Unconscious security system?

Hello again everyone! :biggrin:
Not the most frequent poster, but i feel like when i post it should be somewhat meaningful, and mostly i enjoy myself just reading (lurking) on what others write.
Anyways, the reason i am making this post is, that this is the best possible place to discuss such a matter, and i have the feeling that this not a topic that have been to much talked about, or that is not such a frequent problem to dream-explorers. This may be a little strange post, and it may take some explaining before i get to the actual topic i want to discuss. If you do now want to read the whole thing, you can jump over first section (paragraph?).

I started exploring the concept of lucid dreaming some years ago, the only dream control i could perform before that was trying to make myself dream of a specific subject, by thinking a lot about it before falling asleep.
Soon i found out that this was a difficult subject, but i kept remembering that practicing makes master, and reading that mastery of the dreams does not come over night (oh the pun).
But it has been as i said earlier, several years since this. I have nowhere near given up, but i think that it is time to figure out how to get better.
I have had no big success with methods where i go straight from awake to dreaming, it just takes to long time before i get results, and my mind wanders way to fast. I have started meditating some time ago, so maybe that will help me to quiet down the over active brain, but as of now, WILD is not a solution for me. Of the tens of times i have tried, the only time i "succeeded" i saw a black corridor with a little scary girl and tearing metal sound. If i could manage to get to this again, maybe could get past it, but it is hard just reaching this part of the process.

Then again, i have never had any problem achieving lucidity. DILD have always been my answer, but this is also where things gets weird (at least for me).
In the beginning i had super hard to maintaining lucidity, because i would quite frequently achieve it, but not trough reality checks, but realization. I would always either have a false awakening, an actual awakening (after i started using reality checks), or just slipping away into non-lucidity again. My "first time" was my most successful, since i teleported, created stuff and rooms. But after this i have not even achieved this, before being cut of from my dream.
So i am starting to ask myself, is my unconsciousness trying to work against my consciousness here?

Because, i have for a long time had a bigger plan with lucid-dreaming, other than just messing around in my dream, but i won't say it just yet (in case yourself will trigger some security system).
First it started with a kind of perfection of my dreams, it was like every now and then my unconsciousness released a bug-fix and it became more and more realistic. In my dreams, i have working light-switches, computers (even internet) and working phones among other thing. I don't know how "perfect" these really are, but the certainly have evolved a lot since i started "remembering" dreams, and trying to achieve lucidity. And it is just like the dream actively try to remove things that will make me realize that i am dreaming. (Like mirrors and such).

Its like i am having a super hard time maintaining lucidity as i said before, because i "wake up" so easily. So often, in the moment of realization, its like a wake-up timer starts, and most times i can't do a thing before waking up. Like yesterday i realized i was dreaming, when i was watching a girl smoking inside our living-room (not that unlikely event?), but before i could anchor the dream, everything went black, and when i tried to see again i just opened my eyes for real (yes i reality checked).

And i had the strangest realization the other day, i don't know if i was in a station, or if i got teleported there after realization, but as i realized i was dreaming i sat on a bench in a empty, underground-train-station, with the classic white brick walls. By my side it sat a man. I told him "I know i am dreaming", he replied "No, you are not", i was a hundred percent sure (because you just know) and said "Yes i am, i know it", then he said "How could you? you don't have any evidence or proof of it". Well, the fact that a completely random and unknown man said this should make i obvious enough, but it raised the question. Why would he say this? Was this just a random dream-person, or maybe the unconscious itself personified?

And i know that it is not supposed to be "easy", but i have a friend who started under a year ago, and he is having full blown lucid experiences from the same techniques i have tried and without the problem of dream anchoring being as difficult as finding a needle in a barn full of hay..

Maybe this is normal, maybe everyone experiences it (or many), i don't think so, but maybe, and that is why i post this here.
I realize its stupid, and maybe VERY unwise to talk about the unconsciousness and the dream like it isn't just a big part of me as the consciousness, but its a process of realization, and i am not quite "one" with myself just yet.

If you read it all, take a cookie. :lol:
I am sorry if the language is messy, that part of the brain is not the most cooperative just now, but i hope you understand and that you could share some views on this matter. :)

- Ophidian :meditate:

Ophidian, yes, it is quite common for DCs to try to persuade the dreamer that you are not dreaming. I once had a lucid during which my father and I had a long debate during which he argued that I am not dreaming, but if it is a dream why is it not his dream?

I think the instinct to believe that everything we experience is waking reality is so strong within us, that this is why it takes so much effort to learn lucid dreaming and our subconscious questions the idea even then. It takes a complete change of mindset to expect reality to be a dream and to expect that one can be conscious in it.

The idea that the instinct to believe everything is waking is a security system of sort actually is close to something that has occurred to me also. My thinking is that the reason why lucid dreaming does not come naturally to most of us and takes a lot of effort may have to do with that when lucid we have access to the source code programming of our personality in my opinion. One can reprogram oneself. One can do that to some extent when waking, but I think lucid dreaming gives one more direct access. What do I mean by reprogramming oneself? One can get rid of unwanted personality traits and change them, get rid of phobias, change from being a conservative to a liberal (I did that in part with lucid dreaming 20 years ago), get rid of periodic depression (I think I hope - this is actually my long term goal for perusing lucid dreaming again). Basically I believe one can make oneself into a different person, and this can be done when awake to some extent with expectations and intensions and self talk and goal setting and mantras etc, but I think lucid dreaming makes this easier.

So my theory for why lucid dreaming does not come naturally to most of us is because it has the potential to be one of the most powerful tools for mind work that one can use, and it should be used cautiously. We say that lucid dreaming is harmless to most newbies, and in a way that is true, but if you look at it another way it has mind blowing potentials.

I know, that is what makes it so interesting! The amount of possibilities are endless, but i think maybe this is a reason its harder for certain people. People who has a mindset like that because i have always wondered, why do people only goof around in their dreams, when there is many more possibilities? I am in no way judging they who does, i like to do it myself, and it is up to each person what to do with their dream experience, but how could someone not see the potential?

But maybe our mind does not want the access to our source code to be something easily acquired, and of course it knows our intentions because, it is us.
Therefor i think this may be a reason for the difficulties some are having, but i have no way of knowing this. Its only a theory, but it feels like it to me. Of course there are probably many more reasons that can affect the difficulties of having / maintaining lucidity.

I certainly look forward to the day i have mastered the technique of lucid dreaming, so that i can embark upon a new quest into the unconscious.
The only thing in my mind that i think may be disrupting about lucid dreaming is, and this is only a theory too, but maybe that we go against nature in a way. I am a one of the persons that think the unconscious is as much a part of us as the conscious. Which means that dreams might be the language between these two parts of one self. Could maybe lucid dreaming disrupt this communication in any way?

I don't know, and i don't know if any of these questions have been answered before. But something you just have to find out for yourself.
In any case, i see dreams, and all that comes with it as a very interesting thing, that i feel we (at least myself) know way to little about.

Personally I value the job that my subconscious does greatly. I am big into dream interpretation, and find the mind's problem solving process in nonlucid dreams to be fascinating. However, I do not fear disrupting its job through lucid dreaming. First of all, I believe that if needed the subconscious will find a way: if one does not dream of something one night, the next night one shall if it is still on our subconscious to do list, so a night of lucid dreaming will not disrupt the purpose. Second, even in lucid dreams the subconscious is at play: we do not control all dream elements and other dream characters in lucid dreams. Third, I think both dream interpretation and lucid dreaming in different ways provide one opportunities for the conscious and subconscious to work better together if that is what one seeks - one can question the subconscious in lucid dreams to better understand what is on one's mind, and similarly through dream interpretation one can gain conscious insights of subconscious at work. I think that ultimately the results can be even better if conscious and subconscious mind collaborate.

Now does this mean that lucid dreaming cannot disrupt subconscious problem solving? I think for some people it may. People who lucid dream every night, and are big into control and less into self awareness, and who always override the subconscious - yes, maybe those people may loose out on some creative problem solving. However, for most lucid dreamers, I think our interference with subconscious is not big enough to make a big difference.

Well, i can agree with your logic, really everything you says makes sense. Seems like you have quite a knowledge of the field :) I will not pose as i have any, because i have not. I have just begun reading about psychology (Reading a book by Jung right now), and really hope it can lead me to a better understanding of the subject even if it doesn't specifically concern lucid-dreaming (i don't know).
I didn't mean it like i think its disrupting my "communication", because i have quite a majority of non-lucid dreams. But i was more thinking about someone who has almost exclusively lucid-dreams (don't even know if its possible).
I carry a great belief in dream interpretation, or analyzing, but i wonder, is it possible to just "contact" the unconscious trough a lucid-dream to get the information in "clear-text"?

Questions like this is some of the reason i am so eager to master lucid dreams (at least to some extent) so i can figure out the answer for myself.

Oh you can contact your subconscious in a lucid dream, but this may or may not result in "clear text" answers. The subconscious is perfectly capable of being cryptic in lucid dreams as well. Though sometimes it may choose not to be. :)

As for whether it is possible to have almost exclusively lucid dreams? Yes, it is, but there are few people who do that. Among them are some Tibetan monks who have perfected dream yoga, and they say that they can remain conscious even in NREM sleep. Now I think this is a very rare level of advanced lucid dreaming, and whether people who are that advanced have any issues due to not letting their subconscious have enough free time for creating problem solving, I do not know for sure actually. But my best guess is that it depends on the person, how many issues they have that need the kind of resolution that the subconscious can provide, and how in tune they are with their subconscious otherwise. The plus side is that lucid dream practice tends to improve self awareness, and so hopefully that makes up for any loss due to less subconscious problem solving time. Anyway personally, I would be happy to continue having nonlucid dreams along with lucid, but I want more lucids than I have now - I am nowhere close to being in danger of not having any nonlucids. :) oh, and people who are advanced lucid dreamers generally ought to have enough control to also let go of some control if needed, so I suspect it would not be a big issue for even those people.

Yeah, the two first times i kinda realized(and yet the only ones) that i was dreaming I woke up or false awoken. It's kinda stupid, but i guess that's the beginning of everything. You start from nothing , then you get a little bit , and then you progress.

But basically i can't do a think after i realize its a dream, it just goes black / or i wake up. Do you guys have any useful tips?

Well, it's been a while and this problem persists.
Some days ago i had a dream in which i was conscious of that i was dreaming, in the dream my father sat in a couch in our living-room.
I think i tried to anchor the dream, or do a reality check, when he stood up and came up to me. He said "You are not dreaming". I of course said "I know i am", well, he then gave me a gun and asked me to shoot him. I could not do it, because, what if it was not a dream and i had just shot my father. He also asked me to try and shoot myself, because if i was dreaming there should not be anything to be afraid of.
In later time it seemed obvious that in real life my father would never ask such a thing from me, but in the dream i was unable to figure this out. Just wondering what the next thing will be, now that i know how ho "handle" this.

Anyone experienced something similar?

Well a great realization just came to me as i was re-reading JoannaB's first reply. I think this maybe(?) is a "message" from my unconscious, to tell me to open up.
Lately I've had a great debate with myself about the belief in theories going against the "mainstream" science-based belief of things (at least in my country), where everything has to be supported up by "logic".
Like paranormal / supernatural things (know this maybe is a great generalization), but i can't help but feeling sceptical to scam-artists / con-men that probably sees this as a great marked for tricking people. Not to talk about delusional or straight out mad people, how to know where to put the line?
I have always seen myself as open-minded, but maybe i have closed myself up more than i realize during these last few years..

I too feel like there is a certain security system trying to keep me from lucidity. In a lucid dream I've had I overheard 2 DC saying that it was time for me to wake up and so i went up to them and managed to ask one last question and then i woke.

In another dream I became lucid and the dream ended immediately, i remained still and entered another dream where i was in a dinning table with some random DC and i was acting like i didnt know what was going on like i wasnt lucid but i was and so i whispered to a girl DC next to me that i knew this was a dream and immediately the dream collapsed.

as well as many other cases of attaining lucidity to instantly black out and wake up.

Hi I've had my share of problems too. Maybe you're at the end of your REM so you'd wake up no matter what you did since you're DILDing?

"So i am starting to ask myself, is my unconsciousness trying to work against my consciousness here?"
I call it the subconscious. In a self hypnosis book I read (and believe in based on experience/science) it says to never think of your subc as an enemy. You don't want to fight it you just have to learn how to change it the way it has to be changed, even small changes at the subc level can create big changes.
"Because, i have for a long time had a bigger plan with lucid-dreaming, other than just messing around in my dream, but i won't say it just yet (in case yourself will trigger some security system)."
Some conscious goals go against subc 'beliefs' so I'd recommend keeping things simple at first just to practice making your LDs longer. While you're awake make a list of things you want to do and think about each one and notice if it makes you feel uncomfortable etc maybe visualize doing them too and see if you notice any potential problems.
I think "subconscious resistance" can be a problem in LDing just like in self hypnosis, e.g. during my LD I wanted to fly but apparently my subc didn't like that idea since I went from a very detailed stable dream to being completely distracted by my car that had its headlights on and was going to wear down the battery. I actually forgot I was dreaming :|. When I was young I climbed high into trees etc but now that I'm older I have too much to lose so even though I knew I was safe consciously that happened. Maybe you'll end up using self hypnosis first for some changes and then LDing for some.

"the only time i "succeeded" i saw a black corridor with a little scary girl and tearing metal sound. If i could manage to get to this again, maybe could get past it, but it is hard just reaching this part of the process."
During my early LD days a scary ghost appeared and it made me angry because I'd worked hard to have a LD and I thought my subc was trying to scare me out of it, so I said "max strength" from the game "crysis" and I ran up and punched it and it disappeared. But maybe the subc knew I'd get angry and do that, so it doesn't pay to guess too much. Another time at the start of a LD everything looked wispy and I got angry and yelled "this is my dream!" and before my eyes everything turned into a perfect copy of my granny's house. Hopefully that will work for you.

""I told him "I know i am dreaming", he replied "No, you are not" ..."
Maybe it was the subc and if so it could've had more than one reason for saying that. In the hyp book I read that in all his years of research he's never 'met' a subc that lies (bit more to it). After talking to my subconscious (? or an imposter :P) during a LD I did some autoquestioning another time (a way to get answers directly from the subc), I asked "Have I ever talked to my subc during a LD", I got a "no." WTF? I asked more questions and eventually figured out that I never "talked" since I'm not using a voice box etc while I'm LDing. I got a "yes" when I asked similar questions to the first but with "communicated with" instead of "talked."
So maybe your subc just likes precise wording etc, YOU weren't dreaming you were 'lucid dreaming', or you were conscious so it doesn't consider that 'real dreaming'. Then there's the fun fact that the subc can believe 2 or more contradictory things at the same time.

I'm just getting back into LDing again, I hope the WBTB + MILD still works, or the DILDs I'd get after going for 30 minute walks and paying attention to all of my senses the entire time like "billybob" talked about in one of his posts. Maybe it was part of his "dream yoga" post.

P.S. The imposter... In one LD I thought I talked to my subconscious but after I was done with him I talked to another DC and she said "that wasn't the subc, that was the guy that makes floors."

Wow - this is one of the most interesting threads, I came across.
What comes to my mind first it the following thread:

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post2071678

I find this post makes loads of sense:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Evolution, the brute-force algorithm that has begotten us this far. And the environment our ancestors grew up in.

Think back to the first organism that had the mutation in the nervous system that allowed it to have full-blown hallucinations during the dark hours of the night coupled with muscle atonia to keep it from falling out of the tree. It would unconsciously dream about things that threatened its survival. And every now and then, after repeating the same nightmare all night, night after night, it would come up with a unique way to survive a threat. The next time the troop encounters said threat, it would have a greater chance of escaping and surviving and having more offspring with the same mutation.

Therefore we all dream.

Enter the lucid dreamer in that environment. It feels for the poor unenlightened souls who whimper at night and have no control over their dreams and tries in vain to teach them they can simply fly away or beam a bright light to overcome their nightmares. And promptly gets eaten because that doesn't work out so well when the threat is encountered during the day and it doesn't survive long enough to reproduce and pass the light on to us.

Therefore lucidity is an ability that can only begin to emerge now that we have full command over our environment and the amount of data in our unconscious mind has surpassed the level where randomly merging emotionally charged memories outweighs consciously directing which areas of knowledge deserve the highest priority on a given evening.

---

So - it might be that there is something to learn and practise to a "higher" level still.
If I had to suck something out of my fingers - maybe we should rather not expect to be single-mindedly able to calm a huge angry mob with weapons from the neighbour tribe - ready to club you dead for real - whatever.

Yes - I meanwhile imagine there indeed being purpose-directed hindrances coming up - to the benefit of learning or practising what the unconscious has on the menu for you.
And not just play zombie killer...

And I am very interested in psychology as well - but more in things like CBT - see this link:
Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reprogramming the unconscious directly is the wildest dream in the field - not just this specific method - isn't it?
Besides exploring and analysing yourself - if you are so inclined.

Not a fan of psychoanalysis - at least not for people who suffer from real problems and need solutions rather fast.
To change yourself without huge amounts of willpower and tediously following psychological methods - that truly is a dream.

To bring a hardcore argument - for example change your eating behaviour and loose weight and keep it down - not die of obesity and it's "side-effects".
But also for all others with "problems light" - there are a thousand traits and problem any and everybody has noticed in themselves, that they would rather change.
If that were easy - really easy - maybe most would not be doing it in a sensible way.
This old question again.

To do it connected to psychologically versed coaches - the possibilities are simply staggering.
Definitively!

I wonder, if people really did this systematically and managed to use it as specifically and to greater effect than hypnosis?

I have said it somewhere else - I think, I want to use LD for - also such - real-life purposes.
Otherwise after having played myself out and learned as much as possible in terms of messing with my dreams - I am rather after semi-lucids - where I can surprise myself and go with the flow - and just eventually mess with it.