Defining hypnagogia, and the hypnic jerk, and WILD help

(Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place. Since it involves defining terms I am not sure what exactly it falls under.)

So far I've tried to do a WILD on two separate occasions, by going, "1 *inhale*, I'm dreaming *exhale*, 2, I'm dreaming, 3, I'm dreaming..."

The first time, I didn't even try that hard, I was in a comfortable chair and the light was on, I just wanted to get used to the feeling of it. The second time I tried more seriously, I was laying comfortable in bed after a WBTB. Neither were successful, but I didn't expect too much.

What happens to me is that after a while, my mind starts to 'drift' as it were and visualizations of random things pop into my head. Like, a cheese factory, or a waffle iron. Or a nonsensical snippet of speech. I don't consciously decide to think of these things, I just find myself thinking about them, but they are only very very slightly more vivid than something I would be consciously thinking of. These things would often cause me to briefly lose count. Once I resumed count the train of thought ended. Is this what hypnagogia is?

On my second attempt, I kept going through a few of those until I got to "93, I'm dreaming" and I had what I assume is called the hypnic jerk, am I correct? I moved my arm but I didn't consciously move it. It just moved and jolted me fully awake (yes I did a reality check). After that I gave up and hoped for a DILD which didn't come either.

So do my descriptions fit those terms? And how do I push on past those things, and what can I expect to feel next?

It may be hypnogogic stuff, but HH or HI are fairly obvious. They can be about anything from sounds to feelings, but they will be a realish seeming thing. It is not just daydreaming or wandering thoughts. It is like a drug induced state, what you experience is likely to be kind of obvious, like a bell ringing or some one calling your name. The visual stuff will have some actual color or visible intensity.

I can see one thing that you will want to change. You should not be reaching numbers as high as the 90's without getting drifty. Each time you get a distraction, just start over at 1. You will soon get to where you drift or get distracted before you reach 20 or so. The act of trying to remember your place, keep your place, or worry about if you miscounted, will keep your mind awake.

Never forget the one key thing in a WILD. You must fall asleep! Now, the real trick is how do you stay aware AND fall asleep? No easy answer, but that is what you are trying to do. Use the counting like this. If you must think about it at all, just start back at one. If you are getting distracted at around 12-25 breaths, then you are in the zone. You should be asleep, and staying rigidly focused is counter productive. Being able to count to 15 while asleep is actually impressive if you think about it! The mental focus it would take to count correctly will surely keep you awake, so let it be a auto-pilot activity, you are counting 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, pumpkins are pretty, they smell like pie,???, oh, 1,2,3,4,,,, and so on. However, if you are getting distracted before you reach 8 or 9 then you may be getting a little to unconcious, if yo are loosing count before 4 then you will need to pull a little more focus for just a moment. 1,2,3, that guy was a jerk, he looks like a frog, huh, 1,2,3 ferrets, deoderant, huh, 1,2, whats for lunch,,,, wait, what am I doing? ok, don't loose it, you are trying to dream, stay aware, ok, 1,2,3,4,5,,,,,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sivason

You must fall asleep! ... If you are getting distracted at around 12-25 breaths, then you are in the zone.

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That's a great point, sivason!

Many know about counting or other mantras to keep you aware, but it's great to emphasize, that loosing your place in counting, or jumbling up your mantra is actually desired. It also has to happen at the right time, not too soon, not too late.

My biggest problem with WILDing is, that I enter lucid dream while I'm still too awake. I can keep it like that for few seconds, but unless I fall asleep very fast after that, I wake up.

I wanted to offer a little on th breathing mantra you tried and may be it will make sense. The pattern you use and timing of breath is going to either help or inhibit the WILD process.

I would slow down how much you put into one inhalatin. I would not try to cram i am dreaming and also a count
Into just a inhalation.


Try one of these. Breath in= I am. Breath out=dreaming

Another with counting one. Inhale=dream,,,exhale=1,,,inhale=dream,,,,,exhale= 2

Hey OP don't give up. Takes time to find the right way of doing this. Actually reminds me of a pic I saw yesterday...

Attachment 3922

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sivason

It may be hypnogogic stuff, but HH or HI are fairly obvious. They can be about anything from sounds to feelings, but they will be a realish seeming thing. It is not just daydreaming or wandering thoughts. It is like a drug induced state, what you experience is likely to be kind of obvious, like a bell ringing or some one calling your name. The visual stuff will have some actual color or visible intensity.

I can see one thing that you will want to change. You should not be reaching numbers as high as the 90's without getting drifty. Each time you get a distraction, just start over at 1. You will soon get to where you drift or get distracted before you reach 20 or so. The act of trying to remember your place, keep your place, or worry about if you miscounted, will keep your mind awake.

Never forget the one key thing in a WILD. You must fall asleep! Now, the real trick is how do you stay aware AND fall asleep? No easy answer, but that is what you are trying to do. Use the counting like this. If you must think about it at all, just start back at one. If you are getting distracted at around 12-25 breaths, then you are in the zone. You should be asleep, and staying rigidly focused is counter productive. Being able to count to 15 while asleep is actually impressive if you think about it! The mental focus it would take to count correctly will surely keep you awake, so let it be a auto-pilot activity, you are counting 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, pumpkins are pretty, they smell like pie,???, oh, 1,2,3,4,,,, and so on. However, if you are getting distracted before you reach 8 or 9 then you may be getting a little to unconcious, if yo are loosing count before 4 then you will need to pull a little more focus for just a moment. 1,2,3, that guy was a jerk, he looks like a frog, huh, 1,2,3 ferrets, deoderant, huh, 1,2, whats for lunch,,,, wait, what am I doing? ok, don't loose it, you are trying to dream, stay aware, ok, 1,2,3,4,5,,,,,

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I had a thought, what if you do WBTB and don't get up, the only physical thing you do is turn your alarm off then lie back down. Wouldn't this be easier because your mind is already in a sleepy state, all you have to do is maintain a certain level of awareness as your mind begins to drift back to sleep quickly. I tried this once and I ended up just falling asleep, but do you think this is worth trying consistently?

Also is it possible to prepare yourself for a DILD in case a WILD attempt fails as a backup? or is DILD really more of rolling the dice kind of deal?

Also when you are in a LD are you aware enough to be able to wake up on command? Should you be aware of your physical presence as well? If I touch someone who is in a LD will he feel this inadvertently in his dream or feel it on his body because he is also physically aware as much as he is mentally?

I have so many questions, I'm trying not to overwhelm

I am having problems like this as well

When I try to WILD, nothing happens
When I don't try, when I am actually trying to sleep - It happens and every time it does happen, I am caught off guard and it scares the crap out of me (Im talking about when you have that sensation change, you starting seeing faces, places - hearing things and feel heavy vibrations)

Benzilla, Just remember that the way to guarentee a failed WILD is to stay awake. You get further when you just try to sleep, because you do fall into sleep. Relax, stay aware, but not highly focused. I explain this as trying to sneak you waking mind past the gateway to sleep. The mind must be hiding subtly in the background, AND you must sleep.

BossMan, There is a pro and a con to that method. I do this often, but it is a little less effective. On the bright side you waste no time, it will work or not. The problem is if you do not take a couple minutes to recover true wakig awareness it is almost too easy to fall into normal unconcious sleep. Everyone should find a middle ground. Wake just long enough that you can think clearly, and so falling back to sleep will not be shorter than 1 minute. Try not to get so awoken that you will have a hard time getting back to sleep.


I think the best prep work for a DILD is a failed WILD. This is because you put mental intent into dreaming. If you use a mantra that has the word dream or dreaming in it, then it will really ncrease DILDs.

It is very possible to have some awareness of your real body. It depends on sleep stage and training. In any sleep stage I can take a moment and feel my real body. I can also then force myself to move, which will instantly wake me. In lighter sleep you can feel the a hint of your body without trying. I think in many cases someone touching you would just wake you up, but maybe in odd cases it would influence the dream.