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    1. #1
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      German Victimization, WWII

      Alright. Every nation has their darkspots. Some have darker spots than others. But has anyone else here noticed the blatant lack of blame put on the country of Germany for WWII?

      The way the school system puts it, and the way alot of popular films/literature put it, and the way people talk about the holocaust, you would think that Deutschland was totally victimized. That Hitler seized power from an unwilling populace with a giant revolutionary army of evil skinheads overnight. Then the people were brainwashed into thinking that the Jews/Rom were being sent to nice minority communities with picket fences. And everyone in Germany thought that the Polish were actually glad they had the Nazis to protect them from the Russians. And Nazi soldiers were widely believed to be mostly pleasant guys, really, who were pretty nice to the Dutch and the POWs. And the communists at home just fell over dead in their arm chairs, dying from natural causes.

      This is only talking about here in the U.S. public school system, (though I would be interested to know if this is true for other places though I can't speak for anywhere else.) Now I bear the nation no ill will today, but it angers me that those who voted Hitler in and watched the deportation of minority groups and witnessed the stripping of freedoms and the massacre of communists and threw the fuels of racism into the fire and supported the nationalists even after the SA made themselves a househould name aren't presented negatively.

      (If you disagree with my view of WWII, please explain why. Or if you have had different experiences in school/talking about it with the general public. But I have gone to high schools all over the country and it seems fairly prevalent.)

      How are we supposed to learn from the holocaust when the blame is placed on just a few psychotics?

      No, that isn't a question that can facilitate discussion well... Yeah, here's one. Why are we teaching about the holocaust in a way to make the average German look innocent? I am at a total loss.
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    2. #2
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      I am not sure how much of Germany supported what Hitler did to the Jews. Hitler was worshipped like a messiah for a while. The Germans and Austrians (Germany annexed Austria without a fight. The Nazis convinced the Austrians that they could save their country.) thought he was just some charismatic genius with great economic plans that would save their countries. However, once he started revealing what he was really about, it did freak a ton of people out. Unfortunately, it was too late then. His government had too much power, and anybody who showed the slightest dissent got shipped off to be killed. The activities of the death camps did not become public knowledge until after the war. I am not sure what the people thought of the mass take over of countries or what the under the radar public reaction was to the attacks of Kristallnacht (the first big assault on a Jewish community by the Nazis). I just know that such activity scares a public into not wanting to say much about it.

      I got an email a few months ago that was supposed to be a letter written by an Austrian woman about her experience of living through the whole thing. I'll try to find it and post it.

      I am really curious to know what Germans who were alive then have to say about that stuff today. I talked to a German lady about 9 years ago, and her take on it was, "Oh, the people didn't know what was really happening. They didn't know." I am not sure how much of a role denial played in that comment.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 04-03-2010 at 12:00 AM.
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    3. #3
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Hitler was just one tiny human. What ever power he exerted on other human beings, was the power given to him by other human beings. I've always blamed the average citizen for giving him power . There have been all sorts of crazy leaders, even today. But they are all essentially powerless. To blame them entirely is missing the dynamics of people willingly give up their rights so someone else can decide their future.

      I can't imagine how the average citizen could have told themselves that what was going on was totally okay. There were way too many signs that something morally wrong was taking, or was about to take place. Victimhood means that you blame someone else for your mistakes. "It wasn't my fault! I didn't know better!" Well, it should be our responsibility to know better.

      And all of this brainwashing business, it's always bothered me. Not a single video of Hitler has brainwashed me. People choose to be sheep because it makes you feel this other person is responsible now. You don't have to worry, and if they are wrong, you're innocent! It wasn't your fault, because you didn't know better. Being sheep is away to avoid responsibility of your own actions. He told me so! That's what victimhood is!

    4. #4
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
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      my experience in HS was neither blaming the citizens nor saying they were innocent. It was discussed well how hitler came to power. He made people believe he could save their country with his economic plans, and to an extent he actually did do that. For the common citizen he actually did a lot of things right for the country.

      However, as UM said, I think he took too much power before people even knew it and by then it was too late to speak out lest you be killed.
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      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      Alright. Every nation has their darkspots. Some have darker spots than others. But has anyone else here noticed the blatant lack of blame put on the country of Germany for WWII?

      The way the school system puts it, and the way alot of popular films/literature put it, and the way people talk about the holocaust, you would think that Deutschland was totally victimized. That Hitler seized power from an unwilling populace with a giant revolutionary army of evil skinheads overnight. Then the people were brainwashed into thinking that the Jews/Rom were being sent to nice minority communities with picket fences. And everyone in Germany thought that the Polish were actually glad they had the Nazis to protect them from the Russians. And Nazi soldiers were widely believed to be mostly pleasant guys, really, who were pretty nice to the Dutch and the POWs. And the communists at home just fell over dead in their arm chairs, dying from natural causes.

      This is only talking about here in the U.S. public school system, (though I would be interested to know if this is true for other places though I can't speak for anywhere else.) Now I bear the nation no ill will today, but it angers me that those who voted Hitler in and watched the deportation of minority groups and witnessed the stripping of freedoms and the massacre of communists and threw the fuels of racism into the fire and supported the nationalists even after the SA made themselves a househould name aren't presented negatively.

      (If you disagree with my view of WWII, please explain why. Or if you have had different experiences in school/talking about it with the general public. But I have gone to high schools all over the country and it seems fairly prevalent.)

      How are we supposed to learn from the holocaust when the blame is placed on just a few psychotics?

      No, that isn't a question that can facilitate discussion well... Yeah, here's one. Why are we teaching about the holocaust in a way to make the average German look innocent? I am at a total loss.
      Really? You can't condemn a whole country for the actions of the minority or the majority. On top of that, most alive during that time period are probably dead by now.
      Last edited by ArcanumNoctis; 04-03-2010 at 06:46 AM.

    6. #6
      Member Laughing Man's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis View Post
      Really? You can't condemn a whole country for the actions of the minority or the majority. On top of that, most alive during that time period are probably dead by now.
      Plus its hard to condemn Germany for a series of crimes that America actually committed also. I would recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching which is written during WWII and chronicles the fascism that America lived under.
      'What is war?...In a short sentence it may be summed up to be the combination and concentration of all the horrors, atrocities, crimes, and sufferings of which human nature on this globe is capable' - John Bright

    7. #7
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
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      leave it to you to try and derail the point of a thread. We are talking about germany, if you want to talk about america, start a new thread.
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    8. #8
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tkdyo View Post
      leave it to you to try and derail the point of a thread. We are talking about germany, if you want to talk about america, start a new thread.
      Actually his post was on-topic. It was comparing both Germany and America.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    9. #9
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
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      Anti-semitism has always been prevalent in Germany and other European countries.

      I went to Germany this summer, and "dirty jew" is as common of an insult among young people as calling someone an idiot or moron is in the US. It's not like the whole hating Jews thing was anything new to Germany. A lot of the populace probably supported it.

    10. #10
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
      Plus its hard to condemn Germany for a series of crimes that America actually committed also. I would recommend John T. Flynn's As We Go Marching which is written during WWII and chronicles the fascism that America lived under.
      I'm sure the two are pretty close to equal.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by tkdyo View Post
      However, as UM said, I think he took too much power before people even knew it and by then it was too late to speak out lest you be killed.
      Yes, I actually did a little research into this for part of a history project. He lost the presidency but was chancellor (Germany had a chancellor and President), then practiaclly overnight he had taken total control by combining the offices of chancellor and president when the current president died (which he did via a law dated the day before the president's death, which was announced the day of).

    12. #12
      DreamSlinger The Cusp's Avatar
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      I recently watched a documentary called "Love, Hate, and Propaganda" (sorry can't a link to it online, but worth the time if you can find it), and the parallels between how Hitler kicked off the war on Poland and how the US kicked off it's war on terrorism/Iraq are down right disturbing.

      The flashpoint was when hitler blew one of his own radio towers and blamed it on Poland. 9/11 anyone?

    13. #13
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Cusp View Post
      I recently watched a documentary called "Love, Hate, and Propaganda" (sorry can't a link to it online, but worth the time if you can find it), and the parallels between how Hitler kicked off the war on Poland and how the US kicked off it's war on terrorism/Iraq are down right disturbing.

      The flashpoint was when hitler blew one of his own radio towers and blamed it on Poland. 9/11 anyone?
      It was the Martian vegetable critters who pulled 9/11 and blamed it on the Jews.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    14. #14
      DreamSlinger The Cusp's Avatar
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      Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting on this forum.

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      Quote Originally Posted by The Cusp View Post
      Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting on this forum.
      You stopped posting on the forum because some people don't agree with your perspective?

      No offense, but that is a little naive.

    16. #16
      peyton manning Caprisun's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by The Cusp View Post
      Thanks for reminding me why I stopped posting on this forum.
      9/11 wasn't the Martians, it was the British. Look it up. Seriously do some research.
      "Someday, I think you and I are going to have a serious disagreement." -- Hawkeye (Daniel Day-Lewis) Last of the Mohicans

    17. #17
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      Actually his post was on-topic. It was comparing both Germany and America.
      No...the op specifically asks about our teaching of what happened in germany. not comparing what happened at the time in both countries.
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    18. #18
      not so sure.. Achievements:
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grod View Post
      Anti-semitism has always been prevalent in Germany and other European countries.

      I went to Germany this summer, and "dirty jew" is as common of an insult among young people as calling someone an idiot or moron is in the US. It's not like the whole hating Jews thing was anything new to Germany. A lot of the populace probably supported it.
      what??

      where were you in germany? And seriously, what people did you hang out with?

      (edit: Antisemitism usually is an absolute no go here, your post really surprised me)

      and, btw,.. anti-semitism was prevalent in the US as well at the time.
      (I know I bring him up frequently, but) listen to Chomsky on that subject.
      Last edited by dajo; 04-04-2010 at 02:57 AM.

    19. #19
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by dajo View Post
      what??

      where were you in germany? And seriously, what people did you hang out with?

      (edit: Antisemitism usually is an absolute no go here, your post really surprised me)

      and, btw,.. anti-semitism was prevalent in the US as well at the time.
      (I know I bring him up frequently, but) listen to Chomsky on that subject.
      Munich, Berlin, all over really. It's not like I went to Hitler rallies, it's just something I noticed all the people my age were saying. I stayed with a bunch of different families.

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      I think too much blame is on Germany in WWII; and just about everything else. People always default to that, as if the US is a great beacon of greatness; the cowardly greatness that willingly obliterated an entire Japanese civilian population.....TWICE.

      The Nazis did some terrible things; so did just about everyone else.

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      not so sure.. Achievements:
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grod View Post
      Munich, Berlin, all over really. It's not like I went to Hitler rallies, it's just something I noticed all the people my age were saying. I stayed with a bunch of different families.
      That's awful. I haven't really encountered any of that in my 25 years here.
      Usually, people are very careful and any jewish slander is highly criticised,
      by media and society. I got to ask, how old are you, or were those people?

      Like I said, usually a no-fly zone.

      So what was said then? 'Dreckiger Jude'? I find it hard to believe.
      Those guys must be getting beaten up a lot. And I have heard things
      said in other countries or even on this board about national-socialism
      that I, as a german, would never have said.

      Edit: Must've been bad luck. Should've told them off, imo, I certainly would have.
      You can get expelled or fired for something like that easily.
      Last edited by dajo; 04-04-2010 at 02:35 PM.

    22. #22
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Never View Post
      I think too much blame is on Germany in WWII; and just about everything else. People always default to that, as if the US is a great beacon of greatness; the cowardly greatness that willingly obliterated an entire Japanese civilian population.....TWICE.

      The Nazis did some terrible things; so did just about everyone else.
      Entire Japanese civilian population? So there were no Japanese left but then they started growing on trees again and became the second wealthiest nation in the world? We were on the side that stopped the government of Germany from taking over Europe and stopped the government of Japan from taking over Asia after both had covered major ground in their conquests. What was the German government's excuse?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    23. #23
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Entire Japanese civilian population? So there were no Japanese left but then they started growing on trees again and became the second wealthiest nation in the world?
      He said "an entire Japanese civilian population," not "the entire Japanese civilian population.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
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      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

    24. #24
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BLUELINE976 View Post
      He said "an entire Japanese civilian population," not "the entire Japanese civilian population.
      That could mean the entire Japanese civilian population existing at a time. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Japanese city civilian populations.

      Those bombings ended the war, as they were meant to. They prevented years of continued fighting on the Japanese mainland. I don't think the Nazis were ever out to end the war until they had to surrender.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    25. #25
      Terminally Out of Phase Descensus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      That could mean the entire Japanese civilian population existing at a time. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Japanese city civilian populations.
      I'm almost certain he meant "an entire Japanese civilian population...TWICE" meaning two populations...two cities, not the entire population.

      Those bombings ended the war, as they were meant to. They prevented years of continued fighting on the Japanese mainland. I don't think the Nazis were ever out to end the war until they had to surrender.
      I see you're still a "the ends justify the means" kind of guy.
      The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. - Frédéric Bastiat
      I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves. - Christopher Hitchens
      Formerly known as BLUELINE976

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