induction, i guess you could say i actually reward my subconscious: i have a tendency to dream about water, so i reinforce this and am lucid more as my mind works with this theme.

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Originally Posted by Singularity125

If we can learn to "speak its language", to more effectively communicate, perhaps even negotiate, with it, would that not be easier that trying to work against it?

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Yes, I agree. The subconscious language is anything that is holistic, like emotions or symbols.

I made a thread about communication with the subconscious in BD.

http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=87216

Oh, that thread. It's funny, I'd actually found and read that thread last night. It's all very interesting food for thought, but I wasn't sure what I could add to the discussion. After all, I don't know anything about mandalas or sacred geometry. :P I liked the concept though, and it was interesting staring at your example mandala.

Hmm... You know, I've been reading up on a lot of varied belief systems lately, and not only are a lot of them backed by scientists, they all seem to share the view that everything is connected. Several of them go on to say that emotions are the universal language between the elements. But I think that's a topic for another thread. :)

Isn't WILD a sort of hypnosis? Which means precisely working with the subconscious mind. :uhm:

I believe it is a matter of different words people use to describe this state, due to the lack of our knowledge on psychology.

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Originally Posted by Singularity125

I know that when I do get a lucid dream, trying to establish such a connection would be on my list of things to do. Anyway, I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on the matter. :)

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When I prolong the lucidity in my dreams, trying to establish such a connection will be on the top of my list of things to do. :)

The most fundamental practices for lucid dreaming--building dream recall and recognizing dream signs--are all about getting to know your dream life, and hence your subconscious.

The subconscious is like a child. It wants what it wants and if it isn't interested it isn't interested. What I do is get it interested. Like a child. I tell it how fun it will be to lucid dream. I tell it that it can communicate better to me if we lucid dream. I tell it that I will listen to it and hear it. It IS like a child and so you are right, we shouldn't trick it, we shouldn't work against it.
After all, the subconscious is more powerful than the conscious. If the subconscious is not on board then it aint gonna happen. You can consciously promise not to get mad at your boss anymore but if your subconscious is still mad the next day you might throw your shoe at the boss. You are totally right, not only should we work with the subconscious, but we have no other choice.

In my opinion, the reason why the 'subconscious' is so at odds with lucid dreaming is because lucid dreaming is such an intrinsically rational approach to the irrational world of dreaming in which the subconscious is king (or queen). The subconscious is the embodiment of the stereotypically right brained aspects of the mind and therefore it is diametrically opposed to language in general. I don't think lucid dreaming should necessarily be a war against the subconscious, but I've learned that it can't be way to communicate with it either, because it doesn't communicate in any way that is recognizable to the rational conscious mind. What you really should be trying to do is embody it, as it is ultimately part of your mind itself.

Any communication you may percieve is a product of your 'left brain' consciousness trying to rationalize the passive irrational output of your subconscious. The rational stereotypically left brained conscious mind comprehends linear concepts like language and communication. The subconscious just is.

prrrrrreeeeettty sure this is not in the right section tralala

I think it's a good idea working with the subconscious. Problem is...the subconscious has a lot of fears rooted in it, and you have to have a clear mind to get through to the higher version and speak with it. Don't believe me? smoke weed and you will see the fears manifest..you have to bypass the fears to get through to the subconscious.....when you get pass the fears he/she will tell you what you need to do. It will tell you everything you need to hear.....

you'll know when the subconscious is speaking and not the chaotic logical mind ( fear ) speaking. You'll feel it.

We don't always have to follow our subconscious' will. That's why our conscious is there. The two should work together, but they do that by arguing at times too. Conflict is inevitable.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Problem is...the subconscious has a lot of fears rooted in it, and you have to have a clear mind to get through to the higher version and speak with it. Don't believe me? smoke weed and you will see the fears manifest..you have to bypass the fears to get through to the subconscious.....when you get pass the fears he/she will tell you what you need to do. It will tell you everything you need to hear.....

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Hardwired, you should try taking 500 mics of LSD or an 1/8 ounce of mushrooms or some DMT! Talk about working with the subconscious, makes pot look like gumdrops.

There is more than fear keeping the subconscious SUB, also ignorance and trance states.

I figure if weed takes you to the subconscious..

all you must do is act your true self while on weed, and constantly think about what you want to manifest.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

I figure if weed takes you to the subconscious..

all you must do is act your true self while on weed, and constantly think about what you want to manifest.

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weed actually thwarts your desires from manifesting.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

weed actually thwarts your desires from manifesting.

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how do you figure that?

How many stoned people do you see accomplishing anything?

dannon..do you know that there are doctors and lawyers who smoke weed?

Don't feed into the bullshit propaganda. Stoned people are not just a bunch of lazy potheads. Some ARE, and others are not. You can achieve whatever you want to achieve even if you smoke weed. You won't accomplish ANYTHING if you don't set your mind to it ( direct your attention to it ) though. That's goes for being sober also.

As far as weed thwarting your desires..i just had to laugh lol. That would be the case if you just have a bunch of logical, feared, rambling thoughts that go in a never ending circle every time you smoke.

But if you can successfully quell those thoughts, and replace them with "POSITIVE THOUGHTS"...well, it's a whole different ball game. Constant thoughts turn into beliefs.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

dannon..do you know that there are doctors and lawyers who smoke weed?

Don't feed into the bullshit propaganda. Stoned people are not just a bunch of lazy potheads.

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I wasn't altogether serious. I was kidding. But still, I think that there are better ways of working with your shadow.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I wasn't altogether serious. I was kidding.

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No you were not. You probably just get high and get too introverted, paranoid or whatever and eventually fall asleep. I used to be like that..I almost had a panic attack on weed. You just need to breathe.

Learning to be AWARE with weed is a beautiful thing. You say you practice spirituality. It's one of the best things you can accomplish.

There's nothing better than being high on good herb and being aware at the same time.

Riding in a car at dawn, window down, your favorite song playing, breeze in your face, relaxed...the sun is setting..the sky looks so....different. I don't The things you witness on weed..everything looks different..almost like your seeing it with a new set of eyes for the first time..

You forget about the past and the future, and your focused on the HERE and NOW.

Video games, are much much better when high. Like your playing it for the first time, you just sit and observe the map of the game...even though you've played the map countless times.

The state of awareness weed gives me is amazing. And I know for a fact that it turns your awareness in on your subconscious. That's what psychedelics do. You just drop the fear, stop being scared , breathe, and be aware.

The only thing I can say about the awareness from weed...is that the outside world seems....like a dream. I've never had a lucid dream yet, but this is the best explanation for it. Weed makes you "lucid" in the real world.

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Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

No you were not. You probably just get high and get too introverted, paranoid or whatever and eventually fall asleep. I used to be like that..I almost had a panic attack on weed. You just need to breathe.

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Yes I was! Don't make assumptions. I've been smoking weed since before you were born. I know what it is like to be high. I also know that for me, it is all pipe dreams. It is great to be high, enjoy it. i am not saying not to smoke it. I enjoy it periodically to play music still. It is great for making music. But you can get dependent on it so you will need it for spiritual insights and when you are not on it it suppresses your higher senses. I smoke it about twice a year now. Lucid dreaming is the only thing that got me to quit smoking. Maybe the reason that you havent had a lucid dream yet is because you smoke? Just a thought.

To summarize: I am not judging you or weed, I am only stating that there are better ways with dealing with your shadow that doesn't involve smoke clouding up your aura. Are you interested?

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nvm, i will make a topic on this in BD.