Ask my opinion about vaccinations.

I got into an off-topic debate in another thread so I decided to continue the debate here.
IT is about the side-effects of vaccinations.

Spoiler for Here is just some information::

A 1992 study published in The American Journal of Epidemiology shows that children die at a rate 8 times greater than normal within three days after getting a DPT vaccination.

A preliminary study by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) found children who received the HiB vaccine ... were found to be 5 times more likely to contract the disease than children who had not received the vaccine.

In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

In 1977 Dr Jonas Salk (inventor of the Salk polio vaccine) testified with other scientists that 87% of the polio cases which occurred in the US since 1970 were the by-product of the polio vaccine.

The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the us today.

The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

The pro-vaccination side is all that is offered in the media, schools, doctor’s offices, PHS, and all government publications. This is a biased one-sided view of vaccinations based much on manufacturer’s studies and writings. The other side is rarely discussed and adverse events after vaccination are dismissed as a one-in-a-million chance which is a necessary risk we all have to take. The truth is that the risks are far greater than they are telling us, and there are no mandatory vaccines. Extreme pressures are placed on parents for not signing permission and accepting all responsibility for the toxic vaccines. Yet, doctors cannot guarantee the safety of vaccines or that they will even work. Many vaccinations fail to achieve their intended level of immunity and many cause horrible complications (including death) which one will have to suffer for the rest of their life. The trade-off is not wroth the risk. Mumps and measles are innocuous childhood diseases, but the vaccines have caused cancer, diabetes, brain damage, leukemia, autism, and even death (SIDS).

This information is to provide a balance against the pro-vaccination literature which is easily available. Anti-vaccination philosophies are sometimes difficult to find and anti-vaccinationists are called names in an attempt to discredit their reasoning. One must concede that both sides are biased in their views, however skewed. Truth is what is needed and that seems to be lacking in the pro-vaccination literature. If vaccines were good for us, there would be no reason for dishonesty and deceit. If vaccines were safe and effective there would be no issue here. Anti-vaccination literature only wants to support the truth and honestly tell the facts as they really are. Only by becoming educated in this very important issue can one make an informed decision. Yet, every day parents are asked to roll up Johnny’s sleeve with very little consideration as to what their permission is for. Few people realize that vaccines are grown on monkey kidneys, mice brains and chicken embryos. Few people realize the dire consequences of injecting foreign animal tissues (DNA/RNA) and the auto-immune reactions they can induce. Few people realize that vaccines are immune depressing and may cause cancers, leukemias and even have been linked to AIDS.

Only by keeping people in the dark (ignorant to the ill-effects of vaccinations) can vaccination profit-levels be kept high. Parents are purposefully not given the facts concerning vaccines, or they are given altered data and only the glossy side of the pro-vaccine issues. A one-sided view is delivered to parents who are not being educated or informed, but it favors vaccinations! Ignorance may be bliss, but not in vaccination issues, where death and severe damage may ensue. Many people do not even know (nor are they told) that vaccines are grown on animal organs and contain foreign DNA/RNA of those animals. Vaccinations are blood products and hazardous to our immune system. The medical literature is full of citations linking vaccines to many diseases, both causally (cause-associated) and temporally (time-associated). Yet, people erroneously assume that because vaccines are mandated by law that the government is verifying to their safety and effectiveness. Nothing can be further from the truth, since the government relies on the data from the manufacturers for the vaccine safety studies and coaxes to their research for vaccine effectiveness.

Few people realize that vaccines have been linked with brain damage, lowered IQ, ADD, learning disabilities, and autism. Yet, neurological disorders are among the most listed and studied vaccine complications in the medical literature. Unvaccinated children have a level of health that is unsurpassed by "normal" children, because they have not had their immune systems depressed or tampered with by vaccines. Unvaccinated children have higher IQs and less brain dysfunction than "normal" children. Unvaccinated children are truly healthy in every way possible. Few parents are told of the real consequences of vaccines, but only that they "prevent" disease. Yet, the truth is that vaccines cause more diseases than they "prevent". Vaccines are not safe and effective as we are led to believe. Their prevention of disease is more myth than reality as we will see how they manipulate the data and facts to make vaccines appear to "work". We will look at why vaccines are bad for our health and why .... Vaccines Prevent Health.

2) Vaccine Production, Allergies and Harmful Ingredients-

Everyday millions of children are lined up and injected with toxic putrid substances grown on animal organs, cancer cells, aborted fetuses and other toxic substances. Few people are questioning how those viruses were obtained and how they were grown in a laboratory. If one would ask these sensible questions, one would become very enlightened about vaccine production. I warn you now, discussing vaccine-production will turn your stomach. Vaccines are made from the most vilest and filthiest substances on the earth. Since the definition of abomination is "anything that is filthy", the term describes vaccinations adequately and truthfully. The vaccine "cauldron" is full of putrid junk from bodies exposed to disease and excreting morbid purulence. Science gathers this junk up in hopes of making vaccines for "preventing" disease; and we are being fooled while vaccinations cause increases in diseases.

First, pathogenic (disease-causing) viruses will not grow on healthy "soil" (the medium). If the environment is correct within our body, the virulent viruses and disease-causing germs will not grow. For example, hepatitis virus does not grow on a side-walk, nor in a healthy person. To make the vaccine, the manufacturers have to get the virus from somewhere, so they get them from persons with hepatitis. Makes sense. [The first hepatitis vaccines (of the 70s) were grown from the blood of the gay community, since they had high levels of hepatitis.] Today, they are much more "sophisticated", they just gather up bodily excrements from persons with hepatitis and culture the virus. Which excrements?

... Use your imagination: urine, blood, feces, pus and other excrements. In vaccine production anything goes. (How about cadaver organs and blood of persons who died of hepatitis?)

Once the virus is gathered, it must be grown on a toxic medium ... remember pathogens will not grow on healthy tissue. The medium used is generally animal organs and tissues combined with the proper culture medium and "nutrients". BHK (baby hamster kidney) cells, monkey kidneys, HeLa cells (cancer cells from Henrietta Lacks), aborted fetal tissues (used in the rubella vaccine called RA 27/3) and other animal organs are used in vaccine production. [Remember it is the foreign animal genetic materials which make vaccines so dangerous.] Once the virus has been grown, it is inactivated with formaldehyde (a potent carcinogen) or other agent. Other substances (adjuvants) may be added to the vaccines, like mercury (thiomersol), phenol, aluminum, antibiotics, and other ingredients which promote the vaccine’s effectiveness. All these substances are unnatural, synthetic, and immune suppressing, and some are even carcinogenic. The production of vaccine ‘lymph’ has been the main function of producing vaccines in the laboratory. Viruses don’t grow well in healthy individuals and toxic (un-healthy) cultures must be used. For example, mice bred to get cancer don’t get cancer unless they are fed a nutrient deficient diet. Now that means that we don’t have to get cancer either, as long as we eat a good nutritious diet. (See Psalms 139:14)

Therefore, first viruses are grown in toxic culture medium, which supports there activity and allows their grown and metabolism. Most pathogens live under anaerobic (toxic) conditions (absence of oxygen) and would die in the presence of oxygen. Therefore, as one builds health, develops good nutrition and exercise (breathing), more oxygen is delivered to the tissues and pathogens cannot grow there. This is what we mean when we say it is the "soil" which is important to our health. "The terrain is everything", Pasteur conceded on his death bed. Yet vaccine production includes many un-natural and toxic ingredients, which we would never knowingly put into our body. Naturopathic principles (and common sense) do not include the injection of viruses grown on toxic animal tissues.

Vaccinations are biological agents made from the filth of the earth, from diseased organs and sick animals and people. These toxins are injected in a person in order to increase their antibodies against that disease and produce immunity. Yet, scientist have very little understanding of what immunity is and what makes a strong immune system. Nutrition is key in any immune enhancing program, but they ignore nutrition (herbs/vitamins/foods) in favor of profitable injections. Vaccines do more to "sensitize" than to "immunize" for they contain many toxic ingredients which cause sensitizing reactions, like allergies and anaphylaxis. As you read these citations, think about the sensitizing effects of those toxic (foreign) substances present in vaccines. Mercury has been cited as causing auto-immune conditions and increases the ANA titre (used to diagnose Lupus). Allergy/anaphylaxis is merely severe sensitization to the materials present in vaccines. All vaccines depress the immune system and contain harmful and toxic ingredients which may cause allergic or sensitizing reactions. But how can depressing the immune system create immunity to disease? We are fooled if we think that it can. Vaccines Prevent Heath!

Allergies have been said to be related to the larger protein molecules circulating within our blood stream, and vaccinations place large (foreign) sized protein molecules with in the blood stream. During the process of digestion these protein molecules are broken down so that circulating immune complexes are not a problem. Leaky gut syndrome is linked to allergies because it allows the gut to pass large protein molecules into the blood stream. These are then filtered out by the lymph-nodes and may cause problems there such as lymphadenitis. Clogged lymphatics cannot support the cellular immune system composed of the white blood cells and lymph. Therefore, allergies compromise the immune system and reduce immunity. The lymph also carries nutrients to the tissues and is the transportation medium for fats in our body. Every cell needs high quality fats, which should come from unprocessed foods and natural sources.

Horowitz states, "Most parents who feed their children properly would not let them eat a food which contained any of the many ingredients of immunizations." Koren noted, "Some of the ingredients in childhood vaccines are: thimerosal (mercury disinfectant/preservative), aluminum (additive to promote antibody response), formaldehyde (disinfectant), ethylene glycol (antifreeze) phenol (disinfectant, dye) benzethonium chloride (antiseptic) and methylparaben (antifungal, preservative).

Where is this from? I can already tell from a glance that it seems to be a little outdated. Actually, very outdated. Also very one-sided. A truely unbiased source wouldn't go on a vendetta against vaccinations when they obviously do have benefits, something the author deliberately omitted (you can't tell us to find it for ourselves like the author does.) What you should present is an artile written by someone with the proper credentials and is willing to give credence to both sides of the issue, because it isn't nearly as one-sided as you have it written above. Something like a peer-reviewed journal article, rather than something that reads like a blog that could have been written by anyone on this site.

"Yet, scientist have very little understanding of what immunity is and what makes a strong immune system. Nutrition is key in any immune enhancing program, but they ignore nutrition (herbs/vitamins/foods) in favor of profitable injections."

He isn't a scientist, yet he knows better than scientists?

"But how can depressing the immune system create immunity to disease? We are fooled if we think that it can. Vaccines Prevent Heath!"

What would be the point if they didn't somehow prevent disease? Does he think we have been needlessly hindering our immune systems all of these years just to make life more interesting? Obviously there was a need for vaccinations and obviously they work to a certain extent.

Yes, the opinions are biased, but the statistics are not. That is what I was interested in the most sharing, were the statistics.
Let's see. It is by Dr. Mercola, whoever he is, and it is written in 2007.
I am looking for more statistical information right now, or after I eat dinner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Yes, the opinions are biased, but the statistics are not. That is what I was interested in the most sharing, were the statistics.
Let's see. It is by Dr. Mercola, whoever he is, and it is written in 2007.
I am looking for more statistical information right now, or after I eat dinner.

---

But the statistics are very outdated, especially for a scientific study. I just turned in a very large research report on airport security in America, and our professor would not allow us to use any sources from before 2008. The most recent study cited above is 1994, the oldest was 1977 I believe. Surely there are some more recent studies, or is the anti-vaccine information that scarce? If that is the case, then there is probably good reason.

If you are trying to fairly present the anti-vaccine viewpoint here, you need to do it objectively. Citing one random individuals rant isn't going to do you very much good. You need a completely objective case study. No sensational commentary, just the facts with no attachement to the outcome.

Here's what google tells me about Dr. Mercola. In his words, just to "balance the bias."

Quote:

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--"While certain advice, such as good diet and exercise, are not so criticized, he promotes a variety of scientifically unproven alternative medicine as replacements for the science-based pharmaceutical approaches he mostly discourages."

--"He claims unproven alternative treatments such as chelation therapy, acupuncture, auriculotherapy, cranial osteopathy, homeopathy, and laser-assisted detoxifying are frequently superior to conventional approaches however he has never directly advertised these services."

--"Mercola.com is a horrible chimera of tabloid journalism, late-night infomercials, and amateur pre-scientific medicine.... Unfortunately, it is also one of the more popular alternative medicine sites on the web and as such is uncommonly efficient at spreading misinformation."

--"Josephy Mercola is an osteopath whose main practice is the selling of a lifestyle that he characterizes as "natural." Much of his advice is in opposition to science-based medicine. His dietary advice conflicts with the advice of science-based organizations such as the American Diabetes Association and the American Heart Association. Mercola claims that diabetics should avoid all grains because they cause insulin resistance, and he recommends eating unprocessed saturated fats. In fact, he advises everybody to give up grains and eat foods that our pre-agricultural ancestors might have eaten, supplemented, naturally, by some of the many products he sells.

Mercola promotes his "alternatives" to a healthy diet and science-based medicine on his website, in his newsletter, and in books.

No one should fault Mercola for advocating eating a healthy diet and exercising, but his diet is questionable and his opposition to prescription drugs and surgery seems clearly unwarranted in light of the obvious benefits of both. His beliefs about the dangers of microwaved food (that it alters the structure of food and ruins its nutritional value) and his beliefs about EMFs in general are unfounded.* His promotion of Emotional Freedom Technique is based more on emotion than science.*"

--"Mercola is one of the leaders of the anti-vaccination movement (AVM). His website has links to many anti-vaccination articles and he has posted some articles himself that, in the words of one science-based physician, reveal "his exceptionally poor grasp of the immune system."* He also seems to have an exceptionally poor grasp of epidemiology and pharmacology. His errors are too many to list, but here are some of the false or misleading notions he promotes about vaccines.

Error 1. Too many vaccines are used too soon during infancy.

Error 2. Mercury and other "toxins" in vaccines are causing great harm.

Error 3. Since very few children die of the flu, they shouldn't be given the flu vaccine."

--"In May 2006, BusinessWeek published an editorial about Mercola's marketing strategies. Columnist David Gumpert opined: ' Mercola gives the lie to the notion that holistic practitioners tend to be so absorbed in treating patients that they aren't effective businesspeople. While Mercola on his site seeks to identify with this image by distinguishing himself from "all the greed-motivated hype out there in health-care land", he is a master promoter, using every trick of traditional and Internet direct marketing to grow his business. (...) He is selling health-care products and services, and is calling upon an unfortunate tradition made famous by the old-time snake oil salesmen of the 1800s"

--"A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial criticized Mercola's marketing practices as "relying on slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics."

---

He isn't a doctor, he is a business man with a doctorate. Hardly the type of source you want to be connected to. Im not trying to pick on you, the information just kept streaming in when I did a quick google search. There is a lot more criticism out there but I thought this was enough to at least call his legitimacy into question. Go to the "skeptic" link if you want to read more, they have quotes and information from legitimate scientific organizations that were provided in direct response to certain Mercola doctrines.

http://www.skepdic.com/mercola.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

OK, I hope this qualifies:

http://www.aapsonline.org/press/nr-03-02-2006.php

I will continue looking for more information.

Flu Shot Vaccine Ingredients?

Source: US Federal Center for Disease Control (PDF download 84K)
Influenza (Afluria)

Potassium Chloride, Potassium Phosphate, Sodium Phosphate, Sodium Taurodeoxychoalate.

Influenza (Fluarix)

Egg Albumin (Ovalbumin), Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin,
Gentamicin, Hydrocortisone, Octoxynol-10, á-Tocopheryl Hydrogen Succinate,
Polysorbate 80, Sodium Deoxycholate, Sodium Phosphate, Thimerosal*

Influenza (Flulaval)

Egg Albumin (Ovalbumin), Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sodium
Deoxycholate, Phosphate Buffers, includes Thimerosal

Influenza (Fluvirin)

Beta-Propiolactone , Egg Protein, Neomycin, Polymyxin B, Polyoxyethylene 9-
10 Nonyl Phenol (Triton N-101, Octoxynol 9), includes Thimerosal (multidose
containers), Thimerosal* (single-dose syringes)

Influenza (Fluzone)

Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Gelatin, Octoxinol-9 (Triton X-100),
includes Thimerosal (multidose containers)

Influenza (FluMist) Nasal Spray

Live H1N1 Virus, Chick Kidney Cells, Egg Protein, Gentamicin Sulfate, Monosodium Glutamate, Sucrose Phosphate Glutamate Buffer

* Where “thimerosal” is marked with an asterisk (*) it indicates that the product should be considered equivalent to thimerosal-free products. This vaccine may contain trace amounts (<0.3 mcg) of mercury left after post-production thimerosal removal, but these amounts have no biological effect. JAMA 1999;282(18) and JAMA 2000;283(16)

Adapted from Grabenstein JD. ImmunoFacts: Vaccines & Immunologic Drugs. St. Louis, MO: Wolters Kluwer Health Inc.; 2009 and individual products’ package inserts.

Spoiler for (2009)Study clearly demonstrates that aluminum found in vaccines can cause neurologic damage:

Written by Roman Bystrianyk
Monday, 21 September 2009 22:17
Randi Allaire was an Information Management Specialist in the military for almost four years. Three and one-half years were spent with the Air National Guard as Information Management, the previous five and half was with the Army Guard as a Flight Operations Specialist.
As part of the military's program to protect their troops from chemical and biological weapons, Randi was required to take the anthrax vaccine. On March 14, 1999 she was given her fourth anthrax vaccine. It was after that shot that she has suffered chronic fatigue, memory lapses, migraines, pain in the forearms, and other aches and pains. She received no help with her condition and only denials that the anthrax vaccine could cause any of these problems and that the cause of her problems was likely the "flu" or too much "stress". She was eventually thrown out of the military because she refused to take the fifth anthrax vaccine shot in fear for her own personal health.
Aluminum is the most commonly licensed adjuvant that is added to a large number of vaccines. An adjuvant is a substance added to a vaccine to amplify the immune response. Aluminum compounds, which were identified over 90 years ago as adjuvants, are considered by the pharmaceutical industry and various government agencies as safe. The FDA (Food and Drug Administration) has continued to approve the use of aluminum as an additive to vaccines for many years.
Despite these assurances that aluminum and all vaccine ingredients are safe, large numbers of military veterans who suffer from Gulf War Syndrome as well as parents of children who suffer from various neurologic conditions including Autism strongly believe that the vaccines were often at least in part a cause of their health problems
.
A recent study in the Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry examined the possible neurotoxicity of aluminum. This new work builds on a previous study where the researchers had injected mice with a combination of aluminum and squalene, another vaccine adjuvant.
In that study the investigators injected mice with adjuvants that mimicked the anthrax vaccine schedule set by the Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program. The investigators concluded in that study"our data suggest that the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant induces both behavioral and motor deficits and the loss of motor neurons and increased presence of astrocytes [astrocytes are cells that express inflammatory markers] in spinal cord and neuronal apoptosis [cell death] in the primary motor cortex."

When Professor Shaw was asked in an article by Pieta Wooley about this research Professor Shaw replied "No one in my lab wants to get vaccinated. This totally creeped us out. We weren't out there to poke holes in vaccines. But all of a sudden, oh my God-we've got neuron death!"

In this new study (also termed experiment 2), mice received 6 aluminum hydroxide injections over a 2 week period. These mice along with control mice were subjected to a more rigorous behavioral testing regime than the original experiment.

The investigators found "the multiple aluminum hydroxide injections of experiment 2 showed profound effects on motor and other behaviours... Multiple aluminum injections produced significant behavioural outcomes including changes in locomotion behavior, and induced memory deficits on water maze tasks."

I asked Professor Shaw "To your knowledge have there been any autopsies performed on service men and women that had GWS [Gulf War Syndrome] and have died to examine if they have a similar pattern of aluminum contamination that you discovered in your research?" He responded "that it has not been done to my knowledge." I also asked "Has there been an examination of people with autism to examine the obvious likely link between aluminum and mercury contamination and that condition?" Again he responded "Not to my knowledge."

It is important to note that while this and their previous study showed "significant behavioural and neuropathological outcomes with aluminum hydroxide" that these results were achieved under minimal conditions and that the effect of multiple other factors in real situation such as "stress, multiple vaccinations, and exposure to other toxins" would more than likely make the outcomes worse. "A recent study examining some of these factors in combination showed that stress, vaccination, and pyridostigmine bromide (Pyridostigmine bromide has been FDA approved for military use during combat situations as an agent to be given prior to exposure to the nerve agent Soman in order to increase survival), may synergistically act on multiple stress-activated kinases in the brain to induce neurologic impairment in GWS."

I asked Professor Shaw, "In your opinion why do various governmental agencies continue to insist that vaccines are safe when you clearly state in your research paper that ‘it also seems that there have been no rigorous animal studies of potential aluminum adjuvant toxicity. The absence of such studies is peculiar given the well known observation that aluminum in general can be neurotoxic under a number of conditions and adjuvants in particular have previously been implicated in neurological disease'?" Professor Shaw replied "A less charitable person than I would likely look at links between pharma and the regulatory agencies. I don't know of any safe adjuvants. Aluminum is the one considered ‘safe'."

The authors conclude, "Overall, the results reported here mirror previous work that has clearly demonstrated that aluminum, in both oral and injected forms, can be neurotoxic." I followed up with Professor Shaw "knowing what you know about aluminum from your research would you personally use a vaccine that contains aluminum?" He responded "No, and I don't."

The following vaccines (vaccine name/trade name, manufacturer, and information from the product insert) contain aluminum adjuvant:
Anthrax Vaccine Adsorbed/Biothrax, Emergent BioDefense Operations Lansing, Inc., "The final product is formulated to contain 1.2 mg/mL aluminum, added as aluminum hydroxide in 0.85% sodium chloride."

Diphtheria & Tetanus Toxoids Adsorbed, Sanofi Pasteur Inc, "Each 0.5 mL dose is formulated to contain 6.7 Lf of diphtheria toxoid, 5 Lf of tetanus toxoid, and not more than 0.17 mg of aluminum."
Diphtheria & Tetanus Toxoids & Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed/Tripedia, Sanofi Pasteur, Inc., "Each 0.5 mL dose also contains, by assay, not more than 0.170 mg of aluminum and not more than 100 μg (0.02%) of residual formaldehyde."
Diphtheria & Tetanus Toxoids & Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed/Infanrix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Each 0.5-mL dose contains 4.5 mg of NaCl and aluminum adjuvant (not more than 0.625 mg aluminum by assay). Each dose also contains ≤100 mcg of residual formaldehyde and ≤100 mcg of polysorbate 80 (Tween 80)."
Diphtheria & Tetanus Toxoids & Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed/DAPTACEL, Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd., "Other ingredients per 0.5 mL dose include 1.5 mg aluminum phosphate (0.33 mg of aluminum) as the adjuvant, ≤5 μg residual formaldehyde, <50 ng residual glutaraldehyde and 3.3 mg (0.6% v/v) 2-phenoxyethanol (not as a preservative)."
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Adsorbed, Hepatitis B (Recombinant) and Inactivated Poliovirus Vaccine Combined/Pediarix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Each 0.5-mL dose also contains 4.5 mg of NaCl and aluminum adjuvant (not more than 0.85 mg aluminum by assay). Each dose also contains ≤100 mcg of residual formaldehyde and ≤100 mcg of polysorbate 80 (Tween 80)."
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Adsorbed and Inactivated Poliovirus Vaccine/Kinrix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Each 0.5-mL dose contains 4.5 mg of NaCl and aluminum adjuvant (not more than 210 0.6 mg aluminum by assay). Each dose also contains ≤100 mcg of residual formaldehyde and 211 ≤100 mcg of polysorbate 80 (Tween 80)."
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Adsorbed, Inactivated Poliovirus and Haemophilus b Conjugate (Tetanus Toxoid Conjugate) Vaccine/Pentacel, Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd, "Other ingredients per 0.5 mL dose include 1.5 mg aluminum phosphate (0.33 mg aluminum) as the adjuvant, polysorbate 80 (approximately 10 ppm by calculation), ≤5 μg residual formaldehyde, <50 ng residual glutaraldehyde, ≤50 ng residual bovine serum albumin, 3.3 mg (0.6% v/v) 2-phenoxyethanol (not as a preservative) and <4 pg of neomycin and <4 pg polymyxin B sulfate. "
Haemophilus b Conjugate (Meningococcal Protein Conjugate) and Hepatitis B (Recombinant) Vaccine/Comvax, Merck & Co, Inc, "The individual PRP-OMPC and HBsAg adjuvanted bulks are combined to produce COMVAX. Each 0.5 mL dose of COMVAX is formulated to contain 7.5 mcg PRP conjugated to approximately 125 mcg OMPC, 5 mcg HBsAg, approximately 225 mcg aluminum as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, and 35 mcg sodium borate (decahydrate) as a pH stabilizer, in 0.9% sodium chloride. The vaccine contains not more than 0.0004% (w/v) residual formaldehyde."
Hepatitis A Vaccine, Inactivated/Havrix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Each 1-mL adult dose of vaccine consists of 1440 EL.U. of viral antigen, adsorbed on 0.5 mg of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide. Each 0.5-mL pediatric dose of vaccine consists of 720 EL.U. of viral antigen, adsorbed onto 0.25 mg of aluminum as aluminum hydroxide."
Hepatitis A Vaccine, Inactivated/VAQTA, Merck & Co, Inc, "Pediatric/Adolescent Formulation (12 Months Through 18 Years of Age): each 0.5 mL dose contains approximately 25U of hepatitis A virus antigen adsorbed onto approximately 0.225 mg of aluminum provided as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, and 35 mcg of sodium borate as a pH stabilizer, in 0.9% sodium chloride. Adult Formulation (19 Years of Age and Older): each 1 mL dose contains approximately 50U of hepatitis A virus antigen adsorbed onto approximately 0.45 mg of aluminum provided as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, and 70 mcg of sodium borate as a pH stabilizer, in 0.9% sodium chloride."
Hepatitis A Inactivated & Hepatitis B (Recombinant) Vaccine/Twinrix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "A 1.0-mL dose of vaccine contains 720 ELISA Units of inactivated hepatitis A virus and 20 mcg of recombinant HBsAg protein. One dose of vaccine also contains 0.45 mg of aluminum in the form of aluminum phosphate and aluminum hydroxide as adjuvants, amino acids, 5.0 mg 2-phenoxyethanol as a preservative, sodium chloride, phosphate buffer, polysorbate 20, Water for Injection, traces of formalin (not more than 0.1 mg), a trace amount of thimerosal (<1 mcg mercury) from the manufacturing process, and residual MRC-5 cellular proteins (not more than 2.5 mcg)."
Hepatitis B Vaccine (Recombinant)/Engerix-B, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Pediatric/Adolescent: Each 0.5-mL dose contains 10 mcg of hepatitis B surface antigen adsorbed on 0.25 mg aluminum as aluminum hydroxide. The pediatric formulation contains sodium chloride (9 mg/mL) and phosphate buffers (disodium phosphate dihydrate, 0.98 mg/mL; sodium dihydrogen phosphate dihydrate, 0.71 mg/mL). Adult: Each 1-mL adult dose contains 20 mcg of hepatitis B surface antigen adsorbed on 0.5 mg aluminum as aluminum hydroxide. The adult formulation contains sodium chloride (9 mg/mL) and phosphate buffers (disodium phosphate dihydrate, 0.98 mg/mL; sodium dihydrogen phosphate dihydrate, 0.71 mg/mL)."
Hepatitis B Vaccine (Recombinant)/Recombivax HB, Merck & Co, Inc, "All formulations contain approximately 0.5 mg of aluminum (provided as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate, previously referred to as aluminum hydroxide) per mL of vaccine. In each formulation, hepatitis B surface antigen is adsorbed onto approximately 0.5 mg of aluminum (provided as amorphous aluminum hydroxyphosphate sulfate) per mL of vaccine."
Human Papillomavirus Quadrivalent (Types 6, 11, 16, 18) Vaccine, Recombinant/Gardasil, Merck & Co, Inc, "Each 0.5-mL dose of the vaccine contains approximately 225 mcg of aluminum (as Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate adjuvant), 9.56 mg of sodium chloride, 0.78 mg of L-histidine, 50 mcg of polysorbate 80, 35 mcg of sodium borate, < 7 mcg yeast protein/dose, and water for injection. The product does not contain a preservative or antibiotics."
Japanese Encephalitis Vaccine, Inactivated, Adsorbed (Military & Commercial)/Ixiaro, Merck & Co, Inc, "Each dose of vaccine contains approximately 6 mcg of purified, inactivated JEV proteins and 250 mcg of aluminum hydroxide."
Pneumococcal 7-valent Conjugate Vaccine (Diphtheria CRM197 Protein)/Prevnar, Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, Inc, "Each 0.5 mL dose is formulated to contain: 2 μg of each saccharide for serotypes 4, 9V, 14, 18C, 19F, and 23F, and 4 μg of serotype 6B per dose (16 μg total saccharide); approximately 20 μg of CRM197 carrier protein; and 0.125 mg of aluminum per 0.5 mL dose as aluminum phosphate adjuvant."
Tetanus & Diphtheria Toxoids, Adsorbed for Adult Use, Massachusetts Public Health Biologic Lab, "Each 0.5 ml dose contains by calculation not more than 0.45 mg aluminum and less than 100 μg (0.02%) of residual formaldehyde. The aluminum phosphate functions as an adjuvant to increase the immunogenicity of the toxoids in primary immunization."
Tetanus & Diphtheria Toxoids Adsorbed for Adult Use/DECAVAC, Sanofi Pasteur, Inc, "Each 0.5 mL dose also contains a trace amount of thimerosal [mercury derivative, (≤0.3 μg mercury/dose) not as a preservative] from the manufacturing process, aluminum adjuvant (not more than 0.28 mg aluminum by assay), and not more than 100 μg (0.02%) of residual formaldehyde."
Tetanus Toxoid Adsorbed, Sanofi Pasteur, Inc, "Each 0.5 mL dose is formulated to contain 5 Lf (flocculation units) of tetanus toxoid and not more than 0.25 mg of aluminum. The residual formaldehyde content, by assay, is less than 0.02%."
Tetanus Toxoid, Reduced Diphtheria Toxoid and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine, Adsorbed/Adacel, Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd, "Other ingredients per dose include 1.5 mg aluminum phosphate (0.33 mg aluminum) as the 15 adjuvant, ≤5 μg residual formaldehyde, <50 ng residual glutaraldehyde and 3.3 mg (0.6% v/v) 16 2-phenoxyethanol (not as a preservative)."
Tetanus Toxoid, Reduced Diphtheria Toxoid and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine, Adsorbed/ Boostrix, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, "Each 0.5-mL dose also contains 4.5 mg of NaCl, aluminum adjuvant (not more than 0.39 mg aluminum by assay), ≤100 mcg of residual formaldehyde, and ≤100 mcg of polysorbate 80 (Tween 80)."
Source:
Aluminum hydroxide injections lead to motor deficits and motor neuron degeneration, Christopher A. Shaw, et al, Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, 2009 Aug 20. [Epub ahead of print]
Aluminum adjuvant linked to Gulf War illness induces motor neuron death in mice, M.S. Petrik, et al, Neuromolecular Medicine, 2007, Vol. 1, No. 9, pp. 83-100
Conversation with Professor Christopher Shaw. Christopher Shaw is Professor of Neurology and Neurogenetics at the Institute of Psychiatry, King's College London. He is also an Honorary Consultant Neurologist at King's College Hospital and Neurogeneticist at Guy's and St Thomas' Hospitals.

“There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway.”

- Dr. J. Anthony Morris (former Chief Vaccine Control Officer of FDA)

You keep editing your posts after I have already responded to them. That makes it confusing for me to accurately respond to them. My very first post in this thread was for citing actual objective scientific statistics, that Joseph Mercola uses them to promote his view is incidental.

Be that as it may, a lot of the criticism of him that you posted (I haven't read the links you provided yet, but I will) I don't find too objectionable. for instance, that he is good at marketing. So?
It says that he is an Osteopath, but you claim he is not a doctor. I agree with him that too many vaccines are used to early in infancy. What is the rush? Let the kid grow a little first. I agree that Mercury in vaccinations does do harm. And I agree that children should not get the flu shot, especially since it is very unlikely that they will die from the flu. Instead, people should help build the kids' immune systems by limiting sugar and processed food. I also believe that there are very effective alternative medicines that should be used first. I believe that allopathic medicine should be used as a last resort.

But over all, I see your point on the character of Joseph Mercola, and if I researched him more I probably wouldn't agree with him on everything. His website did feel a little sensational to me. But I am interested in the facts that he had that I posted. Let us debate on vaccinations, rather than the character of Dr. Mercola.

OK, I read your links. I was surprised to see that he actually does recommend vaccinations!

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Here's his proposed schedule for vaccinations:

No vaccinations until a child is two years old.
No vaccines that contain thimerosal (mercury).
No live virus vaccines (except for smallpox, should it recur).
These vaccines should be given one at a time, every six months, beginning at age 2:
A) Pertussis (acellular, not whole cell)
B) Diphtheria
C) Tetanus
D) Polio (the Salk vaccine, cultured in human cells)

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Seems less biased than I. Seems pretty rational.

As long as we're listing ingredients, I took the liberty of breaking down the excerpt from the OP into its basic ingredients.
--Cherry-picked studies that support an anti-vaccination point of view. (Studies and meta-analyses which directly contradict these are incredibly more numerous, so collecting this ingredient must truly have taken some time. For example, here's a survey of studies on the MMR-autism debacle, easily the most famous example of these allegations of vaccine harm. And I should add that the fact that "The Sabin oral polio vaccine (OPV) is the only known cause of polio in the US today" is a cause for celebration.)
--Some stuff about how vaccine opponents are marginalized by the dominant pro-vaccine conspiracy. (Astrologists are marginalized as well, what's your point?)
--Some stuff about how people make money from selling vaccines (and that they are therefore bad).
--A discussion of the distasteful ingredients of vaccines which is meant to appeal to peoples' sense of disgust and is completely devoid of scientific evidence.
--Overall, a bunch of dubious medical claims with 0 (zero) citations once we reach the body of the article. (Although interestingly there is a reference to the Bible.)

Look, the question of the safety of vaccination is an empirical one, and with very few exceptions the evidence supports the efficacy and safety of vaccination.

I'll conclude with a short list of common side effects of refusing to receive vaccinations:
--Dieing early of easily preventable diseases.

Ok, so you have educated me more on the debate of autism and vaccinations. I am uncertain about it now, there is conflicting evidence. There are two sides to the story. I will need some time to think about it.
Be that as it may, this is just a small part of the whole vaccination debate.
For example, I feel strongly against about how the Pharma lobbied to pass a law that now they can sell untested vaccinations. H1N1 was untested.
ANd everyone reacts to the OP I made, they ask for other evidence, I provide it, and everybody keeps responding to the first one. I took the advice and searched harder for more reputable and up to date studies in scientific journals and nobody responds to them, just to the one that is easiest to discredit. Is the point here to discredit me or find out the truth?
If you can show me I am wrong I will go get vaccinated for... I will get the flu shot if you can convince me. Well, no... I won't.
But I like the wikipedia link Dub provided. It was interesting because it showed how controversial the topic is.
But refute the other posts I made. Because I think those posts are convincing.

Those posts don't contain anything that I didn't already address. For the most part it's just a few more cherry-picked studies. (There is also some more of the "yucky ingredients game" and some more unsubstantiated medical claims, neither of which warrant a response beyond pointing out that they are utterly vacuous.) All you have to do is weigh those against the fraction of studies that I linked to and you have your refutation. And keep in mind that I found that list of studies in roughly the 30 seconds that it took me to find the most relevant Wikipedia article; there are a lot more where those came from. The medical evidence is pretty clear.

Just publishing the list of ingredients is not playing the "yucky ingredients game". In that case Twinkies are playing the "yucky ingredients game" by listing their ingredients on the package.

I will return soon. I would like to address the "cherry-picking" when I return.

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The pro-vaccination side is all that is offered in the media, schools, doctor’s offices, PHS, and all government publications. This is a biased one-sided view of vaccinations based much on manufacturer’s studies and writings.

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This just happens to be one-sided too…

Anyway, since when did most vaccines NOT work? Some deaseses I have been vaccinated against and not had:

Measles
Mumps
Rubella
Chichenpox

Need I continue?

As for the MMR and autism link, here is something the Natinol Autistic Socity (UK) says:

We recognise that the weight of epidemiological evidence indicates that there is no statistically significant link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Decoded, it means that they got some results from people who study epidemics (outbreaks of diseases) and the results say there is no link.

There is also the question of aluminum and neurological damage. The whole debate is not just reduced down to mercury=autism.
I guess I should have named the thread "Tell me about Vaccinations".

From the World Health Organization (WHO)

At present there is no evidence of a health risk from aluminium-containing vaccines or any justification for changing current vaccination practices.

Now throw me another 'toxin' in vaccines.

BTW how much research did you do? Try looking at the WHO or the NHS (UK) as they will probably your best bet. Wikipeida is probably the most two-sided but remember that anyone can edit it. Unless you actually LIKE believing false articles.

Formaldehyde?

Screw studies that could potentially be deliberately skewed due to money being involved. It is best to go by personal experience.

Lets see, I've personally seen about about fourteen people get the H1N1 vaccine at the same time. All of them had side-effects within four hours. A majority complained about bad headaches, so bad that some were considering going home to sleep and shake it off. One became rather ill a day or two after being vaccinated, which his face became flushed and he got very dizzy. The individual went home and didn't come back for few days. Additionally, I've talked with someone who said that there was a confirmed case of the H1N1 vaccine killing someone in Europe. This wasn't in the news media.

People seriously need to not be so naive. When it comes to money, it could very well mean the difference between life and death. Considering the way H1N1 is *supposedly* manufacturered is the same as the regular seasonal flu vaccine, put two and two together.

I wonder if there is a correlation between an increase in vaccinations and a reduction in intelligence. The study would be interesting because there is a severe lack of common sense among the masses.

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Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Screw studies that could potentially be deliberately skewed due to money being involved. It is best to go by personal experience.

Lets see, I've personally seen about about fourteen people get the H1N1 vaccine at the same time. All of them had side-effects within four hours. A majority complained about bad headaches, so bad that some were considering going home to sleep and shake it off. One became rather ill a day or two after being vaccinated, which his face became flushed and he got very dizzy. The individual went home and didn't come back for few days. Additionally, I've talked with someone who said that there was a confirmed case of the H1N1 vaccine killing someone in Europe. This wasn't in the news media.

People seriously need to not be so naive. When it comes to money, it could very well mean the difference between life and death. Considering the way H1N1 is *supposedly* manufacturered is the same as the regular seasonal flu vaccine, put two and two together.

I wonder if there is a correlation between an increase in vaccinations and a reduction in intelligence. The study would be interesting.

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I know quite a few people who got the H1N1 shot and none of them had anything but a sore arm :panic:.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I know quite a few people who got the H1N1 shot and none of them had anything but a sore arm :panic:.

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How many, what location, what age, and what month were they vaccinated? Nasal or needle?

The H1N1 was not tested before it was given out. The Pharma lobbied to pass that law right before the H1N1 hit Mexico. There are a few people living in Mexico on this forum, it would be cool to hear from them. I had friends living in Mexico at the time and they didn't see anything regarding the swine flu.

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Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

How many, what location, what age, and what month were they vaccinated? Nasal or needle?

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Maybe a dozen in the capital region of Canada between their 20s and elderly, around November-December and by needle.

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Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

Screw studies that could potentially be deliberately skewed due to money being involved. It is best to go by personal experience.
[...]
People seriously need to not be so naive. When it comes to money, it could very well mean the difference between life and death. Considering the way H1N1 is *supposedly* manufacturered is the same as the regular seasonal flu vaccine, put two and two together.

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Yes, Arcanum. It is best to ignore large-scale studies conducted by medical scientists, because obviously a casual observation of the 14 acquaintances that come most readily to mind is a much more reliable way to get to the bottom of serious empirical matters such as this. I guess I was too naive to realize it before. Maybe it was all the vaccines robbing me of my common sense. Thanks for opening my eyes... keep on fighting the good fight against Evil Science! :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

Maybe a dozen in the capital region of Canada between their 20s and elderly, around November-December and by needle.

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The people I saw were vaccinated with a batch of the vaccine that was most likely purchased prior to *testing*. Around fourteen people whose ages ranged between twenty to thirty five years old. They were vaccinated in South Dakota U.S., all between late October to early November.

FACT: How long was the vaccine testing period? About two weeks.

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Originally Posted by DuB

Yes, Arcanum. It is best to ignore large-scale studies conducted by medical scientists, because obviously a casual observation of the 14 acquaintances that come most readily to mind is a much more reliable way to get to the bottom of serious empirical matters such as this. I guess I was too naive to realize it before. Maybe it was all the vaccines robbing me of my common sense. Thanks for opening my eyes... keep on fighting the good fight against Evil Science! :thumbup:

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You are ridiculous, so is your sarcasm. Science isn't evil, nor is it at fault. You are wrong on so many levels, but I'm not even going to address how or why because it would derail this thread.

Anyhow, you don't think it would be interesting to know if vaccines reduced intelligence? You thought I was making a personal attack with this question, but it is indeed quite serious and valid.

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Originally Posted by ArcanumNoctis

You are ridiculous [...] You are wrong on so many levels, but I'm not even going to address how or why because it would derail this thread.

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That's interesting, because that's basically the exact same opinion that I had of your post. But you know what, I changed my mind: I'm now going to take the time to explain exactly why you're wrong.

First, you state that 14 people you know received the same batch of H1N1 vaccine, that "a majority" of them got headaches (God help them!), and that one of them got sick in some way or other a few days later. The implication here--what your "two and two" presumably add up to--is that the H1N1 vaccine is dangerous, ineffective, or both.

There are numerous problems with this line of reasoning. For starters, the very fact that all of these people were vaccinated from the same batch severely limits the conclusions you are warranted to draw about the H1N1 vaccine in general. Even if we view these as legitimate and serious negative side effects (which is questionable) the most reasonable thing to conclude would be that there was something about that particular batch of vaccine that caused the side effects. It doesn't tell us much at all about the safety or efficacy of the countless other batches of H1N1 vaccine out in the world. And about those side effects: are you suggesting that when "a majority" of the handful of people you know get bad headaches later in the same day that they received the vaccine, this constitutes some sort of serious negative side effect? How serious is it compared to getting the H1N1 virus? You also say that one of these people got sick a day or two later, but the symptoms you describe sound nothing like swine flu, and in any case you have absolutely no way of knowing whether the symptoms were caused in any way by the vaccine from days earlier.

Second, you say that you talked to someone who told you that a person in Europe died from receiving the vaccine. Despite the fact that this was not mentioned in any media outlet, you take this person's word on faith. I wish I could say I'm surprised that you are satisfied to leave it at that without requesting any sort of further evidence for this claim. Not surprisingly, I am not satisfied by this random person's word, so either present some sort of solid backing for the claim or put your stories right back in the rumor mill.

Next, you imply that because people will make money from selling the H1N1 vaccine, this automatically invalidates any scientific inquiry into the matter because the studies "could potentially be deliberately skewed." Where do I even start? Yes, they could be deliberately skewed; are you suggesting that they probably are deliberately skewed? That the authors of all of these studies just bend over and publish whatever the company who distributes the vaccine wants them to say? That most scientists are perfectly willing to fabricate data for money, with no regard for the consequences both in terms of public safety or their own professional careers? Get real! You say that you don't think science is evil or at fault, but if you truly believe these things then it's hard to see how that is the case. Have these things happened? Sure. Do they still happen? Sure. Is it the rule? No, thankfully it is very much the exception.

Honestly, this concern about the potential bias of scientific studies is positively amusing when you consider how inherently biased any alternative inquiry into the matter must necessarily be. In this case, the alternative is you recalling a story about a group of people who you know personally. They are from the same location, of a relatively narrow age range, received doses from the same batch of vaccine at the same time, and when "a majority" of them reported headaches--but none of them developed swine flu!--you want to conclude that the H1N1 vaccine is crap? Holy cow, and you're worried about the potential bias in large, randomized controlled trials?! This is not even to mention the obvious point that you have absolutely no idea how many people outside of your small group of acquaintances received the same vaccine and developed no side effects whatsoever, and you apparently have no interest in considering that information.

You know, maybe there really is something to this link between vaccination and poor common sense... you didn't happen to receive the vaccination in question, did you?

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Formaldehyde?

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The FDA says:

The average quantity of formaldehyde to which a young infant could be exposed to at one time through vaccines is very small and is considered to be safe.

Then it says that the amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is 600 times smaller than found to be safe in animals.

NEXT!

Btw, have you ever had smallpox? It was once a deadly infectious disease until Edward Jenner helped destroy it. And then SOME people joined him to defeat this beastie by having the jab.

Also, some people have stopped having their children have MMR. This has lead to a rise in measles…

To all antivaccine people, enjoy measles, even though it may kill or permantly damage you.

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Lets see, I've personally seen about about fourteen people get the H1N1 vaccine at the same time. All of them had side-effects within four hours. A majority complained about bad headaches, so bad that some were considering going home to sleep and shake it off. One became rather ill a day or two after being vaccinated, which his face became flushed and he got very dizzy. The individual went home and didn't come back for few days.

---

Feeling ill after a vaccine is a common side effect. They may get symptoms of flu, but not the full-blown flu. When I got my first MMR jab I couldn't do anything for a few hours. This does not mean the vaccine is dodgy, if that's what you're saying. This is just the antibodys taking effect.

Too much medicine, not enough health.

What ever happened to having a healthy immune system? There is absolutely NO education about this in schools. I have met maybe two people my whole life besides Naturopathic doctors that know that you can make your immune system strong with proper lifestyle and diet and attitude. What about herbs as medicine? There is a wealth of information about herbs as medicine. The epidemics in Europe didn't happen until the Dark Ages after all the herbalists were burned at the stake. Herbs are VERY VERY effective and safer than most drugs which are derived from herbs. People who get the swine flu or the measles or polio from not getting vaccinated don't know about herbs and a healthy immune system.

Put it this way:

A football player is training up for a game. He has got to win this game or be kicked out. However he is a very good football player.

In this context, you are saying ‘why does he need to train? Isn't he a good football player already? Dosen't training hurt him?’ He needs to train so he can get better and know what to expect on the pitch. And he is a good football player, but training will make him better when the match happens. Also, injuries don't happen very often in this case. They make him stretch before any traning, and by training he is less likely to be hurt on the game.

In real life, training is like the vaccines. The man is the body being vaccinated and the match is the disease. The 'strechtes' are the reaches scientists go to make the vaccines safe. And a healthy immune system is necessary, this can be achieved by eating fruit & veg. Which IS taught via healthy school dinners. The goverment are working to make some kids healthier, via diet and excersise. I did not say vaccines are the ONLY thing to do though. Not at all.

As for all that only-two-people know this, I can already say it's wrong. I know this, my mother knows this, my friend's mum knows this. If I ask around all of Britain I think at least a million people know this.

With the ecidemics thing, what happened to conciedence? The herbilists themselves did not keep the epidemics off, but the virus/bacterium etc is most likely to have been introduced. It's not all cause-and-effect.

I'm not sure with herbs-as-medcines, but I think that certain chemicals in some herbs may have medcinal properties, but they're not the only thing to take when you get ill.

Anyway, the herbs thing, that's medicine when you get sick, not a prevention for certain illnesses. Vaccines do that.

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Originally Posted by DannonOieronaut

Herbs are VERY VERY effective and safer than most drugs which are derived from herbs.

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Your source? And what makes herbs safer than drugs? And what is your definition of ‘very very effective’? What I have written above is my reasoning, my logic. Is what you say your reasoning too?

I'm just questioning your information in a scientific way. Give me an answer that is scientific and I will believe this. And no running to this Mercola guy.

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People who get the swine flu or the measles or polio from not getting vaccinated don't know about herbs and a healthy immune system.

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Are you saying I am stupid and ignorant? Are you saying I don't know anything about health because I had the jab? That logic is childish. Jab=ignorance. Is that what you're saying? You are insulting millions of people, I for one. Please edit that to avoid getting nasty messages.

But don't blame me if you get measles. Unless you had two MMR jabs.

For every disease their are many herbs without side effects that can treat it.
And I am not talking about just eating fruits and vegetables. I am talking about the body's own medicine that it creates to treat any disease caused by a fungus, bacteria, or virus. Diseases like diabetes, cancer, and heart disease, which are untreatable by vaccines can be treated by diet, herbs, exercise, and the body's own medicine.
Nobody knows about the body's own medicine. I bet you are wondering what the hell I'm talking about when I say "the body's own medicine." It is what allowed me to survive eating the food and drinking the water in India, Thailand, Nepal, Mexico, Peru, etc... without any vaccines or bottled water or antibiotics without catching malaria, cholera, dysentery, etc...

Herbalism doesn't need science to verify it. Herbalism has worked for more than 10,000 years except in the Dark Ages of Europe. Science needs to dissect it into its chemical constituents and test each one independently of each other. Science has not had enough time to do that, and also these chemical constituents most of them work together and not alone. But what drugs science knows about has come from plants. It has come from science investigating the healing properties of plants. Plants are chemical factories. Herbalism is over 10,000 years old. Western medicine was blood letting and giving people leaches only a couple hundred years ago, and it had its "scientific" explanations. I am not against science, I just think that it is behind as far as understanding the holistic relationship of the health systems of bodies. It may understand what it does understand in a very thorough scientific way, but I would rather go to a mediocre herbalist than a good doctor for anything except appendicitis or an abdominal aortic aneurism. I treat myself all the time with herbs. I should have made a thread called "ask me about herbalism." And I would rather have my woman give birth to our baby at home than at the hospital. Pregnancy is not a disease. A doctor will give you drugs, and in most cases when a doctor performs a cesarean, it is not needed. They create a climate of fear around the birth for the mother and the baby. Midwives have been performing births since the dawn of humanity. I would take my woman to the emergency room only if it was absolutely necessary and under the advice of the midwife. I trust a midwife way more than I trust a doctor. Science is not evil, I am not against science, but doctors are not scientists, they are business men when it comes to birth, and treating diseases. And the last people I would trust is the pharmaceutical companies.
I trust a doctor much more than I trust the pharmaceutical companies.

I just saw a video where Bill Gates said that if we all get vaccinated and use western medicine we can reduce our population by something like 1/3 and thus solve the carbon footprint of humanity on the planet.

In your example of an athlete training for a competition and comparing that to vaccines, it is more like vaccines are like steroids in this case, which yes, they do make athletes excel, but it does damage the health in the long run, especially in evolution. What if it causes our immune systems to need vaccines to fight off any small virus a few generations down the road? There are natural ways, that works with our immune system and strengthens it to be able to handle threats.

During the plague, the people who survived consistently were the monks in churches who burnt frankincense and myrrh when they treated the sick. Also, when treating people with leprosy you use frankincense oil on yourself so you don't catch it. I learnt this in India. They have known this for at least 10,000 years. Frankincense smoke kills airborne germs, as does myrrh, copal, and other resins. Taken internally is amazing. We need to learn from this knowledge instead of dismiss it because we are prejudiced against cultures before our "scientific" one. Aromatic oils, etc.... even eagles and falcons know to build their nests out of rosemary, sage, thyme, etc. to make the eggs hard and strong and the babies immune to diseases. India has a science of life, called ayurveda, which is a medicine system that they developed over 10,000 years that has a far deeper understanding of how the systems of the body work together with herbs and the mind. Western medicine thinks that it is so clever that it can isolate salicylic acid from white willow bark and make aspirin, but then it wonders why it damages the liver when white willow bark doesn't.

First of all, unless you really mean it, be careful where your 'every' goes. But your placed (or misplaced) word has given me a few questions:

1) What plants cure the common cold, HIV, the flu, and (since you hate vaccines so much) measles? Both the common cold, HIV and flu are curruntly untreatable by Western medicine.

2) if plant medicine has been with the Indians for 10,000 years, how many Indians have lived for 10,000 years? Think about it…

3) How come chemicals work inside plants, but not as medicine?

As for the body-medicine thing, if the body did have a chemical that cures every disease ever known or unknown, then

a) it wouldn't need vaccines or medicine, herbal or otherwise

b) we'd all be hundreds of years old (I mean hundreds, not A hundred).

There IS something in the body that attacks disease, though. It's called the Immune system. Which brings me back to vaccines…

Vaccines literally train your white blood cells to recognize and destroy certain invaders. They don't chemically enhance the white blood cells to be in a frenzy for a few hours. That'd be dangourous.

As for drinking water in Peru etc, thank those white blood cells.

Also, vaccines don't make anyone weaker down Generation Road. And asprin dosen't damage the liver, the NHS says opposite:

An aspirin a day could help prevent liver damage caused by obesity, heavy drinking and drug use.

Diabeties, heart disease and most cancer can't be treated by vaccines, why?Because they aren't caused by a disease-causing micro-organism. Most of those three are caused by poor lifestyle choices, such as smoking and eating a bunch of fast food.

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but I would rather go to a mediocre herbalist than a good doctor for anything except appendicitis or an abdominal aortic aneurism.

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You're missing on good medical care. You're also saying that you would favour a herbalast that may not know what to do to a doctor, degrees and all.

Now for the mothering bit:

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And I would rather have my woman give birth to our baby at home than at the hospital. Pregnancy is not a disease. A doctor will give you drugs, and in most cases when a doctor performs a cesarean, it is not needed.

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Doctors just want you to make it less painful. And they only perform ceasarian when it is painful for the baby to come out.

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but doctors are not scientists, they are business men when it comes to birth, and treating diseases.

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Buisnessmen generally try to sell you stuff, even when it's not needed. Doctors don't try to sell you stuff, espically when it's not needed. At least not a real doctor, anyway.

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even eagles and falcons know to build their nests out of rosemary, sage, thyme, etc. to make the eggs hard and strong and the babies immune to diseases.

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Some piccies of Eagle nests I found on Wikipeida were made of what looks like wood. Unless herbs look just like tree branches.

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I just saw a video where Bill Gates said that if we all get vaccinated and use western medicine we can reduce our population by something like 1/3 and thus solve the carbon footprint of humanity on the planet.

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Where from? A little something (it may be common sense) tells me that it is likely to be fibs. Dangerous ones.

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What if it causes our immune systems to need vaccines to fight off any small virus a few generations down the road?

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There were more people dying from smallpox in 1750 than 1950.

PS I am still insulted by your jab=ignorance comment.

Ask me Tell me forum is for people sharing and asking for wisdom, not opinion. ED is the place for opinions. Moved.

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In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

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Also, 80% of them brushed their teeth regularly. I think we might be on to something here.

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Originally Posted by hgld1234

1) What plants cure the common cold, HIV, the flu, and (since you hate vaccines so much) measles? Both the common cold, HIV and flu are curruntly untreatable by Western medicine.

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Plants used to treat the common cold and the flu would be Echinacea, Oregon Grape Root, Elderberry, Yarrow, Garlic, Goldenrod, etc. I have no experience treating HIV but I know an herbalist in Oregon who does. http://www.botanicalmedicine.org/Tapes/Bios/Yance.htm

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if plant medicine has been with the Indians for 10,000 years, how many Indians have lived for 10,000 years? Think about it…

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Humans don't have to die from disease. If you never ever get sick you still die when it is your time when you get old, but not from a disease.

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3) How come chemicals work inside plants, but not as medicine?

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?????

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As for the body-medicine thing, if the body did have a chemical that cures every disease ever known or unknown, then

a) it wouldn't need vaccines or medicine, herbal or otherwise

b) we'd all be hundreds of years old (I mean hundreds, not A hundred).

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a. My point exactly, we don't need vaccines or medicine, herbal or otherwise ideally, if we use our body's own medicine
b. like I said, death is part of life, not a disease. Just because we don't get sick doesn't mean that we don't die. That is a whole other ballpark.

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There IS something in the body that attacks disease, though. It's called the Immune system. Which brings me back to vaccines…

Vaccines literally train your white blood cells to recognize and destroy certain invaders. They don't chemically enhance the white blood cells to be in a frenzy for a few hours. That'd be dangourous.

As for drinking water in Peru etc, thank those white blood cells.

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I know how the immune system works, I know about antibodies and white blood cells. I know about the lymphatic system. I know about the ph level of the blood. I know all about this. I know how antibodies are formed by exposure to a virus. That is the concept of vaccines. With a healthy immune system you don't need to train lymphocytes to attack invaders, they do it naturally.

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Also, vaccines don't make anyone weaker down Generation Road.

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We don't know that, we will have to wait and see. But it is also likely that viral mutations are happening that will render the vaccines ineffective. Just like roaches become immune to roach poison. Viruses fulfill a niche in the ecosystem, weeding out the weak. Not that I like that, but that is the way nature works.

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And asprin dosen't damage the liver, the NHS says opposite:

An aspirin a day could help prevent liver damage caused by obesity, heavy drinking and drug use.

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I am talking about a person following a healthy lifestyle, who is not damaging the liver in other ways first. Ironically, a glass of beer is good for the liver also, if it is already damaged. If you have a healthy liver, then a glass of beer won't make it more healthy, but less, same with aspirin. Of course the liver is the fastest healing organ in the body so it is OK to take an aspirin for a headache, but better to take white willow bark tea. But not a big deal, either way.

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Diabeties, heart disease and most cancer can't be treated by vaccines, why?Because they aren't caused by a disease-causing micro-organism. Most of those three are caused by poor lifestyle choices, such as smoking and eating a bunch of fast food.

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Exactly! My point as well. But it goes beyond just fast food and smoking.

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You're missing on good medical care. You're also saying that you would favour a herbalast that may not know what to do to a doctor, degrees and all.

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But I don't get sick. And an herbalist will find out what to do, or I will. But I don't get sick. I would, however, go to the dentist if I had a cavity or another issue. I have never had a cavity though. I had to get a wisdom tooth pulled though. That is something I would go to the dentist for.


Now for the mothering bit:

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Doctors just want you to make it less painful. And they only perform ceasarian when it is painful for the baby to come out.

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Not true.
If they wanted to make it less painful they would let the woman move around, squat, etc. instead of putting her on her back with her legs up in stirrups. Also, they would not rush her so that they can get it over with and go to the next patient. Actually, just watch this clip:

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Buisnessmen generally try to sell you stuff, even when it's not needed. Doctors don't try to sell you stuff, espically when it's not needed. At least not a real doctor, anyway.

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I beg to disagree

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Some piccies of Eagle nests I found on Wikipeida were made of what looks like wood. Unless herbs look just like tree branches.

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They are built with sticks, an eagle cannot lift a tree branch, and where the eggs lie they are lined with aromatic herbs. And yes, many aromatic herbs are woody. Aromatic herbs keep bugs away like lice, ticks, fleas, mosquitos.

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Where from? A little something (it may be common sense) tells me that it is likely to be fibs. Dangerous ones.

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OK, 10-15%. I didn't remember that figure when I posted it above. That is why I said "something".

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PS I am still insulted by your jab=ignorance comment.

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Did I say that? I can't find where I said that. If I did, I am sorry, don't take it personally, I am not calling you ignorant. There is lots that we don't know, we are all ignorant about many things. But I can't find where I said that. If you are referring to the quote where I said that people who get sick with the measles don't know how to protect themselves with herbal medicine, well, that is not meant to call anyone names like ignorant or anything.

People get so offended on this forum as if they are being personally attacked! Especially in ED! Relax people!

This is the point when people start taking things personally that I get discouraged and give up on trying to share my opinion or knowledge.

People are very sensitive about being perceived as ignorant, aren't they?
We have different areas of knowledge! Nobody knows everything!

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Also, 80% of them brushed their teeth regularly. I think we might be on to something here.

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This response doesn't make sense to me.

He's implying that correlation doesn't automatically mean causation.

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People who get the swine flu or the measles or polio from not getting vaccinated don't know about herbs and a healthy immune system.

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Edit that bit out and I will be happy.

EDIT: Actually, it's disease-from-not-having-jab=ignorance. Worse, methinks. Why? Because nobody decides to have the disease, although mabye the vaccination.

Also, what about the possibility of having a strong immune system? A friend had the school attendance record in primary (6 years or something). One time I asked her her secret and she said they were just lucky. On the flipside, I get colds SO OFTEN!!!

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We don't know that

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One example will be enough:

Edward Jenner did his famous expirment in 1796. Nearly 200 years later, the vaccine was declared extinct by the WHO. Did the virus mutate? probably not. Did the people become weaker? I don't think so.

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They are built with sticks, an eagle cannot lift a tree branch, and where the eggs lie they are lined with aromatic herbs. And yes, many aromatic herbs are woody. Aromatic herbs keep bugs away like lice, ticks, fleas, mosquitos.

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http://www.google.co.uk/m/search?sit...le%20nest#i=33

And the herbs- where are they?

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Humans don't have to die from disease. If you never ever get sick you still die when it is your time when you get old, but not from a disease.

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Very few people die from getting old. The top 4 causes of death are:

Heart disease
Cancer
Stroke
Respiaroty disease

Two say they are diseases. The third is cancer. (I'm not surre if stroke counts).

And the oldest person was a French woman. France is (if my geography is correct) far from India and nearby.

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a. My point exactly, we don't need vaccines or medicine, herbal or otherwise ideally, if we use our body's own medicine

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If I took out a dictionary (I can't be bothered) a medicine would be said as something like:

'a chemical that either cures a problem or makes the sufferer feel better'. Unless you mean antibodies (which vaccines help produce). But it probably isn't that. So what is the body's medicine?

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b. like I said, death is part of life, not a disease. Just because we don't get sick doesn't mean that we don't die. That is a whole other ballpark.

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So why can't sombody live off their own medicine to, say, 150. I never said death was impossible. Just that more people would be really old.

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With a healthy immune system you don't need to train lymphocytes to attack invaders, they do it naturally.

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Alright. Let's say somebody dosen't get the MMR jab. A few years later, he contracts the disease. He's got a healthy immune system. However he isn't one of the lucky ones. Measles parylisez him and he is confined to a wheelchair for the rest of this life. ‘Smooth move’ he probably says. ‘I rejected two shots and now I'm stuck here’.

If he had the jab, he would not have needed to be stuck in a wheelchair.

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Exactly! My point as well. But it goes beyond just fast food and smoking.

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How?

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watch this clip

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No thanks and I'd like to see who made it. Not everything is true on there. Or on somewhere called 'somewhere off the Internet'. Then I may watch.

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I beg to disagree

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How?

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OK, 10-15%. I didn't remember that figure when I posted it above. That is why I said "something".

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I don't believe it. For a start, only a few people die due to vaccines. I'm not sure about medicine but it may be similar. But not one in 10 persons.

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People are very sensitive about being perceived as ignorant, aren't they?

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Just don't say that cuz I had the jab I don't know about lifestyle etc.

Also, your ‘herbs are 100% safe 100% efficitive’, well, they're not. Herbs DO have side effects and are not 100% successful, just like Western medicine.

OK, yes herbs have side effects if you take the wrong ones or the wrong dosage. An herbalist needs to be educated. There are poisonous herbs also, so I will agree with the spirit of your criticism of my statement that herbs are always safe.

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No thanks and I'd like to see who made it. Not everything is true on there. Or on somewhere called 'somewhere off the Internet'. Then I may watch.

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If you watched it you will find that it is clips from a movie called "the Business of Being Born". And you cannot say what is or isn't true on there unless you watch it. What do you have to lose?

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Alright. Let's say somebody dosen't get the MMR jab. A few years later, he contracts the disease. He's got a healthy immune system. However he isn't one of the lucky ones. Measles parylisez him and he is confined to a wheelchair for the rest of this life. ‘Smooth move’ he probably says. ‘I rejected two shots and now I'm stuck here’.

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If he has a healthy immune system he won't contract the measles!!! He will be exposed perhaps, but he won't get the disease! His immunse system will take care of it with its strong leukocytes and his immune system will get even stronger!

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Just don't say that cuz I had the jab I don't know about lifestyle etc

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. I said that people who don't get vaccinated and end up getting sick don't know about keeping their immune system strong with herbalism, nutrition, and lifestyle, etc. So this doesn't apply to you. Don't twist my words and take them personally. Pay attention.

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The top 4 causes of death are:

Heart disease
Cancer
Stroke
Respiaroty disease

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Yes, people die from diseases, obviously, nobody is arguing that. I am saying that people don't need to get sick, people don't need to get diseases. But they do, but they don't need to. There is such thing as taking care of your health. Health is a smooth balance of all systems in your body and a happy mind.

The herbs are in the eagle nest where the babies are. Do you know what sage, rosemary, etc. looks like? It dries out you know, but it still is very effective. Cats eat grass to stay healthy, would you like to see a picture of it?

I think that a lot of the misunderstanding is that you may be getting confused between curing a disease and preventative treatments with herbs also.

The body's own medicine is.... I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with antibodies, and growth hormones. And it is sterile.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fyOvO4x-eIw/0.jpg

Herbs and stuff obviously can help. A lot of medicine comes from naturals sources after all, so it shouldn't be a real shock. The body needs the right vitamins and stuff to work correctly, so eating the correct things go a long way in helping you fight off diseases. If your body needs vitamin B to fight off a sickness, then obviously eating something high in vitamin B would help you fight off the sickness. This is why herbs and stuff do work.

That said, there is no such thing as dying from 'old age'. You can't die from being old. You die because some critical body function failed on you. If your heart is to weak to work and suddenly quits on you, you can hardly say you had a strong healthy heart. A healthy person doesn't die. When you die its because you were unhealthy in some way.

Senescence is the term for the aging of body tissues after maturity of an organism. There are herbs that reduce this, but nothing, including western medicine knows how to stop the aging process. Of course you could say that all death is caused by the heart stopping pumping blood to the brain. This gets tricky because we are bringing up causation into the issue. The senescence of the heart, however, is different than heart disease. Many seemingly healthy people have died peacefully in their sleep in their old age, which is how I would like to go. This is different than a heart attack in which the electrical pulse that cues the heart to beat in the right rhythm gets disturbed and starts spazzing out. An defibrillator works by resetting this electrical pulse to the correct pulse.

There is no such thing as dying of old age because of how we attribute causes to death. And old age is not a cause. The cause in this case of dying of old age will always be called heart failure, which is due to senescence which is programmed into our DNA and not a disease. It would be interesting to isolate the gene that is responsible for this and to change it, if that is morally ok. I haven't thought about the morals of it deeply.

I see that we are getting off topic, but I like this new topic. I will need to start a topic on natural medicine or natural healing, etc. What forum should I put it in?

Also, for the record Bill Gates wasn't promoting harmful vaccines, or anything of that sort. I actually looked up the entire video for it, and he doesn't go into details about it, so I can see where the confusion would come from. You need a little background information and it makes sense.

He was talking about lowering the population increase, by making everyone live longer, and reducing child mortality. Basically the poorer the country and the higher the child mortality rate, the higher the birth rate is. This is because you have to have a lot of children, because more of them will die. The more children you have the better chance one of them will reach adult hood. This is why in poorer countries families have far more children than in rich countries. In rich countries people have less children because the risk of losing multiple children early on is significantly reduced.

So that is why having very good health coverage and significantly reducing the death rate in children, should reduce the number of children born, and thus the population will grow by a smaller margin.

I kind of thought that he either misspoke or there must have been some kind of confusion.

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. I said that people who don't get vaccinated and end up getting sick don't know about keeping their immune system strong with herbalism, nutrition, and lifestyle, etc. So this doesn't apply to you. Don't twist my words and take them personally. Pay attention.

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I do nutrition and lifesyle etc and still get the common cold! I got swine flu last year too! Are you saying people shouldn't get ill?

A healthy immune system can still get ill, but a strong iummune system may not. However a healthy immune system CAN fight off most diseases without dying. A healthy person may not be able to lift 50kg, but a strong person may be.

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The cause in this case of dying of old age will always be called heart failure, which is due to senescence which is programmed into our DNA and not a disease.

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A large perportion of heart disease is caused by poor lifestyle choices. Anyway, why would it be programmed to fail after x years? What is the advantage?

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Actually, just watch this clip.

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Two seconds of it told me it was going to be one-sided. Another thirty proved my prediction.

Well, yes, the video has a message. It is put out by people advocating for the right for women to have their babies at home, something that is illegal in many states. So it is fair to be one-sided in this situation when you are trying to educate people about a repressive situation where the medical institution have hijacked something that is not a disease, not a sickness, not something that needs to be cured. This is new. Doctors have only recently been the ones delivering babies. If you have had a baby in the hospital you might know that how the video portrays it is accurate. If you have had a baby at home you might know that how the video portrays it is accurate. I know many midwives who have delivered thousands of babies, midwife teachers etc. and less than 1% have had to take their client to the hospital. The teacher that I know (she is in her 60s) has delivered thousands of babies since 1970 and she has not had to take one client to the hospital, not one cesarean. No complaints about pain. She knows what to do during complications. She has delivered babies both legally and illegally in the U.S. and in Peru. Now she just teaches. Compare that track record with a typical doctor's who delivers babies in a hospital.

Anyway...

YEs, the body tissues age and break down after sexual maturity because once an animal reproduces it isn't needed anymore. Many animals die as soon as they reproduce, like many insects and fish etc. Mammals stay alive a bit longer in order to raise the young. Nature is efficient that way.

I guess we got confused between a healthy immune system and a strong one. To me they are the same. So I hear what you are saying. I mean that if your immune system gets compromised and you get sick with a cold, then it isn't healthy. But you mean that it could be healthy, just not strong enough. So I will use the words strong immune system from now on.
Another thing to know about getting the cold and things like that is that getting sick is a way for the body to get rid of toxins it has accumulated from food, the environment, etc. in order to expel them through mucus etc. Just like if you eat something bad you will throw up or get diarrhea. If you live in a city and breathe a lot of smog, well, it is like smoking cigarettes, and you will get sick in order to cleanse all the smog out of your lymphatic system.

A lot of people are allergic to different foods without even knowing it. I had psoriasis or eczema my whole life. As a child my mom brought me to the doctors and they gave me a cortisone cream that caused cancer in lab rats. It would help a little bit, but if I stopped using it my eczema would come back even worse. I stopped using it. Later in life I found that sunshine made it go away but in the winter it would always come back. It wasn't last year that it dawned on me that I am allergic to something I am eating. Through trial and error I found out that it was dairy that I am allergic to. I quit eating dairy and my eczema disappeared, my hair got thicker with no split ends, I look younger, have more energy, etc. Allergies compromise the immune system and liver function and vitamin and mineral assimilation. Many skin conditions and sinus problems and things like chronic fatigue syndrome are actually caused by allergies to different foods. But I don't think doctors are either educated about it or they aren't interested, they just treat the symptoms. Doctors go to med school and then they graduate. A good doctor will keep studying, but most will just study the information the pharmaceutical companies give them about their new products that treat certain symptoms.

But that is the whole issue, is the symptoms are not the cause of the disease or the sickness, so treating the symptoms doesn't actually cure the disease. IF the disease goes away from treating the symptoms it will come back some time. The underlying cause of the disease might be lifestyle, stress, habitual wrong attitudes or thoughts or emotions, etc. For example, people with short tempers are more likely to have high blood pressure and heart problems. People who are bitter at life are more likely to get cancer, etc. People who are have chronic stress are more likely to develop ulcers. The healthiest thing to do is to be a completely happy content person.

I am an atheist but I know that one of the healthiest things for the body is to have a strong faith in something Divine. That is why people like Mother Theresa and Saint Francis and many others can live with lepers and treat lepers without catching leprosy. Kind of like how placebos work very good is by the power of faith also. If you have faith in the medicine it will work even if it is just a sugar pill.

So fear is not a healthy emotion to have; I think that goes without saying. And being afraid that you will definitely catch the the flu if you don't get vaccinated might make it more likely, whether you get vaccinated for it or not. Having faith that your immune system will operate correctly the way it is supposed to do as long as you treat it good and pay attention to it will pay off.

Nutrition can be very complicated, and what makes it even more complicated is that there are different body types with different metabolisms with different needs. Some people are sensitive to food combinations and need to be aware of not combining carbohydrates with proteins, others can handle it fine. Some people will need to eat more salmon or evening primrose oil or flax oil if they have dry skin conditions. I had to when I had eczema to keep in under control. Many people eat too much protein (especially since the Atkins Diet fad) which makes their blood have a acidic PH which weakens the immune system. Negative thoughts and feelings make the ph level more acidic also.

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YEs, the body tissues age and break down after sexual maturity because once an animal reproduces it isn't needed anymore. Many animals die as soon as they reproduce, like many insects and fish etc. Mammals stay alive a bit longer in order to raise the young. Nature is efficient that way.

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What is the point of that? The longer an animal lives, the more broods it can have. Most animals only breed in spring. The mor springs it lives through, the more children it can have.

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I guess we got confused between a healthy immune system and a strong one. To me they are the same. So I hear what you are saying. I mean that if your immune system gets compromised and you get sick with a cold, then it isn't healthy. But you mean that it could be healthy, just not strong enough. So I will use the words strong immune system from now on.

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The immune system's top proity is to defeat the virus. It dosen't care about not looking strong. And somebody getting a cold, noses and all, that dosen't mean the immune system is unhealthy. It is just doing its job.

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Another thing to know about getting the cold and things like that is that getting sick is a way for the body to get rid of toxins it has accumulated from food, the environment, etc. in order to expel them through mucus etc. Just like if you eat something bad you will throw up or get diarrhea. If you live in a city and breathe a lot of smog, well, it is like smoking cigarettes, and you will get sick in order to cleanse all the smog out of your lymphatic system.

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Colds, diahhorea etc are caused by microbes. The body, however, does use mucus to get rid of colds, you are right there. But diaheaer is a side-effect of having the microbe. The effect due to smog is the chemicals causing harm.

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Allergies compromise the immune system and liver function and vitamin and mineral assimilation.

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Allergies are when the immune system attacks a harmless chemical.

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But I don't think doctors are either educated about it or they aren't interested, they just treat the symptoms. Doctors go to med school and then they graduate. A good doctor will keep studying, but most will just study the information the pharmaceutical companies give them about their new products that treat certain symptoms.

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Symptoms are side-effects of the body doing its job when a microbe attacks or what the microbe does. Anyway, treating the symptoms CAN make the disease more berable while the immune system works.

But you say that because…?

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The underlying cause of the disease might be lifestyle, stress, habitual wrong attitudes or thoughts or emotions, etc.

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You fergot the microbe.

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For example, people with short tempers are more likely to have high blood pressure and heart problems. People who are bitter at life are more likely to get cancer, etc. People who are have chronic stress are more likely to develop ulcers. The healthiest thing to do is to be a completely happy content person.

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The only way the mind affects the body in sickness is:

Fear or stress triggering too much fight-or-flight.

Why would bitterness cause cancer anyway? That makes no sense.

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That is why people like Mother Theresa and Saint Francis and many others can live with lepers and treat lepers without catching leprosy.

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Leprosy isn't very infectious.

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So fear is not a healthy emotion to have

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Fear is a perfectly healthy emotion to have, just not too much of it is healthy. Why? Because if you weren't scared of a hungry monster running through town (and therefore do your shopping), you'd be lunch.

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I think that goes without saying. And being afraid that you will definitely catch the the flu if you don't get vaccinated might make it more likely, whether you get vaccinated for it or not. Having faith that your immune system will operate correctly the way it is supposed to do as long as you treat it good and pay attention to it will pay off.

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Story Time:

Once upon a time, last year, reports started coming out of a new strain of flu called Swine Flu. Boy I was scared! But you know what, I didn't get it!
Fast forward about six months. Six months is a long time. I had almost fergotteren about swine flu, and defiantly wasn't scared. But what has happened? I was feeling ill and had decided to make camp on the sofa! I had swine flu!

Need I say more?

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Many people eat too much protein (especially since the Atkins Diet fad) which makes their blood have a acidic PH which weakens the immune system. Negative thoughts and feelings make the ph level more acidic also.

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Why would that be?

EDIT: Although health in the mind is as important as health in the body, they do not intertwin as much as you think. Being a happy person is better than being a grumpy person, but the grumpy person will not get cancer more than the happy person.

EDIT 2: A couple of links saying the placebo is subjective, false or harmful:

http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-20/

The second one is quite recent; it was only written last year.

A healthy person can get sick, they just bounce back quickly. My mother gets the flu vaccine every year, and every year she gets the flu any way, and normally is really sick for like a week. I have never gotten the flu vaccine, and I rarely get the flu, and when I do I get a slight fever and a headache, I ache a little bit and I am fine the next day.

I was going to comment on leprosy the last time you brought it up, but hgld is right. 95% of people are out right immune to leprosy, and then its very difficult for the people who are not immune to catch it as well. Also, modern medicine can cure leprosy in many cases.

I generally agree that I think a lot of doctors are incompetent, and I really dislike vaccines. I think the flu vaccine is just trash and junk, its totally worthless. However if I contracted something like leprosy, you better bet I would go see a doctor, instead of taking herbal medicine.

I will probably not get the flu vaccine until it may cause problems (the flu).

However there is reason for the MMR; measles is infectious and can kill.

Well, that is good news about leprosy! How do people get it and why did they put them all on their own island?

Yeah, the more springs you live through the more litters you can have. Turtles live a long time and lay eggs every year, but, it seems that the longer a creature lives the more likely it will die in an accident or something or get eaten by another animal so Nature must think that it is more efficient to focus on reproduction than longevity.

The links you posted are one-sided, so I won't look at them. Just kidding.

Actually they are slightly biased, bit the second link looks at what the placebo effect CAN do as well as can't. The first is a bit one-sided.

Also, why wouldn't animals live for a few breeding seasons? Evoloution will probably have refined a lot of animals to live for at least a couple of seasons, and produce a lot of children in each season. Take a mammal for instance, a rodent perhaps. She can only give birth to x amount of babies in that time, nothing more, sometimes less. Would it not make sense if the rodent can live to have more litters? Yes, it can get eaten, but animals have defense too. And most animal accidents have happened after we humans invented cars and glass etc. BTW, Nature is not a person or god controlling animal evoloution and behaviour and does not decide ‘reproductiveness or longivity?’ An animal can have both.

And given one hour, older animals are not more likely to get eaten than younger animals. It may be the opposite if younger means juvinile. Unless the old animal was showine effective signs of aging. There are only less old animals than young animals because the older animals have lived the longest.

Howeever, what has animal repoduction got to do with vaccines?

YEs, many animals do live long enough to have many litters. But eventually it is more effecient to die. Maybe it won't be that way forever as evolution continues. And I agree that Nature is not a person or god but for ease of communication I said it that way. I know that it is just an impersonal process of natural selection.

And yes, we have gotten off topic some. Like I said, I have an idea for a new thread.

Eventually animals die, by eating or disease or whatever. But that's not because it's more efficint. That's just the way it is.

Leprosy is caused by a bacteria I believe. The vast majority of people are immune to that bacteria, and some forms of it really isn't contagious at all. If you get treatment for it, then it stops being contagious all together.

If you get no treatment at all, then it can be contagious. Most cases are in really poor countries, where they likely don't get any treatment at all. Plus they have really horrible sanitation. In really poor countries, everything just spreads so much faster, because of general poor health and poor sanitation combined. Back before they had antibiotics, it might have made sense to separate them. Though today, the vast majority of cases can be cured.

On a side note, they have fairly effective vaccines against leprosy as well. If you get the vaccine, and practice basic hygiene, your chances of catching it are pretty slim.

I am not too worried about catching leprosy. I have gotten a vaccination for tetanus a few years ago when I cut my leg open in Hawaii when the garbage bag I was carrying broke and a broken dirty plate was in there slashed my leg open. That was a mess. I had to get stitches and I couldn't swim in the ocean for a few days.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100524/..._autism_doctor

:D Told you that people who think vaccines are dangerous are nothing more than nutjobs.

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Originally Posted by ninja9578

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100524/..._autism_doctor

:D Told you that people who think vaccines are dangerous are nothing more than nutjobs.

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I don't follow. How does that article show that people who think vaccines are dangerous are nothing more than nutjobs?

I was thinking about posting that article as well.

Although while it can be discussed and considered, it doesn't say much about
vaccines in general and most certainly does not weigh heavy enough to decide
on a definite stance on any side in this debate, nor label one as crazy.