Thread: Moral Uncertainty..

Maybe when you have a LD DC have to come in and work. Maybe they have their own subconcious and concious and well. Maybe they go to a world after they were done. I guess the DC were just overworked.

This is only a theory.

Originally posted by Dashival
What are DC? Dream characters?

Yes ,

There is a list of acronyms in the link below you should check out.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3243

It could have been an individual thing that he was saying to himself like "dont live so much in the dreams and do things in real life"

But I say that... people in the dreams are there becasue of of me being there, If I didnt want them there they wouldnt be there, and if I wasnt there, they wouldnt be there.

Uncertainty I think is the key word. To an individual it could be a host of things. Many people are very skeptical of lucid dreaming. Mostly do tothe fact of their lack of knowledge about it. But when your conscience has uncertainty about anything it is likley to show up in your dreams at some point.
This just happens to be associated with the core subject, making it seem possibly more than it is.

Sometimes when you're practising a skill you will get vibes that say you should stop, you're failing. Often, these can be cues that you're actually getting close to making some progress, and about to get past a bottleneck.

Dear Dashival,

It goes largely ignored within the Lucid Dreaming community, but Dreams, ordinary dreams are sometimes very remarkable creations, instruments of instructions, and vehicles for some wonderful inspirations. some part of the Mind must be putting a great deal of effort into creating these dreams.

But what do Lucid Dreamers do with these almost God-send Creations -- they blast them away with their Control. It must be frustrating for the Creative Intelligence which produced the dreams which are thus destroyed.

Typically the Dream Mind attemps to defend the integrity of its Dreams by trying to loll the Dreamer back into ordinary Dreaming with the ploy of False Awakening, the strategy being that if the Dreamer thinks he has awakened, then he will no longer suppose he is the Dreamer in a Dream and he will suspend his Dream Destroying Control.

But in the Dream you heard about, the Dream Mind simply sent a Messenger and asked the lucid dreamer politely to desist.

You know, too much lucidity can be fatal to the Dreamer. One Poster I've spoken too was a very proficient Lucid Dreamer and than had a spate of False Awakenings, and then suddenly lost all dream recall. The Dream Mind figured that if he could not play nice -- by the rules -- then he would no longer be invited to play at all. No more dreams at all.

So don't expect an indefinite number of warnings and false awakenings before your Dream Mind also resorts to that same extreme measure, of saving the Dreams by eliminating the Dreamer... like the Army Captain in Vietnam who reported that he had to destroy the village to save it.

Originally posted by Dashival
This may be extremely weird, but here goes..

I read elsewhere that someone had a dream in which one of the 'characters' said to him to stop LDing, it was interfering in their time or something. Is this just in his dream, or does it actually mean something? For all we know there could be people in our brains that get to run and play during our dreams, and lucid dreaming interferes in their time..

Discuss please

I doubt there are "people" in our minds. They are just aspects of yourself.

Something like you are describing happened to me once. I was LDing and asked for an "audience" with my subconscious mind. A guy appeared and attacked me... shock woke me up...

Another thing I've noticed - whenever I want to perform some big experiment I lose lucidity for a period of up to 2 weeks. When I give up on my goal, It comes back.

Looks like my mind is guarding some secrets

I say to bad for them if they are there. Personally I would be happy with one long, and vivid lucid dream a week, every week. Thats like one hour out of 56 a week that you spend sleeping. If they can't give you that, then forget them.

The part of your mind that creates dreams, is selfish and greedy. Its always trying to trick you, force you to lose lucidity. It doesn't even want you to recall dreams.

That part of your mind is either not real, or a huge jerk. So I say do what you want.

If we can't trust our own minds, who can we trust?

Seriously though, that's interesting. Perhaps different parts of our mind that we don't use while we're awake work while we're asleep and sort of have their own "personality", separate from our conscious control.

Originally posted by Loegaire
If we can't trust our own minds, who can we trust?

I don't think we can trust our own conscious minds. There are alot of influences that will cause us to become blinded. We are lying to ourselves on a daily basis, just to go on surviving. I hope that I can reach a place through LDing within my subconscious that will help me to realize these lies that I am telling myself everyday. We are all a bit dillusional.

I agree with what Leo Volont said about FAs. I think that our deaming minds try to use these to tell us we are going in the wrong direction, and can actually help us. One time I had an FA and realized I was dreaming right away(as I usually do). I walked out of my bed and was attempting to get into Howetzer's dream for the dream sharing experiment. I said to myself, when I open my bedroom door, his dream will be on the other side. I opened the door but it was just my house. I continued on for awhile. Then all of a sudden I had the EXACT same FA. But this time, it was almost like I had gone back in time, because I saw myself walking up to the door. Well I know that it didn't work the first time so I jumped out of my bed and grabbed the other "me" that was already there, about to open the bedroom door, and turned her around and I remember telling her that it wasn't going to work. What happened from there was one of the strangest experiences ever. I won't elaborate...but this has truly caused me to believe that FAs are in deed there to aid us in finding the right path.

Wow that sounds very odd


i recently had a dream where I woke up, but I wasn lucid before I woke up(or maybe I was) and maybe my mind was trying to turn me away from luciding I dunno lol

Originally posted by Aquanina


I don't think we can trust our own conscious minds. There are alot of influences that will cause us to become blinded. We are lying to ourselves on a daily basis, just to go on surviving. I hope that I can reach a place through LDing within my subconscious that will help me to realize these lies that I am telling myself everyday. We are all a bit dillusional.

I agree with what Leo Volont said about FAs. I think that our deaming minds try to use these to tell us we are going in the wrong direction, and can actually help us. One time I had an FA and realized I was dreaming right away(as I usually do). I walked out of my bed and was attempting to get into Howetzer's dream for the dream sharing experiment. I said to myself, when I open my bedroom door, his dream will be on the other side. I opened the door but it was just my house. I continued on for awhile. Then all of a sudden I had the EXACT same FA. But this time, it was almost like I had gone back in time, because I saw myself walking up to the door. Well I know that it didn't work the first time so I jumped out of my bed and grabbed the other \"me\" that was already there, about to open the bedroom door, and turned her around and I remember telling her that it wasn't going to work. What happened from there was one of the strangest experiences ever. I won't elaborate...but this has truly caused me to believe that FAs are in deed there to aid us in finding the right path.

Oh!

Thank you, Nina.

I was out taking a walk (I should say I was out taking a 'limp') when I had something of an epiphany about this Wisdom of Lucid Dreaming business we have all been discussing, and being an old man, almost entirely forgot it by the time I returned home. But Nina reminded me of it...

you see, in Nature, in ordinary Dreaming, the Dream Self and the Waking Self really are two very separate Personas. We have that First Person experience when we are dreaming and so we think that is ourself, but simply examine the behaviors and attitudes of this basic Dream Self and you must know that it is a different being from our Waking Self.

so, what do Lucid Dreams do? A Lucid Dream brings the Waking Self directly into contact with the Dream Self so that there can be some melding -- some waking conscious influence upon the Dream Self. The way that the Subconscious Mind is supposed to influence our Conscious Behavior. Well, a Lucid Dream does this, only in reverse. It is the Conscious Mind having an opportunity to form some sort of coordination with the Subconscious Mind. The Lucid Dreamer has an opportunity to moralize the Dream Self, and to give the Dream Self conscientious goals. Before where the Dream Self may have circled about in the Dream World -- the Subconsious, or the Collective Mind -- without any discernable goal besides running from Fear and running toward Pleasure; now, with Lucid Dreaming the Dream Self, merged with the Waking Self can be convinced of a Higher End. There can be aspiration. there can be achievement.

That is the Purpose of Lucid Dreaming.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Aquanina\\\")</div>

I don't think we can trust our own conscious minds. There are alot of influences that will cause us to become blinded. We are lying to ourselves on a daily basis, just to go on surviving. I hope that I can reach a place through LDing within my subconscious that will help me to realize these lies that I am telling myself everyday. We are all a bit dillusional. [/b]

Good point Aquanina!
I think Awareness is the key. To consistantly try to anylyize what information that we are processing and try to realize what is an illuson and what is not.

And Leo Volent, about us being able to meld with our subconcious. I wonder with enough fortitude if we could gain this insite on a consious, waking life basis, consistantly?
Since both really could be construded as subjective in there existance you would think that, well, everything is relative.
I know that sounds cliche(sp?) but it seems the older I get the more that everything seems to have relavance to the next thing. So waking life, sleeping, lucid, conscious, subconscious or what ever. They may all be connected in some fashion.

this topic makes me wonder... listen up guys there was a thread by someone who said beware about your authoritty. If you lucid a lot and you go around DESTROYING everything that your mind made up you will get challenged. Cause your mind will kick you out or make you more law abbiding. Dreams are a wonderful thing, so is lucid dreaming but dont overuse it try to be polite to the more intellegent characters try to find the answer cause unless someone adopts me cause i suck i will never find it

Originally Posted by Dashival

For all we know there could be people in our brains that get to run and play during our dreams, and lucid dreaming interferes in their time..

It's my brain! I'll do with it what I please, even if my brain objects!

I believe the sad truth is that this question is un-answerable at the moment. In order to answer this, we need a concrete definition of consciousness as this has yet to be accomplished. The best attempts so far seem to be in the quantum field.

Even in terms of quantum definement, where consciousness is simply the ability to perceive waves in a consistent solid/particle state, you need to discover what qualities are needed in order for such a "conscious observer" (to observe these actual waves in particle state we call reality). If we are to uncover these qualities, then it would be possible to understand whether or not consciousness can exist within itself. If that is possible, then the answer to your question is yes, are could exist people (consciousness) with-in our own mind.


Then again... if you look at yourself as a conscious being, the people in your dreams would have to be conscious as well as they are apart of your consciousness! Ah, this is very interesting. I wish I had a better understanding of all of this.

But what about the idea of collective consciousness? If now, because these "people" are apart of your consciousness therefore being conscious themselves, they would all be the same consciousness, so it would make no difference. Aye the confusion.

Does any of this make sense?

I just feel that before any of this can be discussed, we must define consciousness,and that seems impossible.

The Dc saying that could only be a thought the person had about LDing. Our subconscious is not that smart.


If he/she thought it to him/herself asbout LDing, like "LDs could do bad to me because of..." then it could be taken in our dreams.




And LDing would never be harmful. Even for the best LDer, not all of the dreams are lucid. Especially the first ones in the night.

Originally Posted by sweetshoes18

Even in terms of quantum definement, where consciousness is simply the ability to perceive waves in a consistent solid/particle state, you need to discover what qualities are needed in order for such a "conscious observer" (to observe these actual waves in particle state we call reality). If we are to uncover these qualities, then it would be possible to understand whether or not consciousness can exist within itself. If that is possible, then the answer to your question is yes, are could exist people (consciousness) with-in our own mind.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that in Multiple Personality Disorder, patients actually experience a sort of dichotomy of their brains into two separate conscious entity, each believing themselves to be the "real one", if you will.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that dream characters have any sort of consciousness to them, as they don't seem to show any particular amount of intelligence or even cognizant thought processes.

Those damn DCs are trying to take over my mind. I NEED TO INTERFERE OR ELSE THEY'LL SACRIFICE ME TO THE MINOTAURS!!!!!!

You have two options:

1. DC's are supernatural characters or real, divine sent beings to help you
2. DC's are created by your brain as you sleep.

I personally believe number 2. Have you ever had a conversation with a DC? They talk crap eventually. It is quite remarkable to think that you're brain is creating them. They are just in your head - you aren't disturbing them or taking their time - you create them when you dream.

It seems to me, that the reason we have more false awakenings during Lucid Dreams is a simple one. Well... its pretty much the only time in a dream, when you would be thinking about the idea of waking up. Your thoughts are obviously creating your dream. your every thought and feeling alters the dream world. My subconscious actually helps me to become Lucid. by putting me in the most likely situations for me to realize I am dreaming.
Then it's up to me to realize it. I believe that the subconscious, highly approves of the conscious, Becoming Lucid. Because it's a huge step in the process of greater self knowledge. Your subconscious would not try and hinder that process. But the conscious mind can hinder itself, through its own ideas and beliefs.

As far as interfering with the lives of DCs...they don't have to work jobs and pay bills and bear children and buy gasoline and pay taxes and watch their drinking and quit smoking and fix the water heater and apologize to the neighbors for the dog shitting in their yard and get the car tuned for $800 and listen to their bosses and...but then of course I could be wrong.

We only meet our DCs for a few minutes out of the day. I'd assume most of mine are cool with me, seeing as I haven't killed too many of them.