I thought about this question recently, wondering what you all think?
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I thought about this question recently, wondering what you all think?
i don't know, but they can dream, so i guess they could.
but i'd like to know too!
I sure hope so! I'd love to see a dog do a reality check. :)
I highly doubt it. Firstly because if they have a NORMAL dream, They most likely have no idea wtf it is. And if they did manage to have a "lucid dream" they probably don't even know what it is. So you can't really call it "lucid" dreaming. (And don't try turning it around and saying "lots of people have lucid's without knowing what it is" atleast they know there dreaming, and that they're aware of it. Animals probably wouldn't know wtf is going on during a lucid dream. So as stated before. It can't really be called a lucid dream) [notice how I said things like "highly doubt". & "most likely". This is because there is no solid evidence to disprove the hypothesis, but I doubt any evidence will ever be found that confirms it]
It's been proven that many animals do dream. But I highly doubt they can lucid dream. They are not sentient like you or I. The conscious sense of self that is required to lucid dream is probably not present in any animal. It's what makes us humans unique. Our prefrontal cortex is very active during a lucid dream, but not nearly as much during a normal dream. So we can infer this to mean that the prefrontal cortex is probably pretty essential to achieving consciousness within a dream. Non-human animals have very little, to no, prefrontal cortex and many evolutionists believe it is the part of the brain that ultimately sets us apart from non-sentient primates and all other animals. So with that all in mind, I'll again suggest that no, animals probably cannot lucid dream.
Actually I heavily doubt that animals don't understand at least roughly what a dream is in case they have dreams. If they would have no way of keeping dream and reality apart, the result would be some really strange types of behaviour. Like a dog suddenly hating his long loved owner, just because he dreamt of something bad happening between the two of them. A cat constantly running against walls because it once was able to pass through walls in dreams.
And because of that I also think they can become lucid, I agree however that apart from that they'll most likely won't understand anything more, simply due to the fact they won't try to understand anything more. Not to mention the chance of them becoming lucid should be somewhere really close to 0, since they don't talk with anyone about their dreams, let alone give them thorough thought or something like that. And I saw animals doing strange things but no RCs so far.
Uh, Elephants show a conscious sense of self? As well as other animals that recognize themselves in mirrors...
But apart from that, Homo Sapiens obviously can LD so yeah.
Still, don't think they can "lucid dream" since thats a term invented by us and thus their experiences should be categorized in a different manner.
And agree with StaySharp, at least house-animals show some sentience of dreams, I have seen my cat wake up from a dream and she doesn't runs or gets shocked like a sleep-walking person does, same for dogs and other pets who enter REM.
I think it depends on the intelligence of the animal.
Dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees, etc.
I'm not sure though, no way to be certain.
http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/4566/mind-blown.gif
MIND = BLOWN..
Interesting question. As lucid dreaming continues to gain popularity, I am sure someone will do a study on this and find out for sure. I think some animals can lucid dream. Some humans were born with the ability to naturally do it, so I am sure some animals were as well. In their minds they probably think something a long the lines of: 'I know this isn't real life.' They would not be controlling the dream as much as we do, obviously but I am sure there are certain animals that have had lucid dreams.
Funny you say that Mancon, considering a high amount of naturals report that they don't exert control over the dreams and just know it is one.
They might be able to recognize themselves and be 'aware' of themselves. But that doesn't mean that they're consciously sentient. That's to say that we're fairly certain that animals aren't cognitive and able to 'think' like we can. They cannot think "oh, I'm in a dream." That's an ability that only humans have. And that's why I don't think they can lucid dream, or at least not in the same sense we can. Perhaps they can exert a certain amount of control over their dreams, reacting to a situation that they are not used to. But by definition, they would not be lucid dreaming because there is no way for them to 'think' that they are in a dream. Then again, research might prove me wrong. I don't think anyone can really say for certain right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
I think if any animals can LD, then it's probably apes.
(Apart from Humans, if people decide to be clever) :)
Uh you didn't read my post did you... thats the exact same thing I said below the thing you quoted <.<Quote:
Originally Posted by kevojy
Oh sorry, I did. I was just replying to your first part, oops, should have made that more clear. I completely agree with what you said. I was just elaborating a bit more on my opinion of how they probably can't lucid dream at all because they can't think about themselves like we can (though they can be aware of themselves).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif
I always wonder what the heck my dog is dreaming about. Does he understand what a dream is? Does he remember his dreams, at all? Is he ever lucid? Is he always lucid? What if we discovered animals were always lucid, and lucid dreaming is the "natural" way to dream? Our human inventions, like language, sense of self, ect, have screwed us over and ruined our dreams? I don't even know how we would begin to figure this out.
My dog had a lucid dream last night
How would you know that exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermac
Animal intelligence is far lower than of humans, and lucid dreaming comes from the brain. Also most humans can't lucid dream without practice. So an animal lucid dreaming without practice is very unlikely.
Um, there are naturals who start LDing at age 3, there is a good list of animals that are at the very least at the level of a 3 years old. Heck, even that of 4 years old level isn't that uncommon.
While im not psychologist or whatever, babies have like infinite REM :/
These lucid cheaters! But yeah, even if intelligence plays a big factor on LDing, that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of "major" animals.
Like Dolphins and Monkeys
I wrote a thoughtful post about this, explaining why animals, as far as we know, cannot LD because they lack self-awareness, live completely in a here & now world, do not have the necessary memory skills, etc, etc, etc. I even listed a couple of possible exceptions, like whales and higher primates. But then I erased it.
I simply felt this thread was just too silly to participate. Yes, guys, your dogs and cats certainly dream, but their existence in their dream is exactly the same as their existence in waking life, where they also lack the sentience needed to be lucid. It's not about intelligence, Hukif, it's about self-awareness.
I think the term is theory of mind, or anthropomorphism, but saying animals have LD's is giving them mental capabilities they simply do not have. Like it or not, with a few possible exceptions that are decidedly not house pets, animals are not like us. Sorry.
heh, I also explained that they can have self-awareness as far as we know, of course I never make really long posts like you do but yeah. They lack sentience? That idea is being abandoned quickly, a lot of birds are thought to have the ability to use language as well as some mammals, they seem to be self-concious too. Also when did we say they have lucid dreams? In fact I said that they can't because its a human term and thus can't be applied to them.
The word "bird" was invented by humans, but they aren't birds because it doesn't apply to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hukif