Dreaming and Psychedelics

So, I have been curious about this. I don't see a whole lot of discussion of the topic. I'm not asking whether it's a good idea to take psychedelics while attempting to LD (though I'd rather not try it, as psychedelics keep me up), just wondering how the effects might be similar. I mean, taking a psychedelic launches a person into an awake/dream state. Is that similar at all to dreaming in general? I'm wondering how the sciences of each might align. Have any psychonauts found that they have better dream control with psychedelic practice or vice versa? I figure drugs and dreams probably have something in common, but I'm not sure what.

No, it would be a terrible idea, for the exact reason you've stated. Psychedelics keep you awake, they're significantly stimulating, even the dreamier ones. But for the record, I know people who've fallen asleep while tripping for various reasons (even one guy who just had no problem going to sleep on acid o.o) and they say their dreams weren't really any different, though they didn't lucid dream. In my opinion psychedelics are nothing like lucid dreaming, and honestly not even really that similar to regular dreaming. Though, one aspect that they do share with regular dreams is that you're not in control, they are. They put your mind in the same somewhat delirious setting at higher doses and as a result are really not controllable, at least not in a hands-on way like lucid dreaming is. And at those high doses where things like ego death begin to show up, comparing it to dreaming is pretty pointless. In the very heavy trips, like DMT usually gives, there will be some shared architecture in the way that most out-of-body experiences (including dreams) seem to work on some similar mechanism, but they're really not justifiably comparable. Just my two cents.

Thank you, that was a very good reply. :) Maybe I'm thinking too simplistically. I figured that hallucinations are a central part of dreaming, and drugs that cause hallucinations may act on similar mechanisms, but that may not be the case at all -- the brain is complicated as hell. I also forgot about ego death... I guess that's not a regular feature of lucid dreams.

Yeah, it's normally not, but take a look at this little treat from the Dream Interpretation subforum that showed up yesterdey. :)

http://www.dreamviews.com/f30/white-light-127478/

Very interesting indeed.... But, the white light was never reserved solely for psychedelic trips, but it shows a little bit how they are related, going back, I think, to how I said all OBEs seem to work by some shared process. It's not at all a large step in thinking to assume that dreams would work like hallucinogens, but I think psychedelics are a bad place to start. And I'm sure the way dreams are formed uses a combination of the methods that different types of hallucinogens use and in various ways that a drug alone may not exactly replicate.

If I were to pick the type of hallucinogen that would be closest to dreaming, I'd have to say anticholinergic deliriants. Sadly, they're not really safe or good for you, unlike psychedelics. But I have unfortunately dabbled a little bit in them and they do create a very dream-like delirium. Not exactly the same, but closer than anything else I've tried. If you haven't read up on them any, try reading trip reports on Erowid about datura. Even if not for the information, those things can be pretty funny too because it makes people go totally insane. :lol:

Here's something interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvzTWT85LGE

Ah yes, I'm familiar with NeuroSoup of YouTube, hadn't spotted this vid though, at least not since I've been interested in LD. I think she's a bit wacky, personally, but interesting nonetheless. For example, the DMT being produced in the brain comment has shown to have no verifiable source. It's a myth in drug culture. Some of the other ideas may be worth trying, like taking a drug in an LD or having better effects for a while after having tripped. And I love that LDing is free, no substances needed. I bet if I smoke a joint in my dream I'll still be able to pass piss tests. :)

Alyzarin, I've seen it hypothesized that ego death may actually be what causes hallucinations during psychedelic trips -- there is certainly a correlation, though they might be be separate mechanisms and higher dosages lead to both features being augmented. It seems to me that the less aware of "you" you are, the more easily you can accept the hallucinations and illusions around you. When you experience intense ego death it's as if fear, bliss, anger, and happiness become unreal and all that's left is curiosity -- in my own experience, anyway. It's interesting that a few people can achieve this in a dream.

I have read about datura on erowid and subsequently decided to stay away from it. :) My friends and family are nervous about me taking regular psychedelics, much less potentially poisonous deliriants that make people act out-of-control. SP is a very good thing, in the end...

Anyway, I don't imagine I'll be taking psychedelics in the near future. I have some San Pedro and Peyote growing, but those won't be ready for several years.

NeuroSoup is a little... odd. And somewhat sketchy from what I hear. I'd be cautious believing the things she has to say, except for some objective drug info. The DMT theory has definitely been revoked, by the same person who originally made it. Actually, I think there is proof that it exists in the brain, but not yet that it serves any significant purpose. It's left over from the metabolism of tryptamine by tryptamine N-methyltransferase, as is bufotenin from serotonin, and 5-MeO-DMT from mexamine (if I'm not mistaken). I've never taken drugs in lucids before (but I got close once!) but I have taken plenty in regular dreams before. :P Generally the effects are remarkably similar, but not always.

Ego death certainly contributes many effects to the trip, but I don't know if I'd believe that it's all because of ego death. Drugs that would support that theory, in my opinion, would be ones like shrooms, but then there are others that wouldn't necessarily. I've tripped pretty hard without even the slightest amount of ego loss before. Drugs like 2C-I will provide experiences like especially frequently.

Mmm, I wish I had some peyote growing. :drool: Lucky! I envy future you. :P

Lol, Aly. I like you. Good community here. :)

Well... that was all my questions! :p

Thank you. :chuckle: I like you too, we can always use more people who are interested in psychedelics. :) And yes, it's a pretty awesome community. :content:

I'm glad I could help!