Can a mind out grow Lucid dreaming?

So many questions and so little answers.
Concerning my topic I would like to think not and it naturally does not seem likely.
BUT!!!! It is something I have to consider.

I will try to summerize the whole process.
I have always been more of a logical thinker and my likes are based around such things. For example I would choose to watch a documentary over a Science fiction film. And so it goes with books, disscusion etc.
Having said that I will explain my concerns about outgrowing lucid dreams.
I used to lucid dream 3 to 4 times a week. My progresss was remarkable. As soon as I herd, read or concieved of an idea I was shure to evolve my lucid dreams to that point.
*I now do not lucid dream! :(
As I looked back through my dream journal, it was like reading a book with a beginning and an END! The entire process of my lucid dreaming experiances took my mind through a process until the point that my lucid dreams were no differant than my waking life.
So I have two theories.
1. I had had reached a point and am unaware of how to navigate any further.
or
2. My mind as how it performs things used LDs as a tool and is now finished with the process.

I would love to here more theories and advice on how I could become lucid agian. And rebuttle of my own ideas as well. Thank you!

hmmm...it could be a result of the first thing: You've run out of things to do.
or, you could have hit that dreaded 'dry spell'
What's your recall like? have you changed your lifestyle at all?
Was it a sudden cessation in lucid dreaming?
sorry for all the questions, i'm just trying to work out what's gone wrong where...
I find with lucid dreaming, i have a lot of 'big' dreams, in which i become steadily more aware of what it's like to be dreaming, and then 'bam' i have a lucid dream out of the blue.

Don't know if any of that is much help though...

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Originally posted by irishcream
hmmm...it could be a result of the first thing: *You've run out of things to do.
or, you could have hit that dreaded 'dry spell'
What's your recall like? *have you changed your lifestyle at all?
Was it a sudden cessation in lucid dreaming?
sorry for all the questions, i'm just trying to work out what's gone wrong where...
I find with lucid dreaming, i have a lot of 'big' dreams, in which i become steadily more aware of what it's like to be dreaming, and then 'bam' i have a lucid dream out of the blue.

Don't know if any of that is much help though...

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My dream recall is not bad. But it is not like it was. I began (or should I say, stared over) to record my dreams to get to recalling about three dreams per-night.

It was not a sudden. They just became more & more life like.

I have reluctantly waited this out before I posted this, for to see if it was a dry spell. Although it may be, I don't believe that is because it is going on close to four months. :P

I do work outside. The heat has been very very hot and I am exhausted at the end of the day . Wich I know can hinder LDs. However it is nothing that I have not lucid dreamt through before.

maybe it's just a phase...i went through a dryspell that lasted from april to july...so i wouldn't be too worried about it.
And i think the more you stress about it, the less likely you are to get back into it.
I'm definitely agreeing with that bit about having run out of ideas...that could be it. Especially if you've been lucid dreaming for a long, long time.
The only limit is your imagination. Maybe you could try reading something 'frivolous' like a sci fi or fantasy novel...try exploring worlds or something...or have you already done that? :P

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Originally posted by irishcream
maybe it's just a phase...i went through a dryspell that lasted from april to july...so i wouldn't be too worried about it.
And i think the more you stress about it, the less likely you are to get back into it.
I'm definitely agreeing with that bit about having run out of ideas...that could be it. *Especially if you've been lucid dreaming for a long, long time.
The only limit is your imagination. *Maybe you could try reading something 'frivolous' like a sci fi or fantasy novel...try exploring worlds or something...or have you already done that? :P

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I am truely not stressed over it. More perplexed.
And as far as running out of things to do :o That is certainly not the case. I can't even concieve of running out of things to do in a scenario where you have no boundaries.
But it is as if my mind/ or subconcious was altamaitly running through a elaborate process to wich I ultimatly had no control...At least to wich I am aware of.

Good point. I have ettemted to watch more sci-fi movies and dabble with a few fiction books as well. Nothing yet.
Thanks for your input Irishcream!

Dear Howetzer,

Yes, Lucid Dreaming brings to Dreaming a developmental tool which starts the integration of the Conscious Mind to that of the Dreaming Mind. Conscious moral perspectives and spiritual ambitions can be brought into the dream realm. But after a certain time these waking perspectives and attitudes are fully absorbed by the Dreaming Mind, and then it becomes cumbersome for the Dreaming Mind to continue on with the schizophrenia of surrendering to the discontinuity of the Waking Mind. Afterall, I have always seen the problem of Lucidity at least momentarily interrupting the smooth flow of Dream Content. Dreams DO have a purpose all their own, and Lucidity, where it insists upon Dream Control, often moves in to thwart the agendas of ordinary Dream Content.

So, when after having gone through a complete course of Lucid Dreaming, the Dreaming Mind has become familiar with the Higher Moral Objectives of Waking Consciousness, and has in effect integrated into corporation with waking consciousness, then, the Dreaming Self can operate uninterruptedly in Dreams without having to be compromised by the disruptions of lucidity.

As I've said before, in recent years I've noticed my Dreaming Self applying all of the old Lucid Tricks but without my becoming technically Lucid. Now, consider, if your dream self is doing everything that you would do if you were lucid, then why add the now unnecessary step of being lucid. It becomes an obsolete tool.

Also, I was reading some of those Essays that somebody posted a URL to, and some are facinating. Check this one out: http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/selling.htm It was co-written by Dr. Ann Faraday, a famous Dream Guru from the 70's, who published some of the first theories about Lucid Dreaming. This essay now comes out and confesses that much of the research back then, involving anthropological studies of aboriginal groups and their use of Dreaming, that much of the research was falsified and exaggerated. We find now that these cultures did not see Lucid Dreaming as an end in itself, but only as an elementary and remedial tool for people who need to correct dream dysfunctions. healthy dreamers do not need lucidity.

Thank you leo!
That is a very interesting article.
What you say does in fact fit so well with how my dreaming scenario has played out.
Most of my lucid dreams had evoled with my own Conscious moral perspectives and spiritual ambitions. And as you pointed out it was as if my dreaming mind had absorbed the content it needed.

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Originally posted by leo Volent+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(leo Volent)</div>

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So, when after having gone through a complete course of Lucid Dreaming, the Dreaming Mind has become familiar with the Higher Moral Objectives of Waking Consciousness[/b]

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This is also in perspective to my waking life. As I ultimatly have discovered that there seems no subjective differances between being lucid while awake or lucid while in a dream.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volent
As I've said before, in recent years I've noticed my Dreaming Self applying all of the old Lucid Tricks but without my becoming technically Lucid. Now, consider, if your dream self is doing everything that you would do if you were lucid, then why add the now unnecessary step of being lucid. It becomes an obsolete tool.

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So pardon my ignorance, but I now stand where?????
Where do I go form here?
And why can't my mind dabble in the broad spectrum of fanatasies of the lucid dream world?

Howetzer,

Because you are probably not going to change your lifestyle and interests entirely just for the purpose of LDing, you can still do things that will help. Waking exercises come to mind. If you are mostly practicing logic and straightline thinking in daily life, do exercises that deviate from that. Spend a few minutes each day daydreaming. Close your eyes and dream up a situation and play it out, and be sure to let your imagination run wild. Don't constrain it at all. Also, try doing the same thing right as you are going to bed while in bed. Play out some scenarios, and then do little reality checks while in those scenarios and visualize yourself becoming lucid.

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Originally posted by irishcream

The only limit is your imagination. *Maybe you could try reading something 'frivolous' like a sci fi or fantasy novel...try exploring worlds or something...or have you already done that? :P

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I agree, perhaps you have been so technical that you're dreams have taken on that persona as well. Eliminating anything imaginary and impossible. Reading and watching anything sci-fi would probably boost your imagination. Another thing that could help is just to imagine yourself in these sci-fi settings and such doing impossible things throughout the day, but i understand if that seems a little to much

I believe that dreams transition from one kind to another or "evolve" as one continues to lucid dream. Perhaps this is just one of those stages as well? I'm merely guessing.

The best of luck to you! If there's any improvement or change then keep us informed. Im very interested to see how this turns out

I have had my best streaks of lucid dreaming at times when I was the most gung ho about pulling it off. That makes me think that maybe you got so used to lucid dreaming that you stopped making as big of a deal out of it in your waking life, so one of the major sparks that was making you have lucid dreams was no longer there. If you get enthusiastic and obsessed with it during your waking life again, it will probably come back to you.

Leo, you made an interesting point. You said that once your purposes in lucid dreaming are met in non-lucid dreams, there is no point in being lucid. I can see where you are coming from on that, but I think one of the major pluses of lucidity is the ability to appreciate the crazy world you are in. In non-lucid dreams, you don't get a chance to look around and go, "Wow! Check this out!"

Oh Leo!! :holyshit:

I truly hope you are mistaken! My lucidity has also decreased over time. From 3-4 times a week to once a week with two week dry spells.

Perhaps I am being childish, but I, and I suspect Howetzer as well am not yet ready to give up lucid dreaming.

I had a very similar experience - a 10 month period where I had about 10 lucid dreams total.

Right now I can partially understand why that happened.
-Believing (at least on some level) that you cant lucidly dream greatly hinders your ability to LD
- Lifestyle greatly affects LDing
-Supplements/food you are eating affects lucid dreaming.
- Confidence is very important ! A spark of confidence can bring your LDs back
- Laziness and lack of motivation can make you stop practicing technique - a big mistake!

there are many more factors and it might take a while to identify them all....

Personally I relied too much on a single method of achieving LDs(which was extremely effective) and when this method crumbled under the RL pressure, lack of time and motivation, I've lost my ability to LD for a very long time. All I had left was knowledge of LDing and as you can imagine, knowledge alone is not enough to achieve lucidity...

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Originally posted by Seeker
Oh Leo!! :holyshit:

I truly hope you are mistaken! My lucidity has also decreased over time. From 3-4 times a week to once a week with two week dry spells.

Perhaps I am being childish, but I, and I suspect Howetzer as well am not yet ready to give up lucid dreaming.

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Well, it doesn't seem to effect Splash or me much...but I do know this. I haven't ever given up, even though for the past 5 years, I have suffered a few dry spells (I still LD, but I completely forget the LD, & can be VERY forgetful for about a week). Splash has gone through the same as well (I really had to help her!), but she & I never give up! & neither should you 2, b/c you influence us all!

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Originally posted by Ev

- Laziness and lack of motivation can make you stop practicing technique - a big mistake!
*

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I am not him, and I am not even on his level of expertise, but it seems to me that the above would be the best explanation, and it would probably result from the other big explanation, which I mentioned earlier-- lack of obsession.

I have never been able to have more than three in one week, and that is a REALLY good week for me. It seems that lucid dreaming is not like riding a bike. You have to keep teaching yourself how to do it to keep doing it.

My best streaks of lucid dreaming happen when I quit doing drugs. That is partially because of a clearer head, but it is also because the lack of drugs has me craving a new outlet, and lucid dreaming is the ultimate mind alteration outlet. That gets me craving lucid dreams, which has me practicing for them more and having them more. (In fact, I have never had a lucid dream during a drug period, even though drugs suck compared to lucid dreaming.)

You might have one already but how about setting up a regeim or training journal. I've been looking into dreams for about a year now, and I must say over the last few months I have been really slack with excersies. But strangely enough i've been having more LD's than ever before. I think this is because although I don't do reality checks or keep my journal I still consciously think about dreaming throughout the day alot. When I set my self up an LD plan I really think thats when my LDing will really take off. Right now I'm having 3-7 LD's a fortnight. But here are some exercises I am going to include that I believe will help my LD's, and I think just believing they will help should play a big part in how they work

1. Keep a dream journal continuously (This is going to be tough, as those people know who find it hard to even lift an arm in the morning)

2. Concentration Exercise (Get a coloured peice of paper and place a black dot in the middle, set aside 20 minutes to continuously focus on the dot and keep the mind clear of thoughts. I know this helps with the brow chakra/3rd eye but I also think this should help in increasing the amount of time you remain lucid for, as it teaches you discipline of thoughts)

3. Meditation and physical exercise

4. Read interesting books and writings about LDing.

Guess what I am trying to say is just take it all back to basics, and get your self into some good habits.

Being new here, I hope I found the right thread to ask my questions. It is going to take me some time to get used to this forum. :)

I thought that a person would eventually outgrown this sleep disorder. If that is supposed to be the case, then I've proven them [researchers] wrong. My dream state is extremely active. So much in fact, that I'm not getting rest I need and my sleep debt is taking its toll on me. For some reason the sleep seems to be extremely active this season. And, mine [sleep] usually occurs only during the Spring months. It has lingered around this time. I have been to I can not count the doctors. I've been to sleep centers. Oh boy...I've been to psychologists, priests, etc.

I have learned how to control them and it helps...sometimes. Not all of the time. Depends on how fast I can catch it. I believe that this is the reason why I keep waking up with headaches...:(

Thank you.

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Originally posted by Seeker
Oh Leo!! *:holyshit:

I truly hope you are mistaken! *My lucidity has also decreased over time. *From 3-4 times a week to once a week with two week dry spells.

Perhaps I am being childish, but I, and I suspect Howetzer as well am not yet ready to give up lucid dreaming.

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You have got that right seeker. I have so much to do. So much I wish to experiance and acomplish!!!!!! I am not ready.

giggles4U ---Welcome to the Forum.
In the Forum's Tutorial section there is a sleeping disorder Topic wich may help. Good luck with that.

Thank you everyone for your input :!:

wow! Iv been having the exact same problem as you howetzer... (im 20 so its probably not age related)

LDing started with me suddenly getting about 2 a night for the first week, then I had an average of 2 a week for like 2 months, but what happened is that I had began to only do things in my lds that I had pre-planned (such as going to work and beating my boss shitless) and all the scenarios that I did when lucid were totally preplanned but usually I wouldn’t be able to get to where I was wanting to go, this made me slowly stop caring about LDing so much until I just stopped having them, I noticed that DV people had stopped posting good lucid dreams which made matters worse because I had nothing to look forward to in LDs (accept sex with any person I wanted but that gets old after awhile) I then just decided to quit LDing because all of my LDs sucked... all I did was run around yelling women’s name so they would appear, this made my LDs more and more like real life (the way I did things in them) and less and less like an amazing dream experience, because of this I slowly became lucid less and less until they just all ended (not a dry spell just a not caring anymore spell) I recently started watching more sci-fi'ish movies and such teaching my mind to accept the impossible easier (I’m also a very logical thinker and often find myself watching educational programs over movies) this made a sudden boost in my normal dreams making them more vivid and deeper storylines, also it made my LDs about 10x better because usually I’m not just at my house anymore but I start somewhere exotic instead :D
so no I don’t believe that LDing dies over time, its more of the fact that you wanting to LD does because LDing eventually just seems as real as normal life itself

so my advice is to get excited about LDing again, its hard to do but it has good rewards :)
the best way to do this for me was to go to places that were out of the ordinary during the day and usually you’ll have dreams about that place or a place like it

[quote]

So pardon my ignorance, but I now stand where?????
Where do I go form here?
And why can't my mind dabble in the broad spectrum of fanatasies of the lucid dream world?



One only needs to review the literatures of the World's High Religions and Spiritual Systems to know what comes next. Every instance of Higher Religion has been able to manifest more than a few Saints and Miracle Workers. And what is a Miracle Worker but one who has acquired the key for making Waking Physical Life as pliable as Dream Life. One does not have to be Jesus Christ. If one takes just a brief look at the World Literatures and Documentations, then it becomes a safe bet that there have been hundreds, or even thousands of Miracle Workers. One would discern the embarrassing Truth, to many, that Christ Himself was perhaps not even of the first magnitude, when one goes over the complete Literature of the Miraculous.

As for myself, I have yet to latch onto that Key myself. Some of my dreams hint at progress. Why, just the other night I was surprised when a rather hefty Old White Haired Guru (looked alot like Neem Karoli Baba who died some 20 years ago) approached me and poured some gold dust into my hand, telling me that that Pure Element would be the core to my next step of development. Maybe that will lead to something.

But I have been impressed with some of the people on this Page, at this Site. Often Spirituality is infected with a sort of competitive machismo... which I would be happy enough to indulge in; however, since I've discerned more than just one or two Dreamers who are having Dreams perhaps higher than my own, it has turned me into an advocate for Humility... I can try to turn it into a humble pie eating contest.

But sooner or later one of us is going to levitate or reshape reality somehow, and it will not prove a Dream Sign but be absolutely real.

I have found that the more I try to not control things the more I seem to have the ability to know I am dreaming. I feel that the Unconcious mind doesn't want you to take it's ability to make it's own reality.

I let my dreams come as they will because they are always more amazing than I could think of. I have great LD's, but I don't like to share the ones I have now. It's very important to me that I keep them private. It's not that I don't trust any of you. I just value my privacy.

I usually have 1 lucid per night and every few nights I can't lucid at all. I went through a dry spell too. It seems we all do. I just cherish knowing I can LD. I feel blessed for it. Whether it was given to me by a higher being or I just had it at birth I will never want to take advantage of my LDing. I love it too much to just let it go.

I feel it is important to come to a mutual understanding of what both your Unconcious Self and you want. You have to compromise together to get what you both want.

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Originally posted by Seeker
Oh Leo!! :holyshit:

I truly hope you are mistaken! My lucidity has also decreased over time. From 3-4 times a week to once a week with two week dry spells.

Perhaps I am being childish, but I, and I suspect Howetzer as well am not yet ready to give up lucid dreaming.

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Hi Seeker,

As I said, Lucid Dreaming is for those who have certain dysfunctions and need remedial work in their Dreaming -- some help from the waking Self in support of the Dreaming Self. Therefore, I suppose there will be a need for Lucid Dreaming in nearly all of us. And when Lucid Dreaming is no longer necessary, then I can only suppose that the remaining dreams will be spectacular enough so that no further consolation will be necessary.

I do wonder sometimes whether many of these Dreamers who frequent this page have ever had a truly wonderful dream that WASN'T lucid. I remember the days before there was 'Lucid Dreams' and people still spoke of having important and vibrant dreams. Take a glance at this online book: http://www.awgp.org/english/books/sleep_dreams.pdf ... it is a product of Indian scholarship, which, to the same extent that it is boring, is complete -- these guys REALLY do their homework, and you can be sure that before they write their own synopsis, that they had completely combed all previous literature, east and west. Well, you will note that our scholar here discusses every form of Trancendental Dream and yet never mentions, not once, the term lucidity, or does he even alude to the concept.

Sooner or later it will happen to everybody. They will let their guard down, and they will think they are awake and simply accept the dream content as real, instead of effectively FALSIFYING IT with their Lucidity, and they will be given an Important BIG DREAM that will be a pivotal point in their Spiritual Lives, and THEN they will know that Lucidity is not the BE ALL and END ALL as they had thought previously... as they think now.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont

I do wonder sometimes whether many of these Dreamers who frequent this page have ever had a truly wonderful dream that WASN'T lucid. I remember the days before there was 'Lucid Dreams' and people still spoke of having important and vibrant dreams.

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Interesting. I do have three of more extremely vivid and meaningful dreams each night, they are truly an adventure. In fact some of them contained content that I am still trying to sort out. Are you saying that this is not the normal condition of all humans?

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Take a glance at this online book: http://www.awgp.org/english/books/sleep_dreams.pdf ... it is a product of Indian scholarship, which, to the same extent that it is boring, is complete -- these guys REALLY do their homework, and you can be sure that before they write their own synopsis, that they had completely combed all previous literature, east and west. Well, you will note that our scholar here discusses every form of Trancendental Dream and yet never mentions, not once, the term lucidity, or does he even alude to the concept.[/b]

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*Added to my list of things to read*

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Sooner or later it will happen to everybody. They will let their guard down, and they will think they are awake and simply accept the dream content as real, instead of effectively FALSIFYING IT with their Lucidity, and they will be given an Important BIG DREAM that will be a pivotal point in their Spiritual Lives, and THEN they will know that Lucidity is not the BE ALL and END ALL as they had thought previously... as they think now.[/b]

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Be all, End all. Hehe, I just enjoy lucid dreaming. I value my non-lucid dreams, probably more highly than I do my lucid dreams, but lucid dreaming is just plain ole fun! Like that piece of fruit you find in the bottom of the yogurt.

I have found however that lately, the line between waking and dreaming reality becomes quite thin for me. Perhaps in a few months or years, it will vanish entirely. I certainly hope so as I do believe we exist independant of reality and that waking and dreaming realities are one and the same, we just choose to segregate them for some reason.

Leo, It is a pleasure to have an cordial and non-confrontational discussion with you on this topic :)

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Originally posted by Seeker


Leo, It is a pleasure to have an cordial and non-confrontational discussion with you on this topic :)

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it is not as though I am not TRYING. You have noticed that I go to a Lucid Dreaming Page to speak of the ultimate obsolescence of Lucid Dreaming -- I'd bring a lemon merange to an apple pie contest.

But, yes, here we are not being so confrontational because you are indeed seeing my point, and in fact offering a demonstration of it -- that as one advances through Lucid Dreaming, the general quality of all Dreaming improves, so that it rather does seem that in effect Lucid Dreaming had acted as a remedial tool or catalyst to Dreamings Evolution.

And, yes, certainly, with you following my point, I will indeed take less resistance from others who will simply think I am contriving to do what it seems most that I love to do, which is to spread hate and discontent for the sheer fun of it ... well, not to that extreme, but I DO enjoy discovering and declaring the weakness of any widely held public opinion which is held in deference of greater proportion than any actual merits that can be found within it. We DO all need to keep thinking, don't we. Particularly, as the Modern World had tossed away all previous Civilization and Tradition, we must be careful, now, as to what we choose to cling to in the future. We cannot afford to build upon sand, what, with some do-able extra mental work, could be built upon rock, that is, foundations of intellectual and moral certainty.

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Originally posted by Howetzer
So many questions and so little answers.
Concerning my topic I would like to think not and it naturally does not seem likely.
BUT!!!! It is something I have to consider.

I will try to summerize the whole process.
I have always been more of a logical thinker and my likes are based around such things. For example I would choose to watch a documentary over a Science fiction film. And so it goes with books, disscusion etc.
Having said that I will explain my concerns about outgrowing lucid dreams.
I used to lucid dream 3 to 4 times a week. My progresss was remarkable. As soon as I herd, read or concieved of an idea I was shure to evolve my lucid dreams to that point.
*I now do not lucid dream! :(
As I looked back through my dream journal, it was like reading a book with a beginning and an END! The entire process of my lucid dreaming experiances took my mind through a process until the point that my lucid dreams were no differant than my waking life.
So I have two theories.
1. I had had reached a point and am unaware of how to navigate any further.
or
2. My mind as how it performs things used LDs as a tool and is now finished with the process.

I would love to here more theories and advice on how I could become lucid agian. And rebuttle of my own ideas as well. Thank you!

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i know it may sound a bit odd but perhaps u got bored of LD, perhaps u got bored of god head, if there was nothing new to do nd u realized that being a master of an entire self made universe, where u could not b harmed, bannish what you will, ur mind may have seen no point in LD nymore, consequently u no longer do, just a theory though

well that was actually the essence of my post if anybody read it :P

I think your absolutely right on it ;)