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    Thread: Dream is separate reality?

    1. #1
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      Dream is separate reality?

      I remember most of dreams. Have for most of my life. So many of them have incredible detail. I can read things and sometimes get lucid. Last night I dreamed of flying and I took total control. i knew I was in the dream. I knew I could do anything so of course I flew around. this was amazing. i was reading details like never before. down to license plates on cars. I kept pushing myself to go higher so I can see the terrain. It was so real. It was NO place I have ever been. Mountains and lakes. i knew I would wake up and struggled to stay in but eventually couldn't hang in the reality any longer. What confuses me is the amount of detail and the time factor. I've read studies that say most dreams seems like a long time but are actually only minutes long. MINE ARE NOT. They are way too involved with incredible story lines (usually repeating about going back to school) I am slowly convincing myself this is another plane of existence, not the subconscious. The mind can't create that fast such detail and organized? conversations by OTHER PEOPLE you are overhearing. If I try writing a script with dialogue it takes forever to make it sound sensical yet somehow they make perfect sense without an uh or studders or any awkward long breaks.

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      There are theories that the dream world is the astral plane. There are also theories that the waking reality in which we live our daily lives is not what we think it is, that it is is more akin to living inside our own mind, or 'god's' mind (I don't like the term god, I prefer to use the term 'universe' to imply a godlike omnipresent source energy), and so the dream world is an extension of this, more real than is commonly believed, just as the 'real world' is less real.

      I have also enjoyed a rich, detailed, dream world with fantastic detail, emotional experiences and some cool lucid dreams that feel just as real as waking life. If our minds create those worlds in the blink of an eye, what's to say our minds aren't creating this one as well? I'm always fascinated by how solid objects can feel in lucid dreams, yet if I so choose I can walk right through them.

      I can remember up to 10 or 15 dreams a night (not every night, sometimes only one or two), all detailed, all seeming to take longer to dream than I have time in a night. For instance, I can go to work for the day in a 1 hour dream. I can induce lucidity in my daughter by waking her up and telling her I just had a lucid dream - she then goes back to sleep and has a lucid dream.
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    3. #3
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      Is there one thing humans are great at?
      The answer is yes, it's deluding themselves. We are masters at throwing away rationality whenever it plays against our wants, especially when it comes to the supernatural...

      From a logical standpoint there isn't anything in your OP that contradicts commons scientific knowledge on dreaming. We know that dreaming can perfectly simulate almost any sensation, a lot of the same mechanisms are activated during sleep as during walking life, especially sensori-motor ones. We also know that the brain works on assumptions. By using assumptions we can store a huge density of memories because they do not have to be concrete. This allows us to build such an expansive dream world while our brain has only a limited amount of processing power. We can simulate entire cities by building on memories that are roughly right and then convincing ourselves it is all super accurate. It also doesn't help that lucidity can fall into a huge range of awareness, there is never a guarantee that you are entirely focused in the dream, and there is certainly nothing stopping it from fluctuating.

      The differences between the dream world and the walking life are gigantic. There's a reason you get very little opportunity to reality checks, because this reality is being built on external stimuli. It's as easy as studying the brain for over a century and spotting the differences between brain chemistry during dreaming and walking life.
      To compare the concreteness of the walking world to the dream world is quite absurd. The real world has coordinates that always bring you to the right place, items and places that can stay the same for millennia. If you rigorously define a law it may accurately predict events up until 20 decimal places.

      None of that can be said of the dream world, it's always changing. There's very little concreteness and that which there is can be ascribed to our self delusion. Take away the concreteness and you likely just have a dreamer telling himself he's traveling to other planes, it's a lovely idea but nothing more than it and certainly has never been backed by any solid evidence.

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      Sometimes I hear someone telling me, that Lucid Dreaming doesn't exist, or I'm fibbing when describing it, or better yet, that I'm crazy. So I like to keep an open mind about other "crazy things" and I believe, that some dreams could be in our heads, some on the astral plain, and some experiences maybe some completely different place, we don't even have idea about just yet.

      Ofc, I could be wrong, haha.

      *Moved to General Dreaming subforum

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      Quote Originally Posted by gab View Post
      Sometimes I hear someone telling me, that Lucid Dreaming doesn't exist, or I'm fibbing when describing it, or better yet, that I'm crazy.
      Just tell them it's scientifically proven, can't argue with science

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      Dutchraptor made some excellent points. No matter how vivid a dream is, it's still a dream. Your brain is incredibly powerful. Contemplate for a moment, the fact that every single sight you've ever seen, sound you've ever heard, or scent you've ever smelled is in there. It's there. You can't recall it, but it's been stored somewhere. Your brain has the capacity to compile that information and compile them instantaneously. Because of this, the brain can accurately "predict" sensations you've never experienced by compiling "data" (schemata) from experiences you have had.

      The other thing to remember is that even if you experience lucidity in a dream, you are still in an altered state of consciousness. A pink elephant riding an electric scooter in New York may not seem out of place to you in a dream, even if you are completely lucid, because you're in an altered state of consciousness. In other words, you may think that you are experiencing something in particular in a dream, but it is BECAUSE you are/were in a dream that you found significance in it. The license plates you saw very clearly and it great detail- if you had attempted to read them several times, it is extremely unlikely that they would have remained the same- but it is quite likely that your mind thinks that they stayed the same, because you're dreaming, and in an altered state of consciousness. Basically, you cannot trust anything as "real" while in a lucid dream, or altered state of any kind. The "truth" will change depending on your subconscious (or conscious) desire for it to change, and you won't even necessarily recognize that that's what happened.

      I also disagreed with a few things from Dutchraptor. The first, being that he presumes rationality to be anything other than completely relative. Rationale is not universal, just like anything else. To criticize "throwing away rationale" is invalid, because rationale is relative.

      The second thing I disagree with- the proclamation that the waking world is "concrete" while the dream world is not. I think I know what you meant by that, and so I understand the point you were making- similar to the one I just made in the second paragraph. However, let's not pretend to know that anything is "concrete." The atom contains 99% emptiness that we can't measure yet, which means that 99% of the universe is just really tightly condensed less than a fraction of 1% of trillions to the trillions of atoms, and the other 99% we can't measure. We have learned so much though science that we're discovering how little we know. This lesson is important. No true scientist would write off anything as "impossible," but rather just state that something is "not proven/not provable by science."

      I know what you meant, and I agree with you- but I think it's important to maintain an attitude of wonder as opposed to one of "certainty" because truthfully, no one can be certain that they are absolutely right about anything. Remain curious! One cannot discover new truths if they deem them impossible. Be open to the fact that what you believe to be impossible may be possible. That goes for believers too! Be curious! Be open to the fact that what you believe may in fact be something else with a completely different explanation. Curiosity is the only path to innovation.

      Cheers
      Last edited by Rainman; 10-13-2014 at 10:08 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rainman View Post
      I also disagreed with a few things from Dutchraptor. The first, being that he presumes rationality to be anything other than completely relative. Rationale is not universal, just like anything else. To criticize "throwing away rationale" is invalid, because rationale is relative.
      Indeed, in fact this point is brought up in every single thread that debates a topic extensively. Whenever it is brought up such as now, it boils down to epistemological skepticism, the conclusion that we can actually have no certainty in any of our knowledge. Defining rationale as completely relative not only contradicts the essence of a debate, it makes it cumbersome too.
      However, to clarify. I meant rationality in the lightest sense possible, applying basic rules of logic.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rainman View Post
      The second thing I disagree with- the proclamation that the waking world is "concrete" while the dream world is not. I think I know what you meant by that, and so I understand the point you were making- similar to the one I just made in the second paragraph. However, let's not pretend to know that anything is "concrete." The atom contains 99% emptiness that we can't measure yet, which means that 99% of the universe is just really tightly condensed less than a fraction of 1% of trillions to the trillions of atoms, and the other 99% we can't measure. We have learned so much though science that we're discovering how little we know. This lesson is important. No true scientist would write off anything as "impossible," but rather just state that something is "not proven/not provable by science."
      I should have specified this. By concreteness I refer to reality remaining predictable on a day to day basis, in some cases for as long as the universe has existed.
      It's not so much a logical argument, like I outlined earlier, there really is nothing to contradict that the dream world may not be another world. This all leads to my final point which links back to my first...

      Quote Originally Posted by Rainman View Post
      I know what you meant, and I agree with you- but I think it's important to maintain an attitude of wonder as opposed to one of "certainty" because truthfully, no one can be certain that they are absolutely right about anything. Remain curious! One cannot discover new truths if they deem them impossible. Be open to the fact that what you believe to be impossible may be possible. That goes for believers too! Be curious! Be open to the fact that what you believe may in fact be something else with a completely different explanation. Curiosity is the only path to innovation.

      Cheers
      I totally agree. What I find disturbing is when people choose to view an event in a different light because they have a biased feeling towards it, which is what my post was arguing against. People like to have different rationales for different circumstances, on a day to day basis they trust the advances of science and the certainty it brings, but will dismiss logical conclusions when it comes to another situation. That lack of consistency is often what leads to these threads being created, there's nothing wrong per ce but it usually leads to an argument because the "rationale" of the OP has never been defined.
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    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor
      I should have specified this. By concreteness I refer to reality remaining predictable on a day to day basis, in some cases for as long as the universe has existed.
      It's not so much a logical argument, like I outlined earlier, there really is nothing to contradict that the dream world may not be another world. This all leads to my final point which links back to my first...]
      Yeah, I figured that's what you meant. I was being a tad nit picky, perhaps needlessly. I always just want to clarify a mindset of openness... and I don't mean "open-minded" the way that mystics and such use it, because there is a common tendency to say "well, you can't disprove it, so it must be real!" But I mean openness as in curiosity, which you seem to grasp quite well anyway.

      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor
      I totally agree. What I find disturbing is when people choose to view an event in a different light because they have a biased feeling towards it, which is what my post was arguing against. People like to have different rationales for different circumstances, on a day to day basis they trust the advances of science and the certainty it brings, but will dismiss logical conclusions when it comes to another situation. That lack of consistency is often what leads to these threads being created, there's nothing wrong per ce but it usually leads to an argument because the "rationale" of the OP has never been defined.
      Yes, yes, yes! I think we are saying the same things in different ways at this point, and I'm very glad you mentioned this. A lot of people have things that they believe, and allow their bias toward their belief to inhibit more logical explanations for whatever is occurring. It's difficult to remain as objective as possible, and I respect people who can! Thanks for your thoughts!

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      Consciousness isn't completely scientifically explained at this point. Even the studies saying that consciousness is generated by our bodies, and not apart from it, are tenuous at best. So to the poster saying that people are deluding themselves, I believe that you are closing yourself off to many interesting dream and perceptional experiences by having such a limited opinion and view. You are entitled to it, but it is limiting, especially the fact that you've taken to trying to tell others how specifically they are deluding themselves. Your logic isn't even applicable to things that pertain to a world and system that has no logic that can be fully understood by human beings. That is how humans delude themselves, trying to apply logic to things that intuitively exist without our assistance of scientific dogmas. I call them dogmas because of how people conduct themselves trying to explain them.

      Anyway, dreams are another system of reality. There are many different systems of reality, all of them as valid as ours. A lot of them would make no sense to us at the present. The astral realm is one of them. You can visit it in your dreams, but you are not too far from home so to speak when you usually dream. Even if you do not remember your dreams, you do dream. Dreams generate probabilities, and allow us to work through possible outcomes, let us connect with other forms of consciousness, both human and otherwise, help us learn, etc. It is another reality you are living in. We are both asleep and awake on both sides. It is as real as this reality, it just isn't solid. We use dreams to physically manifest things into our non-dream world. The same goes for the dream world- our world generates things over there. There are many probable selves, and for most of them we have dreams of their experiences. Time only exists as a psychological function in order for us to progress and process information on this level of reality- and so in dreams, it does not exist, which explains premonitions. It is absolutely another plane of existence that we have created. I believe that this physical world sprouted from the dream world.

      Yes, this may be biased, but some things you intuitively understand. What is our opinion but biased, what is experience but subjective. Even the best scientists of our time created from hunches and extremely subjective information. We just do not have the system to prove this scientifically at the moment. String theory is becoming close, if they can come out with better experiments, but I do not believe we have any kind of rational system to explain this yet, something seemingly illogical to scientists.

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      The astral plane/spiritual realm is VERY real. We call it the Duat/Tuat. Ancient Kemet and it's mythology is the system we will use to astral project and explore the spiritual realm
      <Link Removed> - My website/tumblelog

      “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

    11. #11
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      Moonlit, I know where you're coming from, and I understand where dutchraptor is coming from as well. If you read his replies, I don't think he meant to imply delusion in the same way that I think you think he meant it.

      Scientific reasoning is a gift and a curse- as I mentioned before, we have learned so many things that we have discovered how little we've learned. The more we learn, the more we discover how little we know. With that said, the reason people tend to rely more on science as a more sturdy approach, is because it can be used to make *accurate predictions* about things that are not yet scientifically proven, that often are proven later. There is a consistency to science that does not yet exist in any other system of reality.

      Other systems of reality exist, of course. There are an infinite number of phenomena that we cannot yet explain- but there are things that we CAN predict as PROBABLY the right explanation using science based on what we already know. That doesn't mean the phenomena aren't happening, it means that they may be happening in a different way than one thinks. I think that dutchraptor was saying that we delude ourselves by choosing not to objectively put our own beliefs under scrutiny and try to objectively consider all possibilities.

      What the theories in other systems of reality lack is consistency, which is why I tend to rely more on scientific principals than non-scientific principals even though I believe in many many things that are not yet scientifically proven. In the same way that people insist that astral projection is "real" (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, by the way) I could write a book about "soul reading" where you can meditate into a deep trance, select a person and you can read their soul. I just made that up. I would give very thorough and convincing detailed explanations as to how this is done, and if anyone tried to disprove it, I would have an explanation for that too. The problem is, this book, like many other books, would make very specific unprovable claims and state them as absolute fact. This is deluded in my opinion. It's just as deluded as an atheist, non-believing scientist saying that it is all impossible. Both sides are so caught up with "knowing the truth" and being so certain that they both often forget to be curious and open. We're so arrogant sometimes...

      What I'm saying is, if you have a theory about something; lets say, "my dream is actually a separate reality" and there is already potentially a perfectly viable scientific explanation for it, (you are dreaming, your consciousness is altered, you are asleep, all of this is measurable and repeatable) then it is simply more likely that the scientific explanation is the one you can rely on. Is it 100% certain that this is true? Of course not, nothing is. But it's the more likely explanation because of its consistency and organization as opposed to making blind claims and accepting them as fact despite the fact that they have never been successfully performed as intended in a controlled environment. Does this mean it's not real? No way! Of course it's real! All of this is real! Everything you experience IS HAPPENING for real. It's just probably not happening in the WAY that you may think it's happening. (Your dream being a separate reality is subject to interpretation- but it's certainly more logical to conclude that it's all happening in your mind, and not in a way that can interact with other living conscious beings- I'm not saying it's not possible; I believe anything is possible. I'm saying there's a much more likely explanation.)

      Being open to that understanding is just as important as a scientist being open to the understanding that they may be absolutely wrong as well, and being open to the fact that there are indeed different systems of reality. Both ends of the spectrum here need to understand the other side, and both need to understand that their way is not necessarily the right way. The only right way is to keep wondering until a discovery is made. All I'm saying is that science is the only method that has ever created a system to check and verify and repeat those discoveries until they can be stated as "true" (even though nothing is necessarily universally true, as we know.) I think it is arrogant to claim anything as absolutely true, or absolutely false.

      Sorry this was long winded.

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      I just don't think, when approaching something as personal as dream interpretation, or dreaming in general, the world "delusional" should be used at all. I read what he said, and I still stand by what I said.

      Everything is operating from your mind. Your senses are generated by your mind. We also have senses that are not focused in the dimension we physically reside in. Dreams are one of the simplest ways to understand this.

      Good points, but it seems to me that the idea of separate realities makes you uncomfortable. I gave up worrying about what is "right or wrong" a long time ago. Thinking about what is "provable" (even though it may not be yet) held me back from a lot of interesting psychic and dream phenomena. Soul reading is a thing, there are records you can access where every thought vibration is kept in the mind of the universe. Also, the very act of thinking something creates it, so your specific "soul reading" could be real, if you invented it. Think about it- what is this plane we are on? How is any action, any feeling, any object, created? What are we? And then, consider how you control the dream world. Think of the differences between the "dream" world and this world, putting aside any kind of scientific reasoning, and just going with where it takes you.

      And no. Dreams have been studied for thousands of years by people who were/are mediums, psychics, channellers, mystics, you name it, and they all have one underlying theme- that that world is as real as ours is. But they don't have a degree in science, so who cares what they have to say, even though they have a connection most people would be terrified of and confused by.

      And yeah, like I said at the end of my post, science is close but not quite yet.
      Last edited by moonlit; 10-14-2014 at 10:01 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit View Post



      Good points, but it seems to me that the idea of separate realities makes you uncomfortable. I gave up worrying about what is "right or wrong" a long time ago. Thinking about what is "provable" (even though it may not be yet) held me back from a lot of interesting psychic and dream phenomena. Soul reading is a thing, there are records you can access where every thought vibration is kept in the mind of the universe. Also, the very act of thinking something creates it, so your specific "soul reading" could be real, if you invented it. Think about it- what is this plane we are on? How is any action, any feeling, any object, created? What are we? And then, consider how you control the dream world. Think of the differences between the "dream" world and this world, putting aside any kind of scientific reasoning, and just going with where it takes you.
      The problem here is that this is not the way you would react if I ran up to you in the middle of the street yelling you've won 80 trillion dollars. You'd be skeptic to some degree, just as we are skeptic of what you are trying to tell us about. The world must be built on some valid predictable statements to live day to day, it is only reasonable to assume that you would provide some evidence to the claims you are making.

      There is nothing unscientific about experimenting in interesting psychic and dream phenomenon, in fact it is encouraged. Science however will not claim that there is a high probability of their existence if there is no evidence to back them up.

      This system is extremely useful for transferring knowledge, that's why it is so popular. Unlike any other system you will know that the knowledge received is usable without having to test it yourself first.

      As for the rest, agree to disagree, rainman lays it all out beautifully.
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      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      Good points, but it seems to me that the idea of separate realities makes you uncomfortable.
      If this is directed at me, it's evident to me that you either literally didn't actually read what I wrote, but skimmed over it, or you severely misunderstood literally every point I was making. Don't make assertions about what makes me "uncomfortable." I'm not making assumptions about you as a person, I'd appreciate it if you didn't sink to that level either; it's untrue and irrelevant, as that statement in no way contributed to the discussion.

      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      We also have senses that are not focused in the dimension we physically reside in. Dreams are one of the simplest ways to understand this.
      This is an example of what I mean. What does that even mean? Where did you get that information? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or snarky, I really am asking sincerely. It really just sounds like a statement you've pulled out of thin air, and are saying that it is inherently true simply because you've said it. I am not disagreeing with you I'm simply asking how you came to that conclusion.

      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      And no. Dreams have been studied for thousands of years by people who were/are mediums, psychics, channellers, mystics, you name it, and they all have one underlying theme- that that world is as real as ours is. But they don't have a degree in science, so who cares what they have to say, even though they have a connection most people would be terrified of and confused by.
      What is your definition of "study?" I don't have a science degree either, don't be dramatic. In no place have I said that the dream world isn't real. I said it's happening in your head, which is true. It's entirely real, obviously, you're experiencing it. Just because it's in one's head doesn't make it not real... I think we are saying the same thing in different ways here.

      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      Soul reading is a thing, there are records you can access where every thought vibration is kept in the mind of the universe.
      Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Akashic records, I've written on them dozens of times in several dozen threads on this forum, several years ago. For reasons that I'm certain are different from yours, I also believe that every thought ever exists somewhere as well.

      My question is, if it is possible to access every thought or even that ever occurred, tell me what song was stuck in my head yesterday at 12 noon. I am fairly sure you won't be able to, and that you'll have some sort of convenient explanation as to why you can't. I'm not saying that is impossible, and I'm not saying if something unexplained doesn't follow science it is wrong or doesn't exist. I am saying that science aims to recreate circumstances in a controlled environment to see if they are happening the way we think they are happening.

      I understand that there are other systems of reality, I have not disagreed with you about that point. I am saying that within this one, there are already repeatable, reproducible, measurable explanations for things that many people experience, and that what little we know about other systems of reality are usually inconsistent with themselves, and involve some sort of very elaborate and 100% theoretical explanation for it. Occam's Razor.

      Science isn't always the answer, but logic can be applied anywhere. If I say that "all red cars are red cars, and therefore red cars are red cars" then that is a true statement, regardless of how you apply it. It provides its own context based on very fundamental things that we know, and then uses it's own context to make a statement that is inherently true. Although it provides its own context to create a true statement, it is still based on things we already know: Colors, universally quantifying statements, and "if, then" statements. The only outside knowledge in the statement is the definition of parameters. Everything else is provided by the statement itself, and is not based on anything in order to determine its validity.

      I hope I didn't lose you there, but science is similar to this example in the sense that it takes parameters that we already know, and applies them to things that we don't know to learn about them. It can make estimates based on knowledge, and is often wrong, but it reveals when its wrong on its own. Even though it is a system, its a system that checks itself and remains OPEN. Saying "I believe something, therefore it must be true" is the literal opposite of "open-mindedness."

      I started as a firm believer in any phenomena I told existed, and then I learned to question EVERYTHING, even my own beliefs, and even learned to question the questioning of my beliefs. I am not arguing against the existence of things, nor am I arguing for them. I AM arguing that scrutiny, openness and curiosity are the only "correct" approaches to anything. That is my point! I am also not saying that science has the answers; it does not yet. I AM saying that science provides a way to organize what we DO know and combine that with what we DON'T know to create its theories, instead of just trying to explain everything with magic. Even the unknowns in science are based on theories that are known, can be reproduced, repeated, and measured. Astral projection and related phenomena is based on theories that are based on theories that are based on theories, none of which is reproducible, repeatable, or measurable.

      THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S WRONG, OR NOT REAL, I have never said that I don't believe that it's possible, and that's my point. You insist that it must be, and I am neither saying it definitely isn't, nor that it definitely is. THAT is what I'm saying is the approach to take with these sorts of ideas. Anyway, I tend to ramble, sorry about that. I hope you see what I'm saying.


      EDIT- added:
      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      Also, the very act of thinking something creates it, so your specific "soul reading" could be real, if you invented it.
      Interesting that you mention this. I believe this as well, but I believe that within the context of consciousness, the majority of a consciousness in a body of consciousness must believe something in order for it to manifest- if there is a majority of consciousness which conflicts with a thought, I believe that the conflict interferes with it; speaking strictly within the context of consciousness- a different system of reality that I believe in, which cannot yet fully be merged with science. I acknowledge that I could be very wrong about that, it's just what I believe based on what I know. See how that works?
      Last edited by Rainman; 10-15-2014 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Paragraph gaps, minor revisions, clarifications, etc

    15. #15
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      I did not mean it that way. No need to become so defensive. Things like this do make people apprehensive and quick to jump to what they call their system of logic which was what I felt from your posts. You are rude and condescending and that promotes no growth when others are just asking questions and trying to learn more, without others speaking down to them and acting like they couldn't possibly understand. That is extremely arrogant and I am disappointed to see that on this board.

      There are ways to explain what you're trying to express here, which I understand what you mean. However, I do not feel like sharing when people are simply becoming defensive, unwilling to go out on a limb, and choose to remain in the same logic. There are ways to explain these things that make perfect sense intuitively. But like I said, you are condescending and speaking to me as if there is no possible way that I could understand what I'm talking about- although I see your point and view and just feel sad that you think I can't. For the record, I know how science and logic work, but it seems everything I'm saying is completely lost on you, since you are determined on driving what science and logic "are" into my head. Lol.
      This may sound a bit rude but you have been rude, trying to insult my intelligence.
      I never implied you were right or wrong, because I do not think like that. You are applying imaginary things to what I've said, which is illogical.

      The world is a lot nicer place when you just let all of those things go. Right and wrong, proof and no proof, it is about your own subjective experience. One day you will die and may be sorry for all the time you wasted listening to what other people say should be expected in your perception. In my own subjective experience, all of these things are very real. However, my comments about the other systems of reality and how reality works, that is the truth, and one day we will be able to prove that. Also, if I may suggest, you speak rudely, and are indeed snarky. You seem aware of this. You should not be trying to piss people off when we're just having a discussion over something extremely subjective. That is inconsiderate, and shuts others down when they may want to express something interesting or personal. I realize that this is the internet, but why pick apart someones subjective opinions, to hammer in the feeling of you being right? I will no longer be replying to this thread.
      Last edited by moonlit; 10-15-2014 at 05:09 PM.

    16. #16
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      He tried to argue his case, and he did in an extremely detailed fashion for your benefit.

      By not explaining what he said that was rude, or why we're wrong there's no argument to be had. you are the one calling us close minded, but as soon as you have been called out you resort to derailing the conversation.

      Explain what makes your method of thinking more favorable than ours and we can consider it. We should we not listen "what other people say" but we should to you?
      Without an argument to back up your case, you are the only one cutting off the discussion.
      Rainman likes this.

    17. #17
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      Moonlit, I was sincerely not trying to be snarky or condescending. I think you are misinterpreting an argument against what you believe as an assault on your ideals. This is not the case. I am sorry if you feel that I was being rude, but I don't think that I was, and others would likely agree. I think you are taking what I said defensively because they challenge your ideas. I'm not talking down to you, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. I literally spent 50% of the post trying to explain to you that I AGREE with the things you believe in, I'm just saying that there needs to be some sort of explanation for those ideas.

      Again, I don't think you actually read most of what I wrote. I wrote in an extremely accommodating and apologetic way, and tried to be as gentle as possible. I think you misunderstood that as sarcasm. I was not being sarcastic, I meant the things that I said sincerely. I think everyone here will agree that I was not being rude nor condescending to you, I'm sincerely sorry if you felt that way. Sometimes communicating over text is confusing, because we can't really tell what the intent behind the writing is.

      I was severely irritated at your assumptions about my mood, or making assumptions about how I "waste my time listening to what other people say" given that that's literally not what I said, nor implied that I do in any part of my post. So in the first paragraph, I was defensive. From that point on, completely neutral in every sense of the word. I literally said the opposite of that several times. Please re-read my posts. Also, apart from the very first paragraph, literally -not a single thing- I said was defensive. I spent a MAJORITY of the post AGREEING with your beliefs, or ASKING how you got those conclusions. I'm very confused as to how you found that to be rude. Please tell me what parts of what I said you thought were rude and condescending, and I'll do my best to explain what I meant.

      Disagreeing with someone in an organized, difficult to refute way might be frustrating for the other person, but that doesn't mean the first person was being rude.
      Quote Originally Posted by moonlit
      However, I do not feel like sharing when people are simply becoming defensive, unwilling to go out on a limb, and choose to remain in the same logic.
      All of that is *literally* the opposite of what I did in that entire post.

      EDIT: Added section-
      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor
      you are the one calling us close minded, but as soon as you have been called out you resort to derailing the conversation.
      THIS! Moonlit, I acknowledged your points, and even said that I don't disagree with you, I just asked for you to explain the basis for your reasoning them. I'll even go further- I actually believe in many of the scientifically far fetched things you mentioned myself; my only argument is that I believe that those things are possible, and my beliefs are based on scientific research, and that science is a more reliable self-checking system than just saying something is true because I said it's true.

      Everything I wrote, I even explained very thoroughly that I AM open minded to all possibility. The closed-minded one is the one who tries to change the subject without addressing any of the challenges to their beliefs, derailing the conversation by saying "you're being condescending and rude" when that is the opposite of the what actually happened. Please point out to me in my previous post where I was "rude and condescending." Where did I insult your intelligence? Does trying to explain my point of view offend you? Isn't that what we are all here to do? I guarantee you, most people here would not consider what I wrote rude or insulting in any way. If you don't believe me, have a moderator review what I wrote.

      I spent literally the entire post explaining that I AGREE or at least do not disagree with many of your beliefs. It's literally like you didn't even read what I wrote! So frustrating! I was not rude to you at all. Everything you accused me of in the previous post is the complete opposite of what I actually wrote.

      What you just did in your most recent post- THAT is being defensive. Completely derailing the conversation so that you don't have to actually come up with an actual response, and then having the audacity to accuse ME of being defensive lol. Literally your entire response just now was defensive, and you managed to not answer a single question I posed, and instead of even trying, you again make a character attack; a personal accusation which has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Don't change the subject just because you can't think up any answers my questions. <--- that was me being aggressive. The extremely cordial, friendly passive reply that I made before was not... at all.

      Moonlit- no one is judging you for believing certain things. Please understand that. I am not attacking you as a person, I'm asking you to look at your ideas and be open to the fact that they could be wrong- just like I have. I have many theories too, many of which cannot be validated by science. I STILL HAVE those beliefs, but if science nullifies them in the future, or other explanations for what I believe in are discovered, I will have to accept them. I'm very sorry that you took offense to what I wrote. I hope you understand this was not an attack at YOU, just a critique of your beliefs. That's called... having a debate. If having someone disagree with you is what you consider being rude and condescending, you probably shouldn't be here, because that's what we do here. We debate. People are going to disagree with you sometimes. What I did was debate my position *without insulting you* and you took offense to it. That's on you. Can we continue the discussion now?
      Last edited by Rainman; 10-16-2014 at 03:38 AM.

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