Could lucidity be bad?

So, for as long as I can stretch my mind back to remember my dreams, I have been able to navigate through them and make seemingly conscious decisions about what goes on in them. Interspersed throughout my life, I have had precognitive dreams; meaning, after I write them down, they happen. I decided to go back to college to learn more about dreams and dreaming and maybe get some insight into the implications of precognitive dreams. One of the things I came up with, is that maybe I dream lucidly too much. That's basically the only kind of dreaming I do. The dreams that have ended up being precognitive just come to me, and I don't manipulate them for whatever reason. It's almost like two rides at disney world. One ride is interactive, like that buzz lightyear thing where you can shoot stuff. The other (precog) is like thundermountain, where you are taken on a ride and all you can do is observe. Anyway, I am going under the assumption that precognitive dreams are significant, whereas lucid dreams are more of a technique or way to dream for (i dunno? entertainment? just for wow factor?) something else. If precognitive dreams are one day proven or mapped out in the realm of observable and repeatable science, the implications are earthshattering. Future knowledge gained during dreaming? It SOUNDS absurd, but if it's true (to my mind it IS true) then science has a lot to talk about. I'm not gonna sit here and list all those reprocussions that precognitive dreaming brings, but if you think about receiving knowledge of the future in a dreamstate, that's pretty far-reaching. Anyway, the idea is, I feel like lucid dreams could possibly get in the way of something much bigger. Why manipulate what we recieve in dreams? I don't know the answer, and all I'm doing is proposing the question. Maybe it doesn't interfere at all, and I hope it doesn't, because almost every dream I have had in I don't know how long has been lucid... and I haven't had a clear precog dream in like 3 years.

done
r0b

Lucidity is by no means bad. It isn't getting in the way of anything big, because, as I have vocalized many times, PRECOG IS FAKE. Now, I'm not saying you didn't have a dream that later occured in real life, I'm just saying that it wasn't procognition.
A likely explanation is that the evidence of the future occurance was already present and your mind had already put 2 and 2 together subconsciously.
Another, less likely explanation is that it was random chance--maybe the dream just happened to be about something that occurred later on. I'm betting on the first.

Accept whatever you want, but as far as I can see, I'd just continue on lucid dreaming in your situation. Having a non-lucid dream every once in a while is nice, but don't confine yourself to believing that any non-lucid dream you have is relevant in your daily life. Just advice, take it or leave it.

I see what you are saying.. But I don't believe it can be bad. Naturaly Lucidity is a very diverse subject. Some may believe it can lead you into evil places others think its all science, all nurons and electrons. I wont get into the subject of precog. dreams, becuase clearly I dont know anything about them, but as for WHY people manipulate objects and what the point of it is, to me is simply this, we CANT do it in reality. You can't fly or create/destroy as we wish, we can't feel smell and taste in such a real manor while still being able to do as one wishes. Is it bad to do as you wish in dreams? Not to me.

Take advantage of all the lucid dreams you recieve and have fun. :mrgreen:

I also sometimes dreams about things that then happen, after maybe days, weeks or even month
Its only small things, like "Hand me the ketchup" etc

Mmm, i agree with Tsen - i'm very skeptical about the concept of precognition (and i think you all know what i mean by 'very skeptical'). So as far as interrupting prophecy's concerned, no-one has anything to fear.

But in answer to the more general, post topic, i've noticed a 'bad' correlation that tends to show up in people who love lucid dreaming. It's only a tendency, and only a correlation, and the relationship is with a love or obsession for lucid dreaming, so dreaming itself is not the culprit. But the bad correlation is with depression patients. It's commonly known depression patients are more likely to enjoy forms of escapism, and amongst them, dreaming (and more simply, sleep) is one of them. Depressed people are commonly known to feel 'sleeping/dreaming is the best thing in [their] life', and they express desires to 'escape social consciousness'. That is, the anti-socialness that is related to depression promotes emphasising a person's dreamworld as an escape, a change, from their real world.

So this correlation, this detachment from the enjoyment of real life, is the only thing i could raise as an answer to the question, but i'm not accusing dreaming itself. Most people can enjoy lucid dreaming and be completely undepressed, but a correlation does exist.

precongitive dreams dont always mean that you can see the future..... sometimes your brain simply pieces together things in your life and comes up with a logical explanation or outcome before you do, and you dream about it, and then BAM it happens.... :shock: or maybe you really are physic.... hey, how many kids am i going to have once i grow up :wink: :?: :?: :P

(by brain i meant your subconscious mind, which your not always tapped into)

Although this may not be going down the same path you are it still applies to the question I have an experiance that is bad in my mind.

I have had several regular dreams with my mom in them. They are great! We usaually talk and whatever else. In the morning I can reminisce over it.
In the opposite manner I have become lucid in a few of these dreams. As I become lucid I am able to think. Wich leads me to the conclusion she is an image and nothing more. Not to say It could not be more if dream characters are more than what I make them out to be.

As far as precognition. I think that our subconscious has the capacity to store sooo much information and the uncandid ability to apply it to things in the waking world at times. giving possibilty to De'javus and preconcieved thoughts, brought on because of the vast amount of memories it has stored.

Lucid Dreams are a tool of the mind and like any tool, it can be used for creating bad or good.

So I'd say the answer is YES, it is bad, but at the same time it's great, depends on what the person is doing with their dreams.

-Daniel

P.S. I hope no one's practicing being a cereal killer in their dreams, and use their precognitive powers to destroy the world by winning the lottery and buying off all the oil. :P

Dear Raab,

I understand your reservations concerning Lucid Dreaming. It is possible to overcontrol Dreams so that any deep Wisdom or Knowledge is blocked by what amounts to a Consciously imposed inhabition. We can see that the Dream Mind often endeavors to shake off this Overcontrol by tricks like False Awakenings.

Typically, I only use the faculty of Lucidity in order to abandon what are only ordinary dreams. Most of the time their is something spiritual that I am working on and thinking about, and I focus on wishing that my Dream Mind would work up an appropriate Dream or even a series of Dreams making up a complete Motif. When Lucidity would come I would intone an AUM and levitate up simply in order to leave lesser dream characters behind (have you noticed that most dream characters cannot levitate, but that the ones who can, don't need to be left behind). But one can waste alot of time and energy just flying around. So I go up just so I can come down... into the Intended Dream Scene... not something of my own Conscious Creation, but whatever it is that my Higher Dream Mind had been cooking up and incubating.

Lucidity can be used in order to keep enough self-awareness to keep one's Consciousness-Energy Level's up, to extend the length of the Lucid Dream (rapid breathing seems to be the best way I have found to extend the duration of Dreaming). But I would think it a mistake to apply Lucidity in order to obstruct Dream Content that would otherwise be flowing from the Higher Dream Mind.

And Raab, it sounds to me as though you are striking about the right balance. You seem to have Lucid Dreams the same way other people have ordinary dreams. Not every Dream can be Life Altering and Earth Shaking. It takes the Higher Dream Mind a while to configure and produce a good powerful dream (I once had a dream of seeing a smokey room full of writers all working on my next Big Dream -- it takes time and energy). When one of your Important Dreams are ready -- your Precognitive Dreams -- you have the sense and intuition not to interfer with its content.

So, although some people can trip themselves up by using Lucidity with too heavy a hand, you seem to be doing okay with it. You will know if you are overdoing it when your Dream Mind attempts to lead you out of Lucidity with false awakenings and whatever other tricks the Dream Mind can play.

Yay!!! Another person who wants everyone to think they are special because they can see the future...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucky27
Yay!!! Another person who wants everyone to think they are special because they can see the future...

---

Sounds like the bitter tone of frustrated resentment.

Its always been accepted by the Generality of Mankind that Dreams could have Prognosticative Value. Only the most materialistic and barren nihilism would dismiss what is obvious to everybody else -- that the Collective Consciousness and Universal Mind can reach into our Dreams with Omens, Warnings, Oracles and Revelations in order to Advance Good and obstruct Evil.... while the rats at our feet scurry about and sneer at it all.

Fo sho I think it could be bad....Thats why you gotta watch out for those sick bastards they'll backstab ya in a second for they're damn fix... just keep watching... 0_0

Quote:

---

Originally posted by plobable
Fo sho I think it could be bad....Thats why you gotta watch out for those sick bastards they'll backstab ya in a second for they're damn fix... just keep watching... 0_0

---

I don't think he meant 'bad' in quite that sense... I took it to mean that he was implying that sometimes Lucidity could be counterproductive... in the same way that watching alot of TV when one ought to be doing one's homework could be considered 'bad'. Nobody is drastically injured by it, but one can see how time is being wasted.

So, Leo Volont., you're saying that the Dream Mind is something inside us that makes us dreams, and we can fight it? It's weird cause you're making Lucidity sound like new weapons against the Dream Mind, so that if 'it' tries to lead me out of lucidity with false awakenings, I can defend myself agaist it?

also, I think if a life-altering dream was sent down to me, I woulnd't be able to stop it cause we can't prevent fate or God from doing something that must be done, even in a dream.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by tryagain
So, Leo Volont., you're saying that the Dream Mind is something inside us that makes us dreams, and we can fight it? It's weird cause you're making Lucidity sound like new weapons against the Dream Mind, so that if 'it' tries to lead me out of lucidity with false awakenings, I can defend myself agaist it?

also, I think if a life-altering dream was sent down to me, I woulnd't be able to stop it cause we can't prevent fate or God from doing something that must be done, even in a dream.

---

I'm not saying that the Dream Mind is inside of us. It could be, but often seems to be beyond anything that could be put up by our mere selves. One of the English Language's greatest writers and talkers, Dr.Samuel Johnson, the Philosopher of London, once told of a dream he had in which 5 men sat about a table and quite destroyed him with their wit and argument. When he awoke, he considered that in the entire kingdom only a few men existed who could come close to being that brilliant. he rightly wondered where that talent come from, since it seemed quite beyond himself. So I believe that the Dream Self must be in some way Transcendent.

Now, Lucidity as a 'weapon'. Remember what Lucidity is. Lucidity is being Conscious of Dreaming while one is Dreaming. That in itself is not a weapon, and can't be bad in and of itself. Awareness is always a good thing. But many people us Lucidity as an opportunity to control, suppress and inhibit what the Dream Mind may be trying to bring forth. For instance, Patricia Garfield, who used to be a big name in Dream Scholarship, used to conduct workshops for women in which her main point was that Lucid Dreams were great for summoning up sex dreams. In my youth I would use Lucidity in order to just fly around for the fun of it.

So, being Aware is a Good Thing. But taking Control may be a Bad Thing. If one is cutting off the Transcendent Higher Dream Mind, I can hardly suppose that having a good sex dream or flying around the sky a bit would be considered adequate compensation.

I wonder about your opinion that we are locked into some pre-determined Fate by God, and that we are not Free to make bad choices. Have you not ever made a bad choice that God in His infinite Wisdom did not prevent you from making. I used to think I was under God's total Protection, when I was very young. But after I bought a few real lemon used cars, and took a few bad jobs, it occured to me that God was quite content to let me make my own mistakes. Likewise, we can screw up out Dreaming. Now, yes, we can be bailed out sometimes. That is why there are Repeat Dreams, and Dream Motifs -- if we are consistently making the Wrong Dream Choices, then the dreams repeat until we finally get it Right. A few times a certain dream Archetype, The Wise Old Man, had come to me to give me advice and warnings. The Higher Dream Mind DOES try to help. But we still have much free choice and a great opportunity to screw things up for ourselves by making wrong choices.

False Awakenings are the clue our Dream Self is giving us that we should be presenting less opposition to the Dream Mind's Presentation of Dream Content. Lucid Dreams will stop trying to shake you off if you stop offering so much interference to the Pre-arranged Dream Program.

Awareness is Great, but let the Higher Dream Self do its job. Control your Self, but don't try to control the Dream.

I haven't been lucid enough to debate any potential negative side-effects. But I've had precognitive dreams since I was knee-high.

To all you skeptics who are so sure precognitive dreams are a form of delusion, tell me this:

Have any of YOU had any dreams that even appeared to be precognitive? If not, how can you tell others who have, what they are?

The theory that the subconscious simply constructs a possible future more accurately than our conscious minds and therefore provides a convincing illusion is fine. But if you've never experienced it, you're just making an educated guess, which is after all, a guess.

I had a precognitive dream of a scenario in a precise location and with specific people 8 months in advance of it occuring. I had 8 months to consciously remember and think about the details of that dream, but no reference point to match them with.

That's because the location was 1,500 miles away from where I was living when I had the dream (and no, I did not see any pictures of this place prior to dreaming of it), in a place I had never been anywhere near before, and I had yet to meet any of the people in the dream (all of whom lived in various states, roughly 1,500 miles away as well and were not associated with anyone I knew at the time, and all arrived at that same place without any involvement from me).

So riddle me this, how did my subconscious accurately construct that scenario 8 months in advance using only my five senses?

:?:

I had a dream that I ate pancakes and sasuage for breakfast, and guess what I ate that morning?... Cheerios. Now it wasn't exact, but I think my dream was close enough for me to be considered a seer. My magical powers are far more superior than anyone elses. You had better treat me like royalty. Who knows... maybe one day i'll dream about aliens coming and taking you all away. I won't tell you the password to get them to stop.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucky27
I had a dream that I ate pancakes and sasuage for breakfast, and guess what I ate that morning?... Cheerios. Now it wasn't exact, but I think my dream was close enough for me to be considered a seer. My magical powers are far more superior than anyone elses. You had better treat me like royalty. Who knows... maybe one day i'll dream about aliens coming and taking you all away. I won't tell you the password to get them to stop.

---

lol

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucky27
I had a dream that I ate pancakes and sasuage for breakfast, and guess what I ate that morning?... Cheerios. Now it wasn't exact, but I think my dream was close enough for me to be considered a seer. My magical powers are far more superior than anyone elses. You had better treat me like royalty. Who knows... maybe one day i'll dream about aliens coming and taking you all away. I won't tell you the password to get them to stop.

---

hahahalarious mate :lol:

How do you precogs even begin to explain your dreams' feasibility. With any thought, is it not instantly clear that the concept is simply logically impossible? How on earth are you genuinely predicting future events with no cues? You have no idea of how precog dreams might come to be, have you? I wonder why that is...

I agree the subconscious collaboration of information to produce a thought about the future that might just happen is possible, because it is a reasonable, viable thought. But seeing the future, out of the blue, is nothing short of absolutely absurd ridicularity.

Well I can only speak for myself, and I don't consider myself a "precog." I simply have had occasional dreams of experiences that later occured precisely as I dreamt them, whether it was a conversation with someone or being in a place I had never been before, etc.

And I wouldn't refer to my experiences as "predicting" because, if I'm not mistaken, that's an active attempt to determine the future. I simply have had dreams of events and experiences that later happen. I have no control over them. I have never chosen or attempted to have such dreams. They've just happened on very rare occasions throughout my life.

And no, I don't have any idea how my dreams might predict the future until the event or experience I dreamed about comes to pass. The only way I can verify that it was a precognitive dream is to consciously analyse and remember my dreams. Once in awhile I will have a particularly vivid dream that stands out in my memory, and at some point, usually just a few days later, I will simply find myself in the situation I dreamt about, listening to people say, word-for-word, what they said in my dream. It's a surrealisitic experience, like being in a scene from a play and knowing everyone's lines before they speak.

The thing is, none of my precognitive dreams have ever had any grand significance, at least not to anyone but me. I've never dreamt of a plane crashing before it did or the assassination of world leader. Just personal experiences, many of which were rather mundane, but unmistakably precisely what I had dreamed of prior to them happening. That's it. I have no Nostradamus-type visions to offer. In fact I don't even believe Nostradamus was a "precog," whatever that means.

But, if you're asking me to prove the feasibility of precognitive dreams, I can't. Not anymore than you can disprove them. If you're asking me to explain how it happens, the truth is I don't know and have never really questioned it myself. When you grow up doing something, and later find out it's supposedly "impossible," you're more likely to wonder why no one else seems to be having the same experiences, rather than why you do.

But as for the concept being impossible, as I've said elsewhere in this forum, lucid dreaming was deemed laughably "impossible" by nearly every neurologist and psychiatrist in the world prior to the 1970's. So no, I don't think there's any reason to assume precognitive dreams are impossible.

Every year, hundreds of thousands of first year psychology students, in colleges and universities across the U.S., take part in a mass experiment to study the possible existance of ESP. Every year, since the 1960's, the numbers have consistantly shown a slightly higher rate of success than the statistical probability. Can you logically explain that away? Or why remote viewing has been consistently proven accurate in scientific experiments to the point of being employed as an intelligence program by the U.S. Military?

The funny thing is, you seem to think you've got a handle on the "real world" and anyone who doesn't agree is delusional. But if you believe in science and reason, the truth is science and reason are proving things that don't match up in your "real world." Quantum Physics anyone? If the numbers don't lie, maybe you should take another look at what they're saying.

Something like precognitive dreams is virtually impossible to prove or disprove in any laboratory. But since you're a fan of logic and reason, doesn't it follow logically to observe the scientific study of similiar "impossible" experiences like ESP or Remote Viewing? And if some of them prove true, however slightly, doesn't it logically follow that precognition is at least possible?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Pandragon
doesn't it follow logically to observe the scientific study of similiar \"impossible\" experiences like ESP or Remote Viewing? And if some of them prove true, however slightly, doesn't it logically follow that precognition is at least possible?

---

That conclusion -that precog is possible- certainly does follow from that premise -ESP being proven true. Thus, your argument is valid. But boringly enough, that initial premise is untrue, so the argument is unsound. Not one of ESP or Remote Viewing have been proven, so there remains no reason to defy intuition and the logic of time's progression in believing that precognitive dreams (of the promptless predicting variety we're considering) are at all possible.

Labs are not necessary (nor, as you say, are they effective - as they are simply inappropriate) for the disproval of precognition. Logical argument is all that's required. Considering time and our limitation within it, tapping into the future beyond that which is possible (substantiated prediction) from present or past-time experiences (which is what unaided precog is), excepting the chance success of guesswork, is proven impossible. Such cognitive time-travel simply is logically impossible.

Well to answer the dream question, I would say that if LDs were bad, then I would be dead & buried by now, b/c I have them every night!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by alucinor+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alucinor)</div>

Quote:

---

<!--QuoteBegin-Pandragon

---

Quote:

---

doesn't it follow logically to observe the scientific study of similiar \"impossible\" experiences like ESP or Remote Viewing? And if some of them prove true, however slightly, doesn't it logically follow that precognition is at least possible?

---

That conclusion -that precog is possible- certainly does follow from that premise -ESP being proven true. Thus, your argument is valid. But boringly enough, that initial premise is untrue, so the argument is unsound. Not one of ESP or Remote Viewing have been proven, so there remains no reason to defy intuition and the logic of time's progression in believing that precognitive dreams (of the promptless predicting variety we're considering) are at all possible.

Labs are not necessary (nor, as you say, are they effective - as they are simply inappropriate) for the disproval of precognition. Logical argument is all that's required. Considering time and our limitation within it, tapping into the future beyond that which is possible (substantiated prediction) from present or past-time experiences (which is what unaided precog is), excepting the chance success of guesswork, is proven impossible. Such cognitive time-travel simply is logically impossible.[/b]

---

As for that, there is no one in the world that can make 100% accurate guesses, so there is no such thing. On the other hand, there are some people that can guess right answers 75% of the time. That is my score in Card Concentration, but I can also guess in real life, but 75%?! That totally sux for a score! :shakehead2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by alucinor
Not one of ESP or Remote Viewing have been proven

---

I just gave you an example, a very large and well documented example, of ESP being proven, at least more accurate than statistical probability i.e. "guessing," in a valid scientific study, involving thousands of participants, and lasting over 3 decades, and asked you to explain the results of that study, if it is not ESP.

Your answer? Because ESP is unproven!

Well I surrender. How can anyone argue with such brilliant logic? :P

Although, I really must thank you for illustrating exactly why phenomina like ESP continue to be considered "unproven." When faced with data that suggests otherwise, die-hard skeptics will turn a blind eye and simply claim it isn't there!

Well done! :goodjob2:

Wow, this is lively. So far as I know (and I probably would) no precognitive dream has ever been scientifically verified, but thats not really the point. If a person tells you they became lucid in a dream you believe them because they keep telling you it is happening. But what if I told you that when I was 19 (I am 35 now) I was living with my aunt and uncle and had a very vivid dream about getting into a fight with her. The setting the context and the words were all clear to me.

Two days later the exact scenario happened, the fight ended with me leaving to go to New Mexico. Now, if someone else's empirical statement that they have lucid dreamed gives the theory of lucid dreams some support then surely my testimony gives the possibility of precog dreams some support. Many many people have had such experiences.

So I am glad that Leo is on a journey, I try to interpret my dreams when I can, which is not always. Sometimes it is clear that they are sort of like me telling myself certain things, I have no idea why I should need to but hey they are my dreams and I can use or abuse them as I see fit.

I also liked Howetzer's point. If his mind is giving back to him his mother for a time, why choose lucidity where you fly and talk to dolphins over that? I would'nt. And if those dreams turn into a journey to the center of human existence good for him, he will probably be even more respectful of the opinions of others than I have seen him to be already.

Can LD be harmful? I think that there is a need for some real technical know how here because our brains need to go through certain cycles. It is possible that the importance of dreams is not just that we have them but that somehow a part of us needs to use them to sort through things that we cannot process during the day or maybe even deeper issues. If our more shallow conscious mind always takes control we may be short circuiting something that is very important for mental health.

That is just a theory, but I do have trouble believeing that nothihg a person dreams about has any real meaning at all. The connections between life experience and dream scenarios (uncontrolled) is just stastically too strong across the board. And I would suggest that sometimes people refuse to see meaning in their dreams because the meanings are so hard to face. Nor could I suggest more strongly that when you are regularly using drugs your brain chemistry is altered which may either mask or exacerbate dream dysfunction. That is why I advocate drug free lucidity. And trust me I know enough about it to make an informed choice, for myself anyways.

There is also an age component (this is not meant as age discrimination) but when we are younger typically we try to suppress things more than an older person. Or perhaps the full wieght of what it means to have our first sexual experience be with our aunt does'nt occur to us.

People who are older are often more sensitive or more hardened than young people. I am not sure there is anyone out there to thank, but I am grateful that somehow I am learning to love people more as I grow older, despite the traumas of my earlier days which could have easily pushed me into a life of crime or pure hatred. And so I treat others and their opinions with more respect.

EJ