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Does anyone here think Lucid Dreaming is against christanity? Much like ESP and such?
I'm just wondering, and I wanna know what you guys think about it.
Personaly, I don't think its 'evil'. I mean, all your doing is realizing your dreaming, and then controling the dream. If dreaming is evil, we might as well all go to hell now.
*nods*
I don't think it could be offensive for any religion, and sence you don't do anything but think in them, you can't really do anything wrong.
I think that it really depends on what you dream about. I mean, obviously, if you were dreaming about flying, I don't see much harm in that, but if you were killing, having sex, or kidnapping the pope (or the president, your choice [actually that's not a bad idea :D ]
I guess I don't understand how ESP could even be against Christianity. To think that dreaming (or even lucid dreaming) would send you to hell is simply ridiculous. Dreaming is part of a person's subconscious and can't be controlled (strictly speaking). So are these same people that say that dreaming and ESP are evil, going to try to say that the Pope (for example) never has dreams? Come on.
I wouldn't have thought that lucid dreaming would be looked down upon by christianity, though contacting dream guides and having contact with 'entities' in your dreams would probably be equated with the devil or some such madness.
Doesn't really matter whether we dream or not, lucid dream or not, do anything or just exist, we still go to hell.There are numerous religions claiming to be \"the right Paths\" and people who do not follow them, go to hell. If there is more than one religion claiming that, we can derive that everybody goes to hell.Quote:
Originally posted by YamiAnaki
... If dreaming is evil, we might as well all go to hell now...
- We wouldn't want that, would we.Quote:
Originally posted by burns91+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burns91)</div>Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't bible say that you have to believe and act by every word written in this fictional piece of writing?Quote:
I guess I don't understand how ESP could even be against Christianity. [/b]
The bible forbids every sort of spiritual development, would that be developing clairvoyance or just simple dream control, claiming them to be the creations of Satan. Some centuries ago, people would be (and they were) tortured and burnt for having developed spiritually to have the abilities to heal others or take a glimpse at the future.
Let me lay before you the phrase from the book that some people tend to use for their brains, that clearly bans the occult from thir life.
By the bible, the occult is simply a continuation of the ancient Satanic deception.Quote:
Originally posted by Deuteronomy 18:9-12@
When you come into the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur (that is, an enchanter, one who looks for and uses omens), or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Genesis 3:5
Go beyond what God has appointed and you shall become like God.
All forms of the occult present us with a similar temptation: will we act like humble children of the "heavenly father" and submit to god's wisdom in limiting our knowledge and power, or will we taste the fruit that can make us "wise" and claim the power that "belongs to god". (The power that actually is our natural skill, which we can develop further)
Everyone's own choice to pick between being the servant and being the master.
Hah, you know what this reminds me of? That case with the Polybius game or whatever. Something about them making a game... and kids getting these weird effects... and people blaming the game... much like the GTA case causing people to murder other ppl :D but back to the subject.
There is actually a (Christian?) religion that thinks all of this is horrible. I know because my mom is of this religion (Jehovah's Witnesses [JW]) and they are against all sorts of witchcraft and wizardry... even against reading the Harry Potter books or playing any video games that are rated M or AO... or anything of the sort... but anyway... IMHO the JW are wrong. But yeah, it's everyone's own personal opinion whether to believe in it or not.
Again, IMHO, just controlling your dreams (something that your brain comes up with subconciously) is not wrong. If you can come up with a damn good reason why it is wrong, then I'll consider it... Also, ESP? It's all bull... just ways to get money. (IMHO) so I see nothing wrong with it ;)
hah, isnt it just silly when relgions choose what is wrong and what is right for us?? Anyways, Im an athesis, and the cloest to God ive ever been is myslef in a nice ginat WILD. ;) hehe
yeh I agree, don't any Christians take this as an insult but I think christiany stifles the potential for individuality in people and produces people who blindly follow the word of a 'god' whose very existence cannot be proved.Quote:
hah, isnt it just silly when relgions choose what is wrong and what is right for us?? Anyways, Im an athesis, and the cloest to God ive ever been is myslef in a nice ginat WILD.[/b]
A lot of my views of Christianity have been influenced by what little I’ve read of Nietzsche, and I agree with nietzschse's view that a people should focus on achieving things in this world and define their own morales outside of the sphere of organisations rather than relying on the teachings of the church.
In religions, as in any other community, you'll have some people and/or congregations that are very xenophobic, reacting negatively against anything or anyone outside their experience. You'll have others who are natural explorers, seeking to understand and accept what is different. Both types will probably believe the texts/teachings of the religion are on their side, and show you numerous examples to prove it.
In other words, just because you encounter an ignorant person who claims a certain belief system doesn't mean you have to condemn the entire belief system. I'm fairly certain "Christianity" has no view on LDs, though the OT has some very positive accounts of dream revelation and dream interpretation (I'm thinking Joseph and Ezekiel).
Pretty much any religion but shamanism would discourage or be indifferent toward LDing for someone on a dedicated spiritual path, much as they would discourage seeking clairvoyance or powers, because such things can be showy distractions and accomplish very little.
For a work-a-day lay person, however, LDs are harmless and can even be helpful as a kind of therapy.
Again, I'd have to argue.Quote:
- - any religion but shamanism - - [/b]
Defining the word religion, it is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, an institution to express belief in a divine power or an organized system of belief that generally seeks to understand purpose, meaning, goals, and methods of spiritual things.
Everywhere in this definition we encounter the word belief. And this is the very thing that shamanism is not. Shamanism is humanity's oldest and one of the closest forms of relationship to Spirit. The forms of shamanism may vary in places very distant from each other, but the main ideas stay the same. Note that this is not obtained through dogmas or written or spoken laws that people mustn't break - it's collected through directly communicating with the Spirit. Nothing is taken from written books of some kind, everything is obtained through personal practise and activity in this field.
A shaman is a woman or man who changes his or her state of consciousness, at will, in order to contact and/or travel to another reality to obtain power and knowledge.
I'm a Christian myself, but I see nothing about Lucid Dreaming that would suggest wrongdoing. God gave people dreams AND Lucid Dreams (visions) in the Bible, so he must not have anything against them. Take the entire book of Revelation, God gave John a vision or LD. If God gives us dreams, they are not a sin. Perhaps if you use dreams to contact other "powers" or "beings" other than God himself, then it crosses another line. I think it is only a sin when you try to achieve things that God did not give us to power to do, some of which are specifically outlined in the Bible.
I think trying to do some things crosses over into allowing the "evil forces" (or whatever you personally call them) to control what is happening. Maybe some ESP is real, maybe some people do see ghosts, but I don't think it is natural, but are things devised by evil spirits. For now I simply stick with dreams, and pray that God will show me if I do something that is wrong. I do attempt OBEing, but I don't know whether that is a God-given gift we are able to achieve, or if it is real or not, or involves evil influence, I don't know.
All I know is that LDing is acceptable. Also I know that my opinions here are probably a minority.
My religion accepts that (in fact, my friends can't wait for me to tell them what I did in a LD/***-**)...My religion is Crescent View...& one time, I told the leader of my religion that I play telephone w/Michelle & guess at Card Concentration, & he seemed to accept that!Quote:
Originally posted by Matchbook
I'm a Christian myself, but I see nothing about Lucid Dreaming that would suggest wrongdoing. *God gave people dreams AND Lucid Dreams (visions) in the Bible, so he must not have anything against them. *Take the entire book of Revelation, God gave John a vision or LD. *If God gives us dreams, they are not a sin. *Perhaps if you use dreams to contact other \"powers\" or \"beings\" other than God himself, then it crosses another line. *I think it is only a sin when you try to achieve things that God did not give us to power to do, some of which are specifically outlined in the Bible. *
I think trying to do some things crosses over into allowing the \"evil forces\" (or whatever you personally call them) to control what is happening. *Maybe some ESP is real, maybe some people do see ghosts, but I don't think it is natural, but are things devised by evil spirits. *For now I simply stick with dreams, and pray that God will show me if I do something that is wrong. *I do attempt OBEing, but I don't know whether that is a God-given gift we are able to achieve, or if it is real or not, or involves evil influence, I don't know.
All I know is that LDing is acceptable. *Also I know that my opinions here are probably a minority.
Not Crescent View. The only people that go there are those who held powers in Crescent View, then totally rebelled against it... There are actually 3 areas that you can go to, depending on your behavior...but I am not going to preach here...figure it out yourself!Quote:
Doesn't really matter whether we dream or not, lucid dream or not, do anything or just exist, we still go to hell.There are numerous religions claiming to be \"the right Paths\" and people who do not follow them, go to hell. If there is more than one religion claiming that, we can derive that everybody goes to hell.[/b]
I think if your religion has specific scripture prohibiting it, it might be. I guess different things are prohibited in different religions, but I dont think so with christianity. If there is verses that refer to it I'd love to hear them.
Seems to me that it would be silly for any religion to try to "prohibit" lucid dreaming, since some people do it naturally without even trying.
But then, some religions have been known to do stranger things.
While one can practice a generic sort of shamanism, as a contemporary westerner taking the "shaman" moniker might, most shamanic lineages do entail specific beliefs about entities or powers outside of normal perception, who impact the human realm. No, the beliefs and practices aren''t outlined in books, because most shamanic lineages emerged from preliterate cultures, and shamanism to some extent denies the consensus reality of written language. You seem to be making the "it's not a religion, it's the religion" argument here. All religions taken broadly do include mystic lineages entailing direct contact with the faith's central Mystery, be it the Godhead, Nirvana, Spirit, or what have you.Quote:
Originally posted by psychedelic
Again, I'd have to argue.Quote:
- - any religion but shamanism - -
Defining the word religion, it is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, an institution to express belief in a divine power or an organized system of belief that generally seeks to understand purpose, meaning, goals, and methods of spiritual things.
Everywhere in this definition we encounter the word belief. And this is the very thing that shamanism is not. Shamanism is humanity's oldest and one of the closest forms of relationship to Spirit. The forms of shamanism may vary in places very distant from each other, but the main ideas stay the same. Note that this is not obtained through dogmas or written or spoken laws that people mustn't break - it's collected through directly communicating with the Spirit. Nothing is taken from written books of some kind, everything is obtained through personal practise and activity in this field.
A shaman is a woman or man who changes his or her state of consciousness, at will, in order to contact and/or travel to another reality to obtain power and knowledge.[/b]
I have a soft spot for shamanism myself, as it was my early, instinctive way of relating to the world, but you ignore the bulk of shamanic history if you exclude its various forms from the class of religions.
Tygrhawk made a good point. Some kids and adults get lucid dreams naturally, so it's not like you can really prohibit that. Or have it as being 'evil'.
I don't think it's evil, and I don't think Christianity actually says anything about lucid dreaming in paticular. However I'm not associated with the bible as much as, well, a christian, so don't take my word for it.
Anything that happens in this world, whether it be tangible or not, must be natural or it would never happen to begin with. To say something isn't "natural" is to not accept reality. Even if it's "ghosts" or "evil" - it's still natural or it would never happen at all. Does that make any sense to anyone?Quote:
Maybe some ESP is real, maybe some people do see ghosts, but I don't think it is natural, but are things devised by evil spirits.[/b]
Thats not nessisarly true. They belive homosexuality is evil, but there are some people who were just born that way.Quote:
Some kids and adults get lucid dreams naturally, so it's not like you can really prohibit that. Or have it as being 'evil'. [/b]
Yes, Lucid Dreaming IS against Christianity, if you understand Christianity to be the Church of Paul's Doctrines. Paul was very clear on the point -- that everything but his own doctrines were to be rejected. Paul did not even except 'Angels of Light'. Paul demanded absolute loyalty and told his congregations to turn their backs on even the Original Apostles to Christ and any Divine Influence. This narrowness of Paul has been adopted as accepted "christian" doctrine. The Catholics have learned not to take Paul quite so seriously, but the Protestants swear by Paul. It is no accident that they refer to Paul's Letters as the Word of God, in order to make Paul equal, or even better than Christ Himself. They never quote Jesus and call it the Word of God. That compliment is reserved almost exclusively for the letters of Paul.Quote:
Originally posted by YamiAnaki
Does anyone here think Lucid Dreaming is against christanity? Much like ESP and such? *
I'm just wondering, and I wanna know what you guys think about it.
Personaly, I don't think its 'evil'. I mean, all your doing is realizing your dreaming, and then controling the dream. If dreaming is evil, we might as well all go to hell now.
*nods*
Christ would not have objected. Christ-like Archetypes have appeared in my dreams without protest, and we remember the Historical Christ to have said "seek and you will find". The Patriarch Joseph traded in Dream Interpretation. And the Earthly Step Father of Christ, Joseph, was guided more than once by his dreams. So, certainly, Dreams are not off limits within the more respectable areas of the Judeo-Christian territories.
Also, none of the Higher Religions of the World would have a problem with Spiritual Practice in Dreams. The Sufi Zoroastrians had even made quite an art of it. My own Gurus have guided me somewhat into a practice of Dream Yoga. So, Dreaming is not Un-Religious. It is just not in comformance to Paulist Christianity.
Now, with Lucidity in particular. There is Lucidity that can be used as a tool for spiritual development, and there if lucidity that can cut oneself off from the fountainhead of Spiritual Wisdom, if all control is taken away from the Higher Mind and the Spiritual Influences. I wrote an essay recently on the subject -- "Methods, Spiritual or Individualistic Lucid Dreaming"
depends on what you do in the dream. having sex would be lusting, which is sinning, or, if you are married it would be adultering, (yes, even thinking of it) unless it was your spouse...(but even that could turn into lusting...) so. pretty much, avoid that. anything else that seems immoral, i wouldnt do.Quote:
Does anyone here think Lucid Dreaming is against christanity? Much like ESP and such?
I'm just wondering, and I wanna know what you guys think about it.
Personaly, I don't think its 'evil'. I mean, all your doing is realizing your dreaming, and then controling the dream. If dreaming is evil, we might as well all go to hell now.
[/b]
And what if you find yourself doing those things in non-lucid dreams? Are you a sinner then? This seems to me like it's going down the slippery slope toward having "thought police". "1984" anyone? :|Quote:
Originally posted by lord soth
depends on what you do in the dream. having sex would be lusting, which is sinning, or, if you are married it would be adultering, (yes, even thinking of it) unless it was your spouse...(but even that could turn into lusting...) so. pretty much, avoid that. anything else that seems immoral, i wouldnt do.
christians try not to sin, its human nature to sin, so we all end up sinning. thats why its Gods GRACE that saves, not peoples actions, (if it were that way, we would be hopeless)
the "thought police" would be God, you just dont get charged until you die...Quote:
This seems to me like it's going down the slippery slope toward having \"thought police\". \"1984\" anyone?[/b]
Please do not take this personally, but consider the theology of your argument. I would say your Theology is Antichristical. First, you assume that Sin is a necessary part of human nature. Once Satan convinces us of that, has he not won his Battle already, hasn't he. Next, your argument dismisses all Human Effort and Good Works and supposes that if God wants Good in the World, he will have to do all the Work Himself. Again, this plays into Satan's Hand. "For Evil to Triumph it is necessary only that Good Men do nothing"... and here your doctrine recommends that Good Men not only to do nothing, but it teaches them they are only capable of producing Evil from Natures that are inherently Evil.Quote:
Originally posted by lord soth
christians try not to sin, its human nature to sin, so we all end up sinning. thats why its Gods GRACE that saves, not peoples actions, (if it were that way, we would be hopeless)
the \"thought police\" would be God, you just dont get charged until you die...[/b]Quote:
This seems to me like it's going down the slippery slope toward having \"thought police\". \"1984\" anyone?
Perhaps you should consider that all of these Antichristical Doctrines are traceable entirely to Paul and his Greek Gentile Congregations. Christ is better represented by the Sermon of the Mount -- chapters 5 through 7 of the Gospel of Mathew, where you have none of this advocacy of Sin. Indeed, the Christ of the Sermon on the Mount sums it all up by insisting that Humanity be Perfect just as God is perfect.
You see, when Satan was able to achieve the Victory of having the Messianic Christ Murdered (God conceding Satan his Victory because, well, Christ really had failed to sway the powerful Ruling Classes of Judah. So God thought, more than likely, "Well, to Hell with them." Anyway, Satan consolidated his Victory by sending Paul to obscure and contradict the Teachings of Christ. It was not enough to kill the Body of Christ, but his Teachings needed to be irradicated also.
Refer to Luke Chapter 2 -- the last Prophet of the Jewish Dispensation, Simeon, had predicted that "Christ would be Contradicted". Then we have the 3 Prophecies of Christ -- that there would be a Wide Way of Destruction, that there would be Weeds in the Wheat, and that there would be a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing. All that was realized in the person and doctrines of Paul the Antichrist.
We have internal evidence in the Bible that this was true. Rev 2:22 we have John congratulating the Church of Ephesus for tossing out a False Apostle. Then we have Paul admit to Timothy that the Church of Ephesus had forced him out of town and rejected his personal Doctrines. Then we can see that the Letters of James, Jude and John all argue against Salvation by Faith and insist upon Righteousness and the Teachings of Christ. Peter even warns that Paul's Writings would be misunderstood to the Destruction of those who would read his letters.
So, why the Popularity of Paul? Well, with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 and 71 A.D. the Church of Messianic Judaism was largely destroyed. Suddenly the hated and heretical minority of Paul's antichristical congregations were the last team still standing. With the destruction of most of the True Church, paul's satanic followers won their battle by default.
Ofcourse, it was not all one-sided. The Gospel of John shows a tension between True Doctrine and Antichristical Doctrine -- the Mixture of Weeds and Wheat which still persists within the Holy and Unholy Catholic Church.
good fucking thing im an atheistQuote:
Originally posted by lord soth
depends on what you do in the dream. having sex would be lusting, which is sinning, or, if you are married it would be adultering, (yes, even thinking of it) unless it was your spouse...(but even that could turn into lusting...) so. pretty much, avoid that. anything else that seems immoral, i wouldnt do.[/b]Quote:
Does anyone here think Lucid Dreaming is against christanity? Much like ESP and such?
I'm just wondering, and I wanna know what you guys think about it.
Personaly, I don't think its 'evil'. I mean, all your doing is realizing your dreaming, and then controling the dream. If dreaming is evil, we might as well all go to hell now.