Thread: Politics and Religion - should they mix?

Lost Soul, I apologize, I misunderstood you before. I don't think that President Bush has taken away your freedom of religion. He has not kept you from practicing it. As for the chaplains in the military, they don't have any chaplains for my religion either, I am Presbyterian. Do you know how many different religions there are in the world? You can't have a chaplain for every single one of them. Now I agree that religion should be kept out of politics but not out of the moral decisions that the president makes. That would be like asking him to completely forget about his religion. And I must disagree with you about Bush pushing one religion on everyone. This is simply not true.

Originally posted by Merckantium


We can see that for the first time in my lifetime there is actually a chance for the people of Iraq to be free citizens and practice free speech without the fear of being tortured to death. *

Until they end up in Guantanamo Bay...

Originally posted by Roller+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Roller)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Merckantium

We can see that for the first time in my lifetime there is actually a chance for the people of Iraq to be free citizens and practice free speech without the fear of being tortured to death.

Until they end up in Guantanamo Bay...[/b]

Well most likely if they are in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba then there has been some evidence that they have connections with terrorists or they have broken the law in some way. Of course mistakes may be made but with the way that insurgents (mostly from other countries) have been operating, I suppose its best to err on the side of discretion.

Well most likely if they are in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba then there has been some evidence that they have connections with terrorists or they have broken the law in some way. Of course mistakes may be made but with the way that insurgents (mostly from other countries) have been operating, I suppose its best to err on the side of discretion.[/b]

Maybe they have been convicted of this, but they still have human rights. Please tell me why if Bush is all for freedom and democracy does he allow people to be detained without charge in a prison that does not meet basic human rights, in a place that is not even protected by America's constitution?

Pope John Paul II opposed the war in Iraq, and let people know this. I only know of one Christian Church that supported the war in Iraq (although I cannot recall the name, sorry), so please tell me how Bush is being a good Christian.

Yes, religion has a place in today's society. Yes, (most) religions seek to uphold moral and ethical values, but religion should never EVER have a hand in politics. I have nothing against Bush being Christian, but I do have something against him openly publicising his faith in the media, and then doing the exact opposite of what he preaches.

Bush is the leader of a democracy, and therefore he should never let his own faith govern the politics or agenda of a country that is home to hundereds and hundereds of different religions.

In the news lateley I have heard reports of interrogators in Guantanamo desecrating the Quran, now that hardly sounds like an open and accepting view of other religions, does it?

Originally posted by irishcream
people are asking whether religion and politics should mix, but does anyone else think that they are a little intertwined?
what is politics but laws and statutes that the country tries to live by, set in place by a higher order.
To me, it seems that religion is no different.
Laws and rules, all set by someone none of us have ever seen.
Okay, so you see tony blair on the telly, but how many of us have actually met him face to face?
How many of us has he given his time to, to actually listen to what we really want?
I think it's the same with religion.
the laws are there, but at the end of the day you have to make the decisions that sit best with your conscience.
I think religion is political, in that you have people of different faiths, believing in different things, just as you have different political parties.

Just a thought.

i agrrree they are similar but theres one major difference .... religion is chosen (wel in our countries) however politics is enofrorced.... and therefore it would be uinfair for a religion to have a direct influence in a democracy .....

just a thought

no they should not.If they do then if the leader has a biased opinion he may try to froce it on others.

This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen.
~George Carlin

However, I completely disagree with the motivation towards the invasion of Iraq. I believe that the current administration purposely misconstrued intelligence and rallied as much US support (82% Christian populace - http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html ) with his Christian rhetoric for a number of politically motivated goals towards Iraq.
I have extensively debated the reasons why the Bush administration has gone to war with Iraq on other debate forums...and if you believe the sole and/or main purpose was to liberate the Iraqi people then you are tragically naive. [/b]

are you even an american i dont recognize the flag on your profile?? if you arent even an american why does your opinion even matter?

lol @ conspiracy theories about the iraq war.......my leatherneck brothers protect your right to say such nonsense, i guess we need quack conspiracy theorists as well. if you arent serving to defend this nation in iraq then you have NO OPINION and have the right to do nothing but listen.

Maybe they have been convicted of this, but they still have human rights. Please tell me why if Bush is all for freedom and democracy does he allow people to be detained without charge in a prison that does not meet basic human rights, in a place that is not even protected by America's constitution? [/b]

no, they have no rights they are not american citizens they are prisoners of war. we are in a new paradigm right now. the old paradigm for security doesnt work anymore and its neccessary to actually get your hands dirty now....you know something europeans dont understand?

Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog
its neccessary to actually get your hands dirty now....you know something europeans dont understand?

You're kidding me... you can't honestly be suggesting that Europe doesn't understand war???

Now ok, I realise that this is done to provoke, and no matter what I say you will refuse to intelligently debate a point, but this really offends me. A lot.

I don't want an off-topic heated debate- if you want one of them go to the philosophy forum, and if you can't talk intelligently and open-mindedly about the topic of this thread then don't post here, you'll be doing the rest of us a favour.

Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog

However, I completely disagree with the motivation towards the invasion of Iraq. I believe that the current administration purposely misconstrued intelligence and rallied as much US support (82% Christian populace - http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html ) with his Christian rhetoric for a number of politically motivated goals towards Iraq. *
I have extensively debated the reasons why the Bush administration has gone to war with Iraq on other debate forums...and if you believe the sole and/or main purpose was to liberate the Iraqi people then you are tragically naive. *

are you even an american i dont recognize the flag on your profile?? if you arent even an american why does your opinion even matter?[/b]

Try rolling your mouse over the flag .gif and it will give you an idea of which country it represents.

lol @ conspiracy theories about the iraq war.......my leatherneck brothers protect your right to say such nonsense, i guess we need quack conspiracy theorists as well. if you arent serving to defend this nation in iraq then you have NO OPINION and have the right to do nothing but listen.[/b]

I've served 6 years in the US military and have been to the Middle East (during the first Gulf War) twice. My brother is a PJ (para-rescue) in the USAF and has completed a tour in Afghanistan and has just recently came back from his 2nd tour in Iraq. But hey we can just stand around and wave our dicks in the air all we like, but if your going to resurrect an old thread (such as this one) please be ready to offer something enlightening.

Originally posted by InTheMoment
This is a lttle prayer dedicated to the separation of church and state. I guess if they are going to force those kids to pray in schools they might as well have a nice prayer like this: Our Father who art in heaven, and to the republic for which it stands, thy kingdom come, one nation indivisible as in heaven, give us this day as we forgive those who so proudly we hail. Crown thy good into temptation but deliver us from the twilight's last gleaming. Amen and Awomen.
~George Carlin

Two thumbs WAY up on that one!

That is a good illustration of how a lot of Americans think. I am so tired of hearing all of this "This country was founded on Christianity" stuff. I think it is a disgrace to the founders of the United States to say things like that. First of all, Thomas Jefferson was an atheist. He was obsessed with separating church and state. Ben Franklin was a Deist. Some of the other writers of the Constitution were Deists. This country was founded on freedom of religion, not the imposition of Christianity or any other religion, but totally the opposite. The first settlers from England came here to escape having religion crammed down their throats by the government, and the Constitution's authors formed the government with a great deal of passionate support for that philosophy. Jeff Spicoli, the pot-head surfer in Fast Times at Ridgemont High who was played by Sean Penn (the role that made him famous), summed up the basis of the birth of the U.S. by saying, "So what Jefferson was saying was, 'Hey, we left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, then we'll just be bogus too." He was referring to King George III's religious impositions on England at the time. (Things have changed. England is awesome now.)

I think relgion should stay completely out of government. I don't even like having "In God we trust" on coins. What if Hindus were the majority here and coins said, "In the gods we trust"? What if it said "In the trees we trust"? What if Satan worshippers end up being the majority? It is unfair and a very dangerous precedent that opens up too big of a door to eventual theocracy, something we are pretty far from now, but something that should be taken very seriously.

As for the invasion of Iraq, I don't think religion has anything to do with it. If it does, it's not a but for factor. I am an atheist, and I was in favor of it for many reasons. The Hussein government did violate our 1991ceasefire on several terrorism threat counts, we did need to change our policies regarding enemy terrorist governments, and I will never oppose the liberation of a severely oppressed nation. My support has 0 to do with religion.

I've served 6 years in the US military and have been to the Middle East (during the first Gulf War) twice. My brother is a PJ (para-rescue) in the USAF and has completed a tour in Afghanistan and has just recently came back from his 2nd tour in Iraq. But hey we can just stand around and wave our dicks in the air all we like, but if your going to resurrect an old thread (such as this one) please be ready to offer something enlightening. [/b]

my hat is off to you brother....

You're kidding me... you can't honestly be suggesting that Europe doesn't understand war???

Now ok, I realise that this is done to provoke, and no matter what I say you will refuse to intelligently debate a point, but this really offends me. A lot.
[/b]

yes i can honestly suggest that..we can intelligently debate all you want, the euros would be speaking german right now if it wasnt for us. (shrug)...they cant even get a handle on a riot right now in paris.

Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog
yes i can honestly suggest that..we can intelligently debate all you want, the euros would be speaking german right now if it wasnt for us. (shrug)...they cant even get a handle on a riot right now in paris.

Yeah righto, there's nothing to stop you believing what you want so I won't bother arguing about it. I don't suppose you'd have any thoughts on the topic of the thread by any chance?

Does not the question hinge upon whether the Religion considered is True or not?

History shows that Civilizations rise upon Religion and Fall into Secularism. Yes, the forces of disintegration and dissolution of course advocate policies which cast confusion on all moral principles. It is difficult to enslave the masses to serve one's personal estate unless one can first relax the Religious Injunctions against such abuses.

Now, we need to correct certain misunderstandings, especially those which suppose that what George Bush follows is in any way a "Religion". Protestantism has nothing in common with Religion once one closely examines it. It does not believe in Morality or Righteousness but instead depends upon the Forgiveness of Sins. But what is Forgiveness of Sin except the explicit licence to sin? One might argue that Protestants nevertheless believe in a God, and that qualifies them to the appellation of being a Religion, but look closely -- they advocate the benefits of having Murdered the Messiah so that Sin would have free entrance into Heaven. This is not Belief in God so much as it is the Advocacy of the Death of God in Order to facilitate the Invasion of Heaven by the Forces of Evil. So how can any reasonable person suppose this the same as any of the Higher Moral Religions. Look at the Fruits of Protestantism -- Usury, Slave Trading, Rum Running, Child Exploitation, Opium Trading (as well as Wars to force China to accept their Drug Trade). All of these horrors festered forth only after Catholicism was overthrown and the Libertine Protestants were able to impose their Reign of Forgiveness from all Sins.

Ordinarily Protestants had been accustomed to reject the notion of Religious Influence in Government, because they feared that some Actual Religion would benefit from the influence and impinge upon the general licentiousness allowed by Protestant Nihilism. But now, the concern is that the Religious Right has been demagogue-ing the half educated trash of the American Bible Belt in order to gather up a Majority to support what on close examination is little short of being perfectly diabolical. These common people are told that they are supporting Religion and they believe it without checking whether the word is being used properly. Indeed, that has been what has occurred in this Post. The word "Religion" is used by these Brave New World Right Wing Fascists, and their Bluff is not called. A Religion needs to be Religious, no?

Protestants are more obsessed witih "morallity" than anybody else I know of, except Islamosfascists. I can't buy beer on Sundays in Rankin County or the suburb of Clinton, and the strip clubs are under a zoning ordinance to exist exclusively on two streets in the ghetto. I owe all of my thanks to Bible Belt Protestants, particularly the Southern Baptists. The Southern Baptists are a whole lot like Islamofascists. They bitch all day about how they want to impose "morality" on everybody else, but the bitching is done with very evil mouths.

Protestants in general, especially Southern Baptists, aren't very interested in forgiveness of sin. They will throw the term around all the time, but if you really talk to them, you can get their real attitude to show itself, which is, "I'm a Christian, so I can do whatever I want." Never an expression of sincere repentance! They will even get lap dances at the same damn strip clubs they are trying to close. Rankin County is a dry county (This is in terms of liquor, but beer is banned after 11 p.m. and on Sundays.), and the people who work at the Hinds Couny liquor stores near the county line swear that the very people who pushed to make Rankin dry will drive across the county line, buy liquor at their store, and then drive back to their homes in Rankin County. What is wrong with these people?!!!

Originally posted by Universal Mind
Protestants are more obsessed witih \"morallity\" than anybody else I know of, except Islamosfascists. I can't buy beer on Sundays in Rankin County or the suburb of Clinton, and the strip clubs are under a zoning ordinance to exist exclusively on two streets in the ghetto. I owe all of my thanks to Bible Belt Protestants, particularly the Southern Baptists. The Southern Baptists are a whole lot like Islamofascists. They bitch all day about how they want to impose \"morality\" on everybody else, but the bitching is done with very evil mouths.

Protestants in general, especially Southern Baptists, aren't very interested in forgiveness of sin. They will throw the term around all the time, but if you really talk to them, you can get their real attitude to show itself, which is, \"I'm a Christian, so I can do whatever I want.\" Never an expression of sincere repentance! They will even get lap dances at the same damn strip clubs they are trying to close. Rankin County is a dry county (This is in terms of liquor, but beer is banned after 11 p.m. and on Sundays.), and the people who work at the Hinds Couny liquor stores near the county line swear that the very people who pushed to make Rankin dry will drive across the county line, buy liquor at their store, and then drive back to their homes in Rankin County. What is wrong with these people?!!!

You are confusing a general prudishness with Morality. Drinking Regulations are not Morality. Sexual Regulations are not Morality. One needs only review what Protestants have no problem with -- Greed, Slave Owning, Exploitation, Usury. They have instituted a Moral Slight of hand where they have shifted their focus from True Morality over to inconsequentials.

Also, you need to dip just below the Surface and examine how the Doctrine of Salvation really Works in its World of Sway. Yes, while the Baptist Churches ostensibly preach against Sin, the constant underlying message which can hardly be ignored as it is repeated again and again and again, if that Once Saved, Always Saved and that Forgiveness is Unconditional in the Death of Christ. This is why the Sunday Morning Church Goer can spend the rest of his Week End in the Honky Tonks and use his Work Week to take jobs lying about Used Cars and charging strangers too much for them. Under and Beyond all the Pretty Sermonizing, the Real Message is that All Sin is Forgiven. Eventually these Believers cash that check and take advantage of it.

It is what Christ meant about the Antichrist coming as a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing. Do not be fooled by the Sheep's Clothing of Protestantism -- how they dress up in Moral Cloths and take on the Trappings of Religion. Their Practice is to Advocate the Continuation in Sin. Afterall, just look at the Doctrine of Original Sin. In many Protestant Denominations the Believer actually is required to Confess himself a Sinner before Salvation is allowed to him. In what other Religion must the Initiate promise to be a Sinner!? It is a clear instance of people actually swearing themselves to the Devil.

Besides, I think that the only reason that Paul preached against Drink and Prostitution was that he was jealous of the Money being spent for these other things, and felt that all such spending was better done by people putting their Surplus Cash in the Collection Plate. That is probably as deep as Protestant Morality runs.

Yeah righto, there's nothing to stop you believing what you want so I won't bother arguing about it. I don't suppose you'd have any thoughts on the topic of the thread by any chance? [/b]

nah not really.

Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog
na not really.

Well don't bother posting here then.