Gay Marriage - why not?

**Marvo** · 04-19-2010 02:05 AM

So basically, there's a lot going on about gay marriage in the U.S. right now, namely Prop 8.

I personally don't know much about how propositions work and so on, seeing as I'm a dane, but basically Prop 8 outlawed gay marriage in California, about a year and a half ago. Prop 8 is now being challenged in court by two couples, and so far, things are looking pretty good.

A detailed explanation on the current Prop 8 case.

Not so long ago, it was also decided in Norway, that gay couples should be able to adopt children. This sparked a discussion in Denmark, which has finally lead to there being a vote about whether gay marriage in the prostestant church (Folkekirken) should be allowed. You can already establish a civil union, which gives all the same benefits.

Now, there has already been a thread on DV some years ago, where people generally agreed that gay marriage is pretty cool. Looking back at that thread though, there weren't really anybody opposing gay marriage, who dared voice their opinions, either out of fear that they would get torn apart, or simply because DreamViews is such a cool place without bigotry.

What I want out of this thread, is understanding of the opposition, the people who oppose gay marriage.
So skip the "sanctity of marriage" and "it's unnatural" bullshit. Give me a rational and clear reason.

I might aswell say right away, that Bible citations are absolutely pointless. There is an over abundance of rules in that book that you do not follow in the first place, so why exactly would you pick this exact one to enforce? Not to mention that any rule that says "Stop your fellow man from marrying his fellow man" contradicts base rules of Christianity.

**Odd_Nonposter** · 04-19-2010 02:41 AM

My opinion on social policies is this: as long as what you do does not affect the rights of others (environmental law excluded,) then you can do whatever the hell you damn well please. If you want a paper that says that you can legally poke a guy in the butt and receive marriage benefits, then that's fiiiiine by me. If you want to adopt a kid, then that's also fiiiiine by me. Just as long as you don't throw a gay pride parade every weekend, then I don't give two shits about it.

**dajo** · 04-19-2010 02:45 AM

I somehow doubt that you will get any rational and thought out arguments in here..

**Spartiate** · 04-19-2010 02:53 AM

I'm all for gay marriage in the eyes of the state, but religions (say the Protestant church in Denmark) should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to marry gays or not. The government should not (and can't?) force a priest/pastor/whatever to marry a gay couple, that's separation of church and state. They don't really need a logical reason, it is religion after all.

I'm not a religious person by the way.

**Marvo** · 04-19-2010 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm all for gay marriage in the eyes of the state, but religions (say the Protestant church in Denmark) should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to marry gays or not. The government should not (and can't?) force a priest/pastor/whatever to marry a gay couple, that's separation of church and state. They don't really need a logical reason, it is religion after all.

I'm not a religious person by the way.

They actually can. Denmark is not like the US.

**cygnus** · 04-19-2010 03:22 AM

well, you don't have to get married in a church, right?

**Spartiate** · 04-19-2010 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Marvo

They actually can. Denmark is not like the US.

I'm not American

Anyways, the state should not meddle with religion for the same reason that religion should not meddle with the state. If the church's own followers are practically revolting against the clergy so that gays can get married, maybe (haha) then the church would reconsider, although it is under no obligation to, as the church is not a democracy.

**Xaqaria** · 04-19-2010 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by dajo

I somehow doubt that you will get any rational and thought out arguments in here..

Thats because their just isn't any. There is no logical reason to oppose gay marriage. All of them are rationalized reasons; the real reason always boils down to "Aw, thats gross, they shouldn't be allowed to do that."

edit; oh, there is one other reason, "If I support this, people might figure out that I'm gay and that would be bad."

**Universal Mind** · 04-19-2010 05:17 AM

There is also the fact that Jesus used to beat the shit out of queers.

**Xaqaria** · 04-19-2010 05:25 AM

Don't take this as me not appreciating the joke, because I did; but he didn't! Even the religious reasons are just rationalizations! There is no part of the bible that a person can point to and say, "according to this, if we let you marry, then we will go to hell". There is no way someone can rationally believe that it is their concern whether gay people get married or not because of anything in the bible.

**Half/Dreaming** · 04-19-2010 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Don't take this as me not appreciating the joke, because I did; but he didn't! Even the religious reasons are just rationalizations! There is no part of the bible that a person can point to and say, "according to this, if we let you marry, then we will go to hell". There is no way someone can rationally believe that it is their concern whether gay people get married or not because of anything in the bible.

Not so much the "if we let you marry, then WE will go to hell". It's about the gay couple going to hell. Christians generally feel like it's their job to save the souls of everyone else. Even if that means limiting rights.

**Xaqaria** · 04-19-2010 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Not so much the "if we let you marry, then WE will go to hell". It's about the gay couple going to hell. Christians generally feel like it's their job to save the souls of everyone else. Even if that means limiting rights.

If that were true, then logically they would go about saving these people in the ways that their religion dictates; by loving their neighbor, turning the other cheek (so to speak

), 'judge not, lest you be judged' and all that. Not subjugation through the legal system. Sincere followers of Jesus would simply lead by example, as he did and taught to do.

**Naiya** · 04-19-2010 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

My opinion on social policies is this: as long as what you do does not affect the rights of others (environmental law excluded,) then you can do whatever the hell you damn well please. If you want a paper that says that you can legally poke a guy in the butt and receive marriage benefits, then that's fiiiiine by me. If you want to adopt a kid, then that's also fiiiiine by me. Just as long as you don't throw a gay pride parade every weekend, then I don't give two shits about it.

Actually, the pride parades are pretty awesome. It makes for incredible lulz and is a good excuse for everyone to get drunk, including the straights. Thus continuing the country's proud tradition of getting drunk and throwing parades. Then you have the added bonus of scaring the tourists:

"So, this is the Castro. It's really not as bad as people saOH MY GOD THAT GUY IS NAKED!"

I love Teh Gays. Who else is going to invite me to musicals and art shows?

/derail.

Agreed though, letting them marry doesn't hurt anyone and it makes them happy.

**Sandform** · 04-19-2010 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm not American

Anyways, the state should not meddle with religion for the same reason that religion should not meddle with the state. If the church's own followers are practically revolting against the clergy so that gays can get married, maybe (haha) then the church would reconsider, although it is under no obligation to, as the church is not a democracy.

I'm not sure I completely understand you. But I'll say this anyway; in the U.S. you can get married without ever talking to a priest or a church if you like. Atheists do it all the time. They go to a judge and say marry us, the judge says ok, and signs off on their certificate and says go make atheist babies. Also, churches already marry Gay people religiously. It is just a matter of what churches you go to.

I can't really give you a good reason against it Marvo. There is no argument against gay marriage that doesn't stem from "the bible says" or "gay people are different than I am and I don't like things that are different from me because I'm too small minded to see value in anything that doesn't conform to my tastes."

I like the "marriage is defined as" argument. Its hilarious in its ability to misunderstand the situation.

**Spartiate** · 04-19-2010 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Sandform

I'm not sure I completely understand you. But I'll say this anyway; in the U.S. you can get married without ever talking to a priest or a church if you like. Atheists do it all the time. They go to a judge and say marry us, the judge says ok, and signs off on their certificate and says go make atheist babies. Also, churches already marry Gay people religiously. It is just a matter of what churches you go to.

Read my first post.

**Sandform** · 04-19-2010 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Read my first post.

It was your first post that made me not sure that I understood you. But now I see that you were talking about Marvo's post that said the government could impose rules on religion.

**Marvo** · 04-19-2010 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Spartiate

I'm not American

Anyways, the state should not meddle with religion for the same reason that religion should not meddle with the state. If the church's own followers are practically revolting against the clergy so that gays can get married, maybe (haha) then the church would reconsider, although it is under no obligation to, as the church is not a democracy.

I guess my point is that religion and state is not seperate in Denmark, like it is in the US. Christianity is our national religion, for example.

**Half/Dreaming** · 04-19-2010 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If that were true, then logically they would go about saving these people in the ways that their religion dictates; by loving their neighbor, turning the other cheek (so to speak

), 'judge not, lest you be judged' and all that. Not subjugation through the legal system. Sincere followers of Jesus would simply lead by example, as he did and taught to do.

Well I think you know as well as I do that "sincere followers of Jesus" are far and few between. The "judgmental, ex-whore, you're-not-christian-so-you're-going-to-hell Christian" seems to be a whole lot more prevalent.

**ninja9578** · 04-19-2010 04:10 PM

But luckily, the judgmental asshole types that we throw eggs at are the loudest, but they aren't the majority. Reality / science has taken a pretty firm foothold in the US, at least in the civilized parts of it.

**Replicon** · 04-19-2010 05:58 PM

This pretty much sums it up:

**Xaqaria** · 04-19-2010 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Well I think you know as well as I do that "sincere followers of Jesus" are far and few between. The "judgmental, ex-whore, you're-not-christian-so-you're-going-to-hell Christian" seems to be a whole lot more prevalent.

Oh, I know that. My point is just that those people are not really concerned with saving the gays from their own sinful practice; that is just a rationalization for the more basic belief of "those effing queers are doing shit that is just gross. Someone should put a stop to this, what can we do?"

Originally Posted by ninja9578

But luckily, the judgmental asshole types that we throw eggs at are the loudest, but they aren't the majority. Reality / science has taken a pretty firm foothold in the US, at least in the civilized parts of it.

I'm going to find you a "Pimp for Science" bumper sticker.

**Dannon Oneironaut** · 04-20-2010 12:55 AM

Sometimes I think that nobody should be allowed to get married and that all sex is gross. But only sometimes. I still think that anybody should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others and that even though sex can be gross, it still is fun. And some people have fun in other ways than I do. And all forms of love should be equally legal. But that is an interesting point that religions should not be forced to perform ceremonies that they don't believe in.

**cygnus** · 04-20-2010 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by Replicon

This pretty much sums it up:

double thank you

"jesus didn't die on the cross so you could touch dicks in front of my cereal spoon!"

**Marvo** · 04-20-2010 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Sometimes I think that nobody should be allowed to get married and that all sex is gross. But only sometimes. I still think that anybody should be allowed to do what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others and that even though sex can be gross, it still is fun. And some people have fun in other ways than I do. And all forms of love should be equally legal. But that is an interesting point that religions should not be forced to perform ceremonies that they don't believe in.

It certainly is a valid point. The problem is when the government has some form of power over that church. Until that power is changed, things like what is going on in Denmark right now will happen.