Okay guys. Aside from giving me flashbacks to what I went through with this thread originally, I have to say that you might be missing my overall point.
Those four criteria, which are not mine, which were brought up some 57 posts into this thread, and on which I already clearly commented ( I can tell because you seem to understand my points about them, even though you're still presenting arguments as if I am relying on the criteria for my treatise), and about which I spoke purely in the context Ctharhlie's post, are not, not, not the foundation of this thread, and have nothing, nothing, nothing to do with proving to yourself that you've had a LD after you've woken up. I never said they did, and never will.
I can't think of any way to say this more clearly, so I hope you understand: there really is no conflict, I think, or discrepancy in what I'm talking about because I had some good words to say about those 4 criteria in the context of a response to a question, so please try your best to shed them (the 4 criteria) from your attempt to understand what I'm saying here.... as I think I've said several times now, in terms of proof after waking, they really don't matter.
All that said:
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Originally Posted by
Venryx
Sorry about that! If you look closely, you'll notice I put brackets around the list of 4 corollaries. I thought that would be clear enough and to mark it as having come from the prior post, but I probably should have used another [QUOTE tag.
It's true that while you didn't list those corollaries yourself, you did reference them, and very much seemed to have affirmed that they're sufficient to establish lucidity--at least while you're in a dream. (see below for the quotes)
I just included them in-line (in brackets) to make it clear what you were referencing--sorry for the confusion.
Sorry; I did miss the brackets; but even with the brackets you seem seem to have implied that the criteria were mine, and that they were integral to the premise of the OP; I would say "My bad" for misunderstanding, yet you are still bringing them up, below, as though they mattered to me:
The key part there -- and the only reason I referenced them -- was to confirm that, sure, if you are lucid, they would be handy for confirming that lucidity during the dream. Aside from that, they would have nothing whatsoever to do with how you confirm to yourself that you were lucid upon waking ... and I hope you noted that I also spoke at length about how those criteria can be confirmed in a NLD as well, simply by dreaming about making those confirmations.
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Well, although they weren't your criteria, you did essentially make them your own by saying (from
#58), "if during the dream you can pass any or all of
those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid".
No. I didn't.
I've reread that part of the post several times now, and I still cannot understand how you drew the conclusion that I decided those criteria worked to confirm that you were lucid after you woke up. I think I even used italics to confirm that sure, the criteria were excellent tools for confirming lucidity while you were lucid, during the dream, but those same criteria could just as easily be incorporated into a NLD, where you dream about asking the questions... and, how you remember it all upon waking is where the final determination is made.
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As well as (from
#58): "
Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with RC's, memory, and certain self-awareness confirmations
like those four corollaries. To say otherwise would be absurd."
However, I think I understand now that you're making a clear distinction between proof
during a dream and proof
upon waking.
If you understand that, then why are you still asking about it?
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In other words, while the above quotes do seem to say pretty unambiguously that those criteria are sufficient to establish lucidity while you're in a dream, they don't count essentially once you wake up, because you may have only (non-lucidly) dreamed that they passed? Is that what you're saying?
Yes! That is what I'm saying! And yet...
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But that's the same post where you said the two quotes above! Look them over again!
1) "if during the dream you can pass any or all of those four corollaries [...] then you're certainly lucid"
2) "Of course you can prove to yourself during the dream that you are lucid, with [...] confirmations like those four corollaries."
These quotes legitimately make it unclear to me what your position is!
No, they don't!
Note the words "during the dream" inserted in there (even back then I was careful about including them).
Those corollaries certainly work fine for lucid confirmation during the dream. But they are useless after the dream, which is where this thread, and true proof that you were lucid, is centered. I don't know how many different ways I can say this: proof that you were lucid comes after you have woken up... if you truly were lucid during the dream, you will know it, during the dream; and you will remember it, lucidly, upon waking, as a normal, easy to recall, recent conscious moment. If you were not lucid but were dreaming about being lucid, you will likely not know it during the dream (because the dream is about being lucid), even if you also dreamed about confirming the criteria, but can confirm upon waking that, thanks to how you remember the dream, you may not have been lucid (i.e., the dream fades quickly, just as a NLD might).
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I could try to understand your meaning better by going over the posts again, but I think it will be faster to just ask you directly:
It may be faster, for you, but I highly recommend rereading the actual posts, especially with the consideration that there were some posts before #57. But we're here, so:
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Question 1) Let's say that you suddenly find yourself in what might be a dream. You remember the below 4 criteria, and start checking whether they're all true:
Now let's say that you've found all 4 criteria to be true. Is that sufficient to prove to you, in that moment, that you are lucid?
Yes it is... in that moment.
Now, here's where it can get hazy: if you are dreaming about being lucid, your non-lucid DC self will be fully convinced that it is lucid. But all is not lost:
This is a "you had to be there" sort of thing, but be assured that that conviction is far different from the actual conviction you will have when truly lucid; the difference can be easily noticed, upon waking, when comparing the two memories.
Bottom line: if you are lucid, the criteria work just fine as confirmation for something you already know; if you are not lucid, the criteria are simply plot devices in the narrative in which your DC "you" is participating, during the dream.
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Question 2) Now forget the scenario above, and pretend there's some other time, a week later say, where you just woke up. You have the feeling that you just exited a dream. So you think back, and remember a point in your dream where you checked all 4 of the criteria above, and they all passed. Of course, it's always possible your memory is faulty, but as much as you can remember, you checked the 4 criteria, and they really did pass (i.e. as much as you can remember, you really did know the dream objects would disappear, you really did know that physical laws need not apply, etc.). Is this sufficient to prove to you, now having awoken, that you were lucid in the dream?
No, it is not.
I would never define my lucidity based on fading memories of doing things like confirming those criteria. That, in fact, was pretty much the point of the treatise. Proof doesn't come from the content of the dream (especially if you must struggle to remember it), but in the quality of its memory: A true LD will be a part of your memory, of your conscious experience, and you will be able to remember that you were lucid without needing to refer to the narrative itself. [This is likely another "you have to be there" bit that likely requires much more explanation, I know, but time and space aren't allowing it, this time.]
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Thank you! I legitimately want to clear up confusion on your position on this!
I hope so, because it sure feels like I'm being tested. ;)
I think I went into this at some length on the thread (several times, in fact), so if I'm still failing to get my point across, I do hope you'll go back and browse the thread. I also think that if you tried to look at what I'm saying more simply, you might be less confused. I am not a complex person, by any measure, and generally I say things as simply as possible... unfortunately, I also have a bad habit of trying to incorporate other people's thoughts with my own, as I did with Ctharlhie's post #57, and that can complicate things!
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Originally Posted by
DawnEye11
A small change can make a huge difference though. :) Don't worry. It was when you talked about retelling the dream and not being able to recall a lucid that stuck out to me more anyways. I was honestly afraid to continue reading those huge blocks of texts which is why I was hoping for the condensed version.
Sometimes, unfortunately, huge blocks are necessary.
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I think this is where level of lucidity would come in as discussed in other threads.You could clear all 3 but have very little waking life memory. Its the waking life memory that takes the cake in the end. With no waking life memory you wont be aware its a dream or be aware its a dream and have completely different waking life memory.So this is how i see it. With very little you can be aware but still be immersed in the dream. With only a tiny bit of waking life memory lost you can be close to full lucidity or fully lucid and just happened to forget because you didn't care to remember in the end or distractions. Lastly there is fully lucid with full waking life memory. Although clear waking life memory is important it doesn't mean that you weren't lucid because you didn't ask yourself a list of waking life memory questions. For the most part when you wake up and think about/write the dream you can see signs that tell you whether you were or were not.
I think you're confusing different aspects of memory here.
Though I'm not a fan of levels of lucidity (I don't go much beyond "mediocre" and "full-on" as levels myself), your point about awareness during the dream is sound, and makes good sense. But:
In terms of confidently remembering a LD after you have woken up, which is the point of this thread: You will tend to remember a lucid of any level upon waking as a waking-life consciousness event, because all lucids, no matter how weak, are by definition waking-life consciousness events. So, even if you had no access to memory during a low-level LD, you will very likely still have little trouble remembering the experience upon waking.
About the only exception to this I can think of is that if, after you've been LD'ing for quite a while and LD's aren't all quite the same "Oh Wow!" experience as the first few were, regardless of time or content, then you might just start forgetting some low-level lucids, just as you discard disinteresting waking-life consciousness moments as they pass. But I'm not sure that matters here.
Venryx & DawnEye11:
I hope all this made some sense, and did more to clarify than to muddle. I guess the tl;dr: here is that this thread is about confirming to yourself, after you are awake, that you had a LD, and those criteria, though certainly useful during a LD, are pretty much meaningless, proof-wise, after you've woken up.