Thread: New Healthcare Bill Passed - Your thoughts?

I watched this thing get passed by both Senate and House. Jeez the republicans got so fired up I was waiting for a freakin' brawl.

I support this. If it means no one can be turned down, have their rates jacked up, or be dropped because they will hurt business. And... my dad has been threatned to be dropped by our insurance providers because he has become too much of a risk (he has mesothelioma, but luckily he has been recovering well).

I also feel like there are too many sheep out there being hearded by people like say, Glenn Beck. I don't mean to make attacks on anyone, but that dude is freagin rediculous. Plus, how people were throwing around the term "socialist" so much as a means of scaring people upsets me, especially if it's being used by those who already have government provided health-care (military, medicare, ect). People need to think a little more about what the terms actually mean. Do we really need to Capitalize... on health?

Jeez. I'm curious on your thought Jeff.

I voted for Obama so that I could have health care. The entire system as it is, is so messed up my own mother couldn't even find me an affordable health care package EVEN THOUGH THAT'S HER JOB! She's a health care agent (and suffering financially too)

I realize this package isn't perfect. But I honestly don't care. Something has to change. Something has to be done. It's called the Great American Experiment for a reason, we have to try our best. It's not going to be perfect, but sitting on our asses and accepting the status quo is the worst alternative ever. No offense, but I dont think the republicans understand what it means to be suffering financially. They just seem to toss around the word socialism and make everyone who is poor out to be a lazy slum who just wants the government to pay their way.

My friend went to graduate school and needed that socialist government money to feed himself. How was he lazy? He did exactly what we as a society said you're supposed to do. And it didn't work. He's job hunting, and it hasn't been easy.

And I don't think republicans get it.

Two, I'm glad this is over, for now. For now Obama can finally move on. Its time to fix the economy, its time to fix education. Too many of us bachelors and graduates are struggling, and are finding that are student loans are now eating us alive.

Arg! I just wrote a long post and it got lost in transit. I'll try to piece it back together;

What not many are talking about is the fact that the changes won't come into full effect until 2014, but they will start collecting the extra taxes in 2011. This seems to me like a desperate attempt to prop up the ruined economy for just a little while longer. Healthcare is the new economic bubble. If the government projections of cost end up being way lower than the reality (which is usually the case) then this bubble could potentially only have a few years of life in it, and since these things follow exponential scales, that means the next bubble will be lucky to last months, if we even survive as a nation that long.

I'd also like to point out that something you said in the OP is not true, Jeff. Insurance companies can still jack up rates for people with existing conditions. The regulations for rates were dropped from the final bill. With a promise to "fix it later".

In fact, I just googled "fix it later" to find some smarmy picture to link and found that almost all of the top searches actually directly related to the bullshit claims of "fix it later" for the healthcare bill.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Healthcare is the new economic bubble.

So what will happen if this bubble bursts before we can do anything about it?

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive. The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust? The government has no right to force people to buy anything, and that makes the bill unconstitutional. I am pretty sure the Supreme Court will shoot down at least that much of it, but I think it was meant to be a temporary measure on the way to 100% socialist healthcare. I am baffled over what is happening to my country. Socialism doesn't work. It is a disaster. Look at history. Prohibition and socialism have both proven to be horrific policies for countries, yet nations keep practicing them. Why don't people learn from history? The worst of it keeps repeating itself.

I have full confidence in this thing, however I admit it's a little scary that we are doing this while we are in so much debt, but somehow it's suppose to reduce our deficit. I'm not sure how that's going to work exactly.

But I still have good feelings. I mean we have the sh_ttiest health-care system among other well-developed nations, we had to do something. Especially when it's costing lives.

Originally Posted by louie54

I have full confidence in this thing, however I admit it's a little scary that we are doing this while we are in so much debt, but somehow it's suppose to reduce our deficit by 100 Million dollars over the course of 10 years, then 1 Billion over the next 20. I'm not sure how that's going to work exactly.

It's not. They are totally fucking with you.

Originally Posted by louie54

Jeez. I'm curious on your thought Jeff.

Honestly? I'm not sure.. It's too early to tell.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Honestly? I'm not sure.. It's too early to tell.

Yeah, you maybe right. I just think we should at least give it a chance.

And I pulled out the deficit numbers in my last post because I keep getting different results on google, and I forgot what Obama said in his speech.

Originally Posted by Lawmakers before the law is passed

Just give it a chance.

Originally Posted by Citizens after the law is passed

Alright, we gave it chance and we don't like it.

Originally Posted by Lawmakers after the law is passed

You had your chance.

(hood)

Maybe you'll be surprised. I hope that I won't.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Negative - Within two years? EVERYONE will be required to buy health care insurance. No exceptions. If you do not, you will be issued rising fines until you do.

In other words people will be put into jail for failing to buy health insurance? If you are to poor to buy health insurance, you will be fined? How does any of this help people?

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Positive - No longer can Americans with pre-existing conditions be turned down or have their health insurance rates jacked up because of the kind of condition they have.

This isn't a positive, this is a negative. This isn't health insurance, its wealth redistribution. Insurance by defenition doesn't cover pre existing things.

Its like getting into a car accident and buying insurance afterwards? How does that make any damn sense? All this does is increase health insurance costs for everyone who legitimately need insurance.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Socialized medicine is a great way for a socialist administration to move the country toward full blown socialism, and socialism has always been a disaster. Get ready for long lines, an outrageous amount of government control, and life saving pills getting banned because the bill payer (the fucking government) deems them too expensive.

Socialism always a disaster? Even in general that's an arguable statement, but I believe it has been quite successful with regards to health care. Proof being nearly every developed country has some form of universal health care. Even the life expectancy of Cubans is higher than that of Americans for god's sake...

I've also never heard of a government denying a kind of treatment because it was too expensive either (which American health insurance companies do).

The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust?

This I find interesting. For a country that prides itself on democracy and representation, Americans are very untrusting of their government. And who can blame them, since their government tends to act against the best interest of its citizens quite often. But some are losing sight that they do not live in a sort of "elected dictatorship", and that the government is of the people, by the people, for the people, etc. This is a real problem, as the government should be a tool of the people, not a constant adversary/hinderance. The libertarian solution to this is to minimize the government as much as possible. To me that just dulls the tool, better to raise accountability, transparency and the "say-so" of the average citizen in political affairs.


Anyways back on topic. Although I agree that the US is an a desperate need of a health care system change, I do believe that the timing (tail end of a recession) is pretty bad and thus the whole process will be hindered. Even if the end product is less expensive than the current system, change will cost money.

What I think of this bill depends on what comes from it in reality and not theoretically.

Every other major country in the world already has "socialized medicine"--universal healthcare in some form or another.
See all the Blue and Green? Yeah.

And it's cheaper to boot:

We already pay about $1500 to the government per year, which in turn provides health care for the young, the old, and the needy. Then we pay on average about another 3,300 for our health insurance, if we have it.

In England, France and Germany, everyone pays about $1500 a year...and everybody in their country has complete health care.

Insurance companies have things like premiums, approvals, co-pay, and other things to prevent you from getting health care so they can make money. Think about it. The sicker you get, the more money they lose. They will do anything to get out of paying for your treatment--and you're paying them to do it.

Most insurance companies have a certain limit to what they will pay regardless of your need. So if you suddenly need a heart transplant, even if you have great insurance you could be out of luck, because the insurance company will only pay that first hundred grand or what have you. After that, you need to cough up hundreds of thousands of dollars on your own. Or go bankrupt. Just like an old car, you'll be declared too costly to fix and thrown into the garbage heap to die.

The United States has the most costly healthcare system in the world. But we aren't getting what we're paying for--out of all the civilized countries in the world, we rate among the lowest when it comes to quality health care. We rank low or last when it comes to efficiency, healthy lives, equity and cost, according to the Commonwealth Fund. We have a much higher death rate from treatable conditions--1800 per year--which is 50% more than Australia.

Insurance companies and the current half-hearted government system of paying for health care are both costing us all more money and providing us with a fraction of what we pay for, if that.

Consumer Reports did a survey and found that at least one in four people with health insurance are not completely covered.

They also cite record profits for the insurance companies. this is simply because they are in the business of making money--not giving people health care. The less health care the companies give, the more money they make. They do not make money from providing actual health care; they make money from selling the policies themselves. Our health care system is not centered around the demand and need for health care, nor the supply of the demand for health care from those who provide it. The system is centered around the insurance companies' need to sell policies, but provide as little coverage as possible.

Now, Universal health care is not the same as single payer health care. Many different countries have different kinds of systems of universal health care, all of which have their own individual ups and downs. The US is known to be innovative, and I believe that we could come up with a system of universal health care which can subvert most of the problems other countries may have by learning from their mistakes and their examples.

John Donne said "No man is an island." A society is all in the same ship--we sink or swim together fighting disease just as much as we do fighting an army. A lot of people think "someone else's health isn't my problem." Well, guess what--yes it IS your problem if they're living next door to you! If you don't believe me I can point to any number of zombie flicks that show how quickly and easily a disease can destroy an entire society. You can't fight epidemics by only treating those who have enough money to pay for it.

In regard to this bill, I was very disappointed that it does not give us a public option. I'm not sure if they kept it, but most of us should have our insurance subsidized by the government (in other words it'll be free for those of us who can't afford to buy insurance). I can live with that for now.

On a side note, government healthcare is better than the, uh, jackshit I've got right now.

Spoiler for Sources:

http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3809/4660/17632.aspx

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Cont...can-Healt.aspx

http://in.reuters.com/article/health...43203520080331

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...eng0709ins.htm

http://www.amsa.org/uhc/uhcres.cfm

To be honest, it really doesn't matter if health care is a good thing or a bad thing. Either way we can't affored it as a country. Any major program at this point in time is just digging us in deeper. We need to be cutting stuff, and a lot of it, if we want to survive as a country. You cant just keep spending forever. People in our government have gone insane. There is nothing left to spend, and its been gone for years. Why the hell are they increasing spending even more!

Hehe, exactly Naiya.

Well, it's a start I guess, but I would have wished that the US could just get a fully socialised healthcare system right away.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The government is getting way too powerful, and I don't understand why so many people trust government so much. What has government done to earn your trust?

Because the big corporations are that much more trustworthy?

To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson (British journalist):

"I tend to define an 'advanced state' as anywhere which has both free healthcare and nuclear missiles, and as this basically leaves France and the United Kingdom, that seems about right."

Join the club America.

I think the most redicolous thing I have read this month was about Sarah
Palin going over to Canada promoting the privatized health care and suggesting
that they switch to the US model.

The biggest problems with universal healthcare:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...ocialized.html

1. We are in a terrible recession and can't afford it. We are too close to the edge of collapse because of previous government spending gone mad.

2. When healthcare is free, people are free to go to the doctor whenever they have even the slightest whim to do it. That stagnates the system and makes the wait times much longer, and people die as a result.

3. When the government flips the bill on healthcare, they eventually get to make decisions about what drugs are too expensive to be legal. Sometimes those drugs are life savers.

4. It is unfair. Socialism is a big time system of theft. Period. Voluntary charity is fair. Socialism is not.

Spartiate... Yes, our government is supposed to be by the people, but sometimes the people in power cease to give a fuck what the majority wants. Sometimes that is good, and sometimes it is not.

Originally Posted by Xei

To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson (British journalist):

"I tend to define an 'advanced state' as anywhere which has both free healthcare and nuclear missiles, and as this basically leaves France and the United Kingdom, that seems about right."

Join the club America.

Yeah, the UK and France are so much more advanced.

Originally Posted by khh

Because the big corporations are that much more trustworthy?

Corporations have a problem with pissing off their customers. They don't want to make any less money than they can. Politicians are glad to piss off significant chunks of the voters as long as it's not too threatening of a percentage. See the diffference?

Originally Posted by dajo

I think the most redicolous thing I have read this month was about Sarah
Palin going over to Canada promoting the privatized health care and suggesting
that they switch to the US model.

Healthcare is cheaper in Canada but not as good. That is why so many Canadians come here for better service.

Yeah, the UK and France are so much more advanced.

Er yeah Jeremy Clarkson isn't the most serious person.

I'd say most Western European countries are more socially advanced though, personally.

Certainly the UK and France have greater life expectancies, which is weird considering how shitty socialised medicine is.

When healthcare is free, people are free to go to the doctor whenever they have even the slightest whim to do it.

Lol.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'd say most Western European countries are more socially advanced though, personally.

Whatever that means. Our people are wealthier on average.

Originally Posted by Xei

Certainly the UK and France have greater life expectancies, which is weird considering how shitty socialised medicine is.

I'm sure you are a good enough thinker to come up with the real reasons for the slight difference.