Thread: Simulated lucidity ( dreaming of having a lucid dream)

Sometimes I dream and act like I'm lucid, but without the actual awareness. Instead, the "lucidity" is a part of the dream plot, and may or may not involve me doing things that I'd actually do while lucid. I don't really spend too much time on decision-making in these dreams because my dream-self already knows what it wants to do, since it's just like a normal dream.

Either that, or I'm aware in an actual lucid. Or, of course, I'm just having a regular dream. That's the extent of my experiences.

Originally Posted by Sushi

Sometimes I dream and act like I'm lucid, but without the actual awareness. Instead, the "lucidity" is a part of the dream plot, and may or may not involve me doing things that I'd actually do while lucid. I don't really spend too much time on decision-making in these dreams because my dream-self already knows what it wants to do, since it's just like a normal dream.

Either that, or I'm aware in an actual lucid. Or, of course, I'm just having a regular dream. That's the extent of my experiences.

Fantastic you have successfully experienced and grasped the concept of simulated lucidity. You see there are so many out there who claim to be pro lucid dreamers however they also include their simulated lucid dreams in their actual lucid dream count. Some people just want to seem cool and say "Ive had 200 lucid dreams in 1 year" which is quite unlikely. People are scared to admit simulated lucid dreams exist since it means they will likely have to divide their lucid dream count by 5.

For example I state that I have had 7 true lucid dreams... I could say I have had over 3,000 if I go by the definition of "knowing your dreaming within a dream" since I had nightmares every night straight for 10 years where I "know I was dreaming " and could only awaken once I either killed myself or got viciously attacked by a nightmare creature I called "the wild cat". People need to understand that you can dream that you are lucid without being lucid.

From my time on the forums here, I've seen many people do ask if "this was a lucid dream?" because they weren't aware, but they were still behaving as if they were. Some of these people do end up counting them towards their total. Personally, I'm positive my lucid count consists entirely of real LDs, maybe with a couple missed "false lucids" - if I do have a false one, I'll usually post it and say, "ugh, another dream in which I was pretending to be lucid..." but not count it.

But I agree, there's a fine line to draw between the "false" ones and real ones; you can act like you're lucid but not have the mental consciousness or capacity. Being lucid means to be aware and conscious, so if this isn't attained, it's not a lucid. IMO, it's a bit odd how such a seemingly simple definition can be misinterpreted.

There's a crucial difference between being aware and dreaming of being aware. I've had some pretty frustrating dreams where I dreamed of being lucid.

I think you might be interested in this thread, if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/lucid-...tals-q-125579/

Simulated lucidity, as you put it, is definitely a real thing, but the line can be even blurrier than what you've presented.

I do believe in this simulated lucidity as you call it. This is why I put most of my focus on WILD's. I don't think I've ever had a DILD in which I was truly aware.

My most common form of DILD involves my dream self trying to perform a WILD. My dream self will out of the blue decide to stop doing whatever he's doing, lay down and perform a WILD. One time it was done in the middle of a road. And of course the "WILD" succeeds. But here is exactly why I believe in your definition of lucidity. After my dream self has a successful WILD he will know that he is dreaming and behave accordingly. Sometimes trying to accomplish real goals that I have and sometimes just jumping around like a giddy moron. He might also think back to his WILD attempt in order to find clues that might help him succeed in future WILD's. He might think back to the one that was done in the middle of the road. And it will seem perfectly acceptable. He'll learn that the true key to a successful WILD is doing it in the bloody street. Just like an ordinary dream there is no logic. After I wake up I immediately realize that I was not truly active in that dream. Sure I was aware that I was dreaming. But there was no awareness. No lucidity.

My WILD's are not like this. All the mental tests that I have done, so far, tell me that my mind has the same capacity that it has when I'm awake. There is no mixing up what is true and isn't. No hazy dream feeling. It's a totally different experience. When I wake up the memory doesn't begin to fade in the same way ordinary dream and DILD memories do. It feels just like a real memory, although given the circumstances it can never be confused with a real memory.

My most common form of DILD involves my dream self trying to perform a WILD. My dream self will out of the blue decide to stop doing whatever he's doing, lay down and perform a WILD. One time it was done in the middle of a road. And of course the "WILD" succeeds.

Yep... I can relate to that!!! Here's a quote from day 85 of my book:


"Once asleep I had a non-lucid dream set in a sleep research centre. The scientists asked me to attempt a WILD (Wake induced lucid dream). After closing my eyes I eventually started to see fragments of hallways and rooms. Slowly the fragments became reality and I found myself deepening and maintaining the state.

Once everything became crystal clear I began to explore. There were a few doors randomly placed along the hallway leading to more rooms however they all seemed to be locked. As a result of this I decided to take the elevator in the middle of the hallway to the top floor. Due to memory gaps I am unable to remember the rest of the dream however I do remember meeting a few people in some of the rooms. Some of these people were vicious and crazy while others were peaceful and befriending.

At some point in the dream I remember reading a book and realising that the first sentence changed each time I read it. The sentence was in english and the words were readable but the sentences as a whole did not make sense."

Of and here is another quote from day 33... Since this is not a real lucid dream there's no purpose in inserting the whole experience:

In my dream which was set at a friend's house I dreamt that I became lucid. I was not truly lucid however and only dreamt that I was. I performed a breath through closed nostrils reality check which returned positive. I then tried forcing myself out of the dream to attempt phase entrance. If this occurred while conscious I would know that there would be no need to return to my body as I would already be in the phase.

Exiting the dream I found myself in bed fully paralysed. I was experiencing sleep paralysis which made me remember the time I first experienced it on day two. My room was completely dark and I needed to roll out before the hallucinations associated with sleep paralysis started forming. While attempting to roll out I felt myself rocking from side to side violently until eventually I landed next to my bed.

Once I was out I instantly started palpation. I quickly ran my hands over my bed and computer chair to deepen the state. I have a memory gap here but the next thing I remember is being on my balcony ready to fly. Another reason this was definitely a dream and not a phase experience is because my plan of action was to go to the moon. Within the dream however I believed it was just to fly off the balcony (my old plan of action). Also while on the balcony my mum was in a room of the unit that didn't exist in real life however I didn't notice this within the dream.

Simulated lucidity, as you put it, is definitely a real thing, but the line can be even blurrier than what you've presented.

Heh... Ya THINK!!!

Lol I totally know what you mean... my last lucid dream on day 109 is my biggest concern. I really cant tell if it was lucid or not lucid at all. I have used my system however to classify it as a low lucidity lucid dream since I actually completed my plan of action which has multiple steps. Basically my plan of action was to go into my bedroom, grab a note I had prewritten in waking life and hidden behind my computer monitor then teleport to a room within myself to give the note to an entity that may be living within me. In real life I had actually forgotten what the note said but I was able to recall the lost information by reading the note within the dream... that proves you can recall forgotten information within lucid dreams! If you wanna read that experience you can do so by visiting the link below since its way to big to post here:
Real or simulated lucid dream??? you decide!

Anyway glad people understand that simulated lucitiy is possible and is different from low lucidity... Also once again I do take into concideration that lucitiy can be gained and lost throughout a dream... but still simulated lucidity is a separate topic.

I'm glad you made this thread because I can see now I was being stubborn and close-minded when we were arguing in Nomad's thread.

I would be lying if I were to say that many of my lucid dreams involved me behaving in a very dream-like manner, so many times I'd wake up and think 'wtf, how could I waste such an opportunity doing things I would never accept if I was awake?'. It's a matter of pride and vanity that makes someone reject the idea that they may experience false lucidity, I guess it's a learning process you have to go through in this huge journey of lucidity to become less protective and grasping over an 'ld count' (which actually has little bearing on ability if you take simulated lucidity into account as you said).

"The same analytical conscious mind that is present during waking life becomes present during a dream."

That definition is what convinced me that simulated lucidity must exist. It would be a mistake to say that lucidity=knowledge, after all knowledge is subjective, it can be deceptive. If lucid means light then what is that light? Knowledge, awareness, thought?

I guess you could take two angles on simulated lucidity. On the one hand it may be a result of still impaired functioning of the logical forebrain that hasn't fully awakened from the torpor of dreaming, in which case stabilisation and the like could resolve simulated lucidity. On the other, it may be that simulated lucidity arises from the unconscious mind as it recognises a preoccupation with lucid dreaming and, as it does with any preoccupation from waking life, supplies the conditions in a dream. Robert Waggoner theorised that in dreams there is an agent behind the scenes, pulling the strings every time new content is generated or the dreamer enacts a change in the dream, he called it the 'bricoleur' or more poetically 'the dreamer behind the dream', he believes that whenever the dreamer exercises control it is not his conscious mind that brings new DCs or scenes to life but instead this mysterious autonomous agency who takes the basic intent of the dreamer and fills in the blanks (such as when you summon something behind a door, the dreamer behind the dream inserts something that fits with the basic outline of what you wish for), which also explains why expectation is not the be-all-and-end-all of control, the bricoleur may act in contrary ways.

If you accept this concept it's easy to see how in a non-lucid dream the dreamer may be supplied with an illusory lucidity that is no different from dream awareness, rudimentary control that is limited by the unfocused dream generation of the bricoleur, resulting in paradoxical dreams of false awareness.

I'm glad you made this thread because I can see now I was being stubborn and close-minded when we were arguing in Nomad's thread.

I glad you see how you were... And I forgive you. You made me feel like I was going crazy and like I was the only one but now that you see others share the same opinions you can see I am not alone. I understand how you felt though... You didn't wanna lose to some dream views.com noob who had only 10 posts when you had 700. Just so you know I use this site as a secondary reference and am not that active to compared of obe4u.com. At that site I am of of the 9 pinned Lucid dreaming (they call it phase) practitioners. Just know that I am no noob.

That definition is what convinced me that simulated lucidity must exist.

Wow really that's all it took... Well that's what I call an easy conversion
I gotta say I am glad you showed me the current definition of lucid dreaming because that's what inspired me to write what I call the proper definition. With that terrible old definition many will disbelieve in lucid dreaming and how great it can be when they discover their experiences are not what they though it would be. Really it's not your fault you disbelieved me... It's that very incorrect definition that restricted your thoughts.

What I would love to see is an official article on the website which I would be glad to write that promotes awareness of simulated lucidity. Also changing over the official definition of lucid dreaming to my own (you liked it so why wont others). With both these things in place people will gain a much greater understanding of what its like to truly be lucid.

Good luck everyone in your true lucid journey... Just remember simulated lucidity isn't all bad since it prepares you for the real thing. It's only an obstacle if you can't tell the difference between a real lucid and "simulucid" dream... (trying to play around with words... From now on sl means "simulated lucid" and rl means "real lucid")

Having just the thought "I am dreaming" is not necessarily the same as having the realisation "I am dreaming". The thought and the realisation are two separate things, which should, but sometimes don't, occur simultaneously.

IMO The most common misconception is that if one gets lucid, then one is lucid all the way through the rest of the dream scenario. Not often so: a few brief moments of lucidity can be quickly followed by one forgetting that one is dreaming.. and subsequently getting pulled into a non-lucid or waking up. Learning to recognise this slippage of lucidity as it's happening is a key to prolonging "control" - with practice, you can RC and stabilise your "awareness", i.e. keep lucidity, over-and-over again.

I don't buy most of the "lucid dreams" I read on here.

Originally Posted by Oneiro

Having just the thought "I am dreaming" is not necessarily the same as having the realisation "I am dreaming". The thought and the realisation are two separate things, which should, but sometimes don't, occur simultaneously.

IMO The most common misconception is that if one gets lucid, then one is lucid all the way through the rest of the dream scenario. Not often so: a few brief moments of lucidity can be quickly followed by one forgetting that one is dreaming.. and subsequently getting pulled into a non-lucid or waking up. Learning to recognise this slippage of lucidity as it's happening is a key to prolonging "control" - with practice, you can RC and stabilise your "awareness", i.e. keep lucidity, over-and-over again.

I don't buy most of the "lucid dreams" I read on here.

^ YES. I was trying to put words to that first sentence but I never could, for some reason.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with you. The term "lucid dream" does not state how much minimum or maximum time someone has to be lucid in order for the dream to be considered an LD. A large number of my lucids were less than three or four minutes in length; some of them I lost lucidity halfway through... These ones definitely still count as lucids, even if I don't retain the awareness until the dream ends. If someone doesn't consider [dreams where you lose lucidity before it ends] lucids, then all DILDs also can't be considered lucids, because what about the non-lucidity before you discover that you're dreaming?

What will happen if you become lucid in a dream about you sleeping and becoming lucid?

Anyhow.

I've had non-lucids where I would lie down, attempt a WILD, succeed in the WILD, then actually become lucid in the new dream, believing I really succeeded in a WILD... Until I woke up and realized the whole WILD thing was just a bunch of baloney...

The lucidity in these cases was definitely real, because I was thinking back to waking life memories and actively deciding courses of action within the dream. I can see why some may find the lucidity in situations like this to seem "simulated", though.

I understand the point you're making and realize how sometimes the "lucid" dream can be simulated, but I'm wondering if by your guidelines does it have to follow each one of those points you listed. I've been wanting to keep track of my progress and make notes about my level of lucidity in my dreams over time. I like your explanation of "Simulated Lucidity" and wanted to add that to my list, so I just wanted to know how you go about deciding that, if it has to follow every one of those points in your list.

I'm still new to this and I haven't really gotten to the point where I have something planned out for my lucid dream so if I have a realization that I'm dreaming there isn't anything that I have planned out to do, I just want to look around and get used to the dream world, though with mine so far I've just woken up shortly after realizing. Also with my dreams where I realize that it's a dream, I'm fully aware that I'm in my bed sleeping and can recall my memories and things like that, but sometimes I may not think of anything odd about an extra doorknob on a door (this happened) because I'm distracted by being lucid, if that makes sense, and I'm not really paying attention and I'm kind of excited. I was just wondering how you would consider something like that, whether it would be real or simulated.

I feel like because I'm new at this, my lucids are probably real because I don't really have anything to simulate. I become fully aware that it's a dream (even if it's a short amount of time) and can recall my memories and act on my waking ideas, and it's not like I'm used to becoming lucid often enough that some of my dreams can become just a non-lucid where I act like I am lucid, if you know what I mean.

Anyway my main point was just to find out how you follow those guidelines, and if a dream has to have each of those points to determine if it's simulated/real, but I just thought I'd add in my examples and see what you thought about beginners and their experiences, if they would be considered real or simulated.

I understand the point you're making and realize how sometimes the "lucid" dream can be simulated, but I'm wondering if by your guidelines does it have to follow each one of those points you listed.

Ah woops I didn't make that clear. If your answers turned out like the following your likely lucid:
1 = yes
2 = no
3 = yes
4 = no

if I have a realization that I'm dreaming there isn't anything that I have planned out to do, I just want to look around and get used to the dream world, though with mine so far I've just woken up shortly after realizing

Don't wanna sound mean but that's a big NO NO in lucid dreaming. Without anything you want to do your experiences will often end quickly and you won't know if you were lucid or not. By having a plan with multiple steps you will not stumble on what to do (too much internal thinking ejects you from the dream world) which will allow you to stay lucid until you complete your tasks without getting distracted.

I feel like because I'm new at this, my lucids are probably real because I don't really have anything to simulate. I become fully aware that it's a dream (even if it's a short amount of time) and can recall my memories and act on my waking ideas, and it's not like I'm used to becoming lucid often enough that some of my dreams can become just a non-lucid where I act like I am lucid, if you know what I mean.

Don't think you cant have simulated lucid dreams before having a real one... trust me I know from experience. Infact I had simulated lucids before my real ones in which my dream body performed tasks without me being truely lucid which allowed me to learn how to do these things. Simulated lucids are like your training ground for the real thing. Think of them like a video tutorial... once you have watched them they no longer have a purpose other than to waste your time and annoy you. Also you can recall real life memory's in simulated lucid dreams which is why distinguishing the difference can be a real chore.

but sometimes I may not think of anything odd about an extra doorknob on a door (this happened) because I'm distracted by being lucid, if that makes sense, and I'm not really paying attention and I'm kind of excited.

If you performed your plan without noticing anomaly's then its likely you had low lucidity. I have labeled my experiences where I have completed my plans yet not noticed anomalies as ow lucidity experiences. I am able to detect anomalies within dreams however and this is a very important skill used to remain lucid.

Good luck but remember that simulated lucids aren't always bad... You can learn things from them such as what a reality check feels like or how to fly. Simulated lucidity is how I gained the skills I have today. Just don't include them in your lucid dream count whatsoever since your technically not lucid. IMO people should have separate rl (real lucids) and sl (simulated lucids) counts and describe what they have learnt from the simulated lucid dreams

Ah ok that clears it up, I guess mine have probably all been simulated then because I'm not able to become truly aware of the dream surroundings yet. But that's fine because like you said it's still good practice to learn what the dream feels like. I like your idea of simulated lucids being "training grounds" for real lucids Right now I guess I need to work on creating a plan for what to do when I become lucid. Lately I've just been working with awareness and recall and haven't had many LDs in a while, but I just recalled 4 dreams last night so I think I'm gonna start working on autosuggestion more to give myself some steps to follow when I become lucid.

Thanks for the explanation! I'm gonna add this to my list for levels of lucidity and reset my counter.

Thank you for this thread.

I'm familiar with "dreaming about being lucid without actually being lucid" and have had some of these (of course I have 'cause I read and think about it a lot, and so does most people in here, so most likely you're right about a lot of people adding sl's to their count) but still your thread made me wonder if I'm actually able to distinguish between sl and low-lucidty-rl. I thought I could, but now I'm not so sure.

But do you really think that your definition of rl:

The same analytical conscious mind that is present during waking life becomes present during a dream.

works for low-lucidity-rl's as well? I'm pretty sure I can be lucid and do what I've planed to do without being fully as analytical as in waking life.

Now I know that that dream in which I took pictures of things to show to people when I woke up was not a lucid. Still fun none the less.

But do you really think that your definition of rl:

The same analytical conscious mind that is present during waking life becomes present during a dream.

works for low-lucidity-rl's as well? I'm pretty sure I can be lucid and do what I've planed to do without being fully as analytical as in waking life.

Yes my definition works for low lucidity... Take sickness as an example.

In real life when your sick you can't fully think correctly. Your a lot slower and can't often make up your mind about basic things. A low lucidity lucid dream could be thought of as a lucid dream in which the concious mind is having difficulty fully focusing in a nonphysical environment. Your brain is practically acting like a fish out of water within a lucid dream.

The physical brain is supposed to be used in a physical environment controlling a physical body. Your physical body collects physical data from your eyes, nose, ears and many other sensory organs. Within a lucid dream there is no physical data to collect. Where does this data that creates the dreamworld come from??? If there's no input why do we simply not see Or feel anything... It's a sensitive subject since many believe this data comes from real non-physical dimensions... I have not closed that possibility off but for the purpose of explaining simulated lucidity I am going to say that that your brain generates this input.

It's hard enough living in a world where our brains control our body but in a lucid dream your brain controls your body and your world... That's a lot of work!!! So obviously within a lucid dream your brain's preoccupied with creating the environment... You say something to someone in a dream and the reply is unexpected... Your brain is controlling these people and unexpected environments. In lucid dreaming your analytical concious mind is there but it's not working as well due to the massive amount of extra processing your subconscious is doing.

That's exactly the cause of low lucidity... Your brains doing much more processing and as a result your concious mind can't function as well. Bad functioning = low lucidity. That's why low lucidity often occurs when you talk to someone or fly over a huge landscape. The most lucid dreams occur in your own dream bedroom by yourself which results in the least amount of processing by the subconscious.

Anyway good question, hope I helped

I believe this to be true. I've had at least two LD that seemed like "dreaming about lucid dreaming" to me. I was waking up from them like from any other interesting dream, and I questioned many of my actions afterwards.
After the two lucid dreams I would consider to be 100% lucid dreams I was waking up completely aware and awake. I could even witness the whole waking up procedure, feel atonia leave my body etc. The first one did also feature a stupid decision, but.. well the sensation is something very exciting, and I also do stupid stuff while being awake, actions that I question afterwards. I was able to tell who I am, what my job is and remember my goals inside the second "true" lucid dream. That, along with the high awareness upon opening my eyes, is enough proof for me.

But yeah, I am sure that a lot, if not most of the experienced "lucid" dreams are indeed only dreams about lucid dreaming.

Originally Posted by Djaxup

But yeah, I am sure that a lot, if not most of the experienced "lucid" dreams are indeed only dreams about lucid dreaming.

Some people argue that ALL lucid dreams are only dreams about lucid dreaming and that lucidity is an illusion.

Originally Posted by Oddalys

I had a dream last night
And it started happy... Me my mom and Lil sis went to sign up to become police
Then I'm holding an umbrella & the sun is out & we are all happy while this song plays ( I'm a cop /police.....I'm a cop/police) then everything goes red & I hear thunder ...then I'm holding an umbrella but I'm crying and its raining ....then I look behind me & I see a women smiling..... Then I look in front of me & I see my Lil sis in a cofen ...& the same song plays but in a demon voice ....then I wake up crying......

THATS IT :/ .....CAN anyone tell me what it means????? :/

I don't get why necroposting in order to look for a dream intrerpretation... I don't think you'll find your answer in a more than 2 years old inactive thread. Perhaps you should try posting your question here: Dream Interpretation

Originally Posted by Box77

I don't get why necroposting in order to look for a dream intrerpretation... I don't think you'll find your answer in a more than 2 years old inactive thread. Perhaps you should try posting your question here: Dream Interpretation

I agree. Post moved to Dream Interpretation.

People mostly necro because they don't notice the date, or they are new to the site and don't know the best place to post. Thank you guys for pointing him to right direction.

*Closed*