Training For RL. Possible Flaws?

Alright, so I remember reading in Stephen LaBerge's "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" that lucid dreams can be used to train for real life, and that makes sense to me. Muscle memory, repetition, etc. are all parts of the learning experience. And lucid dreams are just as "real" as "real life," so as far as you know, you are pretty much performing the action the same as you would while awake. So someone who needs time to practice a certain skill has the perfect opportunity to practice in the most favorable environment they can conceive.

But the problem I foresee is the dreamer's... schema's, are they called? Your brain's long list of expectations and causes and effects?

Anyways, I'll give you the example I came up with: I want to get in firefights with DC's (Dream Cops, maybe ;D) because I want to be prepared to survive a firefight if need be, and I doubt I will have the means to practice in RL. I will be practicing taking appropriate cover against the weapons used, acquiring sight pictures with MY weapons, and improving accuracy and combat effectiveness, we can say.

But will I only improve my skills if I have actual knowledge of firearms ballistics and the real mechanics behind a firefight?

Say I'm behind cover, against a wall, and bullets are smacking against the surface next to me. Now if I was some kid who's only knowledge of firearm ballistics is from Call of Duty, then I would think I'm fine, and considering it's a lucid dream, I probably WOULD be fine according to that thinking. But I KNOW that if those bullets really were striking that wall next to me and I had no significant protection, that I should be VERY concerned with ricochets and high-velocity bullet fragments, as those can cause just as fatal damage to me and my freakin' face.

Another example: I'm hiding behind the middle of my car because the SWAT team just shot my tires out and are opening fire on my position. You would think I would be significantly protected because I'm hiding behind a muthafuckin' car. And if it was your dream, and you did, then you WOULD be protected. But I know for a fact that those pigs in armor don't stick to their sidearms, they have standard-issue long-rifles, most likely chambered for a high-velocity 5.56mm round; a round very more than likely to penetrate two measly car doors. Now if I was hiding behind the engine block and was wearing a pair of combat boots, it would be a different story. But you see what I'm getting at.

My point is that I think "training" for the real world CAN work if you do proper research and have a completely un-baised mindset when it comes to your environment. If I'm getting shot at and I'm thinking: "Ah, they'll never hit me, I'm fucking invincible," and you "know" it, then you more than likely will not be struck. On the other hand, we could screw ourselves over like we sometimes do in our nightmares. "Holy shit, I REALLY hope that stalker isn't around this corner"... what do you think is gonna happen...

Just a thought I had. What do you guys think?

I only bring this up because I hope to improve certain skills in dreams that I don't get a chance to practice in RL. Hand-to-hand combat, for example. Now I've never been in a legit fight before. Do you think I'd be able to practice and refine with the knowledge I have of combat as of now? Considering I could be hit, I could miss, I need to connect correctly, etc...

I've always been sceptical of this kind of theory, where you can improve real-life skills in dreams, mainly because it is extremely hard to have a non-egotistical state of mind while within a lucid dream. For example, you brought up hand-to-hand combat. In real life, I have a realtively low chance of winning a fight, because I have no formal training in unarmed martial arts or anything. However, in a dream I always picture myself as a total badass with a zero percent chance of getting scratched. I realize that this kind of thinking can be reversed as you mentioned, but creating a scenario in which a dream character has more skill than you at something is in my opinion impossible. How can you create a realistic entity with your mind who has more knowledge about something than your own mind does? It doesn't make sense to me, but if you can find a way more power to ya.

Now, what might be possible is practicing at independant or passive activities in a lucid dream. For example, if you had a concert or something coming up and you needed to practice your jazz trumpet solo, I think it's absolutely reasonable to be able to emulate a fully functional trumpet and play it in a similar if not identical manner as in real life. Assuming you have a solid understanding of the required key combinations and embouchure to play each note, as well as what should happen when unintended notes are accidentaly played, there is no reason you couldn't practice and experiment while dreaming.

It seems like anti-dream control to me, in a way. Like normally you try to bend the dream to your own will, but here you would be bending the dream to fit the laws and causal nature of the real world. Weird stuff. I might give it a try sometime.

But anyway, that's just my two cents. Don't let anyone else's opinion influence your thinking too much; remember that the dream is what you want it to be, not what I think it should be! ;)

Keep us informed on your findings!

Well this theory certainly does have its flaws. For an extreme example. If i fly a lot in my lucid dreams than I will become better at flying in real life. Obviously that doesn't make a lot of sense. Dreams are so varied and crazy that a lot of times physics isn't the most realistic. But, i do believe you can improve, if only slightly, basic things in real life. Lets take dancing for example. In dreams you are free to express yourself any way you want without any one judging you. You can dance however you feel any maybe you will pick up a couple moves along the way.

It's definitely an interesting idea and one worth trying in my opinion, when I looked at the idea I thought of the same problem occurring so I decided to do some research on it and while I wasn't able to find an answer I did find a very good article about the subject that might interest you Applications of Lucid Dreaming in Sports . Beyond this I see no reason you would not gain some skills in fighting from dreams but I wouldn't expect any miracles, if I had to guess maybe practicing something like martial art forms would be better than actually practicing fighting that's just a thought though.

Quote:

---

How can you create a realistic entity with your mind who has more knowledge about something than your own mind does?

---

That is a very good point and that may, in fact, be the impossible thing. But I'm thinking you could at least make whatever you're up against a challenge at least. Or with the same skills as YOU :o Then, as you progress and learn new things, so might your opponent...

And I wouldn't call it anti-dream control; it's still dream control, you're just keeping waking-life possibilities and laws constant in your world. Or rather, willing them constant. Kind of like how you wish a video-game was more realistic for the sake of keeping things tough and extremely hard. Instead of being able to get shot a thousand times and still be okay, you want to only be able to take a few in certain select areas of your body to test your skills a bit more.

I myself personally have just gotten back into lucid dreaming and haven't become lucid yet. Granted it has only been about a week-ish, so I still may have a ways to go before I can create an environment with enough stability to test my theory. But I encourage you guys to try it! Hell, it really isn't MY anything, I just had some thoughts on it :P

I kinda feel like dream rehearsal would be good for doing literally that: Rehearsing. I read an article or book somewhere that mentioned a doctor that used LDing to help improve his technical skill and general understanding of medicine so that he could advance quicker in real life. I’ll have to do more research on if it’s true or not, but the idea seems pretty sound to me. The more you do something, the stronger the neural pathways get and the smoother the rehearsal should be when you actually do it. I do feel like dream rehearsal would be great for practicing technique and honing skills that you already know, mental and, to a degree, perhaps physical as well.

For example: martial arts. I do believe that you can spend time in a dream practicing the different forms, working on correct posture, flow, movement, etc …. Practice is learning, and if you can recall what you learned while practicing lucid, I see no reason why that information wouldn’t help improve physical practice, technique, and understanding. Learning and practice is still learning and practice, regardless if it’s in the dream or not.

Where I think the limits are, however, is in coordinating what you know and practice mentally in the dream with how the body will react to/with it in real life. For example, you can practice and master proper form of a front jump kick in the dream, but if your physical body isn’t capable of performing it, it’s all just information on standby until you have a body in which the knowledge can be applicable.

As to your question regarding rehearsals of fire fights based only on prior knowledge … well, that’s difficult. Speaking as a soldier currently serving in the army, physical rehearsal is a must for survival, but I’d be lying if I said that I didn’t practice every single movement, rule, nuance, and desired reaction in my head a million and one times in preparation for physically doing it, and I feel like dream rehearsal is similar to that. It does help a little, in my opinion, but only in smoothing what I think instinctually I should do (should being the operant word here).

But really, when crap hits the fan and you’re in the thick of it, it’s hard to tell what you’ll really do, especially if you’ve only had mental rehearsals. The mentality becomes different when it’s real, and the way your body reacts may not be what you’re expecting or what you’re prepared to deal with. In the event though, that you’ve been in situations like that, have complete understanding of your body and the way it reacts to danger in real life, and have had good physical training for it, then maybe. I think dream rehearsal could help you hone your technique. I don’t think that it can build safe guards for survival. Not very well anyway.

Again, this is all my opinion on the matter, but something to think about :]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaze

I kinda feel like dream rehearsal would be good for doing literally that: Rehearsing. I read an article or book somewhere that mentioned a doctor that used LDing to help improve his technical skill and general understanding of medicine so that he could advance quicker in real life. I’ll have to do more research on if it’s true or not, but the idea seems pretty sound to me. The more you do something, the stronger the neural pathways get and the smoother the rehearsal should be when you actually do it. I do feel like dream rehearsal would be great for practicing technique and honing skills that you already know, mental and, to a degree, perhaps physical as well.

For example: martial arts. I do believe that you can spend time in a dream practicing the different forms, working on correct posture, flow, movement, etc …. Practice is learning, and if you can recall what you learned while practicing lucid, I see no reason why that information wouldn’t help improve physical practice, technique, and understanding. Learning and practice is still learning and practice, regardless if it’s in the dream or not.

Where I think the limits are, however, is in coordinating what you know and practice mentally in the dream with how the body will react to/with it in real life. For example, you can practice and master proper form of a front jump kick in the dream, but if your physical body isn’t capable of performing it, it’s all just information on standby until you have a body in which the knowledge can be applicable.

As to your question regarding rehearsals of fire fights based only on prior knowledge … well, that’s difficult. Speaking as a soldier currently serving in the army, physical rehearsal is a must for survival, but I’d be lying if I said that I didn’t practice every single movement, rule, nuance, and desired reaction in my head a million and one times in preparation for physically doing it, and I feel like dream rehearsal is similar to that. It does help a little, in my opinion, but only in smoothing what I think instinctually I should do (should being the operant word here).

But really, when crap hits the fan and you’re in the thick of it, it’s hard to tell what you’ll really do, especially if you’ve only had mental rehearsals. The mentality becomes different when it’s real, and the way your body reacts may not be what you’re expecting or what you’re prepared to deal with. In the event though, that you’ve been in situations like that, have complete understanding of your body and the way it reacts to danger in real life, and have had good physical training for it, then maybe. I think dream rehearsal could help you hone your technique. I don’t think that it can build safe guards for survival. Not very well anyway.

Again, this is all my opinion on the matter, but something to think about :]

---

Your take on "rehearsal" is exactly what I'm talking about. Learning and practice IS still learning and practice. And you provided some valuable input, you serving and all.

Quote:

---

The mentality becomes different when it’s real, and the way your body reacts may not be what you’re expecting or what you’re prepared to deal with. In the event though, that you’ve been in situations like that, have complete understanding of your body and the way it reacts to danger in real life, and have had good physical training for it, then maybe. I think dream rehearsal could help you hone your technique.

---

Now THIS in particular is what I'm talking about. Now I'm not planning on actually using LDing as my one and only training device for survival, but if you were to create dreams where pain and possibly death would be the consequences of fucking up, then I think you could use dreams as a kind of "simulator" for firefights, melees, disasters etc.. At least you have been in the situation before, albeit in a dream. You have reacted to those particular circumstances already and may have a ROUGH guide for survival.

I just find it fascinating that you could even cultivate such circumstances in the first place, all in your mind. Panic is the enemy when it comes to ANY life-threatening situations, but if you've circumvented even "dream death" in the same situation before, maybe it would give you a little foundation to go off of.

I need to start becoming lucid already... :P

I stepped around that, by asking, "am I in a dream, can I do whatever I want?" Then the dream replied, "yes". So, I did what I like. Although, I prefer to use Lucid Dreaming as a means to improve my waking life, and have tweaked my personality many times.