Have you ever tried being polite to your subconscious or expressing gratitude?

I had three our four lucid dreams this morning (a huge jump in progress, as I've barely been having any for almost a year).

The first one, I stated out loud that I was dreaming when I became lucid. Everything suddenly seemed very still and all the DCs around me just looked at me Inception-style like 'Wtf no you're not allowed, gtfo' and then I woke up very abruptly. It was like my subconscious kicked me out of the dream almost automatically lol.

The second one, when I became lucid I wanted to find my dream tool that I designed recently. I've designed other tools in the past and tried looking for them/trying to make them materialize out of nowhere and some other techniques with little success. This time, I decided to try asking for my "Lune Key" as I call it. I've asked for/stated I wanted things before in the past. Again, with little success. So, this time I used the word "please" when I asked out loud to no DC in particular. I was also extremely thankful to be lucid, though I did not state that out loud. Well, wouldn't you know it, one of the people in the room reached into their pocket and pulled out my Lune Key!

The third dream I can't recall as well, but I was asking the DC's I was with questions like what they represented and what the stairs we were walking up meant. I guess I kind of expected that they were sure to cooperate with me since they did in the last dream, and I carried that feeling of gratitude with me in this dream also. I have never really had any luck in the past using DC's as a way to communicate with my subconscious, I almost always got stupid answers that made no sense. It was so awesome to finally get some cooperation and feel like I'm finally making progress again.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever had luck with being polite/grateful? Next time I'm lucid, first thing I'm going to do is yell "THANK YOU!" and see what happens. :movingmrgreen: Anyone else want to try it too?

Yeah, also I would suggest trying to maybe become friends with your subconscious? Don't use it for just lucid dreams, but use it for that and think about it

its the only thing that understands you, can't lie to you, can't tell on you, can't do anything to you, and if your nice to it can be a good friend. :)

I am polite, I have said sorry to my subconscious for yelling at it, but never said please or thank you. :D

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Originally Posted by TwitchLucidity

Yeah, also I would suggest trying to maybe become friends with your subconscious? Don't use it for just lucid dreams, but use it for that and think about it

its the only thing that understands you, can't lie to you, can't tell on you, can't do anything to you, and if your nice to it can be a good friend. :)

I am polite, I have said sorry to my subconscious for yelling at it, but never said please or thank you. :D

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Brilliant idea. I'm definitely going to try that, especially since I love honesty and hate how most people are liars lol.
I just realized while talking to my bff that I guess I've been viewing my subconscious as an enemy/obstacle because of it not cooperating with me. But this time I went at with a different attitude, and got totally different results.
So yeah. Any suggestions for how exactly to make it my friend?

Well, first of all summoning. :D

If its hard, act sad. Subconscious is a gullible thing, hehehehe.

When you do that, before you ask it questions, tell it your sorry for all that time I did not know about you and ignored you.

Then ask it questions, but when you summon it more after that in future LD's, have manners like you suggested. Ask it to go on adventures with you, and things like that. :D

It has to depend on the type of person, but you get at what I am saying here.

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Originally Posted by TwitchLucidity

Well, first of all summoning. :D

If its hard, act sad. Subconscious is a gullible thing, hehehehe.

When you do that, before you ask it questions, tell it your sorry for all that time I did not know about you and ignored you.

Then ask it questions, but when you summon it more after that in future LD's, have manners like you suggested. Ask it to go on adventures with you, and things like that. :D

It has to depend on the type of person, but you get at what I am saying here.

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Haha! Thanks, definitely going to try that, especially apologizing.

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Have you ever tried being polite to your subconscious or expressing gratitude?

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Interesting question!

Well, my mother always said you get more with honey than with vinegar (or something like that), and I guess it would make sense that practicing a little gentility with your DC's will get you farther than screaming dictatorially at them (more in a sec). But there is a problem with all this, or perhaps something to keep in mind when being polite: When communicating with DC's/your unconscious, there is no them.

I assume you understand that when you're trying to communicate with your unconscious, you're trying to communicate with your own mind, right? There is no other entity in there, and certainly no entity that is disinterested in communicating with you or, worse, intent on ignoring you or withholding "secrets." It's all you. Yes, unusual "communications," like using LD'ing to connect directly with your unconscious, can be frustratingly difficult, but not because some entity inside you is holding back on you, but because we are simply not wired for that sort of direct communication.

Okay; now that I got that bit out:

I think you are going to have a lot more success with these communication attempts (and dream control in general) by being polite and gracious to DC's than you will by being demanding or superior. Such success is likely not so much because the DC's appreciate a little civility (being simple units of your dream schema, they actually appreciate nothing at all), but because the general calm that accompanies grace is extremely conducive to getting your entire mind in a "mood" to communicate. In other words, being nice to DC's settles you, and helps to make your consciousness more receptive to the metaphoric input from your unconscious, and vise-verse.

So yes, be nice to your DC's, but remember that you're not being nice to other individuals, but to your self.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Interesting question!

Well, my mother always said you get more with honey than with vinegar (or something like that), and I guess it would make sense that practicing a little gentility with your DC's will get you farther than screaming dictatorially at them (more in a sec). But there is a problem with all this, or perhaps something to keep in mind when being polite: When communicating with DC's/your unconscious, there is no them.

I assume you understand that when you're trying to communicate with your unconscious, you're trying to communicate with your own mind, right? There is no other entity in there, and certainly no entity that is disinterested in communicating with you or, worse, intent on ignoring you or withholding "secrets." It's all you. Yes, unusual "communications," like using LD'ing to connect directly with your unconscious, can be frustratingly difficult, but not because some entity inside you is holding back on you, but because we are simply not wired for that sort of direct communication.

Okay; now that I got that bit out:

I think you are going to have a lot more success with these communication attempts (and dream control in general) by being polite and gracious to DC's than you will by being demanding or superior. Such success is likely not so much because the DC's appreciate a little civility (being simple units of your dream schema, they actually appreciate nothing at all), but because the general calm that accompanies grace is extremely conducive to getting your entire mind in a "mood" to communicate. In other words, being nice to DC's settles you, and helps to make your consciousness more receptive to the metaphoric input from your unconscious, and vise-verse.

So yes, be nice to your DC's, but remember that you're not being nice to other individuals, but to your self.

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Yes, I'm aware that "they" are my own subconscious lol. =] Typically when I try asking my subconscious questions I expect it will come through one of the DC's. Though there have been a couple times I have just gotten an answer out of nowhere.

For some reason though, the majority of time when I become lucid, I sort of in a way forget all the characters are actually me. I tend to usually ignore them or try to get away from them, I don't usually tell them I know I'm dreaming. Not really sure why. But yeah, from now on I'm going to attempt to speak to my DC's nicely and let them know that I know that they are my own mind. XD

Well, sort of.
A couple nights ago I had a lucid dream where a Dream Guide gave me advice on how to stay in the dream, and when I woke up I said "thank you!" out loud several times.

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Originally Posted by Laurelindo

Well, sort of.
A couple nights ago I had a lucid dream where a Dream Guide gave me advice on how to stay in the dream, and when I woke up I said "thank you!" out loud several times.

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Do you remember the advice the guide gave you?

This is an interesting thread. I would like to pitch this idea:

If you want a DC to help you, and all the DCs are yourself, should you not then approach the DC in a manner, that would make yourself inclined to help, if someone in waking reality came to you for help?

Honestly, I feel good with myself when I'm assertive and authoritative with my dream characters. Your unconscious regulates the overwhelming majority of your behavior during you waking life, so being lucid is kind of a payback of the conscious over the unconscious self. Lucidity is in these situations my way of affirmation in the midst of chaotic creation.
Also - in the way I see it - in a lucid dream, as you are creating your own identity (the deterministic reality is for the most part gone), you are given the chance of responding in your way to the heritage that was given to you. Morality, culture, emotion, instinct.... all aspects that your own dream characters represent but you are able to avoid. To me, killing a dream character is not bad, wrong, useless, good, positive....it's an action without any attachments to it. Anthropomorphism can in my view actually be a barrier to lucidity in some cases. In the other hand, I sense that at some point you have to stop rationalizing over your own consciousness and the way consciousness molds consciousness....it's a weird paradox.... I love this quote present in Waking Life:

An assumption develops that you cannot understand life and live life simultaneously. I do not agree entirely. Which is to say I do not exactly disagree. I would say that life understood is life lived.

Too sleepy to see if my post made sense, but interesting topic ^^

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If you want a DC to help you, and all the DCs are yourself, should you not then approach the DC in a manner, that would make yourself inclined to help, if someone in waking reality came to you for help?

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For the sake of your waking reality self? Isn't that like going to a party and study for your exam 3 months from now? It's something good, but why waste your time doing it in this particular reality?

DCs always do what I want them to without asking... if I want them to. Other times I just try to let it do whatever and it acts like normal (just whatever it does in non lucids).

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Originally Posted by Zoth

For the sake of your waking reality self? Isn't that like going to a party and study for your exam 3 months from now? It's something good, but why waste your time doing it in this particular reality?

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Your comment confuses me ... My point is, that if the DCs are yourself, then it seems reasonable that they will respond favourably to the same kind of approach that your consciousness (your "self") would respond favourably to.

Two alternate viewpoints (and I am not sure I fully sucscribe to either, though both hold some appeal):

What if unbeknownst to us we all actually are one being with a consciousness that is fragmented, or at least have some share consciousness?

Or what if the self as one entity is an illusion and each of us actually consists of many separate conscious entities vying for control in kind of a survival of the fittest part of the mind?

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

Or what if the self as one entity is an illusion and each of us actually consists of many separate conscious entities vying for control in kind of a survival of the fittest part of the mind?

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That second hypothesis seems very reasonable to me, as our brains consist of countless cells, which each are living entities in their own right. Maybe consciousness for one person is actually the "collective unconscious" of all the brain cells ...

If that really is the case, then we probably should be looking into "mob control". :cheeky: But seriously, it seems to me that this would require a different kind of approach, than if the consciousness is a singular entity.

I have been thinking of this recently too. I have a plan to express gratitude for lucidity and supplicate the dream for clarity, vividness, and stability, as opposed to just demanding it. Thanks for sharing!

These questions always have the exact same responses.
Dream character's are not of the same type in every dreams, from what I've identified there are two major factors that determines a dream characters type (Focusing particularly on their "free will").
1) Connotations surrounding the dream character.
2) Level of focal awareness spent on dream character.

Essentially when a character is in a low level of focal awareness he will act upon your subconscious expectation of said dream character, as you increase your conscious focus the dream character will shift under your control.
Look at the following graph I quickly drew up.
http://i58.tinypic.com/21ae3d1.png
There are three regions into which most DC's fall. Dc's with high expectation and low focal awareness, mid expectation and mid focal awareness, and low expectation and high focal awareness.

What you will notice is that DC's in the first group are much more life like, they exhibit the free will and behavior of the character they represent. Hence they react well to gratitude and politeness, just like a normal person would. Your brain expects them react that way.
Take the third category of DC and you see the exact opposite. If you are capable of focusing on them, you can control every action they make. Being polite has little use when you control them. They however usually do not seem as lifelike.

If you expect the DC to cooperate then by all means be polite, if you expect him to be in your way, you can try to control him by paying attention to him.
The sweet spot is the second category, because these DC's are easy to control but also exhibit a personality and their own behavior.

More importantly, most people do not even realize the third or second category exists. They resort to being polite to their dream characters, or believing that the DC's truly are their own entities.
The lesson to learn here is to not put all DC's in one boat. As with everything else in a dream they interact heavily with both the conscious and unconscious, as such they vary a lot. A true master of dream control will be able to deal with each DC case by case.

(This seems like we're about to enter in the question of "Why Dream Control fails?" :P)

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1) Connotations surrounding the dream character.
2) Level of focal awareness spent on dream character.

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Connotation: meets mental schema;
Level of focal awareness: replacement of mental schema, or achievement of a new one?*

Aren't 1 and 2 the same thing essentially?´

- In 1) your memories induce expectation of a certain behavior from a dream character. This is essentially what's present in non-lucid dreams.
- In 2), you acknowledge the fact that composes 1), and your rationalization ends up altering your expectations and consequent behavior.

But if it they were to be the same, what makes dream control fail? The most obvious answer would be a trump of connotation over focal awareness, but that way I contradict what I just hypothesized about them being the same....Unless focal awareness (read self-awareness rationalization) was the way you create new mental schemas or at least apply those related to lucid dreaming ("principles of waking life do not necessarily apply").
* We know that mental schemas can remain unchanged even if contradictory information is presented (the seemingly sentient dream character), so that would make sense as to why some dream characters don't follow our rules. It's not that they are generated in a different way, but maybe we simply need to assimilate new information every time we meet one - which with all the baggage that dictates our behavior - would always be prone to fail.

This would possibly explain why even with high lucidity dream control isn't a certainty. Self-awareness as a state still doesn't allow you to bypass the continuous process (because...it's a process) of having to rationalize over an experience that your mental schemas dictate is incoherent. If this makes sense 0o

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Originally Posted by soundofslumber

Do you remember the advice the guide gave you?

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Well, not any details, but I am pretty sure the voice told me that I should try rubbing my hands together, and that I should stay calm and not become too excited. :D

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Originally Posted by Zoth

(This seems like we're about to enter in the question of "Why Dream Control fails?" :P)



Connotation: meets mental schema;
Level of focal awareness: replacement of mental schema, or achievement of a new one?*

Aren't 1 and 2 the same thing essentially?´

- In 1) your memories induce expectation of a certain behavior from a dream character. This is essentially what's present in non-lucid dreams.
- In 2), you acknowledge the fact that composes 1), and your rationalization ends up altering your expectations and consequent behavior.

But if it they were to be the same, what makes dream control fail? The most obvious answer would be a trump of connotation over focal awareness, but that way I contradict what I just hypothesized about them being the same....Unless focal awareness (read self-awareness rationalization) was the way you create new mental schemas or at least apply those related to lucid dreaming ("principles of waking life do not necessarily apply").
* We know that mental schemas can remain unchanged even if contradictory information is presented (the seemingly sentient dream character), so that would make sense as to why some dream characters don't follow our rules. It's not that they are generated in a different way, but maybe we simply need to assimilate new information every time we meet one - which with all the baggage that dictates our behavior - would always be prone to fail.

This would possibly explain why even with high lucidity dream control isn't a certainty. Self-awareness as a state still doesn't allow you to bypass the continuous process (because...it's a process) of having to rationalize over an experience that your mental schemas dictate is incoherent. If this makes sense 0o

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I believe there is a solution to this conundrum. The problem lies in the term expectation itself. We use the word expectation, for both conscious and unconscious expectations. Unconscious expectation are mental schema, while conscious expectation lies closer to intent.

You see, by utilizing dream control, placing DC's into focal awareness; We use intent to steer them, we can witness how we make them perform their actions.
Over time, this process become habitual and we no longer need to place a DC into focal awareness, our mind becomes accustomed to controlling them.

As you can tell, my idea relies on the thought that expectation reacts differently depending on how you use it (I would go as far as saying that it seems that conscious expectation requires a separate but linked pathway to unconscious expectation). It would seem this way, since they feel very different.

Schema seem to take a long time to form and if what you say is right (correct me if I'm interpreting you wrong) about forming an expectation when trying to control a DC, then there must be some way to form it very quickly.
Would it not make more sense, if we could override mental schema, by some more direct method. What especially makes that idea attractive to me is that whenever I try entirely control a DC in a dream, he will lose all his defining factors. If I take over his voice, thoughts and actions he just becomes a puppet.

Ok lost my trail of though, might try again later.

Zoth. I simply love your 100% scientific approach to LDing, I am the same, but I do not have the psychology background you do. :P