Questions about REM cycles: when / why do they reset, how long can they last

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09-29-2021, 10:15 PM
RaveCrazedDave

Questions about REM cycles: when / why do they reset, how long can they last

Hello.

Pretty much my whole knowledge of dreaming and REM cycles comes from reading "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen LaBerge, but I have some questions which aren't really answered in the book:

We know our REM cycles get closer and longer throughout the night. However, we also know that if we wake up, and then go back to bed a few hours later, this pattern is continued as well, to the point where sleeping 8 hours or 4 and then being awake for 2 and then sleeping another 2 hours gives you very similar REM times (this is actually one of the techniques described by him for people who don't have 8 hours to sleep). I've even noticed this when taking naps during the afternoon, where I often get massive dreams, and this happens after being 4-5 hours awake. My question is, when and why does this REM timer "reset"? Would it be possible to find a sleep schedule which would perpetuate this "late night REM stage", for instance?

The second question is how long can REM cycles realistically take. The book mentions 45m-1h, but some of the dreams described in the book look like they would take much longer than that. I'm talking content wise, not just time frame, I know a dream can feel like it lasted a week, and that's not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to dreams where what's described simply takes a ton of time to actually happen. I know sometimes it's easy to get back into the same dream after you wake up from it, but I'm curious if that's it, or if I'm missing something.

Lastly, are there any other books about the subject of dreams or sleep that may be worth checking out? Dreams didn't really evolve since Stephen wrote the book, of course, but I feel some things are just left unexplained.

Thanks in advance.
09-30-2021, 02:24 AM
IndigoRose

You are asking some very hard questions.

You are missing one big fact - it is possible to also dream in NREM. NREM dreams in the first half of the night, when slow waves are more common, are usually thought-like and different from REM dreams. But later, closer to the morning, they can get more REM-like and indistinguishable from REM dreams. The timing for this somewhat correlates with peak REM time.
There is an ongoing debate (competing theories) in cognitive neuroscience on what triggers/controls dreaming. The timing and the "reset" you are asking about basically depends on your circadian rhythm and/or on your usual sleep schedule. The exact mechanisms are complicated and not all of them are understood fully.

I only know this because I read several research papers on NREM dreaming and consciousness in sleep recently and I am not really sure I understand what I said above correctly. If you want, I can give you some tips for research, but even this will take me some time (and I know roughly where to start).
The question is - do you really want to go that deep? Do you plan to use it in any way?

That being said, lucid dreaming in NREM is slightly controversial but I think science is just behind.

The length of the longest REM period is going to be individual. According to my Fitbit sleep tracker, my longest REM is rarely above 40m (usually closer to 30m). Theoretically, it can be even longer than 1h but I don't know how common it is.

I also have my doubts about the dreams described in ETWOLD. Although I don't think the length would be a problem for most of them, it is possible to do a lot in 30 minutes. Some dreams could be continued over several REM periods.

The last thing I want to say: Dreams didn't really evolve since LaBerge wrote the book but the scientific research on dreaming evolved a lot in that time. But there is still more unknown than known... at least I feel that way.
10-01-2021, 11:01 PM
RaveCrazedDave

Thank you for the detailed response!

You're right, I never really considered non-rem dreaming to be a thing. This would maybe be something interesting to look into in the future, but for now my focus is on REM dreaming. That being said, being lucid in that state sounds like an existential wild ride.

Quote:

I also have my doubts about the dreams described in ETWOLD.

What about them do you find doubtful? I'm sure they're a little embelished, is that what you mean?

Quote:

my longest REM is rarely above 40m (usually closer to 30m).

How long do you usually sleep for?

Quote:

The last thing I want to say: Dreams didn't really evolve since LaBerge wrote the book but the scientific research on dreaming evolved a lot in that time.

This is why I am looking for more recent literature on the subject, because even though I like the book and I feel like it's a solid basis for the lucid dreaming side of things, it does feel a bit dated on the actual sleep science department. Maybe I should do what you do, and just start reading research papers, or maybe it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.