I am not all that familiar with the intricate regions of the brain. I do know the major regions I think.
The brainstemthe, diencephalon, cerebellum and the cerebrum.
But I am curious to know where that subconscious is suppose to be in your brain.
:P
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I am not all that familiar with the intricate regions of the brain. I do know the major regions I think.
The brainstemthe, diencephalon, cerebellum and the cerebrum.
But I am curious to know where that subconscious is suppose to be in your brain.
:P
I dont believe there is a processor in the brain called the subconscious.
Perhaps if you wanted one, you could call it wherever the long-term memories are stored?
Actually thats a big controversy. I mean the minds location. Nobody can prove where memory, or anything is, only its output and input of it.
My personal philosophy is that the mind doesn't have origin in the brain, the brain is simply a physical display of the mind in action.
It just doesn't make sense to me that such funtions as 100% perfect memory(for those who have photographic memories) can reside in a defined amount of space. Nor that the brain could create a whole alternate universe reality, when having only so many parts active... and an X-box with just as much transisters can only create a 3D world on a flat screen.
Simply said, the mind as a whole does not equal the sums of it's parts (the brain).
However thats just my opinion, i'm just saying they haven't proven where anythign is in the brain, only its output and input.
The subconscious is actually a huge catagory of things. The conscious mind and subconscious mind are not seperate they are one in the same, we only seperate them for clarity of function. It would be like dividing the color blue into different shades, not like having two different colors completely.
Hope that helps,
-Daniel
Thank you both for your replies. It is just so odd to know something is there yet not know where it is. Or at least we lable it to be there.
Syntex. Never had I thought down those lines. Great theory!
Having you said that you would think they would work in concert with one another better than they do.Quote:
Originally posted by Syntex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Syntex)</div>And that it does not make sense for it to reside in a defined amount of space!! :idea: > Could this give rise to more probabilty of an astral plane or dream sharing :?:Quote:
Simply said, the mind as a whole does not equal the sums of it's parts (the brain). [/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-syntex
The subconscious is actually a huge catagory of things. The conscious mind and subconscious mind are not seperate they are one in the same, we only seperate them for clarity of function. It would be like dividing the color blue into different shades, not like having two different colors completely.
Or more likely they can and we don't know how to harness that ability.
I have this in my profile. By Robert Monroe. How true it is.
Quote:
To consider consciousness by itself is entirely undemanding. There is nothing to describe. An attempt to account for it in context, however, forces the construction of ever shifting, elaborate adventures of thought.[/b]
EXACTLY :-P
Just some information I looked up on the subconscious.
The Subconscious Mind
The subconscious mind takes up the remaining 88% of our brain's capacity, and could be compared to a massive computer system that stores all of the information regarding our location, situation, feelings etc.
It controls our Autonomic Nervous System such as our heart beat, breathing, organs and glands - in other words all of the things we do not have to think about.
The subconscious mind has no reasoning power, and cannot reject anything that it is told.
The subconscious mind has a perfect memory. In fact if you were to merely glance at the face of a passer by in a crowd, your subconscious mind would be able to recall every detail regarding that person such as his clothes, facial lines or wrinkles, everything that you saw. You may have to do some searching to find this information, but be assured that it would be there, even years later. Many Police Forces now use hypnotism to bring these memories to the forefront of a witness's mind.
As mentioned earlier, the conscious mind constantly refers to it's counterpart for information. When a person is writing a word on a piece of paper, the subconscious mind will attempt to locate the correct spelling and then pass that information to the conscious mind so that it can instruct the muscles in the hand to act accordingly.
If a child constantly misspells a certain word, it is likely that, as the child grows older, the incorrect spelling will always be used. This is because the subconscious mind has recorded the incorrectly spelt word and has no way of knowing that it has been misinformed.
In effect, the subconscious mind is like a computer program that runs our body for us. It never sleeps and will continue to runs it's program, such as digesting food, maintaining the body, healing cuts and bruises etc.
Whilst in a trance state, the subconscious mind will accept any suggestion it receives without question. It must be remembered however that is a suggestion is not conducive with the moral code of the subconscious, or if it is perceived as a threat, then there is a likelihood that the conscious mind will reawaken to analyse the situation accordingly.
Is there any reason why we cannot not instantly recall any of this information at will? It would be extremely interesting if possible (even at minute levels)...
In my opinion since the subconcious mind has perfect memory it has no constant size. It's size = X. This is because infinitual information can be put in it.
I believe the main reason we don't remember as much as we should is for two reasons. First off, ever since we were born we've pretty much been taught that the only way to remember something is to repeat it over several times. We've been told that we forget things, and so we do. Basically social conditioning has caused us a big problem, in that it teaches us that our memory is physical in the brain and therefore decays with time.
Secondly, There little output for the mind to show you memories. Unless we were able to reExperience the memory by hallucinating or dreaming or otherwise, it's hard for the subconscous mind trying to show you a memory, when you can't see it or hear it... or can but very fantly. Much like having a computer with a very poorly light monitor that can't display or sound out information on file.
Anyone of us could have perfect memory if we could enable a feedback system and remove all the years of conditioning telling us that we can't remember and trying to undo all those bad habits of forgetting.
NOT EASY... but if you could just fix one of those, you'd be able to remember anything you wanted.
-Daniel
I think Syntex has given a preety sound reason for that! Thanks!Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin
Is there any reason why we cannot not instantly recall any of this information at will? It would be extremely interesting if possible (even at minute levels)...
I have always been facinated (or envious) of people who have a Photographic memory.
Now how did that come about? Personaly I doubt that has to do with social condition in that case.
http://img166.exs.cx/img166/8051/brain5pz.jpg
(approximately)
Actually, Syntax, the brain is a lot more complex and intricate than any machine or computer we can construct at present. There are literally billions of neurons in our brain (IIRC), they're naturally more efficient at transferring information, and as to the supposedly small size of the brain - its curves greatly increase its surface area, and thus probably it capacity to store information. So our brain has enough place to store our personality and sunconsciousness, more than enough actually, since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC).
I also disagree with you on the topic of memory - it can't be social conditioning that causes it. There are people with photographic memory out there. How come they exist? Furthermore, why aren't there any speculations on this matter within the scientific community? Anyway, the real reason, IMHO, is that our conscious mind has limited "processing power" - we would be overwhelmed if every single image we saw, sound we heard, feelings etc. were stored in the conscious rather than the subconscious mind, research shows that the efficiency of the brain sharply decreases if a person is doing two tasks simultaneously, what would've happened if we had to hold thousands or millions of impressions at the same time? As to why can't we acess the subconscious at will - it's a defensive mechanism. The subconscious usually contains contens that are harmful and unpleasant to the individual.
As to the topic itself, I doubt that subconsciousness has some kind of specifically defined physical location in the brain. It's not something as functional or as sharply defined as vision or coordination - it's only a facet of our personality, which is the conglomeration of all the information we absorb since birth (plus a little bit of genetics). So no, it won't be as easy to point out. I'd say the pic Kaniaz posted is right on the spot.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by Wicked
since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC).
I checked it out, and it appears you are right. I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Wicked
Wrong.[/b]Quote:
since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC).
You guys are thinking about this the wrong way.
The brain is not a tool to be used, the brain uses you as a tool.
I got my results back showing actual results of my brain.Quote:
http://img69.exs.cx/img69/1935/peabrain8sk.th.gif
[quote]
It just doesn't make sense to me that such funtions as 100% perfect memory(for those who have photographic memories) can reside in a defined amount of space. Nor that the brain could create a whole alternate universe reality, when having only so many parts active... and an X-box with just as much transisters can only create a 3D world on a flat screen.
One theory is that our neurons fire electrical messages at each other and the interference pattern sets up a holographic memory. Holographs have an amazing capacity to store information. The slightest change in an angle at which the neurons hit each other allows a totally different memory to be created.
Actually it's SyntEx, but thanks for the counter arguement, which leads me to my next points. Your right, the brain has trillions of trillions of connections, and yes it can store large amounts of memory. My problem with this is exactly this, if we can argue that one thing may not have physical placement in the mind, such as consciousness or the unproved ability of Mutual Dreaming, then the whole mind and all it's functions lose physical origin. For instance, if it's true that we have a soul, then it can be equally true that that soul contains our mind and thereby contaning our memories.Quote:
Originally posted by Wicked
Actually, Syntax, the brain is a lot more complex and intricate than any machine or computer we can construct at present. There are literally billions of neurons in our brain (IIRC), they're naturally more efficient at transferring information, and as to the supposedly small size of the brain - its curves greatly increase its surface area, and thus probably it capacity to store information. So our brain has enough place to store our personality and sunconsciousness, more than enough actually, since we use only 10% of our brain's capacity (IIRC).
I also disagree with you on the topic of memory - it can't be social conditioning that causes it. There are people with photographic memory out there. How come they exist? Furthermore, why aren't there any speculations on this matter within the scientific community? Anyway, the real reason, IMHO, is that our conscious mind has limited \"processing power\" - we would be overwhelmed if every single image we saw, sound we heard, feelings etc. were stored in the conscious rather than the subconscious mind, research shows that the efficiency of the brain sharply decreases if a person is doing two tasks simultaneously, what would've happened if we had to hold thousands or millions of impressions at the same time? As to why can't we acess the subconscious at will - it's a defensive mechanism. The subconscious usually contains contens that are harmful and unpleasant to the individual.
As to the topic itself, I doubt that subconsciousness has some kind of specifically defined physical location in the brain. It's not something as functional or as sharply defined as vision or coordination - it's only a facet of our personality, which is the conglomeration of all the information we absorb since birth (plus a little bit of genetics). So no, it won't be as easy to point out. I'd say the pic Kaniaz posted is right on the spot.
I know for sure they haven't defined or located or even been able to explain consciousness in physical terms, it's an anomoly.
As for you second statement of those with photographic memories. I love that point, since they prove that we humans have the capacity to all do that. You are forgeting that along with social conditioning I stated if you have a good system of getting your subconscious to display things to you, you can easily "see" or access that memory. I'm suggesting that photographic memory people simply have a hightened visualization system, to be able to actually see their memories. Social conditioning is an obvious reason for forgetting stuff, it simply has to be a factor for some of us. Because by mere suggestion, you can cause yourself to forget things, hence hypnotists who tell you to forget everything when you wake up.
Thirdly you say that the conscious mind would be overwhelmed, well your right since the conscious mind doesn't remember anything at all, it can't remember what happened two seconds ago, it always has to go to the sea of unconsciousness to recall something. All it has is active memory, which we're experiencing right now. Thats not a limitation however since we can experience an entire reality around us. The conscious mind can recall any memory without failing to load it, because it was able to fully experience it before. And yes your right, some memories aren't accessable because of a defense mechanism... we're simpy to afraid or shocked by that experience to want to know it consciously again. And yes your right, the conscious mind deteriates when more tasks are given to it simulaniously, but thats what the subconscious mind is for, simply program it to do that task automatically and the conscious effort can go elsewhere.
Lastly, I agree with your last statement, yes the subsconsious is most likely not located in one point of mind or brain, but a multitude of social programming, personality, and sure maybe even genetics. It's a big thing, and its definantly not as easy as saying it's here and here, but more likely it's all of this and all of this and some of this.
Also Tron, how would we know a blank area (hence empty space) from an actual memory, how would that be marked?
-Daniel
Exactly. IF there is a soul, IF out of body experiences are real, IF shared dreams are possible. Can you say with any degree of certainty they are?Quote:
Actually it's SyntEx, but thanks for the counter arguement, which leads me to my next points. Your right, the brain has trillions of trillions of connections, and yes it can store large amounts of memory. My problem with this is exactly this, if we can argue that one thing may not have physical placement in the mind, such as consciousness or the unproved ability of Mutual Dreaming, then the whole mind and all it's functions lose physical origin. For instance, if it's true that we have a soul, then it can be equally true that that soul contains our mind and thereby contaning our memories.
I know for sure they haven't defined or located or even been able to explain consciousness in physical terms, it's an anomoly. [/b]
That might be a possibility, but social conditioning probably doesn't play such a huge role like you implied in your post. Is it possible to TEACH someone how to use photographic memory? If it's possible to condition people to change their habits, in some cases even their personality, opinions, beliefs (brainwashing), then it shows social conditioning from young age can be \"re-programmed\", so to speak. I never heard it's possible to teach someone photographic memory, although it's possible to acess sunconscious images by using hypnosis.Quote:
As for you second statement of those with photographic memories. I love that point, since they prove that we humans have the capacity to all do that. You are forgeting that along with social conditioning I stated if you have a good system of getting your subconscious to display things to you, you can easily \"see\" or access that memory. I'm suggesting that photographic memory people simply have a hightened visualization system, to be able to actually see their memories. Social conditioning is an obvious reason for forgetting stuff, it simply has to be a factor for some of us. Because by mere suggestion, you can cause yourself to forget things, hence hypnotists who tell you to forget everything when you wake up.[/b]
Actually, there are THREE levels of Freudian consciousness - the conscious, the near-conscious, and the subconscious. Memories are located in the near-conscious, a level which can be acessed by our conscious at any given time while the subconscious can not.Quote:
Thirdly you say that the conscious mind would be overwhelmed, well your right since the conscious mind doesn't remember anything at all, it can't remember what happened two seconds ago, it always has to go to the sea of unconsciousness to recall something. All it has is active memory, which we're experiencing right now. Thats not a limitation however since we can experience an entire reality around us. The conscious mind can recall any memory without failing to load it, because it was able to fully experience it before. And yes your right, some memories aren't accessable because of a defense mechanism... we're simpy to afraid or shocked by that experience to want to know it consciously again. And yes your right, the conscious mind deteriates when more tasks are given to it simulaniously, but thats what the subconscious mind is for, simply program it to do that task automatically and the conscious effort can go elsewhere. [/b]
Maybe with some special training it would be possible to acess our memories in the way you suggest. But I hold the opinion that in the absence of social conditioning either way, a human would still grow without the ability to acess his memories freely.
So we agree on that point, then. I think we disagree on another point though - I still think the subconsciousness (and personality, memories etc.) are located in our brain, they're just kind of the sum of various tiny parts scattered around the brain. You, so it seems, hold the opinion that the mind originates from a non-biological factor entirely.Quote:
Lastly, I agree with your last statement, yes the subsconsious is most likely not located in one point of mind or brain, but a multitude of social programming, personality, and sure maybe even genetics. It's a big thing, and its definantly not as easy as saying it's here and here, but more likely it's all of this and all of this and some of this.
-Daniel[/b]
I have a couple of things to add. But opon thinking about it I would rather watch from the sidelines. My Ideas are knowhere as deep as to where the discussion is now.
A lot of good points!!!!!!
Essentially all those things, such as Freudian consciousness and other explainations are just that, an explaination. There just theories, no one has proven what consciousness is and how all this has come into play. All I'm describing is just a theory as well, it all depends on what you currently believe in.
I could be completely wrong, that the mind has origin other than the brain and you could be wrong as well. And even so we could both be right, it could be part of the brain and metaphysical. Who the hell knows, I'm just trying to state it's a possibility.
As for social conditioning, I believe it is a big part in who we are. Think of it as this: If there is a child who is told everyday that he'll never be good enough, that his memory sucks, and that he is dumber than all the kids... inevidably he'll accept that, and there-by become what they've told him he is. And therefore the reverse is true, is someone is given confidence and the right "brainwashing" they'll most likely have alot better memory.
I believe those with photographic memories are not easily influenced by social conditioning, because their memory is independent of confidence in one's self, it comes more from their enhanced ability to simply see the memories easily, without restriction.
I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel?
If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right.
If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead.
False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all.
Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited.
If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?)
Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind :)
-Daniel
It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them.Quote:
Originally posted by Syntex
I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel?
If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right.
If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead.
False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all.
Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited.
If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?)
Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind
But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.
HAHAHA, it's funny kuz it's true :P .Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker
If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke?
Earlier today I had other thoughts on this, but whoooooosh they just slipped out.
Oh well.
Everyone not agreeing with this man is wrong, and delusional.Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Syntex
It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them.Quote:
I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel?
If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right.
If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead.
False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all.
Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited.
If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?)
Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind
But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.[/b]
Where you could be wrong is where you have failed. You cannot disprove as well as prove organized religion yet.Quote:
Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Syntex
It is exactly this mode of thinking that leads to such mistakes as 'organized religion'. Belief based on utility is the height of selfishness, conceit and intellectual irresponsibilty. However, it is understandable. It's not hard to see why certain individuals choose to abandon all logic and settle on a belief that comforts them.Quote:
I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel?
If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right.
If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead.
False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all.
Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited.
If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?)
Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind
But anyways, my question to you is this; why do you put humans on a pedestal above all else? We are animals, plain and simple. Furthermore, we are made up of the same shit as the computer in front of you, the can of Coke in your fridge, and the dirt on the ground. Mostly carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen with some other stuff sprinkled in for good measure. If we can have special 'metaphysical minds', why can't a bottle of Coke? Because its carbon molecules happen to be arranged in a slightly different manner? The concept is absurd. We are not special, we are not beautiful or unique snowflakes, we are the same decaying organic matter as everything else. If it comforts you, go nuts and add all the meaning you want to our meaningless existence, but just for a second, I beg you, step down from that pedestal upon which you have placed yourself and look at the big picture.[/b]
It's very possible that either of us can be right, but I have one VERY reliable thing going for me, that is, unfortunately, not so for you - science.Quote:
Originally posted by Syntex
Essentially all those things, such as Freudian consciousness and other explainations are just that, an explaination. There just theories, no one has proven what consciousness is and how all this has come into play. All I'm describing is just a theory as well, it all depends on what you currently believe in. *
I could be completely wrong, that the mind has origin other than the brain and you could be wrong as well. And even so we could both be right, it could be part of the brain and metaphysical. Who the hell knows, I'm just trying to state it's a possibility.
Sure, that's possible. But there's a big difference between what you describe and turning a human's mind into an accessible library.Quote:
As for social conditioning, I believe it is a big part in who we are. Think of it as this: If there is a child who is told everyday that he'll never be good enough, that his memory sucks, and that he is dumber than all the kids... inevidably he'll accept that, and there-by become what they've told him he is. And therefore the reverse is true, is someone is given confidence and the right \"brainwashing\" they'll most likely have alot better memory.
I believe those with photographic memories are not easily influenced by social conditioning, because their memory is independent of confidence in one's self, it comes more from their enhanced ability to simply see the memories easily, without restriction.[/b]
What does it even have to do with hope? Do you judge the universe surrounding you solely by the level of joy it brings you? If there are things you don't like in this universe, you ignore their existence solely because they're unpleasant? That's very egotistic of you. Regardless of whether you think it's \"hopeful\" or not, there can be only one objective truth, and I'd rather strive to understand it than to subscribe to self-illusion.Quote:
I'll also tell you why I believe the mind is independent of brain functions: What's more hopefull to believe in? That we are just physical and fleeting, our brain is our limitation? or that our minds are not bound by space and time, and that our body is just a vessel? *
[/b]
Actually, I don't see what's so cheerful about being \"metaphysical\". This would mean that such horrible concepts such as ghosts and the devil actually exist, not cheerful in the least! I'd rather be \"confined\" to my comfortable material existence, thank you.Quote:
If you believe our minds our physical, there is little hope for you, especially if your right.
If you believe our minds are metaphysical, There is much greater hope, and if your wrong, there is no dissapointment...because you'll be dead.[/b]
Because I do not determine my beliefs on the basis of whether they're pleasant or not. I determine them by how closely they fit the facts. It disturbes me the things people base their beliefs on. Maybe you should believe you are God and the universe was constructed solely for you, just because it makes you feel better with yourself?Quote:
False hope sometimes, can be greater than no hope at all.
Why believe the brain is physical? If you do, you could be limiting yourself... because the brain is limited.
If you believe the brain is not physical, (if your wrong) it won't hurt anything (if your right) you'll be alot less limited, by the parameters of physical means (such as if you believe your memory is physical and decays with time... then your not really helping your memory are you?)[/b]
[quote]
Thats just my line of reasoning in it, And if they ever prove our mind is soley in the brain, and can explain exactly how it works, Then I will change my views occordingly. But since right now I have a choice, I choose the metaphysical mind :)
-Daniel
You have a choise, yes, between something more likely, and less likely. There is more evidence towards physical mind than towards metaphysical mind. And "proof" is a meaningless concept. Even the theory of GRAVITY is just a theory, did you know that? It was never "prooved" true. Yet you don't doubt that gravity exists? Theories are never proven, that's not what they even strive to achieve. A theory that fits the observed facts better is considered the correct one.
[/quote]Where you could be wrong is where you have failed. You cannot disprove as well as prove organized religion yet.[/quote]
Can you disprove that there is a pink unicorn in my garage that secretely manipulates the entire world and humanity into eventually evolving into 7 meter tall squids dressed like balerinas? You can't, therefore it's true.
Consider this a valuable lesson in Burden of Proof ™.
*and I apologize about the double post*
argh, too much to read.. so i'll just state my belief.
I'll put it into computer terms.. that'll be easiest. I like to think of the brain as a huge Input/Ouput device.. thats all its job is. The consciousness of a person is not contained in the brain, which is why it would make sense that OBEs are possible, and remembering things from past lives (for some people... there will be skeptical ones).
There was a student that went to a college some years back, and there was a study being done.. (i think in maryland.. i cannot remember for sure).. well they noticed this student had an unusually large head, so they ran scans on him.. Turns out that over 95% of where there should have been brain matter, there was spinal fluid. A thin layer of brain tissue lined the inside of his scull.. Now, even missing this much of his brain, the student was remarkably smart and went through college with good grades and managed to earn a degree. I forgot, but his IQ was 140-something..
It makes you wonder though.. wouldn't it make sense for a person missing 95% of their brain, to be incapacitated or stupid? Well, it shows something.. the brain attaches us to our senses, and basically to this world.. without it we would just be a consciousness, without a body.. I suppose this is what is meant by soul. It makes sense.
But i dunno.. I've researched a bit on this, and its very interesting.. that people can have half of their brains taken away, and only suffer physical problems (that can recover in many cases). This should open up more discussion... that or start a flamewar :mad: .
I second that.Quote:
argh, too much to read.. so i'll just state my belief. [/b]
From what I read on page 1 and some of page 2, this is exactly what you are arguing about - beliefs.Quote:
.. so i'll just state my belief. [/b]
None of you can prove your opinions, except for the basic principals of the brains -
Some of you have extremely abstract ideas based on where your "mind" or various parts are stored.Quote:
Can you disprove that there is a pink unicorn in my garage that secretely manipulates the entire world and humanity into eventually evolving into 7 meter tall squids dressed like balerinas? You can't, therefore it's true. [/b]
Bringing the idea of "souls" into it is ludicris - souls are widely believed in, but provide no evidence whatsoever to support ANY claims, as noone knows the properties of these possibly existing phenomena. Same goes for OBE's, which could be hallucinations or non lucid dreams braught on by the way most people "induce" them.
Noone really knows ANY of this stuff, so I fail to see why this is such an arguement.
Well thats my 2 cents... sorry if I rambled or went off on a tangent through that.
lol, this is great... controversy.
First off, when someone believes in something it's perfectly alright. When someone has faith in something, thats when it gets nasty. You start to make your belief fit around all the facts and aren't looking for truth.
The simple thing is there is only two choices, you believe the world around isn't what it seems and that even a can of coke YES can be metaphysical, that nothing really exists accept in your mind. Or that things are just as they seem, a bunch of atoms that exist for no reason at all. We give meaning, because we percieve this reality (no not because we're higher and want to be a on pedistool). Science is all about saying "if you can't detect it, it's not there" and those who believe in something are simply saying "just because you can't detect it, doesn't mean its not there."
As for me choosing to believe that our minds are more than our brain, I do this not to put myself higher than everything else (by the way i think everything else is more than it seems too, even that can of coke.) I do this because it doesn't limit me, WHY LIMIT YOURSELF? once you do you have to stop there... but if you allow yourself to keep going, you'll find the truth of the real limit. Science could use a little open mindedness... just because you don't have evidence, doesn't mean you can't explore the possibility.
By the way don't make this turn into a disput about souls and God, thats faith, all I'm stating is a choice in theory. I don't claim something exists (like the metaphysical world) I'm simply claiming its a possibility and I choose to accept it as a possibility of choice.
You people have had lucid dreams, surely you can see how real they are compared to this world? The only difference is in your minds.
I'm not saying i'm right without a doubt by any means (thats what religious people do). Look, I like science and logic, in fact I consider myself a very analytical person, I can see the mind being inside the brain... BUT I'M skeptical... SHOOT ME.
-Daniel
I think you may have misunderstood me... probably my fault - let me clarify:
I dont believe either of the two main views expressed here - I believe that I do not understand the brain and mind, and I don't pretend to.
I am not saying belief is a bad thing - hell, it is what keeps most of us sane. I am saying that you are arguing (debating?) your beliefs, which i see as being a bit... strange. Its like two people from different religions trying to convince each other that theirs is superior.
Also, I have no intention to turn this into a religious dispute, but its the only thing I could think to reference to.
No harm meant.
TheUnknown: So you're saying the brain merely connects our mind (which is akin to a software?) to this world and body via our senses? That means that the following things: memories, and feelings, all come from our mind, or "soul", right? (since, well, you said yourself that some people remember their former lives, thus memory must be stored in a non-physical medium). So, let me get this straight for everyone. Are you claiming that human memory and human feelings cannot be altered by tampering with your physical brain? Think carefully before you answer.
Syntex: Well, the problem for that group of people who, quoting yourself, say that "just because you can't detect it, doesn't mean its not there", is that they have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of determining what is out there, if they have no means of detecting it. Consider my Pink Unicorn example: you have no way of determining whether it's true or not, since you have no way of observing said unicorn. Yes, now that I've told you about its existence, only NOW you have a choise of either believing in it, or not, but it's not relevant. How can you determine what exactly that unicorn does, how it looks, how can you approve its existence without OBSERVING it, in one way or another? Phenomena that are impossible to somehow observe are meaningless by default, since they could just as well be a figment of our imagination. There is absolutely NO difference whatsoever between the concepts of metaphysics and the Pink Unicorn. Both are impossible to ovserve, both are meaningless concepts. Thus, even if something out there exist which is inobservable (and there IS definetly a possibility of such), it would be completely pointless to speculate on its nature, right until it can somehow become observable.
In light of this, there is absolutely no reasons to take these imaginary figments into account when determining your opinions or world view. I hope you've learned why we should "limit ourselves" (otherwise, feel free to build a shrine to the Pink Unicorn in your room).
And just for the record, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. As far as I'm concerned this debate is just harmless sport.
Having had all that said I am more confused thatn when I started. :P
Where does the subconscious reside? :whyme:
Is it safe to say we do not know!?!
Exactly, we don't know, we all just have opinions. Most of us agree though, that its not a single thing.
SO THE ANSWER: WHO THE HELL KNOWS...
Also wicked, No I still see no reason in limiting ourselfs...
-Daniel
how about i say.. one person created all this reality.. and it could be any one of you.. even me. That all of us were just thought up in another's dream?
What would you say to that? Its not impossible, not even improbable.
I did what I could, i stated my personal belief, but since I have not died and seen what happens after that, I can't see the world from the outside, whether its illusionary or not.
My, my...how we dive into the philosophical...
Good postings. I am new this forum, but I have been thinking about this topic for nearly 30 years now. I think if we start to consider our brain to be one of many, then the concept of a subconscious mind starts to make sense.
The prefrontal cortex is where your logic mainly happens, when you sleep it is deactivated normally which is why you don't think about giant, angry, rainbow, flying, supersonic hot dogs being abnormal. And when lucid dreaming occurs the prefrontal cortex is reactivated a little which is why you can think normally and be conscious when LDing. Your subconscious seems to think logically also so I guess if it is a real thing, it'll reside all over your prefrontal cortex.
not sure about the brain parts, other than i hope that i have one:)
the explanation of what we call "subconscious" has to be within all of us, we need to develop language to describe it simple terms
Hey, guys. This thread is over 10 years old and none of these members are active anymore. Posting in old threads is called necroposting, which is against forum rules. If you want to discuss this topic, please start a new thread. :flyaway:
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