Thread: "Artist Society (Very Important!!)"

Sounds like some hardcore technophobe communist "I-don't-know-basic-economics" babble.

okay, this post confused me a little bit...I'm assuming you are rottingteeth?

I understand your argument. But I don't think your argument has anything to do with the original artists argument. The original artists argument isn't that it's wrong to HAVE money. No, that's not the argument. The argument is that we are a consumerism society.

We weren't always a consumerism society, and we weren't a consumerism society until after the world wars. The point is, before we were consumeriristic, we already had capitalism. We already had the american dream of owning a house, owning a car, and having luxury play money. The difference between capitalism and consumerism isn't the money, or how much money. No, the difference is HOW we spend the money.

Consumerism means that we actually WASTE our money on things we neither need nor truly desire, like a plastic utensil youre going to throw away after using it. You could just bring your own metal utensil and stop creating plastic garbage.

As for the art argument, I'm sorry, but I agree with the original artist. There is nothing worse then to create an art world where artists aren't even free to express themselves. Art is self expression. Right now there are thousands of artists who don't feel free to express themselves because they have to use their talent for someone else's vision - such as a production company.

While its great that these artsy jobs offer a stable income for artists, for many that's asking them to choose money or freedom to express. Why can't they have both? Because of these artsy jobs are extremely time consuming, easily 50 to 80 hours a week. Most of these artists come home simply too tired to work on their own expressions.

While the money is nice, not being able to express themselves can eat away at the artists happiness. And many artists leave these stable incomes to persue their own individual art careers.

There is a huge disconnect, even a leap of faith, of choosing the path to self express in art and make enough money to feed yourself. The problem is the art community at large needs a rehaul. Right now many Fine Art institutions would have you feel ashamed to even consider selling prints, because suddenly that means you're not a real artist anymore. When prints, and printed materials, such as books, make money. And not only do they make money, the artist does NOT have to sacrifice freedom of self expression.

The solution? The artist community at large needs to decide together that contemporary artists have a right to make money off of their artwork to feed themselves, so that they can continue making more artwork. The best medium to do this in my opinion is the book! With a book, you can easily photograph any kind of art you create, even an installation. Share it with the world in a printed medium, and make some extra money.

Why do we need a artist community to do this? Because the corporate world at large doesn't care to do it for us. Plus most artists don't have enough artwork to create a substantial book, so many will have to colloborate to create collections.

When the New Age community couldn't get their bizarre books published, they created their own publishing companies just for New Age! It turned out to be a huge sucess. Artists can come together and do the same.

Artists need to run their own galleries. As art historians and art critics who aren't themselves artists can be completely out of touch with the true contemporary art that is emerging in the world. Artist run galleries in my opinion always do better at displaying contemporary works.

They also create community and give cities a unique feel.

Artists need to publish their own magazines. And reap the profits of the magazines collectively.

Artists need to create publishing companies for artists. The book itself is a powerful art form.

Artists also need to create their own schools. What artist run schools that I know of are always super awesome. Teaching all sorts of things you just don't find at the regular Fine Art univeristy level.

Artists that are successful and do create companies, publications or institutions, need to always keep the door open for emerging artists. One of my favorite comic companies is Dark Horse Comics. One of the very few major comic companies that I know of that will always review submissions. This is so important! And it's important to keep these forms of art alive, thriving and dynamic. You need fresh artist blood to do this!

Artists have to support each other. Whether by networking, publishing, or galleries - they have to support each other. Artists do not get paid to support each other, they need to do it to reep the collective reward of a thriving art community that benefits all artists.

Originally Posted by juroara

Consumerism means that we actually WASTE our money on things we neither need nor truly desire, like a plastic utensil youre going to throw away after using it. You could just bring your own metal utensil and stop creating plastic garbage.

Consumerism creates jobs and raises the standard of living. That gives us the ability to give more charity to third world nations than otherwise. Let's not kill it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Consumerism creates jobs and raises the standard of living. That gives us the ability to give more charity to third world nations than otherwise. Let's not kill it.

no...that's capitalism! Capitalism is the american dream. Consumerism is the OVER CONSUMPTION of goods that has led us to the environmental crisis we are in. They are not one and the same.

Consumerism has NOT raised the standard of living. Since it became our way of being, americans became increasingly depressed, over weight, and cancer has increased. Not to mention consumerism is directly responsible for the destruction of supporting eco-systems, poisoning our waters and food.

While capitalism upholds reaching for your individual dreams (entrepernuership spirit!!) consumerism tells you you can satisfy depression by buying fast food, junk food, alcohol. Consumerism has you buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy buy to answer any of lifes problems. Capitalism is far more balanced and would have you actually spend and invest your money wisely because that leads to more financial sucess.

Watch the story of stuff to understand how consumerism is not exactly the same thing as capitalism.

http://storyofstuff.com/

PS. Consumerism will eventually go with the dinosaours because it is completely unsustainable. But privately owned profits will continue on for many more years to come.

no juroara I think you missed my points.

a. she is bitching about people who have money, as if she knows that she herself is immune to greed,

b. she seems to believe that a tiny art group could actually change the world. perhaps it could, but what I'm trying to say is, I think it's too late for that now. in order to make any significant changes, you'd need lots and lots of money that you'd...probably end up spending on yourself if you came into it.

Originally Posted by nerve

a. she is bitching about people who have money, as if she knows that she herself is immune to greed,

just another testament to reality being perception

Maybe the poster could not handle money better than the people she complains about, and maybe her art group would not save the world, but if everyone or even more people were concerned about how the money was spent and actively participated in the dream of making a better world, THERE REALLY COULD BE A BETTER WORLD.

It seems silly to me to complain about someone complaining about how corrupt the world is; complaints lead to small actions, small actions to big ones, and big actions to change. The world doesn't need some super billionaire suddenly unleashing all his money to change the world, (that would only get him/her shot by the corrupt powers that like things the way they are and cause chaos) it needs all of the billions of it's people to work in a million small ways for the greater good.

Well I think this artist's argument is right.

Indeed Nerve, you are a pessimist.
People create the society around them after their own desires and thoughts.
Everything that was manmade, was first thought of.

So if you're a pessimist, you will create life negatively.
And because so many people live in negativity, the world is becomming such a negative place.

If only there would be more people like that Utopian Artist you critisize so harshly, the world might be a much better place.

Um, the only thing I don't understand is why she's trying to create an artist community....
SHE'S POSTING, ON A FUCKING ARTIST COMMUNITY! lol (that's not anger, just pointing out the obvious lol)
I mean, what? What is she thinking?

That's like me posting a topic here saying "We should create a lucid dreaming forum"

It's just stupid

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

Maybe the poster could not handle money better than the people she complains about, and maybe her art group would not save the world, but if everyone or even more people were concerned about how the money was spent and actively participated in the dream of making a better world, THERE REALLY COULD BE A BETTER WORLD.

if everybody had a flower instead of a gun, there would be no wars :(

Originally Posted by nerve

if everybody had a flower instead of a gun, there would be no wars

No, we'd just stuff daisies down each others' throats instead of shooting one another. If you want to end war, you need to fix the reason people go to war.

I think a lot of what inspired the original writer was the same thing many people feel. A realization and disgust over the fact that someone can pick something up off the ground, turn around and demand that you give them your time and effort for it (which is what money is). Our way of life isn't defined by consumerism or capitalism, it is defined by our drive to snatch up all of something that used to be everyone's so that we can charge for it. You may be right in your response but it is very one dimensional and only gets at the issue from a single angle.

One thing that can be done to keep people from selling water is stop buying water. Apply this mentality across the board and changes will come. Markets are about supply and demand and we are all to blame.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I think a lot of what inspired the original writer was the same thing many people feel. A realization and disgust over the fact that someone can pick something up off the ground, turn around and demand that you give them your time and effort for it (which is what money is).

People would only give their "time and effort" [money] for it if they wanted it...

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

it is defined by our drive to snatch up all of something that used to be everyone's so that we can charge for it.

How can something be owned by everyone? Do we all have some equal quota share of the world's resources? If so, how is that enforced? How do you get everyone in the world to agree with what to do with that resource?

Simple answer: You can't. And the reason people charge (aka use money, which is a medium of exchange) for it is because the world is far too large for people to simply barter (your cow for my goat) resources.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

People would only give their "time and effort" [money] for it if they wanted it...



How can something be owned by everyone? Do we all have some equal quota share of the world's resources? If so, how is that enforced? How do you get everyone in the world to agree with what to do with that resource?

Simple answer: You can't. And the reason people charge (aka use money, which is a medium of exchange) for it is because the world is far too large for people to simply barter (your cow for my goat) resources.

The way you ask the question defeats the answer. Nothing can be owned by everyone. The entire concept of ownership is what segregates mine from yours in the first place. If something falls from the sky or springs from the ground, the only people who are concerned about ownership are the people who would take it all so that you can't have any without giving your time and effort for it. When my body is thirsty, I drink. I don't worry about ownership of that water. When I say something is everyone's I mean it is everyone's to use; not own. The water I drink today will be drank by someone else later.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The way you ask the question defeats the answer. Nothing can be owned by everyone. The entire concept of ownership is what segregates mine from yours in the first place. If something falls from the sky or springs from the ground, the only people who are concerned about ownership are the people who would take it all so that you can't have any without giving your time and effort for it. When my body is thirsty, I drink. I don't worry about ownership of that water. When I say something is everyone's I mean it is everyone's to use; not own. The water I drink today will be drank by someone else later.

Well use usually coincides with ownership or loan.

Anyway, what are you getting at? A clarification would be appreciated. My brain is a bit on the fritz lol

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

People would only give their "time and effort" [money] for it if they wanted it...

Aha, not true. It's called advertising. When bottled water first came out it was (and still is btw) advertised as "spring water" or "glacier water" or whatever else which made it sounds exotic and better than shitty tap water.

This is why everyone started buying it.

The truth is, is that it's pure TAP WATER. Some people still don't know this and they have got in to the habit of buying it so even if they find out, they'll keep buying it anyway. Because of the placebo effect they will still think bottled water is better.

This creates a very serious problem because we are diverting water resources from where they are needed and also because the plastic bottles are just going to landfill. Whereas everybody could just carry a drink bottle around with them and fill it up at a tap.


Blueline - What he's getting at is that nobody own anything that comes from the Earth. It's just our culture that says we do.
Water is everywhere, nobody owns it. It is everybody's to take. You can't say to someone "that is my water, give it to me". The same you can't say "that is my dirt". Our culture just tells says that we can say that, but if you think about it like that ("that's my water"), it's absurd.

retarded american says "I own this tree! Even though I didn't plant this tree. Even though it's older than I am. I own this tree outside my window so I can cut it down as I like"

Originally Posted by tommo

Aha, not true. It's called advertising. When bottled water first came out it was (and still is btw) advertised as "spring water" or "glacier water" or whatever else which made it sounds exotic and better than shitty tap water.

This is why everyone started buying it.

The truth is, is that it's pure TAP WATER. Some people still don't know this and they have got in to the habit of buying it so even if they find out, they'll keep buying it anyway. Because of the placebo effect they will still think bottled water is better.

They still bought the water, did they not? Did they not make a conscious decision to buy this mystical "spring/glacier" water?

This creates a very serious problem because we are diverting water resources from where they are needed and also because the plastic bottles are just going to landfill. Whereas everybody could just carry a drink bottle around with them and fill it up at a tap.

So I suppose all of those companies reducing the amount of plastic they use in their bottles doesn't count at all. Truth is, not many want to carry around a plastic drink bottle all day.

Blueline - What he's getting at is that nobody own anything that comes from the Earth. It's just our culture that says we do.
Water is everywhere, nobody owns it. It is everybody's to take. You can't say to someone "that is my water, give it to me". The same you can't say "that is my dirt". Our culture just tells says that we can say that, but if you think about it like that ("that's my water"), it's absurd.

Someone has no concept of property rights. You can actually say "that is my dirt" or "that is my water" if it on your land.

But your idea that we have a right to OWN property is just that, an idea. There is no law in the universe that says that this property, is actually, yours, or anyone's for that matter.

The idea that we can OWN nature is part of our environmental problem. The reality is we can only use nature. You can't actually OWN water. That is an illusion.

I mean, if you did own water then you would have to own my urine as well! The cycles of nature transcend our silly ideas of ownership.

Ownership is the right to use the object that is owned.

Originally Posted by juroara

But your idea that we have a right to OWN property is just that, an idea. There is no law in the universe that says that this property, is actually, yours, or anyone's for that matter.

The idea that we can OWN nature is part of our environmental problem. The reality is we can only use nature. You can't actually OWN water. That is an illusion.

I mean, if you did own water then you would have to own my urine as well! The cycles of nature transcend our silly ideas of ownership.

So how do you propose the world will work? Who decides who gets to use what?

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

So how do you propose the world will work? Who decides who gets to use what?

Omg lol you're taking it way too far. We're just talking about resources and the FACT that nobody really own them. We don't have to go in to how a society would work if we lived by this way of thinking. But since you asked, and I don't want to de-rail this thread....

Watch the DVD "Future By Design" it is about how we would live in a world like that.

Originally Posted by tommo

Omg lol you're taking it way too far. We're just talking about resources and the FACT that nobody really own them. We don't have to go in to how a society would work if we lived by this way of thinking.

Am I taking it way too far? I'm just trying to understand your thinking.

Watch the DVD "Future By Design" it is about how we would live in a world like that.

Ah, technocratic communistic garbage. I see where you're coming from.

It's not garbage. It makes sense. And that has nothing to do with where I'm coming from either.

Have you seen the DVD?