This topic is for Atheists only!(Jesus isn't my saviour,etc.

I remember always knowing about Santa Clause but I also remember always knowing he wasn't real. He was presented to me as a fun fictional character, and I got presents from him, but I knew my parents put them there. Sort of like Smokey the Bear or Ronald McDonald, only he'd visit the mall and gave me candy.

I was raised a catholic. When I was younger my parents brought me to church with them but once I was around 15-16 I quit going. My worldview changes all the time, or at least everytime I think of some different way of looking at things, but I have always believed in a higher purpose (not necessarily a higher being). After all, something started it... I think it was the mice.

I'm not against atheists, I just have never understood why you would call yourself that. I am in no way a Christian trying to convert anyone, but I'm starting to realize why people call themselves atheist. First, this can only happen after Christianity, with a history of God. You never find atheists come out of Buddhism or anyother religion because there was never a God to say you don't believe exists. Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules. Now I'm not against Christians either, I just think most of them have the religion wrong, which in turn creates people who go against it. In fact, I think some people who call themselves atheist can be more like Christ than most people who think they are Christian.

Are you actually against God and Christ, or are you against the church's idea of them? I do think that what the church says actually goes against what Jesus said. I do not consider myself Christian more than any other religion, I think they all have something great to offer, if you know what you are looking for. I think they are all saying the same thing, if you go to the root. Christianity is just more symbolic than say Buddhism or Taoism, but they say the same thing. Most Christians do not know this, nor want to think about it because they want a religion all to themselves. Because of this, they twist their religion around and confuse themselves, along with everyone else. I think atheists are just against the main stream Christianity, so calling yourself that is pointless in my opinion. You can still believe what you believe without labelling yourself an atheist, unless you want to establish yourself against your idea of Christianity.

I hear a lot of atheists say they believe death is the end, and thats it, your done. To me, this does not make much sense, but I do not believe in the standard Heaven and Hell, either. Do you think that you came from nothing and will return to nothing? How is that possible? Nothing is not possible since something exists. If you become nothing, that is in relation to something, which in turn makes it not nothing. I do not believe in an afterlife, I believe life is the only thing, you were alive before, now, and forever, death is an illusion, a dream. When you die, you wake up into another dream. When your body dies, it goes back to the earth, it does not turn into nothing, so why would your essence become nothing? You are beyond your body, physical death is the end of one life and the beginning of another. Your essence cannot be found in the physical realm. What exactly is consciousness? Where does it exist? Can you even think about it? Your being is beyond the physical world, beyond your intellect, beyond time. It was never born, so it can never be destroyed, it is just recycled into something else, just like matter. This is my view of God, I also call it Consciousness, Buddha, Tao, Christ, Allah, Ultimate Reality, whatever you want.

Reality is a subjective experience, so I see how an objective God that most Christians want everyone to believe can be offputting. But I don't see why it is necessary to put yourself in relation to that idea. Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules. Now all of this is my opinion. I am in no way trying to say that atheism is not a possible label, I just don't think its the proper label for what you truely believe. I am just looking for a reason why to call yourself atheist. If you are atheist, you have thought about it a lot more than I have, so please explain why you choose that label.

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Originally posted by Mickeys_Elbow
Sort of like Smokey the Bear or Ronald McDonald, only he'd visit the mall and gave me candy.

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LMAO

Actually, that's a cute idea. Presenting Santa as a fun thing, but always keeping it fictional. Like Halloween.

Hrm? Where did my repy go. I must've closed my browser before I hit submit... shame.

Anyway.

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Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules.[/b]

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Excuse me? Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.
Yes, Christianity also teaches many good and nice things, as does Buddhism. But both are riddled with bullshit, made up by people who couldnt believe there's nothing more to life.
The thing is, Christianity is just riddled with more bullshit. Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it. The way most people seem to interpret Christianity is close-minded, judgemental, intolerant, contradictory and hypocritical. So thats why my main beef is with Christianity, also because its the religion I have to deal with the most.
Buddhism might seem fairly nice, but its still bullshit. Its just not for me. Just because I might like it doesnt mean thats the way the world works.
I dont just reject Christianity. I've rejected all.

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You can still believe what you believe without labelling yourself an atheist, unless you want to establish yourself against your idea of Christianity.[/b]

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How can I be an athiest if what I believe is something else then "we're all just vessels of blood and flesh and thats all there is to it"? If I "believed in what I believe" which would not be "that there's nothing more to life" then I would be labeled agnostic to say the least.

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Originally posted by syzygy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(syzygy)</div>

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If you are atheist, you have thought about it a lot more than I have, so please explain why you choose that label.[/b]

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Well let's see what Webster has to say first.

<!--QuoteBegin-Merriam&#045;Webster Online Dictionary
One entry found for atheist.

Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

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I label myself as atheist because I believe that there is no deity.

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Originally posted by CT
Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.... Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it.

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You can't go around making claims about something based on what you've heard.

For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.

The better way to approach it would be for me to say, I've heard that, but I don't know. I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

If from what you've heard about Buddhism makes it sound like it is something definitely not for you, that is all well and good; but nothing about that gives any grounds for you to say if it is bullshit or not.

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Originally posted by dream&#045;scape+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream&#045;scape)</div>

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<!--QuoteBegin-CT

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Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.... Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it.

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You can't go around making claims about something based on what you've heard.

For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.

The better way to approach it would be for me to say, I've heard that, but I don't know. I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

If from what you've heard about Buddhism makes it sound like it is something definitely not for you, that is all well and good; but nothing about that gives any grounds for you to say if it is bullshit or not.[/b]

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Thats bullshit. And totally besides the point.
I'm not sorry for not plastering \"in my opinion\" after every single sentance, I figured it was obvious that we were discussing opinions here, I never stated that I was stating the absolute truth there. I admit there is alot I dont know about Christianity, and Buddhism, but (magic keyword here :roll:) in my opinion I know enough about them to judge them. Dont be so offended, everyone has opinions and everyone judges everything.
so once again for you dream-scaper: All religions are complete and utter bullshit, however friendly and enlightening they are. In my opinion.
You could argue to define religion, but then we'd be arguing semantics and I'd rather not go into that, since english is not my first language so I'd lose by default, and we'd be arguing about something that is totally besides the point and I hate that.


[edit- something I missed before:]

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For example, I've heard your mother is a whore. According to your logic, it would be ok for me to just go on thinking that is true.[/b]

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Well, you heard my mother was a whore. If it seems like the source has plausible arguments to back it up, then yeah why not? Then it is logical for you to assume that my mother is a whore.

What about the practical side of religion? Prayer is about the same thing as religion (when scientists study the psychological effects of prayer, they sometimes use meditation) from an atheistic standpoint. There have been studies that show that meditation makes you quantifiably happier and healthier (National Geographic, March 2005, page 31, research by Richard Davidson and collaegues at the University of Wisconson). There are other benefits that you can logically figure out, such as improving focus - meditation is, after all, an exercise in focus. And it just physically feels good (that may take a 10 or 30 minutes.) In Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, Shunryu Suzuki said that Buddhists don't need to do drugs because they meditate, and that feels good, like drugs :) Prayer and meditation being equal, they both do the same good. There's a big difference between a religions philosophy and what its followers actually do. When I talk about religion, I usually take the realistic approach of what the followers do, and not what a book says. That's why you can't exactly talk about "Christianity" - are you talking about baptists, catholics, mormons, or fundementalists? Which one are you refering to when you talk about "The Church?" People usually use that phrase for catholocism, but not always. This kind of discussion is only constructive debate when people are somewhat specific. Otherwise you're just ranting.

When you say bullshit, CT, do you just mean that you don't like it, or that (in you opinion, of course) it's flat out not true? You haven't been very specific there :) (And this is questioning semantics, not arguing)

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Originally posted by CT
All religions are complete and utter bullshit

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Then you are nothing but bullshit.

Whatever you believe in, that is your religion. If you believe in nothing, you are either a liar or are blind; belief in nothing is in itself a belief, and your religion if that is what you believe.

I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion. You are complete and utter bullshit.

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Originally posted by eccentric

When you say bullshit, CT, do you just mean that you don't like it, or that (in you opinion, of course) it's flat out not true? You haven't been very specific there :) (And this is questioning semantics, not arguing)

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When I said bullshit, it was just a rude way of saying that they're (in my opinion) flat out not true because I felt like making a powerful statement.

In doing that, I must've pissed dream-scaper off since he seems very keen on dodging the original point an meaning of my posts and picking on the way I said things:

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Then you are nothing but bullshit.

Whatever you believe in, that is your religion. If you believe in nothing, you are either a liar or are blind; belief in nothing is in itself a belief, and your religion if that is what you believe.

I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion. You are complete and utter bullshit.[/b]

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Belief in nothing is still a belief in something, which is in turn always a religion? SEMANTICS!

Whatever fancy paradox with words that you come up with, still doesnt change the fact that believing in nothing is not a religion.

Do me a favor and dig up what this thread was about and post something on topic, and not imply a different meaning behind the way I phrased my previous posts. My point was clear, any further discussion is childish. I know you wont agree with me but either way I wont continue this petty and useless off-topic discussion about you deliberatly interpreting my posts in a different way that they were meant, so for me it ends here.

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Originally posted by CT

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Calling yourself atheist is playing by Christian rules.

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Excuse me? Buddhism (for example) is just as much bullshit as Christianity is in my opinion.
Yes, Christianity also teaches many good and nice things, as does Buddhism. But both are riddled with bullshit, made up by people who couldnt believe there's nothing more to life.
The thing is, Christianity is just riddled with more bullshit. Buddhism is a very enlightened religion from what I've heard of it. The way most people seem to interpret Christianity is close-minded, judgemental, intolerant, contradictory and hypocritical. So thats why my main beef is with Christianity, also because its the religion I have to deal with the most.
Buddhism might seem fairly nice, but its still bullshit. Its just not for me. Just because I might like it doesnt mean thats the way the world works.
I dont just reject Christianity. I've rejected all. [/b]

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What does your thinking Buddhism is bullshit have to do with Christianity being the birth of atheism? I am asking why you would define your beliefs by someone elses.

You could also say that just because you think there is nothing more to life, does not mean thats the way the world works. Why do you need something more than life, just that life exists and that you are conscious of it is a reason to look beyond the physical world.

And I do believe this thread was started as a parody of a Christian... my point again.

Wow, thats alot of bullshits in all those posts! =P :lol: bos merde! :P

Honestly, I dont think religion is crap from the male cow. Nor do I think Atheism is poo poo from the bull. I think there are alot of arguments that seem very legible to me to believe in one or the other. Ive stated in many topic and many discussion that I believe you will not be judged for your beliefs in a spiritual something or not (if there is something 'more' and if there isnt it wont matter either, would it?) I still think we should just follow our hearts to decide what you feel will help you most in life, to be at peace with yourself, others and your surroundings. Be it christianity, buddhism or atheism or anything else. My primary goal, and I what I feel should always be the primary goal is to be at 'peace' (very broad understanding to me, just like love).

Generally, I think religious people take their religion waaay too serious. And they also fail to recognise their own metaphors as such. For example, I am not by far a christian yet I believe in "Jezus". I dont think jezus is the saviour, the messiah or whatever. I dont think hes the son of god heck I dont even know if the guy existed or not. But thats not even the point to me. To me, Jezus means love, compassion, wisdom, kindness..etc. Just like buddha. I do find alot of things in buddhism that I feel comfortable with but its not my 'religion'.If there is something 'more' (I personally believe there is) we humans are abit silly to think we can know the absolute truth about it. We are not in the position to know how the universe works completely I think, its just impossible to know at this stage(aka nothing can explain everything at this point). That is why I get back to everything I continiously mention in all my 'deeper' posts. So simple, love, compassion, peace. They are real and universal, you cant deny that, at least I cant. This is all I know for sure, everything else is unsure, we just cant know. And we dont have to. And maybe there is nothing at all, thats possible. Even then, the goal of 'absolute peace' will bring nothing but positive things to all.

As long as somebody doesnt have a negative effect on anybody (including him/her self) and doesnt take things tooo serious its not bullshit to me. And hey, I might be right or I might be wrong when it comes down to my view on how this universe works (my higher spiritual thoughts in which there is no use in sharing them because they are only secondary to the views above) but thats ok.

I guess some people might find my thoughts on this stuff horsecrap (a different word for a change) aswell. :P But oh wells, I will just smile like I always do. That is something I know aswell, smiling is very important in life and in whatever other life that might follow :D

Oh wait..I reconsider, the true god is:
:cookiemonster:
Now worship him or burn in the eternal fields of the most disgusting veggies where no cookies exist!

Wow. That was some interesting reading. After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?

I think relgious people attach spirits, demons and the like to lucid dreaming because they attach it to everything in theie life. Even more so if it is a misunderstood topic like lucid dreaming.
It is a cult you know! :shakehead2:

My two cents is that lucid dreaming, if you look at it in it's basic form is no more than a natural function of the phyce. Just as dreaming is. It sometimes takes a mechanical process to do it. But otherwise it should be considered know physically differant than your subconscious mind mingling with your conscious mind, just the other way around.

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Originally posted by Lucius
Wow, thats alot of bullshits in all those posts! =P :lol: bos merde! :P

Honestly, I dont think religion is crap from the male cow. Nor do I think Atheism is poo poo from the bull.

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HAHAHAHA Lucius!


Ok my turn. Religion is Kuh Scheiß.

No wait, that's "cow shit." I meant Stier Scheiß.

Actually I agree with Lucius. It's Stier Scheiß to call ANYone's beliefs Stier Scheiß, even if they ARE Stier Scheiß.

brb gotta take a scheiß

Alright, here's the obsveration I've made throughout this thread and countless others.

Atheists - have logical thought, reasoning and observation behind their beliefs that is based in reality (our reality).

Theists - cannot come up with one logical argument to support their beliefs. All they can do is attempt to poke holes in the atheist's theory by saying things like:

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Originally posted by dream&#045;scaper+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dream&#045;scaper)</div>

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I don't care what you believe. Whatever it is, it is your religion.[/b]

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<!--QuoteBegin-dream&#045;scaper
I can't make any kind of real decision if she is or isn't until I experience and find out for myself.

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Their other infallible arguments include the now classic, \"you can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore God does.\", and other greats, like \"Science can't explain everything\", \"I choose to believe because it gives me hope and makes me a better person\", and \"I've spoken with God, so I know he exists\".

Please, someone prove me wrong. Someone, please show me some logical thinking and not just a categorical denial of our obviously valid points.

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Originally posted by Howetzer
After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?

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I'm not really sure how you're tying lucid dreaming and religion together...I've never viewed them as remotely connected....elaborate?

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Originally posted by bradybaker

Please, someone prove me wrong. Someone, please show me some logical thinking and not just a categorical denial of our obviously valid points.

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This is not the way I normally put things but..lets me try if the more..err, atheist way?

Is has been researched and concluded that the largest part of the population has for a main goal in life (or among other goals) for them and for their loved ones (and more idealistically, all people aswell) to be happy and find fulfilment. Regardless of what they might believe on a higher level everybody wants to be happy. Neh? Nobody wants to be sad, depressed, an emotional wreck and die knowing your life sucked balls.

Now, psychologically speaking it has been proven that also very large large majority (if not all people) require love and kindness from others to be happy. There might be a person here or there that claims that he does not need the love and the smile of others around him (with love I mean it in a very broad sense, romance, friendship, compassion, acceptance, trust and so on and so forth, love for your fellow soul, or men if you so prefer) but I dont believe them. And I think deep down inside they are not that happy at all and they will not spend their entire lifes claiming this, they will give in at some point and their life will, have sucked balls.

As you can see if we humans require love (again in a very broad) to make the most of out life. And any normal minded person would want everybody to make the most of their lives, yes? BEcause everybody has the right to be happy. Now, certain individuals, like me, search for ways to increase this love so we, and everybody else can be a tiny bit happier in life. And for some people, like me, a spiritual view on things helps enhance this inner love even more. Love itself (and Im not talking about the chemical in your brain when you fall in 'romantic love' which is a coutner argument I could expect, compassion is not a chemical) is godly to me. God is love, jezus is love, buddha is love, whatever.

I do not claim to know how the universe works. But I do know that my ratio and my own logic and brain tell me that love and compassion and such are the primary values we humans NEED to survive. When all our fancy technology would disapear, when all our belongings would be gone, when all our fake appearences would be stripped, this is all there really is, what we can rely on, eachother. Would you not agree that this is something we need, so would you not agree that is only logical for me to search for ways to increase the love? (silly statement but you get my point). And if it happens to be that certain spiritual views can help me with that, is it then not a rational thing to do to make those part of your belief system. It would be very irrational to use a little axe to chop down a tree while there is a chainsaw nearby, even if you dont know for 100% if that chainsaw will be real in the end, it does the trick. Because almost every single religion preaches those things at its core, and I like to put a 'face' to things, a representation, but that doesnt mean I literally beleive in them. As I dont 'love' because I am a buddhist, I am a buddhist because I 'love' (Im not a real buddhist, but yeah)

I hope you are starting to see where I am coming from, looking at it in a way where no 'higher spiritual something would exist with 100% certainty'. Im sure you still think Im being fairly illogical, but I did my best haha :D :P ^_^"

I still wonder though, why are some atheists (or similar minded) bothered alot sometimes by 'relgious' people? I mean..if you believe everything ends after death, that what would it matter anyway? Why not shrug and live your life the way you want it and be happy? I can see though that some people might enjoy debate on this, or they might be annoyed with other people's 'ignorance'? Or they might feel annoyed because of people telling them how very wrong they are and they will 'burn in hell' or such. Just wondering :)

Howetzer wrote:
After reading all that how do you feel about Lucid Dreaming BradyBaker?

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm not really sure how you're tying lucid dreaming and religion together...I've never viewed them as remotely connected....elaborate?

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I myself am not trying to connect the two, rather the opposite. My point is that religious people will connect religion to lucid dreaming as they will connect relgion to anything in their life. Thus if they come across lucid dreaming they will inventually, at some point turn it into something religous.
I think it has nothing to do with relgion.

Your question;

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I'm wondering what you all think about this. I noticed there is a lot of \"new age\" influence with this spirit seeker stuff and all that... Seems like something that's really stupid to me.... and while I'm highly intrigued by lucid dreaming, I just want to be very careful that I'm not doing something that sensible people might think has something to do with that sort of thing. [/b]

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Quite franlky it is sad to say but from what I personally have experianced, most sensible people will consider it whacky. Because they don't understant it.
The point I was trying to make earlier is that somehow, even though lucid dreaming is a natural, SENSIBLE, physical reaction to ones mental pysce it has somehow been cast into the catagories or realm of withcraft, mysteries, occults and so on. This bringing people of reason to regard it as not being sensible.

I agree with Lucius on this and respect the amount of thought and time he has put into this post. My ultimate desire is for people to find happiness without disrupting or challenging other peoples ‘perceptive’ of happiness, be it Atheist, Agnostic or follower of a particular Faith. I wish for happiness in peoples life and my own, what more could we ask for? Man is relentlessly accustomed to Fear, its what drives man to spiritual and psychical death, why not give a hand to love, like the Beatles Song says, “All you need is Love” and not to discredit John Lennon’s amazingly powerful ‘Imagine’ (lol) The foundation of all religious thought after taking away obstacles of differentiation there exists a common theme, an underlining unison of parallel thinking: Peace, Happiness, Truth and Justice (I guess there’s more but I’m no expert).

I’m not associated to one mainstream religious train of thought, but understand the source of most religious reflection and see compassionate attitudes that desire happiness in almost all mainstream manifestations of ‘religion’.

It doesn’t matter if your a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Jew, Pagan (the list could fill the page-LOL) as long as we feel connected to each other and don’t allow the negative aspects of religion take control of the positive aspects of our core spirituality. I dislike when individuals judge each other, the mistake comes from labelling yourself and defining ourselves by religion with identity tags on our foreheads (before you take into consideration where your born, your interests, what your name is, who your family are, what makes you laugh etc) because it shows the importance you put onto your faith above everything else like friendship, compassion, trust, acceptance.

I’m not an expect like Lucius but I understand this message of respect we have to show each other in order to make ourselves happy therefore making the people around us feel comfortable (I know I sound gay but who gives a shit?).

We are all in the same boat why not make it less stressful and more humorous (lol).

Monty Pythons “Meaning of Life” is a good step in the right direction :D

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Lady Presenter: M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations. And, finally, here are some completely gratuitous pictures of penises to annoy the censors and to hopefully spark some sort of controversy, which, it seems, is the only way, these days, to get the jaded, video-sated public off their fucking arses and back in the sodding cinema. Family entertainment? Bollocks. What they want is filth: people doing things to each other with chainsaws during tupperware parties, babysitters being stabbed with knitting needles by gay presidential candidates, vigilante groups strangling chickens, armed bands of theatre critics exterminating mutant goats. Where's the fun in pictures? Oh, well, there we are. Here's the theme music. Goodnight. [/b]

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Holy heck, ok.

The reason people can believe in something that has no proof of existence, is because they have faith.

So the real question, is why do people have faith? Because they need it to fill some empty space? So they won't fear death? So they won't feel so much despair at the thought of never again seeing loved ones that have died? Because they want to be sure that the guy who murdered their mom and was never caught will go to hell so that they'll have "justice"?

I have always been fascinated by the whole psychology behind the purpose of having faith in that which cannot be proven. And it always seem to be in place to fill some kind of gap. Perhaps believeing in oneself and having a stronger character will alleviate this need for myths, legends & fairytales. Just a thought.

Peace
xoxo

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Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
Holy heck, ok.

The reason people can believe in something that has no proof of existence, is because they have faith.

So the real question, is why do people have faith? Because they need it to fill some empty space? So they won't fear death? So they won't feel so much despair at the thought of never again seeing loved ones that have died? Because they want to be sure that the guy who murdered their mom and was never caught will go to hell so that they'll have \"justice\"?

I have always been fascinated by the whole psychology behind the purpose of having faith in that which cannot be proven. And it always seem to be in place to fill some kind of gap. Perhaps believeing in oneself and having a stronger character will alleviate this need for myths, legends & fairytales. Just a thought.

Peace
xoxo

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The reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme being. My religion just makes sense and it can connect with my life. I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both. To bash a religion just shows that you fail at your own beliefs because you feel a need to try to make your beliefs higher by trying to make other people feel bad. That is why I don't like many religious discussions because people are too stupid to know the point of proving someone wrong and telling them that everything they have known is bad and untrue. I have seen it go over the top here. I won't name anyone, but it really annoys me to see things like that happen. I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me. If you give me facts I care, but raw opinion I laugh at because in an hour I will probably forget it. You all are great people, but just make sure to watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.

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Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)</div>

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Love itself (and Im not talking about the chemical in your brain when you fall in 'romantic love' which is a coutner argument I could expect, compassion is not a chemical) is godly to me. God is love, jezus is love, buddha is love, whatever.[/b]

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I agreed with pretty much everything you said up until this statement, where all logic evaporated. It's not that I don't respect your opinion, I do, but that's all it is, an opinion. The definition of 'love' from an evolutionary and chemical standpoint makes much more logical sense and is much more consistent with our observation of reality. And just because you predicted the counter-argument does not make that argument invalid.

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Originally posted by Lucius@
I do not claim to know how the universe works. But I do know that my ratio and my own logic and brain tell me that love and compassion and such are the primary values we humans NEED to survive.

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Agreed. But that does not make it supernatural in anyway. Love is a word, not a physical thing, what matters is simply the connection that it implies. That connection is fully explainable through the process of natural selection of genetic material.

<!--QuoteBegin-Lucius
I still wonder though, why are some atheists (or similar minded) bothered alot sometimes by 'relgious' people? I mean..if you believe everything ends after death, that what would it matter anyway? Why not shrug and live your life the way you want it and be happy? I can see though that some people might enjoy debate on this, or they might be annoyed with other people's 'ignorance'? Or they might feel annoyed because of people telling them how very wrong they are and they will 'burn in hell' or such. Just wondering

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A valid question...and a difficult one to answer. To be quite honest (and this is not meant as a personal attack on anyone) I pity theists as I'm sure most of them pity me. I firmly believe that 89% (or whatever the number is now) of the world's population suffer from a form of self-reinforcing delusion that they call \"faith\". No one has a problem if a deeply religious person says, \"If I could just reach one person and show them the beauty of God, it would all be worth it\". So why not the other way around?

Mostly I just like debating though. I have way too much time on my hands...

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Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

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The reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme
being[/b]

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Please, the suspense is killing me! Reveal the logic behind that statement.

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Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

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I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both.[/b]

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I'd really like to hear that too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me.

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Such closemindedness is very unfortunate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.

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Yeah...I sure wouldn't want anyone to think I was an idiot. :hrm:

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Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

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Mostly I just like debating though. I have way too much time on my hands...

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Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)

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The reason why I believe in religion is because I see that it is more logical that the world was made by a supreme
being[/b]

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Please, the suspense is killing me! Reveal the logic behind that statement.

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Originally posted by Yume
I use a mix of Science and Religion to further prove the existance and logic in both.

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I'd really like to hear that too.

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Originally posted by Yume
I believe it because it is real to me and that is all that matters because in reality your opinion means nothing to me.

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Such closemindedness is very unfortunate.
<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
watch what you are doing because you could make yourself look like an idiot.

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Yeah...I sure wouldn't want anyone to think I was an idiot. :hrm:[/b]

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Point A: I think that it is more likely that the world was made by a supreme being than any other reason out there. It just seems by my common sense that there is someone that created the earth and us to live out our lives. Other ways of looking at it are less likely to me.

Point B: Instead of hindering each other I like to see them work together. An example of this is why I shouldn't eat pork. Pigs are so much like humans it basically means you eat pork you are almost a cannibal. It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake. Both science and religion back up my reasons not to eat pork.

Point C: You should really read the whole thing. I do not care about opinions towards things like religions. If you give me true facts about a religion then I will listen, but things like I don't think it is right or you are inferior because you think this way are just ridiculous.

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
I firmly believe that 89% (or whatever the number is now) of the world's population suffer from a form of self-reinforcing delusion that they call \"faith\".[/quote]

I do not think you shouldn't have an opinion and infact be my guest, but I think opinions have no real validity unless backed up with real reasons to support them. It is not being close-minded. It is filtering out the information that is close-minded without any proof of it.

Point D: At least you aren't trying to purposely go against someone and laugh and make fun of them. At least I hope you aren't.

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Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

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Point A: I think that it is more likely that the world was made by a supreme being than any other reason out there. It just seems by my common sense that there is someone that created the earth and us to live out our lives.[/b]

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Can you provide any justification for that statement? (ie. specific observations that support your theory)

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Originally posted by Yume+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Yume)</div>

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Pigs are so much like humans it basically means you eat pork you are almost a cannibal.[/b]

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'Almost' only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume@
Point C: You should really read the whole thing. I do not care about opinions towards things like religions. If you give me true facts about a religion then I will listen, but things like I don't think it is right or you are inferior because you think this way are just ridiculous.

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So let me get this straight, you don't care about opinions. Only facts. But you choose to 'believe' in something that is not supported by a single fact? You've chosen something to believe in that is unfalsifiable and now you demand facts to change that view. Ever heard of green homunculi?

It basically goes like this: Every single human (you, me, everyone) actually has a little alien creature inside your skull instead of a 'brain'. There is no such thing as a brain, only these creatures called homunculi that control everything you do. You've never seen a brain inside someone's head, so obviously you only assume its there because people tell you that it is, and you've seen pictures of 'brains'. But really, it's just a little green homunculi that controls everything you do. And if you were to cut open someone's skull and look inside, what would you see? A brain of course, the homunculi inside your head can alter what you percieve to protect the identity of all green humonculi.

That's a rather famous example (that I explained pretty poorly) of an unfalsifiable argument. Try and prove it wrong, I dare you.

<!--QuoteBegin-Yume
I think opinions have no real validity unless backed up with real reasons to support them.

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Am I missing something here? YOU HAVE OPINIONS WITH NO "REAL" REASONS TO SUPPORT THEM AND HOLD THEM AS VALID.

Point A: Whne I read the beginning of Genesis they way God created the world seemed like it fit all together. How God created the earth made it believable. No scientific explanation had believable ways the earth was created. The way that it is described in the Torah makes it seem like a divine being created the earth.

Point B: "It is the most unhealthy meat out there that humans intake". You could eat healthier meats instead of eating pork. It creates the worst problems. You are screwing yourself over when you eat it.

Point C: Religion has many facts. You just haven't seem to encounter any. There are facts every day that religion can be proved. I think that you should go and seek those out on your own. It isn't set on a silver platter for you. If you have never found a fact proving religion correct it shows you are not very open-minded and don't look far from the tree.

As for your answer just check out your local morgue.

D: Give me an example please.

hah...this should be interesting.