Definition of a lucid dream revisited

So when I came here, people would often reply that what makes a lucid dream a lucid dream is whether or not you know you are dreaming, and that's it. No minimum requirement for awareness. If you knew it is a dream, you were lucid.

Then someone, I think it might have been Sageous, started a thread questioning that, and saying, that actually one can have a false lucid, where one dreams about knowing that it is a dream, but there is no awareness, and one is not actually present in the dream, and recalls it just as a memory, and that that is not really a lucid.

So I have been thinking about it some more recently. See I had this nightmare the other day. I realized that what was happening could not be happening in waking life. I was aware/conscious and I was present. However, when I did my reality check, it failed, and so I concluded that I was awake. However, I continued to be aware enough to see that things were happening that could not happen, so I concluded that I must be going completely crazy. I panicked. I was very much there, I do not just recall this dream as a distant memory, I remember experiencing it in real time in the present moment, and analyzing my situation, and being aware that things were not as they should be.

At first I thought: I concluded it is not a dream, therefore this was not a lucid dream. However, we say that awareness can be limited in a lucid dream, that one can have some false logic or reach some wrong conclusions. So is this one mistake, concluding that it is not a dream, truly what makes a dream a non-lucid. If one is aware of what is happening in the present moment, is analyzing the situation as it is happening, and one is aware enough to conclude that what is happening cannot or should not be happening, would this really be a non-lucid dream only because of that one false conclusion that this is not a dream after an RC fail.

If we say that it is possible to have a false lucid dream during which one dreams that one is lucid but there is no awareness, aren't we saying that awareness is really what differentiates a lucid from a non-lucid, and not the "this is a dream", and if so could a dream with awareness but without the "this is a dream" conclusion be classified as technically a lucid dream - though a low level lucid of course?

Qualitatively this dream felt more like a lucid than like a non lucid is what I am saying I guess. Even though I had concluded erroneously that I was awake, but I was the dreamer and not the dreamed.

I don't think the definition of lucid dreaming is that you're aware that you are dreaming, simply that you are consciously aware - at some level - within the dream. And if it isn't, then it should be. What you described was definitely a lucid dream, you just had a very low awareness so you weren't able to piece together at a logical level that you were within a dream.

So yep, I totally agree with you.

I don't think a change in the definition is necessary. Very similar to how we don't have to change the definition of awakening because of the existence of false-awakenings.
Imagine false-lucids like dreams about Inception. Except in these dreams instead of Leonardo DiCaprio being the main character an avatar of you is. In this dream you're watching your character run around, hopping into other peoples dreams and "becoming lucid" in them. Of course you're not actually becoming lucid, you're just watching a madman that kinda looks like you run around in your dreams claiming he is lucid without actually understanding what that means.
Under this circumstance, I think you would agree, the definition of lucid dreaming would not need to be changed because the individual is clearly not becoming lucid, no is he contradicting the definition of lucid.

TranquilityTrip, I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I do not deny that people who thoughtlessly watch a movie like dream of themselves as lucid, are in a false lucid. I completely agree that false lucids are non lucid.

However, what I am questioning now is whether one needs to recognize that one is dreaming to be lucid. If one has a dream in which one is conscious, aware, and present, but falsely concludes that it is not a dream, I am questioning whether that is really a non lucid. It feels more like a lucid, a very low level lucid, but still.

I think the original definition of a lucid focuses too much on the "this is a dream" conclusion, whereas my argument here is that it should be about self awareness. Thus, if one is aware and conscious, but fails to correctly identify dream state, I am thinking that that experience is more like a lucid than like a non lucid.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

TranquilityTrip, I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I do not deny that people who thoughtlessly watch a movie like dream of themselves as lucid, are in a false lucid. I completely agree that false lucids are non lucid.

However, what I am questioning now is whether one needs to recognize that one is dreaming to be lucid. If one has a dream in which one is conscious, aware, and present, but falsely concludes that it is not a dream, I am questioning whether that is really a non lucid. It feels more like a lucid, a very low level lucid, but still.

I think the original definition of a lucid focuses too much on the "this is a dream" conclusion, whereas my argument here is that it should be about self awareness. Thus, if one is aware and conscious, but fails to correctly identify dream state, I am thinking that that experience is more like a lucid than like a non lucid.

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Oh I see. Well, even so, I don't necessarily think that is the case. But I guess that's where your argument is arising from. In my mind you can be aware of your surroundings, be in control of your actions, and be conscious of your existence without being lucid. Most of my dreams have been like this in fact. For example, I could be fighting zombies in a hospital. In this case I am aware of my location, my current state (as opposed to being a zombie), and the current threats posed against me (zombies). But I am not lucid and I am not on the threshold of becoming lucid either.